Confirmation: FF are an anti-democratic party

steelcityblues

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0505/breaking63.html


Confirmation, or indeed the final confirmation, that when those who have said long before me on these boards that FF do not really accept the democratic mandate, were not engaging in hyperbole!

The former TD in Donegal SW has returned to the Brussels gravy train for nearly a year and yet the date for individual voters to express their mandate needs more time? Bull!

I wonder how many people who still had quiet thoughts of voting for FF changed their mind based on tonight's vote.

If anyone is passing Leinster House, make sure an FFer gets a good verbal roasting before they escape!

Scarab80

There is a serious flaw in our constitution if it allows for a seat to be left empty for this amount of time.

Cowen is unbelieveable "It is a matter for the House to decide these matters. It is not a matter for Government", yet the house votes under the whip!

Apart from 2 eejits who pressed the wrong button!

“The two of us were located side-by-side. We were talking. We’d arrived late and we pressed the wrong button.”

That says it all really.

danman

I'd love to see this by-election.
SF seem to think that they have it in the bag, considering Pearse Doherty just missed out in the last GE.

But they fail to see that in a by-election, all the votesare for only 1 seat.
He got a lot of first preferances in the GE, but very little transfers.

I'm not sure about this, can someone confirm, but is the quota larger in a by-election?
So the winner will depend on transfers.

There are too many FG and FF voters in Donegal to allow a SFer to win.

Pearse Doherty has more chance during the GE, but a bad result in a "by" may be counterproductive to SF in a following GE.

SeaFields

Add this to a very long list of things that will be put before the people when there is a new government (provided it ain't the shower that are in there now!)...exactly what Caoimhín O Caoláin said this evening....i.e. a change in the Constitution so that a by-election will be held within a fixed time period of a seat being vacated.

All of these things need to be changed to that they wont be at the disposal of FF if they ever get into government again.

The opposition and media need to put serious pressure for these election to be held.

Fratton Fred

Does this mean we are saving one TD's wages?

Sounds like a win if we are.

Essexboy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does this mean we are saving one TD's wages?

Sounds like a win if we are.

But we are losing on a Ministerial and TD's pensions!

PS The word is CRESCENT

Scarab80

danman wrote: »

I'm not sure about this, can someone confirm, but is the quota larger in a by-election?
So the winner will depend on transfers.

Yes the quota is the number of votes divided by the number of seats plus one.

rightwingdub

We have too many TDS in this country full stop. The government shouldn't even call for aby election, Donegal south west is adequately represented with the idiot Coughlan and McGinley.

Overheal

Scarab80 wrote: »

“The two of us were located side-by-side. We were talking. We’d arrived late and we pressed the wrong button.”

"We don't know how to operate a simple mechano-electronic device, we dont know what we're voting on, and we don't have the decency to arrive on time for that thing that we didnt know what it was."

I either call bullsh!t or hope for their sakes they remember which pedal is the brake on their way home.

Liam Byrne

Overheal wrote: »

I either call bullsh!t or hope for their sakes they remember which pedal is the brake on their way home.

Or which side of the dual-carraigeway to drive on.......oh hang on - he was probably at home dossing again......

Gurgle

Tis possible I'm misinformed, but 3 seats going to anyone but FF would put the government on the very brink, right?

Biggins

I'm disgusted to the core of their actions - and whats more I have stated so on my site (www.unitedpeople.ie).
Its absolutely disgusting - I might be wrong in my words used but its the way I feel!

Pigs - the whole lot of them!

Eliot Rosewater

I wouldn't imagine so. The Government tied this vote, but if the two FF members had voted the correct way it would have been a margin of 4 votes. Thus an extra 3 seats for the opposition will still eave them with a 1 vote margin.

That is to ignore everyone else that didn't turn up.

Liam Byrne

Gurgle wrote: »

Tis possible I'm misinformed, but 3 seats going to anyone but FF would put the government on the very brink, right?

One would suspect that this is the reasoning behind Cowen's refusal to hold the by-election.

