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Greece forced to buy arms: MEP

  • 09-05-2010 12:25AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭


    PARIS: France and Germany, while publicly urging Greece to make harsh public spending cuts, bullied its government to confirm billions of euros in arms deals, a leading Euro-MP alleged Friday.

    Franco-German lawmaker Daniel Cohn-Bendit said that Paris and Berlin are seeking to force Prime Minister George Papandreou to spend Greece’s scarce cash on submarines, a fleet of warships, helicopters and war planes.

    story

    Why would they do such a thing?


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,370 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    Quid Pro Quo?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Your link is messed up. I don't know why they'd do that to Greece either - they clearly cannot afford to go on a military hardware buying spree. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 365 ✭✭shofukan


    Bull**** thread methinks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    PressTV
    DailyTimes
    MSN
    FOCUS News
    Jakarta Globe

    don't know if it's true, just posting some links to news articles referencing the claim


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    ITs not that they are being forced to buy arms, its that they are being forced to honour contracts already signed.

    I assume if germany and france allowed them off the damage to their own economy would make an unpopular decision even more unpopular in their own electorates.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Why would they do such a thing?

    I can answer that for the submarines, at any rate.

    They're already built. They were built in Greece by the German-owned Hellenic Shipyards to a German design. The Greek government is in arrears on them(Especially on one boat which they haven't taken delivery of: It failed initial acceptance trials, and by the time the shipyard fixed it, the economic crisis hit and the Greeks aren't paying for it at all). Thyssen, who own the shipyard, want to get rid of it (It's running at a loss), but for whatever reason, they can't do so with the Greek government owing some half a billion in bills.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Confirms the view that the greek people will not benefit from any aid package. Western european banks and major firms will.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,556 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    Let's just be thankful that it's Greece and not us, I think.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Confirms the view that the greek people will not benefit from any aid package. Western european banks and major firms will.

    I hate to say this, but the Greek people aren't really entitled to benefit from any aid package. They benefited from the spending that got their country into the mess it's being bailed out of.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    I hate to say this, but the Greek people aren't really entitled to benefit from any aid package. They benefited from the spending that got their country into the mess it's being bailed out of.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    Let them suffer? what an appalling attitude.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Let them suffer? what an appalling attitude.

    Are you under the impression that "the Greek people" are somehow nothing to do with the Greek government or Greek nation? That Greece gave the money it spent away to some other nation or people?

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Are you under the impression that "the Greek people" are somehow nothing to do with the Greek government or Greek nation? That Greece gave the money it spent away to some other nation or people?

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    Let the people suffer to save banks and investors? I am truly appalled. I doubt even maggie thatcher in her heyday could have been that heartless.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Let the people suffer to save banks and investors? I am truly appalled. I doubt even maggie thatcher in her heyday could have been that heartless.

    This appalling level of incomprehension was what made me initially reluctant to raise the point.

    The Greek people are not suffering because of the bailout, they are suffering because their government spent itself into debt, and what the Greek government spent itself into debt on was the Greek people. The bailout money is not being given to banks and investors, but loaned to the Greek government. Asking that the Greek people benefit directly from the money given to bail out their national debt is stunningly idiotic - you're essentially calling for the Greek government to do exactly as it did before.

    By analogy, you are saying that if money was given to Ireland to bail us out of our problems, it should be spent on the same things that got us into debt in the first place (the public sector, the tax reliefs). You would, apparently, think that was a good idea. And apparently you consider yourself right-wing.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    This appalling level of incomprehension was what made me initially reluctant to raise the point.

    The Greek people are not suffering because of the bailout, they are suffering because their government spent itself into debt, and what the Greek government spent itself into debt on was the Greek people. Therefore, asking that the Greek people benefit directly from the money given to bail out their national debt is stunningly idiotic.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    This perfectly crystallises David McWilliams comment about a bankocracy replacing democracy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    This perfectly crystallises David McWilliams comment about a bankocracy replacing democracy.

    Not if the people demand a balanced budgets!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This perfectly crystallises David McWilliams comment about a bankocracy replacing democracy.

    Possibly - after all, I often think McWilliams has no idea what he's talking about either.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Possibly - after all, I often think McWilliams has no idea what he's talking about either.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    So is it your position that people should suffer to save banks?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    So is it your position that people should suffer to save banks?

    Where that is the choice? No - but that is not the choice in Greece. The Greek government needs to be bailed out because it has over-spent on the Greek people. Giving it more money to spend on the Greek people is not the solution, even if that appears to contradict one of your slogan-level views.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Where that is the choice? No - but that is not the choice in Greece. The Greek government needs to be bailed out because it has over-spent on the Greek people. Giving it more money to spend on the Greek people is not the solution, even if that appears to contradict one of your slogan-level views.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    How about letting the banks that lent to that reckless government at least take some of the pain via a debt renegotiation. Asking stavros and stelios to pay for the bad investments of western european banks is obscene in my book.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    How about letting the banks that lent to that reckless government at least take some of the pain via a debt renegotiation. Asking stavros and stelios to pay for the bad investments of western european banks is obscene in my book.

