Lessons from Greece Part the nth...

I notice a lot of the Public Sector lads who were getting very loud around here and quietened up in recent days - perhaps because they're silently hoping the vote is rejected or perhaps they're looking at the madness that is Greece and their 'entitled' population.

When you promised to bring the country to it's knees, did you mean Greek style?

I really think that if this deal is rejected, or if any strikes are hinted at, that we should get out and support the government en mass in their cutbacks and reforms. We have a chance now to finally set Ireland on a sensible course that ensures sustainable growth and fiscal rectitude for the coming future, a move that will benefit everyone in this country for generations to come. Including the PS. We need to let the opposition parties know this too - they won't be getting the (hopefully) sensible majorities vote if they're planning an election campaign based on expensive promises.

Paulzx

Jesus. You want to connect the fire bombing of a bank in Athens and the resultant death of 3 people to the economic situation in Ireland.

There hasn't been one incidence of violent protest in Ireland yet whilst the greeks have been out every second day.

Is there anything you won't accuse the Public sector of?

DidierMc

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I notice a lot of the Public Sector lads who were getting very loud around here and quietened up in recent days - perhaps because they're silently hoping the vote is rejected or perhaps they're looking at the madness that is Greece and their 'entitled' population.

When you promised to bring the country to it's knees, did you mean Greek style?

I really think that if this deal is rejected, or if any strikes are hinted at, that we should get out and support the government en mass in their cutbacks and reforms. We have a chance now to finally set Ireland on a sensible course that ensures sustainable growth and fiscal rectitude for the coming future, a move that will benefit everyone in this country for generations to come. Including the PS. We need to let the opposition parties know this too - they won't be getting the (hopefully) sensible majorities vote if they're planning an election campaign based on expensive promises.

Yes i can just see the public getting out on the street and marching in support of Fianna Fáil, Cowen, NAMA and cutbacks to health and education.

Sorry but you're on your own there son

thebaldsoprano

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

we should get out and support the government en mass

Public spending does need to be cut back alright but that's pushing it...

Funkfield

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

we should get out and support the government en mass

Your real name wouldn't be Cowen would it?

Permabear

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murphaph

Stupid idiots...
Me and the GF booked our 2 weeks in the sun today. We had talked about Greece, one of the islands probably, last year and were still likely to go up until a week or so ago when we decided to give it a miss, not because we thought it would get so serious that they'd start firebombing innocent people to death, but because we feared a general strike could leave us stranded there.

So the Greek protests (supported by a few loonies on this very forum) have led directly to the loss to the Greek economy of our couple of grand and God knows how many more people have cancelled their plans for a Greek holiday this year. I'm sure they are going to lose many millions from the summer season this year.

DidierMc

murphaph wrote: »

Stupid idiots...
Me and the GF booked our 2 weeks in the sun today. We had talked about Greece, one of the islands probably, last year and were still likely to go up until a week or so ago when we decided to give it a miss, not because we thought it would get so serious that they'd start firebombing innocent people to death, but because we feared a general strike could leave us stranded there.

So the Greek protests (supported by a few loonies on this very forum) have led directly to the loss to the Greek economy of our couple of grand and God knows how many more people have cancelled their plans for a Greek holiday this year. I'm sure they are going to lose many millions from the summer season this year.

LOL!

danman

Is this the sort of protest that has been called for on this very forum.
To think of the amount of times that people have expressed their dissappointment that similar protests never materialised.

I have never voted for FF and I have always spoken out when they have done wrong. But the last thing I want is a massive showdown from the PS with the general public giving the politicians of this country the view that they are indifferent. I'm sure there's an awful lot of Greek people who know that the country is fúcked and have a permanent rolleyes on their face when they see and hear what is going on around them - but the international markets don't see this side and the European governments who are providing the bailout package don't see this (even a lot of us Irish are wondering why we're bailing out these basket cases).

And to link what's going on in Greece to a possibility for Ireland, perhaps not the riots but the striking and attitudes of entitlement in general, isn't exactly far flung.


