Can a landlord refuse to sign rent allowance for tenant made redundant?

Darlughda

Hi, hoping someone here can let me know where I stand on this:

I am in a houseshare rented via an agency. Living there 6 months.
When we all moved in initially the agency was adamant that there was to be no rent allowance tenants. That was fine with us as we were all working then.

I have been recently made redundant, and in a couple of months my savings will be used up and I will need rent allowance.
My rent is under the limit, but I am afraid of approaching the agency/landlord with the relevant documentation from the community welfare officer for them to sign, in case they refuse to sign in it or worse threated to evict me.

Can anyone tell me if they are legally able to refuse to sign rent allowance as I have been there 6 months, and have always paid rent been a good tenant etc?

tenchi-fan

not sure.
It's his property so I'd say he can decide who to rent it out to.
He is obliged to give you his PPSN and receipts which you could use to claim tax relief on rent. if you're going that far you might as well claim rent allowance.

edellc

sorry to hear about your job....the same thing happened to me last year i was in my apartment for over a year and lost my job when i first moved in my landlord told me that he was not rent allowance acceptable and that i was not allowed to claim rent relief either and when i lost my job i did ask him to sign my rent allowance forms which he refused
the housing person told me he couldnt refuse and they had ways of getting him but i was so worried i would be evicted so i ended up looking for a new place to live even though i didnt want to that was rent allowance acceptable i also kept my last months rent to use as a deposit on the new place
when i told the landlord i was giving notice due to the fact that i was unemployed and no longer able to pay the rent he wasnt very nice about it so the guilt of using the last months rent went away rather quickly i know this isnt the best way to do it but he refused to give me my deposit back as i could only give him three wks notice and not four
the positive is that my old apartment is still for let on daft and that is over two months ago
to answer your question as far as i was told by the community welfare officer he cant refuse to sign your form however in real life they can and do so it looks like you may have to move :mad:

stellarartois

What reasons could a landlord have for not wanting to sign for this? bastards!!

dave1982

You should contact the prtb
its a interesting situation let us know how you get on
http://www.prtb.ie/

ricman

No landlord has to accept rent allowance,and rent allowance has strict financial limits for a single person .IF he doesn,t want ra he should tell you to find new accomodation.
See www.threshold.ie

stellarartois

How does it affect him if he has a tennant on rent allowance?

ricman

IT should not effect him, but some landlords do not take it, 4 many reasons.
ON ra , he has to fill in a long form, with his income, prsi no etc
OR some landlords just want an agent to handle everything.

edellc

he has to pay tax on the income he receives from the rental so if he wont accept rent allowance then he is not registered and what he gets in rent is cash in hand whereas if he is registered then the income is declared and he has to pay tax....there just greedy feckers really when they are not registered

ricman

A lot of landlords dont take rent allowance, i doubt if its anything to do with
tax issues.

dudara

edellc wrote: »

he has to pay tax on the income he receives from the rental so if he wont accept rent allowance then he is not registered and what he gets in rent is cash in hand whereas if he is registered then the income is declared and he has to pay tax....there just greedy feckers really when they are not registered

Not quite true - he may be fully tax compliant, but doesn't want the hassle of dealing with social welfare, or the people he may *perceive* as being typical of social welfare recipients.

edellc

dudara wrote: »

Not quite true - he may be fully tax compliant, but doesn't want the hassle of dealing with social welfare, or the people he may *perceive* as being typical of social welfare recipients.

my be fully tax compliant being the word from my 11 years renting experience in dublin its more to do with cash in hand than dealing with social welfare recipients

AARRRRGH

Im sure that if he knows you and you've been a good tenant then he wont mind signing it. Even if he doesnt like a new tenant starting out on rent allowance.
You;ve already built up a relationship with him, so im sure he'll trust you to pay the difference between what you get in rent allowance and what the rent is.

So dont be afraid to approach him. Better to do it sooner than later because rent allowance will only be paid from the date you apply.

The_Conductor

edellc wrote: »

my be fully tax compliant being the word from my 11 years renting experience in dublin its more to do with cash in hand than dealing with social welfare recipients

This is so far away from the reason most landlords don't take Rent Allowance. The manner in which it was paid was changed some years ago- so where it was previously the case that the RA was paid directly to the landlord- now its paid to the tenant who in turn is supposed to pay the landlord.

