Labour Court recommendation.... Jobs for Life..Are they serious?

Welease

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/pay.html

"In a recommendation issued this evening, Labour Court Chairman Kevin Duffy also says that health staff belonging to the IMPACT trade union should continue to enjoy guarantees of jobs for life contained in a Framework Agreement concluded in 2004 when the HSE was set up."

How can anyone think that these sort of recommendations are sensible?

Scarab80

It's not the fault of the Labour Court, they are just upholding an agreement made by the Government.

At least they recommended an end to the industrial dispute.

Welease

It's not their fault, but a recommendation will be used as leverage..

Anyone who would possibly recommend a job for life for a whole segment of a workforce imho is so far out of touch with reality that I personally cannot have faith in any other recommendation from that body.

Scarab80

They are not recommending jobs for life, they are recommending the continuing validity of this particular agreement from a legal perspective.

Welease

Scarab80 wrote: »

They are not recommending jobs for life, they are recommending the continuing validity of this particular agreement from a legal perspective.

Agreed.. but how can anyone recommend the validity of an agreement which guarantees a job for life?

Legally, yes it's valid.. but so were all the other agreements under discussion at the LRC which were eventually changed.

Maybe it's media spin, but I wonder why the jobs for life was specifically called out on an agreement that contained so much more.

Scarab80

IMPACT requested specific assurance that the Croke Park deal would not affect this condition of employment.

Let's hope it will lead to them accepting the Croke Park deal.

Welease

See thats my issue

I think they will accept the deal, then if the need arises to streamline parts of the HSE (given that it's generally accepted to be over resourced in areas), we are back at step 1 again.. Impact pulls folks out, because the agreement that was recommended by the LRC was jobs for life..

"MPACT has said it will accept the recommendation if the HSE agrees to abide by its terms. National Secretary Kevin Callinan confirmed that the union's industrial action will cease once the HSE confirms acceptance of the Labour Court recommendation."

hiorta

It seems mad to enter something of this nature giving hostages to fortune.
Even insurance companies try to anticipate impossible risks.

RichardAnd

I just heard that on the 10 o'clock news. The health service is more bloated than any other PS body and is in dire need of some "fat trimming" but these things can be read in a number of ways.

I'd be fairly confident that the contract doesn't literally state in plain English "HS workers should get a job for life", more than likely it says it in legal jargon that is illegible to 90% of people who read it. I'd say that the government could twist it, if they had the courage to do so, into something else.

Always be mindful of what contracts say.

Scarab80

Welease wrote: »

See thats my issue

I think they will accept the deal, then if the need arises to streamline parts of the HSE (given that it's generally accepted to be over resourced in areas), we are back at step 1 again.. Impact pulls folks out, because the agreement that was recommended by the LRC was jobs for life..

"MPACT has said it will accept the recommendation if the HSE agrees to abide by its terms. National Secretary Kevin Callinan confirmed that the union's industrial action will cease once the HSE confirms acceptance of the Labour Court recommendation."

Well the government have already guaranteed no compulsory redundancies as part of the Croke Park deal, what we need to be able to do is move people from overstaffed areas of the public service to areas where they are needed and let the numbers fall through natural wasteage.

Check out this post, unreal!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65737910&postcount=23

oilibhear

Welease wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/pay.html
How can anyone think that these sort of recommendations are sensible?

Must have made sense to future-President Bertie and anyone who voted Fianna Fáil over the past decade - and of course the nurses are laughin'!

oilibhear

Scarab80 wrote: »

Check out this post, unreal!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65737910&postcount=23

Wow.

Welease

Scarab80 wrote: »

Well the government have already guaranteed no compulsory redundancies as part of the Croke Park deal, what we need to be able to do is move people from overstaffed areas of the public service to areas where they are needed and let the numbers fall through natural wasteage.

Check out this post, unreal!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65737910&postcount=23

Agreed.. and sadly I have seen similar behaviour in the private sector..