I would definitely swear that if it were the other way around that FF would be screaming blue murder and corruption, two-faced hypocrites that they are.

Sulmac

If there is going to be a referendum on the children's rights amendment to the Constitution and/or the Dublin mayoral election later this year, they will have a very difficult time trying to justify not holding the three outstanding by-elections (Donegal South-West, Dublin South, Waterford) on the same day. That's not to say they won't try though.

Liam Byrne

I also can't help wondering why none of the FF members came out and admitted that they "voted the wrong way" on NAMA or Anglo....

Can we have a re-vote on those, just in case there's an outbreak of ethics in FF at the mo ?

MrDarcy

This electronic voting mistake in the Dail yesterday could have opened up a whole constitutional can of worms if the motion had been defeated, accidently or not... The constitution states that the Taoiseach MUST go to the Aras and seek a dissolution of the Dail from the president if he or she loses the support of the majority of Dail Eireann.

It would been interesting to see how this panned out if the motion yesterday had been defeated, albeit accidently. The constitutional imperative placed upon the Taoiseach to go to the President if defeated in a motion brought before the Dail seems to be absolute and there doesn't seem to be a provision for "ah I pressed the wrong button"...

Laminations

I'd like to see one of the FF fanboys come on here and defend this bull from the government. Total contempt for the electorate in a effort to hold power. Another example of party before country.

steelcityblues

If only George Lee didn't leave in a huff a few months ago!

mike65

The opposition can't move another motion on Donegal SW for 6 months but they can move on Dublin South East and Waterford and so should do so over the next two weeks.

amen

The constitution states that the Taoiseach MUST go to the Aras and seek a dissolution of the Dail from the president if he or she loses the support of the majority of Dail Eireann

I believe that is only in the case of a finance bill proposed by the government.

TDs can propose private member bills which can pass/fail but have no effect on the government

scr123

I do sincerely wish contributors to message boards such as this would take a break from the chair and the computer and pay a visit to the real world of politics and economics.
We elect 166 people to form a government to run our country and its my belief our politicians do this to the best of their ability. We engage in a lot of party politics nonsense but at the end of the day our politicians are united in the belief the country comes first. We have problems now and no matter what party is in power those problems have to be tackled, the solutions applied will essentially be the same from all the parties.
Holding 3 bye-elections now will be highly disruptive and costly and if the truth were told unnecessary as the constituencies involved are fully represented. My gut feeling is the government will get another Budget trhough the Dail and then go to the country. They will do so in a manner that will be helpful to the Green Party who have been so heroic in putting the country first. I say this even though staunch FF

steelcityblues

scr123 wrote: »

I do sincerely wish contributors to message boards such as this would take a break from the chair and the computer and pay a visit to the real world of politics and economics.
We elect 166 people to form a government to run our country and its my belief our politicians do this to the best of their ability. We engage in a lot of party politics nonsense but at the end of the day our politicians are united in the belief the country comes first. We have problems now and no matter what party is in power those problems have to be tackled, the solutions applied will essentially be the same from all the parties.
Holding 3 bye-elections now will be highly disruptive and costly and if the truth were told unnecessary as the constituencies involved are fully represented. My gut feeling is the government will get another Budget trhough the Dail and then go to the country. They will do so in a manner that will be helpful to the Green Party who have been so heroic in putting the country first. I say this even though staunch FF

"This message has been approved by the friends and supporters of Brian Cowen!"

mike65

*bursts out laughing*

/did you trek over from P.ie by any chance?

Biggins

scr123 wrote: »

I do sincerely wish contributors to message boards such as this would take a break from the chair and the computer and pay a visit to the real world of politics and economics.
We elect 166 people to form a government to run our country and its my belief our politicians do this to the best of their ability. We engage in a lot of party politics nonsense but at the end of the day our politicians are united in the belief the country comes first. We have problems now and no matter what party is in power those problems have to be tackled, the solutions applied will essentially be the same from all the parties.
Holding 3 bye-elections now will be highly disruptive and costly and if the truth were told unnecessary as the constituencies involved are fully represented. My gut feeling is the government will get another Budget trhough the Dail and then go to the country. They will do so in a manner that will be helpful to the Green Party who have been so heroic in putting the country first. I say this even though staunch FF

* sigh *

Still can't believe FF voters are that non-open to alternative views of their leaders actions.
It's like a horse wearing blinkers.

