carbon taxes anybody?

fergus.wheatley

I noticed a huge increase in solar enquiries since the carbon tax as introduced on home heating fuels a week ago. The levels are still very low €50 on a fill of oil, but I was surprised by the impact. Well done Mr. Gormley. Great for Green jobs.

gizmo555

This is the way to go. It follows the "polluter pays" principle and if meaningful carbon taxes are applied, will have a much greater effect in encouraging the adoption of renewables and more importantly reducing energy waste than grants and subsidies.

fergus.wheatley

The grants are/were important to establish the industry. Prices have falled by about 25% from 2-3 years ago, and more importantly the quality of installations has gone up.

gizmo555

fergus.wheatley wrote: »

The grants are/were important to establish the industry.

You're begging the question here of whether it is/was in the public interest to subsidise the establishment of a domestic solar panel industry. After all, the grants don't materialise out of thin air - they come from your taxes and mine. There may be arguments in favour on grounds of providing employement, etc, but on the specific question of reducing carbon emissions, there are much bigger bangs available for the tax buck. For example, it is nothing short of a scandal that the Warmer Homes Scheme, which was set up to provide insulation and other energy efficiency measures to low-income households is still not available in all parts of the country.

fergus.wheatley wrote: »

Prices have falled by about 25% from 2-3 years ago, and more importantly the quality of installations has gone up.

To me, what this indicates is that 2 to 3 years ago suppliers were getting away with swallowing up the grant in inflated prices, but now that we're in a recession, they're having to get real.

PeteHeat

Hi,

I think the gradual increase in oil prices added to the Euro / Dollar exchange rate and the carbon tax has the consumer very concerned about heating costs overall.

One of the differences is the oil price is not based on speculators playing the markets but appears to be with us to stay because it is based on supply and demand.

The peak oil debate appears to be over and we are now starting to live through the consequences, the carbon tax could be a good thing if the funds raised are used to reduce our dependence on imported energy.

The grants served a very good purpose, when they were introduced there was only a few companies in the renewable energy business and there was a lot to be learned.

Without the grants we would not have the number of companies offering the goods and services today or the skilled trades necessary to install the products.

I think the majority of the opportunists have moved on or gone out of business, the consumer is better educated and having seen installations in the homes of families and friends know what the products should be able to do.

The reduction in prices would have more to do with the cost of doing business having fallen, every sector has had to take the cuts to bring us all a step closer getting back to being an economy that can compete.

The manufacturers have also had to trim back though it appears they have prices about as low as they can go, I think with the rising oil costs we can expect the cost of the systems to begin to increase in the next year.

Looking back probably the biggest mistake was not implementing the new building regs sooner, so many houses were built in the past ten years that need insulation upgrades it appears to have been a great opportunity lost.

.

ei.sdraob

fergus.wheatley wrote: »

I noticed a huge increase in solar enquiries since the carbon tax as introduced on home heating fuels a week ago. The levels are still very low €50 on a fill of oil, but I was surprised by the impact. Well done Mr. Gormley. Great for Green jobs.

Its has feck all to do with Greens carbon taxes

and everything to do with

1. grants available for solar for older homes

2. newer homes having to have either solar / geo / pellets / wind, with solar water heaters being the cheapest option in order to comply

gizmo555

PeteHeat wrote: »

The grants served a very good purpose, when they were introduced there was only a few companies in the renewable energy business and there was a lot to be learned.

Without the grants we would not have the number of companies offering the goods and services today or the skilled trades necessary to install the products.

I've no doubt this is entirely true, but like Fergus, you're begging the question of whether it was ever any of the state's business to be grant aiding this business sector, as opposed to say, energy efficient glazing.

Be that as it may, you both seem to agree that the solar industry is on a solid footing now and as the previous poster points out, you have a captive market in new homes who are now obliged to install a renewable energy source. Combined with the carbon tax, the rationale for grant aiding solar panels in the throes of the worst economic crisis we've seen since the Great Depression has well and truly passed - if it ever made sense at all.

PeteHeat wrote: »

The reduction in prices would have more to do with the cost of doing business having fallen, every sector has had to take the cuts to bring us all a step closer getting back to being an economy that can compete.

The manufacturers have also had to trim back though it appears they have prices about as low as they can go, I think with the rising oil costs we can expect the cost of the systems to begin to increase in the next year.

Prices generally have fallen 1% in the three years to March, but Fergus tells us prices for solar systems are down by a quarter in the same period. In that context, you'll forgive me for being cynical when I say I remain convinced system prices were simply being inflated by the amount of the grant.

PeteHeat wrote: »

Looking back probably the biggest mistake was not implementing the new building regs sooner, so many houses were built in the past ten years that need insulation upgrades it appears to have been a great opportunity lost.

I agree totally. To make it worse, this wasn't mere incompetence, but a deliberate policy decision by then Environment Minister Dick Roche, for which householders will be paying the price for decades.

PeteHeat

Hi,

I would be hazarding a guess and probably be miles off the mark trying to give a reason why renewables were chosen for grants, perhaps looking at the progress of our European partners it was evident that with peak oil and climate change high on the agenda as a country we were doing very little ?

The fact that we are in a depression could be a good argument for the grant, everyone wants to cut their heating bills and reduce the countries dependence on imported fuel, when the tax (VAT, PRSI) is taken into account the grants are close if not totally self financing.

Regarding prices the overall drop at 1% would be taking so many factors into account I am not sure I understand how the figure is arrived at, what I do know is trades persons are now calling looking for work and the rates being quoted have dropped at least 25%.

The companies in the business have made adjustments (some substantial) and the businesses are being run much leaner resulting in reduced costs which are passed to the consumer to encourage them to buy.

I can only speak for myself as one of the few who was in the business before the grants our prices did not increase because the grant was available, I have seen a lot of home improvement grant schemes come and go in my time like all the others this one will have its day too and consumers have long memories.

With the rising oil prices, currency exchange rates being uncertain and now the carbon tax we are fast reaching the point where the different technologies will be the norm instead of the exception based purely on consumer demand.

.

quentingargan

PeteHeat wrote: »

I think with the rising oil costs we can expect the cost of the systems to begin to increase in the next year.

There are certain commodity prices also starting to rise. For example, we also have peak copper - an important element of most solar panels. Copper prices will start putting a hit on the price of solar panels. (peak copper anyone?) As the recession bottoms out, energy prices will affect the cost of steel, glass, shipping and so forth. Oh, and if they start printing euros, everything is going to start going up, but already stuff that is priced in dollars is starting to move up in price.

PeteHeat wrote: »

Looking back probably the biggest mistake was not implementing the new building regs sooner, so many houses were built in the past ten years that need insulation upgrades it appears to have been a great opportunity lost..

SEI initially grant aided solar and other renewables on new houses - Glad to see that sort of stuff has moved from the carrot to the stick. Retrofitting is a lot more expensive than doing the job right in the first place, but at least we're keeping some builders at work...