I am just amazed that the LRC could recommend a continuation of a jobs for life policy specifically. I cannot think of any business model (but I'm not an expert ) in which that would make good sense, so why recommend it (again it might just be the media spin put on it.. it just struck me as a) odd & b) dumb)..

Anyhoo

Count Dooku

Scarab80 wrote: »

At least they recommended an end to the industrial dispute.

Is it not high price for keeping 3000 useless managers and clerks on payroll?
If HSE would fire them, then it would be no reason to close hospitals

Welease

Count Dooku wrote: »

Is it not high price for keeping 3000 useless managers and clerks on payroll?
If HSE would fire them, then it would be no reason to close hospitals

Well thats been my position for months...

I would vote against an agreement where we all have to suffer extended pay cuts in order to facilitate the continued employment of the unnessary and or incompetant/lazy staff.. It's voting to ensure the people who work hard/smart continually fail to get the recognition for their efforts.

It's a piss poor version of local employment communism

FlutterinBantam

Welease wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0505/pay.html

"In a recommendation issued this evening, Labour Court Chairman Kevin Duffy also says that health staff belonging to the IMPACT trade union should continue to enjoy guarantees of jobs for life contained in a Framework Agreement concluded in 2004 when the HSE was set up."

How can anyone think that these sort of recommendations are sensible?

Even worse... index linked pensions.

After 12 years in retirement you would be earning more than when you retired.:eek::eek:

Give us a frikken break here!!

ardmacha

After 12 years in retirement you would be earning more than when you retired

Which would reflect the fact that the economy had doubled in the meantime.

97i9y3941

Dont forget the lovely payoffs or moved to another department if you do a fcuk up

And i assume they are cutting back on services to pay for the old biddies that have being sitting in their same office for years..

For Forks Sake

ardmacha wrote: »

Which would reflect the fact that the economy had doubled in the meantime.

but why should those no longer contributing to the economy be rewarded for it's improvement?

ardmacha

but why should those no longer contributing to the economy be rewarded for it's improvement?

That's a crass statement even by boards.ie standards.

Head The Wall

ardmacha wrote: »

That's a crass statement even by boards.ie standards.

He's perfectly right, most of these people would have paid feck all towards a pension. Why should they be rewarded for it, this is where pension levy money is going to

RichardAnd

Fred83 wrote: »

Dont forget the lovely payoffs or moved to another department if you do a fcuk up

And i assume they are cutting back on services to pay for the old biddies that have being sitting in their same office for years..

When I was in the PS, there was a guy in the office that had been caught taking bribes (found guilty and all). Rather then being fired, he was allowed to keep his job and pension providing he paid the money back. It wasn't just a once off either, he was at it for years.

I won't name him nor the department but I am not making this up. The guy was actually likeable enough but he should have been sacked. When unions can get this strong there is a real problem.

Count Dooku

is she "state official" or "former state official"?

State official avoids jail after stealing €100,000 from bank

A DEPARTMENT of Agriculture official escaped a jail sentence yesterday after admitting stealing €100,000 from Bank of Ireland.

Fiona Finnegan (39), a married woman with a family from Sylaun, Tuam, Co Galway, pleaded guilty before Galway Circuit Court to a single charge of stealing the money from the Bank of Ireland branch at Dublin Road, Tuam, on November 22, 2006.

97i9y3941

RichardAnd wrote: »

When I was in the PS, there was a guy in the office that had been caught taking bribes (found guilty and all). Rather then being fired, he was allowed to keep his job and pension providing he paid the money back. It wasn't just a once off either, he was at it for years.