Nijmegen

scr123 wrote: »

I do sincerely wish contributors to message boards such as this would take a break from the chair and the computer and pay a visit to the real world of politics and economics.
We elect 166 people to form a government to run our country and its my belief our politicians do this to the best of their ability. We engage in a lot of party politics nonsense but at the end of the day our politicians are united in the belief the country comes first. We have problems now and no matter what party is in power those problems have to be tackled, the solutions applied will essentially be the same from all the parties.
Holding 3 bye-elections now will be highly disruptive and costly and if the truth were told unnecessary as the constituencies involved are fully represented. My gut feeling is the government will get another Budget trhough the Dail and then go to the country. They will do so in a manner that will be helpful to the Green Party who have been so heroic in putting the country first. I say this even though staunch FF

It is our constitutional right to have full representation in every constituency as mandated by the rules.

It is not up for discussion whether or not one has an opinion on whether or not a constituency is properly represented. It is enshrined in the constitution and the laws of this country that we all deserve representation, and what that representation should consist of.

What is being done here is a loophole is being used to prevent the government majority from slimming further.

At this point things are so tight that if a FF TD took a heart attack he'd probably be wheeled into the Dail on a drip to cast votes.

Laminations

Laminations wrote: »

I'd like to see one of the FF fanboys come on here and defend this bull from the government.

scr123 wrote: »

We elect 166 people to form a government to run our country and its my belief our politicians do this to the best of their ability. We engage in a lot of party politics nonsense but at the end of the day our politicians are united in the belief the country comes first. We have problems now and no matter what party is in power those problems have to be tackled, the solutions applied will essentially be the same from all the parties.
Holding 3 bye-elections now will be highly disruptive and costly and if the truth were told unnecessary as the constituencies involved are fully represented. F

I should be careful what I wish for!! Your justification of the government bending the constitutional rights of the people is heart warming. Keep up the good work

Overheal

Biggins wrote: »

I'm disgusted to the core of their actions - and whats more I have stated so on my site (www.unitedpeople.ie).

I couldnt peg it for a while... but that picture of Gormley reminds me of Hannibal Lecter.

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

Holding 3 bye-elections now will be highly disruptive and costly and if the truth were told unnecessary as the constituencies involved are fully represented.

Define "fully represented" ?

scr123 wrote: »

They will do so in a manner that will be helpful to the Green Party who have been so heroic in putting the country first. I say this even though staunch FF

Hmmm.....interesting interpretation of "putting the country first".

Is there any chance that this opinion is because you are staunch FF, given that it has kept them in power ?

Skrynesaver

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Define "fully represented" ?

Sure haven't they sweary Mary and the good Doctor Jim, why would they need another representative :mad:

DeVore

Weird thing is.... right now, even this government is better then no government. We need the pretence of having our sh*t together. An election now would be a disaster (and God knows I want an election!).

You don't change horses mid-apocalypse.

DeV

Taxipete29

DeVore wrote: »

Weird thing is.... right now, even this government is better then no government. We need the pretence of having our sh*t together. An election now would be a disaster (and God knows I want an election!).

You don't change horses mid-apocalypse.

DeV

Its a by-election, not a general. The Govt would still be in place.

Overheal

DeVore wrote: »

Weird thing is.... right now, even this government is better then no government. We need the pretence of having our sh*t together. An election now would be a disaster (and God knows I want an election!).

You don't change horses mid-apocalypse.

DeV

Didnt the UK just finish a General Election? Or is currently in the proceedings of said GE?

sceptre

Overheal wrote: »

Didnt the UK just finish a General Election? Or is currently in the proceedings of said GE?

