Reports that three dead in Greek bank fire

Sand

It appears the continuing teenage acting out in Greece by various far left and anarchist groups there has delivered up the inevitable at last.

Hopefully the deaths will lead to a little bit of reflection and maturity on the part of all sides in Greece and everyone works to calm down the situation and to face reality like adults as opposed to children. None of the actors in Greece has covered themselves in glory.

Greece has only two options - default and austerity, or bailout and austerity. You cant spend money you dont have. You cant borrow money from people who dont believe you will pay them back. Throwing molotovs at banks with people working in them wont change that. The effect of the entitlement culture inspired by socialism has deeply damaged Greece and they need to snap out of it.

Hopefully our own contingent in the trade unions and various civil service fiefdoms will learn from the Greek experience.

amacachi

Bodies were found in a building that had been burnt out, last I heard there were 3 buildings still on fire, so fingers crossed there's nothing more in there.

Sad, sad state of affairs.

blue_steel

Sand wrote: »

The effect of the entitlement culture inspired by socialism has deeply damaged Greece and they need to snap out of it.

And there was me thinking that the right wing ND party had been in power from 2004 to 2009 in Greece. And that the economic meltdown of the last two years had started on Wall Street. There must be one hell of a lot of Socialists working for Goldman Sachs.

P. Breathnach

blue_steel wrote: »

... There must be one hell of a lot of Socialists working for Goldman Sachs.

On the basis that socialists are generally held responsible for impoverishing people who were previously wealthy, that seems a fair comment.

rightwingdub

blue_steel wrote: »

And there was me thinking that the right wing ND party had been in power from 2004 to 2009 in Greece. And that the economic meltdown of the last two years had started on Wall Street. There must be one hell of a lot of Socialists working for Goldman Sachs.

New Democracy would be left wing in my opinion when it comes to economics they threw pay increase after pay increase for public sector workers when they were in government from 2004 till 2009, they did nothing to reform the public sector.

On today's murders that have taken place, the army should be called out onto the streets and any scumbags that are rioting should be shot on sight. I've no problem with peaceful demonstrations but scumbags destroying buildings should not be tolerated and should be dealt with extreme solutions including been shot dead.

ei.sdraob

Sand wrote: »

It appears the continuing teenage acting out in Greece by various far left and anarchist groups

Is that why our resident anarchist @alias141282 gone quiet lately?

he kept going on over and over about anarcho-syndicalism (aka anarcho-communism)

:rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

blue_steel wrote: »

There must be one hell of a lot of Socialists working for Goldman Sachs.

funny you mention them

it was Goldman Sachs who helped the Greek government commit fraud in order to enter the euro

changes

rightwingdub wrote: »

On today's murders that have taken place, the army should be called out onto the streets and any scumbags that are rioting should be shot on sight. I've no problem with peaceful demonstrations but scumbags destroying buildings should not be tolerated and should be dealt with extreme solutions including been shot dead.

I agree, when ordinary workers are murdered in their place of work then the rioters have to be stopped at all costs.

Peaceful protests fine - rioting and endangering lives is a completely different matter.

rightwingdub

Also public sector strikes should be banned, any public sector workers that go on strike should be fired and deprived of the right to social welfare, the government should impose martial law throughout all major towns and cities and there should be an 8pm curfew and no protests of more than 10 people should be allowed to take place, the trade unions must be crushed in Greece.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Well considering respect for people and their property are the pillars of libertarian thought, burning buildings and people would sort of go against the grain...

now I think you deserve an apology from certain posters who tried hard to paint yourself as an anarchist in previous threads

northwest100

ei.sdraob wrote:

funny you mention them

it was Goldman Sachs who helped the Greek government commit fraud in order to enter the euro

Yes, and who are now financial advisors to the Greek government?

If I were Greek, i'd probably be out in the streets protesting too since the current government and those of the last 10 years no longer represent the people.

fontanalis

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, and who are now financial advisors to the Greek government?

If I were Greek, i'd probably be out in the streets protesting too since the current government and those of the last 10 years no longer represent the people.

They can protest all they want but the debt is going nowhere and having confrontation junkies running amok isn't helping matters.

rightwingdub

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, and who are now financial advisors to the Greek government?

If I were Greek, i'd probably be out in the streets protesting too since the current government and those of the last 10 years no longer represent the people.

Well around 80% of Greek voters on average tend to vote for either New Democracy or the Socialists, mind you the commies have a couple of crooked politicians as well. Greek people need to take a hard look at themselves and reassess their tolerant attitudes towards corruption.

ei.sdraob

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, and who are now financial advisors to the Greek government?