Oh and just to add to this, I must admit that Lenihan has gained my utmost respect. He's working his ass off to try and get this country back on track, and to see how ill he looked on the news last night - he was propping himself up on a bin - was extremely sad.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Anything at all? No exceptions?

Nijmegen

murphaph wrote: »

Stupid idiots...
Me and the GF booked our 2 weeks in the sun today. We had talked about Greece, one of the islands probably, last year and were still likely to go up until a week or so ago when we decided to give it a miss, not because we thought it would get so serious that they'd start firebombing innocent people to death, but because we feared a general strike could leave us stranded there.

So the Greek protests (supported by a few loonies on this very forum) have led directly to the loss to the Greek economy of our couple of grand and God knows how many more people have cancelled their plans for a Greek holiday this year. I'm sure they are going to lose many millions from the summer season this year.

Myself and the missus made the very same decision.

changes

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I really think that if this deal is rejected, or if any strikes are hinted at, that we should get out and support the government en mass in their cutbacks and reforms. We have a chance now to finally set Ireland on a sensible course that ensures sustainable growth and fiscal rectitude for the coming future, a move that will benefit everyone in this country for generations to come. Including the PS. We need to let the opposition parties know this too - they won't be getting the (hopefully) sensible majorities vote if they're planning an election campaign based on expensive promises.

Get out and support who did you say??? This government :rolleyes:. All is forgiven then so long as they kick your enemy (The PS).

Are you not even mildly embarrassed to be jumping in behind the very government who lead us to ruin?

Read my second post.

To quote an excellent post from Murphaph:

Do we have the guts to take our medicine (FF and the nasty bankers didn't cause this alone....the general populace lapped it up and couldn't get into debt quick enough to buy that (now obsolete) plasma TV) or are we going to be like the Greeks, rioting and making arses out of ourselves (we have already done that by repeatedly voting in FF and for paying 300k for a shoebox style, shoddily built apartment).

full post here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65712412&postcount=4


Like I said, I'm no FF fanboy, but I dread to think how a Labour/coalition with Labour government would handle the current situation.

fontanalis

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Read my second post.

To quote an excellent post from Murphaph:



full post here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65712412&postcount=4


Like I said, I'm no FF fanboy, but I dread to think how a Labour/coalition with Labour government would handle the current situation.

I heard they didn't read a report on Anglo, said the banks ddin't need capitalisation, have some crazy idea called NAMA and had a tent at the galway races populated with people who confused debt with wealth.

ardmacha

We have a chance now to finally set Ireland on a sensible course that ensures sustainable growth and fiscal rectitude for the coming future, a move that will benefit everyone in this country for generations to come.

Typical strategy. Propose something that everyone can agree with and then put forward any subsequent nonsense as being in line with this, when in fact it is moving in the opposite direction.

Taxipete29

I opened a thread about the 3 dead in Greece and the OP is about the Irish PS.

Why am I not surprised :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

I hope to god FF serve out their full term! or do I? lets see FG and Labor get in, take no action, the IMF / EU step in and right alot of the wrongs, that no Gov here ever will! I honestly dont know which Id prefer!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

rightwingdub

Idbatterim wrote: »

I hope to god FF serve out their full term! or do I? lets see FG and Labor get in, take no action, the IMF / EU step in and right alot of the wrongs, that no Gov here ever will! I honestly dont know which Id prefer!

I'd prefer the EU/IMF came in and the gave the public finances a good kick up the arse as well as the trade unions.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok, but while there are unquestionably PS workers who deserve(d) to have their pay cut (and many who do not deserve their jobs at all), not every PS employee does. By using a single blunt instrument across the entire sector, the government has generated a lot of disillusionment.

Take third-level institutions for example - on the one hand the government is espousing the virtues of our mythical knowledge-based economy, while on the other, technicians, researchers and lecturers are having their pay slashed. The point is, not every action that results in a reduction in the PS wage bill is necessarily a wise one.

rightwingdub

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, but while there are unquestionably PS workers who deserve(d) to have their pay cut (and many who do not deserve their jobs at all), not every PS employee does. By using a single blunt instrument across the entire sector, the government has generated a lot of disillusionment.