They're just having an ongoing financial crisis. We've got a recession with 16 horses hooves echoing faintly in the distance and possibly getting nearer.

Given that Pat The Cope's former seat in particular is now heading for a year of emptiness, the current informal, largely undefined and effectively non-mandatory procedure is obviously a failure for representation. A constitutional amendment to have a bye-election held within X months in the event of an empty seat would be ideal as a solution. A legislative solution enacted to have a bye-election held within X months in the event of an empty seat would be satisfactory. What we currently have is not satisfactory.

jimmycrackcorm

Nijmegen wrote: »

It is our constitutional right to have full representation in every constituency as mandated by the rules.

It is not up for discussion whether or not one has an opinion on whether or not a constituency is properly represented. It is enshrined in the constitution and the laws of this country that we all deserve representation, and what that representation should consist of.

What is being done here is a loophole is being used to prevent the government majority from slimming further.

At this point things are so tight that if a FF TD took a heart attack he'd probably be wheeled into the Dail on a drip to cast votes.

If the government didn't have such a slim majority then would it make any difference whether or not this seat were to be filled as the full representation is achieved by proxy (i.e all the government deputies vote with the government regardless).

Overheal

sceptre wrote: »

They're just having an ongoing financial crisis. We've got a recession with 16 horses hooves echoing faintly in the distance and possibly getting nearer.

In fairness, such gems....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHxOnOwR_1E

We didn't suspend our Election, either. Or the Inauguration. This is despite the events in October 2008 that pointed to imminent economic collapse. Which as we know, has had wide-reaching global implication.

bmaxi

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Sure haven't they sweary Mary and the good Doctor Jim, why would they need another representative :mad:

Play fair, she only swears when she's p*ssed.

steelcityblues

Sounds like another anti-democratic move behind the scenes, ironically by Cowen against his own party members:


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-accused-of-moving-to-see-off-lemass-group-2176170.html

Liam Byrne

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

....i.e all the government deputies vote with the government regardless.

Not quite always.....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0505/breaking63.html

Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough, though.

Laminations

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Not quite always.....

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0505/breaking63.html

Unfortunately it doesn't happen often enough, though.

Or for the right reasons. Usually TDs go against the whip out of self-interest rather than national interest, other times they just press the wrong button like complete eejits who you'd swear weren't being paid for their incompetence.

steelcityblues

As most here probably know by now, another disgraceful vote outcome yesterday!

andyman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I would definitely swear that if it were the other way around that FF would be screaming blue murder and corruption, two-faced hypocrites that they are.

Stupid argument. All of the parties would do that and every single one of them are hypocrites.

GarlicBread

DeVore wrote: »

Weird thing is.... right now, even this government is better then no government. We need the pretence of having our sh*t together. An election now would be a disaster (and God knows I want an election!).

You don't change horses mid-apocalypse.

DeV

I disagree. We arnt going anywhere until this lot are kicked out. We are stuck in a time warp and hemorrhaging billions to the banks. No one trusts them, the unions dont know wheather to roll over and die or call for a revolution. 300,000 people are at risk of becoming homeless because the gov wont do anything to help. We are losing jobs at an insane rate. And on and on.

Maybe we should take the horse that rode us into the apocolapse outside and put a bullet in its head. It will give a moral boost at the very least.

FG/Lab are better suited and will cause less damage. They also have credability and a mandate.

FF's persistance to stay in power has only a ruining effect for us all which is rippling into the future a thousand fold everyday they are still there.

steelcityblues

I would never describe an election as a 'disaster', because at the very least, the majority of voters preferences come to light in form of a government.

As a wise man once said: "The people have spoken, the ********!"

Deise Tom

Have not read any posts on this thread yet, but has anyone suggested, or would they argree, that a new rule whereby if a TD dies or resigns, that the highest place un-elected canditate from the General Election which elected or re-elected the TD needing to be replace, should be offered the position if they are still interested in going to Leinster House, and if they are not the offer goes to the next highest un-elected canditate.