If I were Greek, i'd probably be out in the streets protesting too since the current government and those of the last 10 years no longer represent the people.

Ok lets say a new government come into power

and refuse IMF/EU money (remember money which was requested with a begging bowl in hand by current government, only last week)

what hole will they pull 110 billion out of?

in order to continue to run the country...

northwest100

Well, there shouldn't have been ANY bailout at all.

Bail outs do not solve anything.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

northwest100

ei.sdraob wrote:

what hole will they pull 110 billion out of?

they don't.
it was fraudulently created there fore nothing is owed.

Iceland didn't give into the oligarchs and kleptocrats and neither should the greeks, but there is obviously collusion between the likes of Goldman Sachs, the IMF and elements of the Greek government.

of course, Greece would probably suffer in the short term by not paying, but the alternative is being a slave to the IMF.

ei.sdraob

northwest100 wrote: »

they don't.
it was fraudulently created there fore nothing is owed.

Iceland didn't give into the oligarchs and kleptocrats and neither should the greeks, but there is obviously collusion between the likes of Goldman Sachs, the IMF and elements of the Greek government.

of course, Greece would probably suffer in the short term by not paying, but the alternative is being a slave to the IMF.

so you propose they default?
ok lets say they default

what hole with they pull out of the 50 billion they need to pay public service and welfare in next 3 years

their books (like ireland) are not balanced
even if the existing debt is written of due to a default, that still leaves a system which is spending more than it takes on on day to day running of the state

how do you propose they solve that problem when no one want to lend them a cent?

they are bankrupt

northwest100

Quote by Max Keiser.

The only solution for Greece is to arrest the Goldman Sachs bankers immediately and all those involved in the fabrication of Greek economic data in 2000, when you became a member of the eurozone. The next step is to nationalize all banks like Sweden did in 1993. The International Monetary Fund is that last thing you need. You will lose your sovereignty. It exercises terrorism. You will be raped in such a way, that it will be the worst pain you have ever felt.

If someone burns down your house in order to sell you charcoal, would you consider this logical? That is exactly what Goldman Sachs did to the Greek economy. They burned you down like arsonists and then they tell you not to worry they’ll give you charcoal. It’s outrageous. The IMF has said that it can provide Greece with help. The Wall Street investment hedge funds are attacking Greece’s bond market so that the Greek economy collapses. And they’re doing this for a simple reason; to force the Greek people to ask for help from the IMF. The IMF will say, we came because you asked for our help. Wall Street bankers work very closely with the IMF. It’s a financial mafia and the hedge funds are the assassins. Research conducted on Goldman Sachs in the USA and in Europe show how big a mafia it is. They are involved in illegal activity throughout the world.

This makes sense to me.
Also, are you guys always trying to support a libertarian society?


donegalfella, how will the IMF help achieve this?

ei.sdraob

northwest100 wrote: »

Quote by Max Keiser.

The only solution for Greece is to arrest the Goldman Sachs bankers immediately and all those involved in the fabrication of Greek economic data in 2000, when you became a member of the eurozone. The next step is to nationalize all banks like Sweden did in 1993. The International Monetary Fund is that last thing you need. You will lose your sovereignty. It exercises terrorism. You will be raped in such a way, that it will be the worst pain you have ever felt.

If someone burns down your house in order to sell you charcoal, would you consider this logical? That is exactly what Goldman Sachs did to the Greek economy. They burned you down like arsonists and then they tell you not to worry they’ll give you charcoal. It’s outrageous. The IMF has said that it can provide Greece with help. The Wall Street investment hedge funds are attacking Greece’s bond market so that the Greek economy collapses. And they’re doing this for a simple reason; to force the Greek people to ask for help from the IMF. The IMF will say, we came because you asked for our help. Wall Street bankers work very closely with the IMF. It’s a financial mafia and the hedge funds are the assassins. Research conducted on Goldman Sachs in the USA and in Europe show how big a mafia it is. They are involved in illegal activity throughout the world.

This makes sense to me.
Also, are you guys always trying to support a libertarian society?


donegalfella, how will the IMF help achieve this?

please remind us who invited Goldman Sachs into Greece and why, and what they accomplished?

for that matter remind us who asked the IMF/EU to step in to clean up the mess

Its not as if the IMF agents burst into the country and started raping the people :rolleyes:

northwest100

how do you propose they solve that problem when no one want to lend them a cent?

they are bankrupt

yes, give them absolutely nothing.You are rewarding corruption. you are rewarding FRAUD.

please remind us who invited Goldman Sachs into Greece and why, and what they accomplished?

for that matter remind us who asked the IMF/EU to step in to clean up the mess

Its not as if the IMF agents burst into the country and started raping the people

It wasn't the Greek people, that's for sure.

ei.sdraob

northwest100 wrote: »

yes, give them absolutely nothing.