Have a look at this forum- you'll find numerous cases of landlords out of pocket because tenants neglected to pay their rent, despite receiving it from DSFA. In some extreme cases it has taken in excess of a year to evict these squatter tenants- despite rulings by the PRTB and often subsequent District Court rulings.

Landlords are rightly worried about whether they will get paid their rent- when the waters have been murkied by the actions of a few bad apples (alongside the difficulties in evicting non-paying tenants).

noodler

edellc wrote: »

he has to pay tax on the income he receives from the rental so if he wont accept rent allowance then he is not registered and what he gets in rent is cash in hand whereas if he is registered then the income is declared and he has to pay tax....there just greedy feckers really when they are not registered

Have to completely agree with this.

dudara wrote: »

Not quite true - he may be fully tax compliant, but doesn't want the hassle of dealing with social welfare, or the people he may *perceive* as being typical of social welfare recipients.

This, is more like the excuse many would use.

athtrasna

noodler wrote: »

Have to completely agree with this.


This, is more like the excuse many would use.

Actually that's a sweeping generalisation. We rent a property out. We are fully registered and tax compliant but don't accept RA. We have our reasons, which are nobody's business but ours. Our house, we choose who we would like to live there.

noodler

athtrasna wrote: »

Actually that's a sweeping generalisation. We rent a property out. We are fully registered and tax compliant but don't accept RA. We have our reasons, which are nobody's business but ours. Our house, we choose who we would like to live there.

Well nobody I hope with that sort of attitude.

I know for a fact that a huge number of landlords take in their cash off the books and that accepting RA would simply ruin this for them.

athtrasna wrote: »

Our house, we choose who we would like to live there.

Check the unemployment rate of the country before you or any landlord makes silly judgements about people on Rent Allowance. Any argument that said people are somehow untrustworthy or are social degenerates or any other silly stereotype you are implying is pretty out of date in the current climate.

Honest to god, 13.4% unemployment rate in the country and you want to pretend the reason you won't accept RA is because these people may not be trustworthy in some manner?

I can, honestly, only be happy at the plight of such landlords if this is their attitude.

littleredspot

I'm a landlord and have no problems accepting people on RA.

However;
1) Rent allowance is paid in arrears, by Dublin City Council anyway, this is a negative and always causes hassle at the start.
2) If there's a problem with the RA cheque coming through, I tend to end up getting involved, talking to the rent support person in co.co. etc. This wouldn't tend to be a issue with non RA tenants.
3) Often the amount that a tenant on RA can officially pay can be less than the going market rate.
4) There is a fairly regular supply of forms to be filled in and the occasional property inspection.

I don't mind all this, as long as I am happy with the tenants. Being a landlord is a job, therefore you have to work at it, yes, there can be more work involved in letting to a tenant on RA, but a good tenant is worth it.

OP, I've always assumed that the only reason landlords wouldn't accept RA is for tax avoidance purposes. In this market there's plenty of nice properties available with decent landlords that would be happy to have your custom, I'd take the oppurtunity to move to one, if the landlord is foolish enough not to sign the forms.

ricman

SAY he can get a tenant easy,well he may think i don,t want ra, theres a,bit more paperwork involved, you may as well say i don,t trust married men.They are ALL having going off and having affairs .ALL flats are supposed to be inspected by the council ,whether you take ra or not.
ON ra you might end up paying 15 euro out of your own pocket approx.Some landlords pay little tax cos the mortgage plus expenses is higher than their rental income.

BostonB

littleredspot wrote: »

...

1) Rent allowance is paid in arrears, by Dublin City Council anyway, this is a negative and always causes hassle at the start. ...

Isn't that a big problem though. You need a deposit incase the tenants breaks the contract and does damage. If the rent is in arrears, that nullifies any deposit.

Rent allowance is up to 3 months late in some places. Why would a landlord sign up for that?

athtrasna

noodler wrote: »

Well nobody I hope with that sort of attitude.

I know for a fact that a huge number of landlords take in their cash off the books and that accepting RA would simply ruin this for them.