If something like this was introduced then it would save the country a lot of money having to hold bye-elections, elections that the majority of the people if they are totally honest have little or any interest in.

When a councillor resigns or dies, there is not a bye-election to fill the seat (to the best of my knowledge) and the same could be introduced for the dail. I know in a council election that its a person from the party of the person needing replacing gets the job, but in a general election, this could not necesserally be the case.

DeVore

GarlicBread wrote: »

I disagree. We arnt going anywhere until this lot are kicked out. We are stuck in a time warp and hemorrhaging billions to the banks. No one trusts them, the unions dont know wheather to roll over and die or call for a revolution. 300,000 people are at risk of becoming homeless because the gov wont do anything to help. We are losing jobs at an insane rate. And on and on.

Maybe we should take the horse that rode us into the apocolapse outside and put a bullet in its head. It will give a moral boost at the very least.

FG/Lab are better suited and will cause less damage. They also have credability and a mandate.

FF's persistance to stay in power has only a ruining effect for us all which is rippling into the future a thousand fold everyday they are still there.

Sorry.... I'm confused, you say we are haemorrhaging billing a week but then go on to say that FG/Lab are better suited and will cause less damage??

Sorry, wouldnt Lab/FG be even worse on the Public Sector pay bill??

Can you answer this question separately because I am genuinely curious.
DeV.

DeVore

I dont think we should do ANYTHING to upset the international applecart right now and that includes an election *right* *now* because it will cause uncertainty and fear and that will cause a great deal MORE trouble for us.

In a few weeks, maybe even a few months, this crisis will either have us all buying tins of beans and shotgun shells or it will have eased and like one of those annoying traffic jams that just dissappear, we will all be looking around going, jesus, that was weird!

Now, what we need to do then is NOT FORGET who is owed a kicking (I'll give you a hint, they are hanging on to power at the moment) and that serious SERIOUS issues need to be dealt with head on like removing the governments ability to refuse to timetable bye elections etc and their capacity to give away that amount of money without a referendum of the people who's money it is.

But right now, my serious advice is..... attract no attention and present the international face of "nothing to see here, we're taking care of our patch". Oh, and we need to cut spending, like, NOW.

DeV.

maynooth_rules

DeVore wrote: »

I dont think we should do ANYTHING to upset the international applecart right now and that includes an election *right* *now* because it will cause uncertainty and fear and that will cause a great deal MORE trouble for us.

Do you not think you are completly buying into Fianna Fail spin there. The British general election took place 2 weeks ago, it didn't in any way upset the 'international apple cart'. Fine Gael is a member of the Christian Democratic group in the European Union, along with Angela Merkels German party. It would hardly be a disaster for us on the international stage to have a government that is so close to the stongest European Union country.
On top of that, I am sure that having the party that almost is completly and utterly responsible for the crisis we are in the STILL in power does not exactly make us look fantastic on the international stage.
I was talking to a South African doctor yesterday, and he found it laughable that Fianna Fail were still in power, and he made particular reference to our former leader and a former minister for Finance who had no bank account. According to this doctor he got a good laugh from that story when it appeared in the South African press

Deise Tom

maynooth_rules wrote: »

he made particular reference to our former leader and a former minister for Finance who had no bank account.

A point that has nothing to do with politics, how many people whose marriage is breaking up, do not have a bank account while the legaliticies are been sorted.

Liam Byrne

Deise Tom wrote: »

A point that has nothing to do with politics, how many people whose marriage is breaking up, do not have a bank account while the legaliticies are been sorted.

How many of them can't explain a year's wages, even after 5 attempts ? :rolleyes:

Deise Tom

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How many of them can't explain a year's wages, even after 5 attempts ? :rolleyes:

I take what you say on board, and you are right in what you are saying, but i revert back to my question, and ask how many people who have marriage problems, suddenly dont have a bank account. Polititions are no different. They are human as well.