You give them nothing and the state spending will still have to be brought in line, except alot faster and more painfully...

rock and hard place

northwest100 wrote: »

It wasn't the Greek people, that's for sure.

the Greek people didnt vote in their government(s) and stood by while all this was happening?

this is exactly why more people need to get involved in politics, you put a blind eye on events and the people in power **** it up for you

Sand

@northwest100
I notice you had dodged ei.sdraobs very reasonable and pertinent question - even if you default and put Goldman Sachs up on some Stalinist showtrial before their messy execution to satisfy some need for ill defined veangence...what then?

How do you propose that Greece fills the rather epic gap in its budget? Theres quite a lot of scope for pursuing rampant tax evasion in Greece, but will that be enough in your view?

Austerity is inescapable - there can be the childish tantrum, which has resulted into a state of mind where people found it acceptable to firebomb a bank, disregarding the fate of the people inside, but it doesnt change the facts.

Watch the video
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8662508.stm

and listen carefully to what Merkel says

northwest100

Sand wrote:

I notice you had dodged ei.sdraobs very reasonable and pertinent question - even if you default and put Goldman Sachs up on some Stalinist showtrial before their messy execution to satisfy some need for ill defined veangence...what then?

Nationalize the banks as Max Keiser recommends and restructure the economy.

Don't pay any of the debt.

I don't support the PS unions, but I don't support the banks either.

Look at America, do you think they will ever pay the money that they owe? of course not, they will never pay 1 cent.

Austerity is inescapable - there can be the childish tantrum, which has resulted into a state of mind where people found it acceptable to firebomb a bank, disregarding the fate of the people inside, but it doesnt change the facts.

i know it's needed so why are Greece looking for a handout? give them nothing, let them realise they can't continue spending money they don't have.

stop rewarding banks for fraud...ffs let's wait and see what kind of bonuses Goldman Sachs get this year!

Einhard

rightwingdub wrote: »

Also public sector strikes should be banned, any public sector workers that go on strike should be fired and deprived of the right to social welfare, the government should impose martial law throughout all major towns and cities and there should be an 8pm curfew and no protests of more than 10 people should be allowed to take place, the trade unions must be crushed in Greece.

Ah, nothing like a bit of fascism to add spice to a bankruptcy!

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

they don't.
it was fraudulently created there fore nothing is owed.

You getting your debating points from a Commies Guide to Capitalism now? How exactly was it fraudulently created? The Greek government borrowed money to fund their chaotic system. They gace commitments that said capital would be returned. I fail to see anything fraudulent there. Maybe if I could borrow your biases for a moment though, it might become clearer...

Remind me never to give you a lend...

Indeed, the only fraud committed was that perpetrated by successive Greek governments in covering up their debts.

northwest100

Einhard wrote:

You getting your debating points from a Commies Guide to Capitalism now

:rolleyes:

Someone on here recently said that if a business needs to borrow money in order to keep it running, it's not a viable business.

How exactly does borrowing more money solve a debt problem?

Indeed, the only fraud committed was that perpetrated by successive Greek governments in covering up their debts.

Yes, I agree! which is precisely why the country shouldn't be bailed out.

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

Quote by Max Keiser.

The only solution for Greece is to arrest the Goldman Sachs bankers immediately and all those involved in the fabrication of Greek economic data in 2000, when you became a member of the eurozone. The next step is to nationalize all banks like Sweden did in 1993. The International Monetary Fund is that last thing you need. You will lose your sovereignty. It exercises terrorism. You will be raped in such a way, that it will be the worst pain you have ever felt.

If someone burns down your house in order to sell you charcoal, would you consider this logical? That is exactly what Goldman Sachs did to the Greek economy. They burned you down like arsonists and then they tell you not to worry they’ll give you charcoal. It’s outrageous. The IMF has said that it can provide Greece with help. The Wall Street investment hedge funds are attacking Greece’s bond market so that the Greek economy collapses. And they’re doing this for a simple reason; to force the Greek people to ask for help from the IMF. The IMF will say, we came because you asked for our help. Wall Street bankers work very closely with the IMF. It’s a financial mafia and the hedge funds are the assassins. Research conducted on Goldman Sachs in the USA and in Europe show how big a mafia it is. They are involved in illegal activity throughout the world.

This makes sense to me.

It only makes sense as **** material for far-left wing fantasists.