I won't name him nor the department but I am not making this up. The guy was actually likeable enough but he should have been sacked. When unions can get this strong there is a real problem.

i well believe you,there was an independent investigations done while back on opw and irish rail and found certain contracts where rewarded to certain people,talking about bribes and favours,there where people up the north fired from the water board for that carry on :mad:

Tipp Man

The labour court and labour relations commission are a farce, why because they are run by bloody unions as usual. Lets take a look at Mr Kevin Duffy's track record

"
Mr Kevin Duffy has been Deputy Chairman of the Labour Court since 1997. Prior to that he was Assistant General Secretary of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions since 1988 with responsibility for industrial relations and trade union organisation. Before taking up the position of Assistant General Secretary of Congress, Mr Duffy was General Secretary of the Ancient Guild of Incorporated Brick and Stonelayers' and Allied Trades Union (now part of the Building and Allied Trades' Union).

Mr Duffy has been a member of the Labour Relations Commission, the Civil Service Arbitration Board and the Board of FÁS."

http://www.entemp.ie/press/2003/191203.htm


Like i said its a farce

DidierMc

Imagine workers wanting job security and pensions? What crazy demands!

oilibhear

DidierMc wrote: »

Imagine workers wanting job security and pensions? What crazy demands!

Imagine their faces the day their pay cheques bounce!

Unfortunately I won't be able to enjoy it. Come that day, I'll have a face on me myself - imagining how we are going to survive as a state without money.

Welease

DidierMc wrote: »

Imagine workers wanting job security and pensions? What crazy demands!

I can.. I can also imagine a country that is run within it's means.. a concept that obviously escapes many people close to our public services..

Do you support the bankers/developers for their similar fiscal suicide, or only when it benefits you?

DidierMc

oilibhear wrote: »

Imagine their faces the day their pay cheques bounce!

Unfortunately I won't be able to enjoy it. Come that day, I'll have a face on me myself - imagining how we are going to survive as a state without money.

So the state can only function if employers are able to sack workers if they look at them cross eyed?

Manach

Counter-argument that if there was such a company, then keeping motived and productive employees would be a problem?

DidierMc

Manach wrote: »

Counter-argument that if there was such a company, then keeping motived and productive employees would be a problem?

Maybe a whip would motivate them?

Welease

Manach wrote: »

Counter-argument that if there was such a company, then keeping motived and productive employees would be a problem?

Sadly not.. what once was a bonus soon moves becomes a "right".. and the demands for something else increases.. if the new demands are not met, then motivation and productiviy decreases..

Case in point.. look at the Public Service and the studies on comparable pay and benefits to other sectors.. The HSE would hardly be help up as a shining example of a motivated and productive organisation.

DidierMc

Welease wrote: »

Sadly not.. what once was a bonus soon moves becomes a "right".. and the demands for something else increases.. if the new demands are not met, then motivation and productiviy decreases..

Case in point.. look at the Public Service and the studies on comparable pay and benefits to other sectors.. The HSE would hardly be help up as a shining example of a motivated and productive organisation.

And what is a good example? Ryanair? Irish Ferries?

Welease

DidierMc wrote: »

And what is a good example? Ryanair? Irish Ferries?

Not that I credit any of your posts with making much sense.. but how do Ryanair and Irish Ferries even come into the discuss at hand?

Do they have jobs for life?

oilibhear

DidierMc wrote: »

So the state can only function if employers are able to sack workers if they look at them cross eyed?

No, a state cannot function without money.

For example, typically people won't work for free. The absence of money rather takes the allure out of working. In 2008 we were short 13 billion in the money needed to run our state. In 2009 we were short 23 billion. For comparison, the entire public-sector pay cost is 19 billion for one year. We are surviving off money lenders to pay their cheques. That won't last for ever. Eventually the money lenders will realise they won't be getting their money back and that will be the end of that.

If we keep pushing it forward like this, the day will come when the money lenders say nay and the cheques we issue to public sector employees will bounce. Come that day, Gardaí will no longer walk our streets. Teachers will no longer stand in our classrooms. Nurses will no longer attend patients in our hospitals. Our state will be no more.

Some pragmatism is necessary.