Check the unemployment rate of the country before you or any landlord makes silly judgements about people on Rent Allowance. Any argument that said people are somehow untrustworthy or are social degenerates or any other silly stereotype you are implying is pretty out of date in the current climate.

Honest to god, 13.4% unemployment rate in the country and you want to pretend the reason you won't accept RA is because these people may not be trustworthy in some manner?

I can, honestly, only be happy at the plight of such landlords if this is their attitude.

I never said why we don't accept rent allowance so please don't make sweeping generalisations! We certainly don't do anything under the counter..it's all above board and our taxes and PRTB registration are up to date.

I'm not pretending anything. And I have no attitude...we don't accept smokers or pet owners either.

Our house is rented and hasn't been empty for more than two weeks of the last 6 years. It's a great house in a good area with a rent slightly under the average because we value our tenants.

The_Conductor

noodler wrote: »

Have to completely agree with this.
This, is more like the excuse many would use.

Noodler- just google some of the threads here in this forum to see some of the issues with rent allowance tenants.

People are making broad sweeping assumptions about landlords being some sort of evil incarnate- when the fact of the matter is that with the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act and the PRTB- the pendulum has swung vastly in favour of tenants. It can take over a year to evict a non-paying tenant- during which time they can destroy the property- and there have been numerous cases of this happening both reported cases, alongside unreported cases.

This is a generalisation- but most landlords (not all) would be unhappy to accept Rent Allowance tenants- or students- over above a tenant who pays their rent in full, in advance, and who landlords would consider would take good care of their property......

You and others are suggesting that this must mean they are accepting money under the table and must not be tax compliant- which while it may have been the case in a significant number of instances in the past- simply does not hold water these days.

In case you were unaware- there are sections in the Revenue Commissioners who specifically target any high risk individuals (deemed to be those dealing with large amounts of cash in hand). Further- the rent-relief allowed to tenants- means landlords are liable to hit Revenue's radar very rapidly- if they are not compliant- and the implications of non-compliance are so harsh- that its really not worth people's while to take the massive gamble that tax evasion entails.......

Ireland was almost akin to Greece in the manner tax evasion was seen a badge of honour (particularly in the 1970s/1980s) - we have moved on since then, Ireland is a different country by and large. Sure you do have the odd gombeen here and there- but as they get their asses hauled before the courts- the message is getting around, that it simply doesn't pay........

noodler

Landlords had better get real pretty quickly then.

There are an astronomical number of vacant houses in the country and a huge amount of people who are unemployed.

Being unemployed in the current climate shouldn't lead to any inferences about how you would look after the property.

Landlords are only going to see an increase in RA applicants.

BostonB

This is just business common sense. If it doesn't pay you to provide a service (renting to RA tenants) then you'll just stop doing it. Also if the HSE doesn't keep landlords/tenants informed, then who wants the hassle? You can't ignore a tenant being in breech of contract for extended periods. Thats just bad business. The HSE didn't seem all that interested when I asked them about the delay.

I think it varies a lot from area to area, some seem up to date and other seem very behind.

The_Conductor

noodler wrote: »

Landlords are only going to see an increase in RA applicants.

Not necessarily- the RA budget has been chopped, and the guidelines seriously tightened. The current monthly returns being used for the estimates are also subject to an across the board reduction. Rent allowance has been the factor which has kept rents high for so long- if its allowed to fall- as is being proposed- it will simply set a new floor on rent in various locations.

Rent allowance and other entitlements unfortunately are very much in the spotlight in the current estimates.

Darlughda

Many thanks to those who replied with useful advice and suggestions.

So, heres the update.
Finally got hold of my landlord on the phone, he's the elusive type and lives in Northern Ireland, just wants his direct debit coming in every month and that to be that. Kinda reminds me of the old moniker of 'absentee landlord'.
Anyway, he could not have been anymore unhelpful. Didn't have a clue who I was, didn't give a rat's ass about my situation and said one of the main reasons he didn't want RA tenants were all the form filling and waiting time.

Well, I was just disgusted by his attitude. I have been a very good tenant, and I take care of the place and had planned to stay there a couple of years. I spoke to Threshold, (who could not have been more helpful), and the bottom line is THERE IS NO LEGISLATION IN PLACE TO STOP LANDLORDS REFUSING RA TO TENANTS WHO LOSE THEIR JOBS.