Seriously, you default on your debt and nationalise all the banks. Then, ten years down the road, assuming everything goes as well as you predict, and your economy is tootling along at a fine old pace, you decide you need a new motorway, or airport, or industrial complex to provide jobs for some of the proles. The costs are high and you don't have the capital at hands, so you decide to borrow. Afterall, the money borrowed will be recouped many times over once the benefits of the investment come on stream. But hold on! say the potential lenders. Weren't you that fucker who screwed us out of all that money we lent you last time? Well, you sir can go fuck yourself, you're not getting a $ from us.

And then they laugh hearthily as, without access to necessary capital, your economy stagnates further and your people suffer poverty and deprivation. All because you thought you'd stick it to the man and tell him where to go...

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

It wasn't the Greek people, that's for sure.

You do know what a representative democracy entails don't you?

northwest100

It only makes sense as **** material for far-left wing fantasists.

So you're labelling me a far-left wing fantasist? or Max Keiser?

Look dude, Max Keiser was a wallstreet broker for 25 years...and that's his opinion on the matter.

Then there is you...yeah, who are you? nobody.

northwest100

You do know what a representative democracy entails don't you?

oh, i know what democracy is.

let's ask the Greek people to vote on whether they want IMF bailing them out, I know the answer to that...

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

Look at America, do you think they will ever pay the money that they owe? of course not, they will never pay 1 cent.

I'm sorry, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about. China holds most of America's sovereign debt. Should America decide to renege on her pledges of repayment, the consequences would be dire.

Firstly, there'd be an economic war, which would likely tip into another Cold War, with China using her massive cash reserves to thwart America on every issue on the world arena. This would be disastrous for America, which is already faced with a diminuation of her power of the world stage.

Secondly, nobody would lend to America again. Considering the federal government is expected to run up a multi-billion dollar deficit in each of the next few years, and is dependent on foreign money to run basic services, this would lead to a collapse of the American way of life. Medicare, Medicaid, health reform would be shuttered. Pensions and public wages would be slashed or even abolished. Troops would be stranded in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Saudis would likely withhold oil from a customer they can no longer trust. The American system would be hard pressed to withstand such a strain.

Thirdly, America would become an international pariah. Out of the World Bank, out of the IMF, out of the WTO. Nobody would deal with America, politcally, militarily, or economically.

northwest100

Einhard wrote:

I'm sorry, but I really don't think you know what you're talking about

Jim Rogers had this to say about Greece.

"The Greeks have never lived within their means, and I suspect this time they won't either, until they're forced to by either bankruptcy or by someone just refusing to give them loans,"

"A few years ago the French came up with some phoney bookkeeping that was so absurd that even the Italians
were stunned... and the Italians have been using phoney bookkeeping for centuries. This is rampant in Europe,"

What you Einhard and a few others on here are advocating is that we continue to keep giving Greece money until they eventually do go bankrupt which is inevitable anyway.

Bailouts only make Europe weaker.

Many economists have said this..they argued for less spending, more production and savings, savings are where capital comes from.

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Someone on here recently said that if a business needs to borrow money in order to keep it running, it's not a viable business.

That someone never ran a business then. Or else they ran it into the ground. You cannot run anything, from a small enterprise to a nation state without debt.

How exactly does borrowing more money solve a debt problem?

Seriously, this is simple accountancy. If I owe somebody €1 million at 10%, and am struggling with that debt, it makes complete sense to borrow a million of someone else at 8% to pay off the original lender. I still owe the same amount, but the interest is a full 2% lower.

Yes, I agree! which is precisely why the country shouldn't be bailed out.

Who pays Stavros then?

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

Then there is you...yeah, who are you? nobody.

A realist. Why would anyone ever lend to you again if you had screwed them out of the money they had lent you last time? Can Max answer that?

northwest100

Einhard wrote:

That someone never ran a business then. Or else they ran it into the ground. You cannot run anything, from a small enterprise to a nation state without debt.

China?

Seriously, this is simple accountancy. If I owe somebody €1 million at 10%, and am struggling with that debt, it makes complete sense to borrow a million of someone else at 8% to pay off the original lender. I still owe the same amount, but the interest is a full 2% lower.

Russia offered Greece $50 billion no strings attached loan at 4%, China also showed an interest in helping out.

Who pays Stavros then?

Not the Greek people, since as you rightly said, it was the greek governments and their collusion with corrupt financial sectors who have caused this mess.

A realist. Why would anyone ever lend to you again if you had screwed them out of the money they had lent you last time? Can Max answer that?

Why don't you ask him? I'm sure he'd be quite happy and able to debate you on Greece.