    Greece could renegotiate its debts, it doesn't want to.

    They have chosen to avail of the EU bailout for them.

    There is a major problem if Greece stands up and says, you were stupid to invest in us, we are worthless to investment bankers.

    How long will their junk rating be in place if they come out with such a statement?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    How about letting the banks that lent to that reckless government at least take some of the pain via a debt renegotiation. Asking stavros and stelios to pay for the bad investments of western european banks is obscene in my book.

    Apart from what thebman has already said, you appear incapable of understanding that what you're asking for is that a government with all the fiscal discipline of a drunken sailor on shore leave should not be required to pay back the debts it has acquired because some of the people it spent that money on may have to get less money as a result.

    You appear to me to be confusing the question of banks recklessly lending to people during the property bubble with the purchase of Greek sovereign debt. The main buyers of sovereign debt are pension funds and similar institutions - you are calling for people who have nothing to do with Greece to take a hit to their pensions in order to bail out a government which systematically lied about its real debt.

    patiently,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Apart from what thebman has already said, you appear incapable of understanding that what you're asking for is that a government with all the fiscal discipline of a drunken sailor on shore leave should not be required to pay back the debts it has acquired because some of the people it spent that money on may have to get less money as a result.

    You appear to me to be confusing the question of banks recklessly lending to people during the property bubble with the purchase of Greek sovereign debt. The main buyers of sovereign debt are pension funds and similar institutions - you are calling for people who have nothing to do with Greece to take a hit to their pensions in order to bail out a government which systematically lied about its real debt.

    patiently,
    Scofflaw

    Treasury bonds are an investment like everything else. If you make a bad investment then tough doo doo in my book. Furthermore how much pain would you see inflicted on the greek people to ensure bondholders get paid?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭sink


    Treasury bonds are an investment like everything else. If you make a bad investment then tough doo doo in my book. Furthermore how much pain would you see inflicted on the greek people to ensure bondholders get paid?

    Do you know what insolvency is?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Treasury bonds are an investment like everything else. If you make a bad investment then tough doo doo in my book. Furthermore how much pain would you see inflicted on the greek people to ensure bondholders get paid?

    How much have they brought on themselves? You're still missing the fundamental point here - the Greeks spent the money on themselves via their government. You apparently feel they should be given more money to spend on themselves - and you're happy if that money is taken from other people's pensions.

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    How much have they brought on themselves? You're still missing the fundamental point here - the Greeks spent the money on themselves via their government. You apparently feel they should be given more money to spend on themselves - and you're happy if that money is taken from other people's pensions.

    regards,
    Scofflaw

    No i argue that investors and speculators should take their share of the pain. They knew Greece was a risky investment but carried on regardless, why should they get bailed out.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 prof_frink_2000


    I'm with Scofflawon on this. Every Greek (over the age of 18) has known about the corruption in their state for the last 20 years they went along with it, just like we went along with our government's induced construction boom. We are now paying the price for 10+ years of FF and the Greeks are paying the price for 40+ years of corruption. Damn right Germany are standing up for their companies. If it were Quinn we'd be demanding they pay Quinn to protect Irish jobs, don't be so naive to believe we won't. In fact the bailout is to protect the 7 billion in greek government debt that is held in this country. Screw the banks really means screw us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,007 ✭✭✭✭thebman


    No i argue that investors and speculators should take their share of the pain. They knew Greece was a risky investment but carried on regardless, why should they get bailed out.

    Its not a bailout to pay back the person you took the loan off.

    That's called loan repayment :rolleyes:

    They didn't know Greece was that bad an investment since Greece was rigging its books.

    The Greeks haven't a leg to stand on. Investors may have been willing to write off some of the debt if the Greek's hadn't lied to get the loans and gain membership of the Euro in the first place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 prof_frink_2000


    thebman wrote: »
    Its not a bailout to pay back the person you took the loan off.

    That's called loan repayment :rolleyes:


    Well Said! :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 391 ✭✭BetterLisbon


    Still waiting for someone to say how much suffering by stavros is 'acceptable' to save banks. Cuts to healthcare?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29 prof_frink_2000


    Greece doesn't need to cut money to its health care to reduce its deficit. The problems in Greece are not like Ireland. If they address the corruption in the public service and with the politicians they they can fix it. There are 20,000 people employed in civil service jobs that don't exist, but still get paid. There is massive failure to pay income tax as the tax auditors are very easily bribed.

    The Greeks can cut their deficit by becoming a proper functioning state, not a third world democracy. This isn't about saving banks over health care, its about Greece finally cleaning up its act. It has blatantly lied to the EU about its deficit for at least the last 11 years. The people of Greece ARE the state and they need to put an end to it. That starts with each and everyone of them fighting corruption. If your family doctor has to be ONLY paid in cash so he doesn't pay tax then they need to fight that. Otherwise they'll loose more than their healthcare - their pensions, their childrens education and more.


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