Now, I know the difficulties some decent landlords have been facing regarding tenants who are not paying rent have been highlighted on this thread, but quite frankly, that is nothing compared to the potential ramifications this type of lack of legislation has on tenants who are at the mercy of the goodwill of their landlords.

Now, I'm lucky, there is a girl who wants my room, so thats my lease sorted. I am cutting my losses and am going to look for the right place that I can settle in for a few years with a decent landlord. The savings I have left will cover my deposit and couple of months rent until my RA comes through.

Rent Allowance is guaranteed rent. Sure there might be delays, and there is a fair bit of form filling, but a decent tenant and a decent landlord should be a two way thing. I dread to think of what the outcome may be for vulnerable people with dependents for example if they have a landlord like the fell I was renting from.

athtrasna

Darlughda wrote: »

Rent Allowance is guaranteed rent. Sure there might be delays, and there is a fair bit of form filling, but a decent tenant and a decent landlord should be a two way thing.

Firstly I'm glad you've found a solution OP. Fingers crossed things will start to look up for you all round.

Just to correct you, Rent Allowance is NOT guaranteed rent. Not all areas allow for the RA to be paid directly to the landlord. See this thread for just one example of where this can go wrong, for a decent landlord http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055883847

Darlughda

athtrasna wrote: »

Firstly I'm glad you've found a solution OP. Fingers crossed things will start to look up for you all round.

Just to correct you, Rent Allowance is NOT guaranteed rent. Not all areas allow for the RA to be paid directly to the landlord. See this thread for just one example of where this can go wrong, for a decent landlord http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055883847

Thanks Athtrasna, nonetheless I think I am correct in saying that Rent Allowance is guaranteed rent, if you have a trustworthy tenant.

As I stated in my last post, I am aware decent landlords have been caught out by unscrupulous tenants.
However, in vetting people to treat your property like their home, I fail to see why RA tenants would be more likely to be dodgy than other tenants.

D3PO

Darlughda wrote: »

Thanks Athtrasna, nonetheless I think I am correct in saying that Rent Allowance is guaranteed rent, if you have a trustworthy tenant.

that statement is about as logical as a swimming pool made of tissue :rolleyes::rolleyes:

The_Conductor

D3PO wrote: »

that statement is about as logical as a swimming pool made of tissue :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Unfortunately I have to concur.
The issue is that a sizeable minority of Rent Allowance tenants have abused the trust placed in them by the HSE. The total number of tenants who have done this might not be extensive- they have however given many landlords food for thought regarding the scheme.

The issue with additional paperwork is a concern for some. It is additional hassle- and if the property is in a popular enough area- many landlords may feel they simply don't need the hassle (I've personally spent enough time chasing HSE staff on behalf of a neighbour to know what its like).

The reason why some RA tenants might be perceived to be more 'dodgy' than other tenants is solely to do with the way the scheme works.

• Its paid in arrears
• Tenants often take property under the assumption they qualify for RA and subsequently fail to qualify
• It can take 2-3 months to finalise a claim
• The rules governing new claims differ from those already on the scheme
• Landlords are often left 'owed' the rent by the tenant while the claim is being processed- which can build up to a 2-3 month charge being owed. This is then paid to the tenant- not the landlord. In the majority of cases this is fine (providing the landlord can afford to wait the 2-3 months to get paid)- but in several well publicised cases- the tenants have then failed to pay the landlord (often having accrued additional tenancy rights under the 2004 Residential Tenancies Act in the interim- despite not having paid a red cent to the landlord).

With respect of the OPs situation- I would also point out that as his landlord is not tax resident in the Irish Republic, he is legally obliged to deduct witholding tax from any rent due and pay this in advance monthly to the Revenue Commissioners. Its a big problem with non-resident landlords

Graces7

As a reliable tenant on rent allowance I find some of these posts hard to take.

Yes, I fully understand the reasoning and the bad experiences etc.

BUT that to me is no reason for a blanket ban on rent allowance applicants for a tenancy.

Which is what happens.

Here in Donegal there is a rent ceiling of E85 for applicants for RA which makes it very,very hard indeed for eg pensioners to find a decent house.