Einhard

I'm not advocating for the bailout, but against the irrational and dangerous notion that governments can just renege on their debts without any consequences. Your line of thinking holds that the Greeks can unilaterally stiff their creditors, then continue on as if nothing happened. This is ideological wish fulfillment and nothing less.

northwest100

then continue on as if nothing happened

Of course there will be many problems, but it's necessary!
If they can't borrow money from another country, tough.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

China?

China needed massive investment and loans in order to open her economy in the first place. And she will need loans again in future.

Russia offered Greece $50 billion no strings attached loan at 4%, China also showed an interest in helping out.

So borrowing does help solve a debt problem? It seems e can agree on that at least.

BTW, you'd want to be pretty naive to believe that Russia ever acts purely from altruism. If it were such a great deal, why didn't the Greeks accept it?

Not the Greek people, since as you rightly said, it was the greek governments and their collusion with corrupt financial sectors who have caused this mess.

Will you please stop with this nonsense. The Greeek people elected the Greek government. Seriously, did you have a Civics class in school? And it wasn't Goldman Sachs who led the Greek government by the nose, but the Greek government who instructed Goldman to fiddle the books. And this was a SOCIALIST administration!!

Euro_Kraut

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That is true. Fair play for not burning people. I was never comfortable with non-libertarians pro-arson stance.

northwest100

The bailout for Greece only ensures Goldman Sachs and other wallstreet fraudsters collect their fat million dollar bonuses at the end of the year, all at the expense of the Greek people..

It would be nice to have a discussion without being constantly labelled a "socialist" or "communist"
I could call you pro-kleptocrat Einhard or pro-oligarch but it's only a distraction from the real issue here.

Fraud pays.

blue_steel

rightwingdub wrote: »

Also public sector strikes should be banned, any public sector workers that go on strike should be fired and deprived of the right to social welfare, the government should impose martial law throughout all major towns and cities and there should be an 8pm curfew and no protests of more than 10 people should be allowed to take place, the trade unions must be crushed in Greece.

Rightwingdub? As in compared to Hitler?

Scarab80

northwest100 wrote: »

The bailout for Greece only ensures Goldman Sachs and other wallstreet fraudsters collect their fat million dollar bonuses at the end of the year, all at the expense of the Greek people..

It would be nice to have a discussion without being constantly labelled a "socialist" or "communist"
I could call you pro-kleptocrat Einhard or pro-oligarch but it's only a distraction from the real issue here.

Fraud pays.

Seeing as Goldman's total worldwide net income is $3.2bn which represents about 5% of one year of Greece's deficit will you concede that there may be some bigger problems there than wall street bankers bonuses?

blue_steel

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Simple. Default and pay for whatever services you can afford without the burden of debt repayment and with a functional tax system (where the major issue is PRIVATE sector evasion).
It worked well for Argentina in 2002 (dispite the IMF claiming the country would cease to exist within six months). The path being taken now will only benefit Wall Street and the IMF and not the Greek people (or even the EU).

Einhard

northwest100 wrote: »

If they can't borrow money from another country, tough.

Do you even know what your original position was any more? If they can't borrow money, the country goes bankrupt. The Greek people suffer. The very people who you seem to think wuld derive some benefit from a Greek default.

danbohan

rightwingdub wrote: »

Also public sector strikes should be banned, any public sector workers that go on strike should be fired and deprived of the right to social welfare, the government should impose martial law throughout all major towns and cities and there should be an 8pm curfew and no protests of more than 10 people should be allowed to take place, the trade unions must be crushed in Greece.

which is exactly what should be done with the public sector unions here too if the dont fall in line

northwest100

Einhard wrote:

Do you even know what your original position was any more? If they can't borrow money, the country goes bankrupt. The Greek people suffer. The very people who you seem to think wuld derive some benefit from a Greek default.

They're bankrupt anyway! otherwise they wouldn't be asking for a handout, would they?

And it's not like Greece couldn't do business with other countries even if the germans,french or americans refused.

Countries like Greece and Ireland don't produce and export enough anymore for their economy or "business" to be viable, that's why we're constantly borrowing money.

So, i'm against the welfare state and huge payments to our government and public sector..and when the IMF do come here, should i stay and work to pay off those debts?

Let Greece go bankrupt, the people will be better off in the long term.

The bailout is just a reward to the banks who've caused these problems.. so the boys in Goldman can collect nice christmas bonus...oh they've earned it, haven't they? :rolleyes:

rightwingdub

blue_steel wrote: »

Rightwingdub? As in compared to Hitler?

People who work for the federal government are forbidden by law to go on strike, remember when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers in 1981:D, he put manners on the trade unions.

Yes I believe public sector strikes should be banned in Ireland, the trade unions along with the bankers are a cancerous affliction on the Irish economy.