Take third-level institutions for example - on the one hand the government is espousing the virtues of our mythical knowledge-based economy, while on the other, technicians, researchers and lecturers are having their pay slashed. The point is, not every action that results in a reduction in the PS wage bill is necessarily a wise one.

There is no other alternative if these public sector workers were working in a virtually banrupt private sector company then they would have had no other alternative but to accept pay cuts.

Nijmegen

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, but while there are unquestionably PS workers who deserve(d) to have their pay cut (and many who do not deserve their jobs at all), not every PS employee does. By using a single blunt instrument across the entire sector, the government has generated a lot of disillusionment.

Take third-level institutions for example - on the one hand the government is espousing the virtues of our mythical knowledge-based economy, while on the other, technicians, researchers and lecturers are having their pay slashed. The point is, not every action that results in a reduction in the PS wage bill is necessarily a wise one.

The issue is that there is a collective union stance: Cut one and we all strike.

I think everyone involved in trying to make a reformed public sector wants this, but the unions and the governments past have given us a system where you can't touch one soul.

Example: (Real story), PA to a Director in a state body keeps her position after the Director has left, and no new Director hired due to the freeze. What does she do all day? Well, whatever.

Another example: A clinic for diabetes patients in Blanchardstown is shortly to shut down, because the nurses have left (there was three, the remaining nurse is moving on now.) The administration staff involved? None of them have left.

djpbarry

rightwingdub wrote: »

There is no other alternative...

Of course there is: treat each PS worker as an individual, rather than lumping them all together as a homogeneous population, and assess every worker's current pay/conditions individually. I know the unions would never agree, but it is an alternative nevertheless.

EDIT: Yeah, what Nijmegen said.

danman

djpbarry wrote: »

Ok, but while there are unquestionably PS workers who deserve(d) to have their pay cut (and many who do not deserve their jobs at all), not every PS employee does. By using a single blunt instrument across the entire sector, the government has generated a lot of disillusionment.

Take third-level institutions for example - on the one hand the government is espousing the virtues of our mythical knowledge-based economy, while on the other, technicians, researchers and lecturers are having their pay slashed. The point is, not every action that results in a reduction in the PS wage bill is necessarily a wise one.

I agree totally that cuts shouldn't happen accross the board, but....

As soon as the government move towards the box that holds the scalpel to surgically remove deadwood, the unions slap the box out of their hands and jump up and down in a toddler type hissy fit.

The only impliment they have available is the blunt instrament.

As long as the unions continue to hide behind the frontline essential workers to protect the inefficient workers, the government have no option but to treat the whole PS as one.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Nijmegen

I think we're all in agreement, but are divided by the reality that is the unions barring any rational approach to the management of our public sector.

I don't think any of the PS workers who post on these forums would be in favour of something like what donegalfella suggested. I must be mad of course because to me it seems 100% rational.

rightwingdub

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I don't think any of the PS workers who post on these forums would be in favour of something like what donegalfella suggested. I must be mad of course because to me it seems 100% rational.

We are talking the public sector here, Irish public sector workers these days are not exactly renowned for rational thinking.

Drumpot

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The enemy(government) of my enemy (Unions) is my friend . .

People refer us to Greece because we would of been a lot closer to their collapse had the government not made those cutbacks in the last year. For that and the fact that FF appear to be at least trying to balance the books they deserve SOME credit . .


I should also remember the ten commandments on this topic:

1. Thou shalt never ever give FF credit. This is tantamount to treason as it was all their fault. (I heard they drown puppies before their Ard fheis)
   
2. Thou shalt blame everybody else for the countries woes
3. Thou shalt not speak positively of the Irish Economy
   
4. Thou shalt speak of IMF whenever there is bad news in the media on the EU or Irish economy
   
5. Thou shalt say "those who got us into this mess, shouldn't be the ones trying to get us out of this mess" that pretty much wins any debate on the economy or FF or Bankers or Jedward.
6. Thou shalt say "I didnt cause this recession" (as if the rest of Ireland did!) when somebody says we all have to pay for the country to get back on track or suggests that people need to wake up to the state of the country.
   