Our rent is paid by direct debit on time every month. The landlord had one form to fill in and sign.

So glad OP that you have found a solution; when the chips are down you certainly learn who is who...

The_Conductor

Graces7 wrote: »

As a reliable tenant on rent allowance I find some of these posts hard to take.

Yes, I fully understand the reasoning and the bad experiences etc.

BUT that to me is no reason for a blanket ban on rent allowance applicants for a tenancy.

Which is what happens.

Here in Donegal there is a rent ceiling of E85 for applicants for RA which makes it very,very hard indeed for eg pensioners to find a decent house.

Our rent is paid by direct debit on time every month. The landlord had one form to fill in and sign.

So glad OP that you have found a solution; when the chips are down you certainly learn who is who...

Hi Grace-

It is tough- and it is unfair.
The actions of a few have unfairly tarred the many.
Its similar to a few students holding parties in residential property- making it a lot more difficult for all other students to get reasonable accommodation. Even more landlords have a blanket ban on students, that they have on RA tenants......

The vast majority of Rent Allowance tenants are wonderful tenants- the couple of bad apples have ruined things for a lot of these folk though.

Shane

BostonB

From personal experience, the HSE don't keep tenant or landlord informed about anything. If you inquire, my experience they give the impression they don't really want to help anyone. Basically you hit a wall. Can you email me that, no, can you give me the office number, no, can you give me the name of the person dealing with it, no. Etc etc. Thats before you get any issues or not with the tenant.

BostonB

Graces7 wrote: »

...
BUT that to me is no reason for a blanket ban on rent allowance applicants for a tenancy. ...

Well of course it is. You get a bad meal in a restaurant, how many times would you go back.

A lot of this could be improved if HSE managed it better.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

Well of course it is. You get a bad meal in a restaurant, how many times would you go back.

A lot of this could be improved if HSE managed it better.

That is an invalid comparison and really quite insulting?

We are people, not meat and potatoes. With needs for a roof over our heads.

When we needed a house last year because the one we were in was substandard and a health hazard, we were refused several times simply because we needed, and I mean needed, RA.
As in living on a UK pension that has reduced by a third with currency fluctuations.

Finally the old house flooded and we had to get out fast; to the only place that was available at the price. Again, not good accommodation.

We truly deserve better treatment than this.

A crime to be old or disabled?

Assumptions made with no contact.

It is a relatively easy matter for an agent to ask who the person is etc and ask for references.

But no; a blanket ban.

This is what leads folk to assume that it is the tax evasion issue that is at the root of it.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

From personal experience, the HSE don't keep tenant or landlord informed about anything. If you inquire, my experience they give the impression they don't really want to help anyone. Basically you hit a wall. Can you email me that, no, can you give me the office number, no, can you give me the name of the person dealing with it, no. Etc etc. Thats before you get any issues or not with the tenant.

Here all you do is call the Community Welfare Officer, whose number is available and who we have to see before RA is granted. And who has to see the house also.

It is very simple indeed; he has clinics in most areas on set days or at the HSE office.

BostonB

Graces7 wrote: »

That is an invalid comparison and really quite insulting? ...

Your taking it personally, solely from your own point of view.
Whereas I'm simply saying its a business not a service.

Graces7 wrote: »

Here all you do is call the Community Welfare Officer, whose number is available and who we have to see before RA is granted. And who has to see the house also.

It is very simple indeed; he has clinics in most areas on set days or at the HSE office.

Unfortunately it does seem all areas are as well organised. Probably due to demand being far higher in some areas than others.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

Your taking it personally, solely from your own point of view.
Whereas I'm simply saying its a business not a service.

Of course I am; we are after all individuals.. How else can anyone take it? A roof over one's head is very different from an unnecessary event like a meal out. Try sleeping rough some time.


Unfortunately it does seem all areas are as well organised. Probably due to demand being far higher in some areas than others.

,,

BostonB

Thats an entirely different topic.

The point of the discussion was why some landlords don't want RA tenants. The only way to understand that is to see if from their point of view.

Darlughda

BostonB wrote: »

Thats an entirely different topic.

The point of the discussion was why some landlords don't want RA tenants. The only way to understand that is to see if from their point of view.

From this and other threads, I have looked at their point of view.
It seems to boil down to landlords merely viewing tenants as cash cows in their properties, rather than considering the fact there are far reaching moral and social obligations to be considered.

Discriminating against tenants for the hassle factor is lazy, and producing a few examples of bad experiences with RA tenants is just an excuse to discriminate against people who are on a lower socio-economic scale; the elderly, disabled and other vulnerable people.

I am struggling now to find a landlord who will accept RA.
Despite the fact it has been confirmed by my CWO that I am eligible for RA, and I have a deposit and a couple of months rent saved to cover any delays of the receipt of payment.

After the initial hassle of form signing with a tenant like me, a landlord should be delighted to have guaranteed rent coming in, and a trustworthy tenant who would look after their property for a few years and treat it as my home.

How on earth can I even approach or present my case when the majority of ads on daft.ie state Rent Allowance Not Accepted.?

BostonB

I think what your thinking about is non-profit Housing. Not private rental which is a business to make profit.

Graces7

Darlughda wrote: »

From this and other threads, I have looked at their point of view.
It seems to boil down to landlords merely viewing tenants as cash cows in their properties, rather than considering the fact there are far reaching moral and social obligations to be considered.

Discriminating against tenants for the hassle factor is lazy, and producing a few examples of bad experiences with RA tenants is just an excuse to discriminate against people who are on a lower socio-economic scale; the elderly, disabled and other vulnerable people.

I am struggling now to find a landlord who will accept RA.
Despite the fact it has been confirmed by my CWO that I am eligible for RA, and I have a deposit and a couple of months rent saved to cover any delays of the receipt of payment.

After the initial hassle of form signing with a tenant like me, a landlord should be delighted to have guaranteed rent coming in, and a trustworthy tenant who would look after their property for a few years and treat it as my home.

How on earth can I even approach or present my case when the majority of ads on daft.ie state Rent Allowance Not Accepted.?

Thank you; says it all. Please God you find somewhere.
One or two agencies here will not take on properties where the landlord refuses RA. Others do sadly.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

Thats an entirely different topic.

The point of the discussion was why some landlords don't want RA tenants. The only way to understand that is to see if from their point of view.

:rolleyes:

We KNOW their point of view; money in most cases.

We are their clients, remember. We are paying them, not vice versa. Most seem to forget that.

BostonB

Thats point of running a business. To make money. That also why people work. make money to live and pay the bills. Even people who work for charities get a wage. So I don't get why thats something to be condescending about tbh.

The only real protection a landlords have is the deposit. Paid in advance. Human nature is that people are more careful if their own money is at risk. As soon as a tenant goes in arrears, or pays a month late, (or 3 months) that protection is gone.

The RA system makes RA tenants different by paying in arrears, often late. I'm not a landlord but I know people who are. One is into the 4th month of no rent from the HSE. The HSE can't see why this causes a problem for landlords and tenants. Well this thread is a perfect example of the problems it causes.

Graces7

BostonB wrote: »

Thats point of running a business. To make money. That also why people work. make money to live and pay the bills. Even people who work for charities get a wage. So I don't get why thats something to be condescending about tbh.

The only real protection a landlords have is the deposit. Paid in advance. Human nature is that people are more careful if their own money is at risk. As soon as a tenant goes in arrears, or pays a month late, (or 3 months) that protection is gone.

The RA system makes RA tenants different by paying in arrears, often late. I'm not a landlord but I know people who are. One is into the 4th month of no rent from the HSE. The HSE can't see why this causes a problem for landlords and tenants. Well this thread is a perfect example of the problems it causes.

Not all who work full time for charities get a wage by any means.

And re your last para; that is still no excuse for judging folk as is done here. Small wonder the numbers of homeless is growing so fast; or that so many have to take substandard accommodation.

Or that there is so much substandard accommodation in Ireland. Some of which, incidentally, would not be approved for RA by the CWO. We have had that happen. So yet another reason to refuse RA clients.

The_Conductor

Ok guys- the OP was asking- can a landlord refuse to sign rent allowance for a tenant made redundant? Yes, is the short and simple. I believe this has been satisfactorily dealt with here- and am thus closing the thread.