7. Thou shalt covet thy neighbors possessions, if they have more then you, you are obviously underpaid or deserve more, or they deserve less, whichever suits your argument.
   
8. Thou shalt never be demanding too much. . If you are used to 1 or 2 holidays a year or going out regularly, it is your entitlement to expect the state to subsidize this without actually looking at your budget. Refer to commandment 6 & 7
   
9. Thou shalt only discuss statistics that back up thy argument. Never awknowledge or concede points that disprove your infallible beliefs.
   
10. Thou shalt constantly be negative towards everything . . Anybody who speaks positive shalt be strook down with great vengeance and furious anger, those who would attempt to poison and destroy thy morbid view of Ireland. And they will know thy name is the Lord when thy lay thy angry replies upon them.

Just on the RTE news: Protesters shouting "We are not Ireland, we will not sacrifice ourselves for the rich". Wow... If only they knew that our PS workers are on multiples of their salaries. Someone on the dole here earns almost as much as their teachers!

yop

I see on the news that they were chanting "we are not Ireland, we don't sell ourselves to the rich"!!! Fukin hell, is that the way it looks to Europe?

Drumpot

yop wrote: »

I see on the news that they were chanting "we are not Ireland, we don't sell ourselves to the rich"!!! Fukin hell, is that the way it looks to Europe?

No . .

That's the way it looks to Greece . A completely deluded self centered country thats spent more then it has,doesn't feel it should pay its dues and expects everybody else to bail them out . . Would you want to give these clowns a loan ?

Put Simply, Greece are on their own (which is why we should be delighted that we are slowly getting our names pushed further and further away from being compared with them) . .

rightwingdub

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Just on the RTE news: Protesters shouting "We are not Ireland, we will not sacrifice ourselves for the rich". Wow... If only they knew that our PS workers are on multiples of their salaries. Someone on the dole here earns almost as much as their teachers!

If they have kids here in Ireland they will earn an awful lot more than Greek teachers, thats the sad fact of things:mad:

danbohan

Drumpot wrote: »

No . .

That's the way it looks to Greece . A completely deluded self centered country thats spent more then it has,doesn't feel it should pay its dues and expects everybody else to bail them out . . Would you want to give these clowns a loan ?

Put Simply, Greece are on their own (which is why we should be delighted that we are slowly getting our names pushed further and further away from being compared with them) . .

A completely deluded self centered country thats spent more then it has,

i think you will find that applies too us as well , to quote David mcwilliams , a child born in Greece in 2010 owes 23 , a child born in Ireland in 2010 owes 46k
at the moment we are getting away with it , but the loony unions especially the public sector ones could have us in d shttttt in days

ei.sdraob

video:
Greece's economic woes - how did it get this bad?

article:
Greece crisis: Is there an exit?

rightwingdub

danbohan wrote: »

A completely deluded self centered country thats spent more then it has,

i think you will find that applies too us as well , to quote David mcwilliams , a child born in Greece in 2010 owes 23 , a child born in Ireland in 2010 owes 46k
at the moment we are getting away with it , but the loony unions especially the public sector ones could have us in d shttttt in days

Things must be getting so bad here in Ireland that even Jack O'Connor has stopped the sabre rattling and has acknowledged that our economic independence is at stake here. Regular contributors on these threads know my views on an IMF bailout so I don't need to elaborate any further.

Drumpot

danbohan wrote: »

A completely deluded self centered country thats spent more then it has,

i think you will find that applies too us as well , to quote David mcwilliams , a child born in Greece in 2010 owes 23 , a child born in Ireland in 2010 owes 46k
at the moment we are getting away with it , but the loony unions especially the public sector ones could have us in d shttttt in days

Sorry dan . . I do agree with you on your sentiments, but when you mentioned McWilliams you lost me . .

danbohan

Drumpot wrote: »

Sorry dan . . I do agree with you on your sentiments, but when you mentioned McWilliams you lost me . .

sorry drumpot
hes using it to show our level of dept
46000 euro per person in Ireland , 23000 euro per person in Greece

and somebody said Greece is basket case !

cm2000

danbohan wrote: »

sorry drumpot
hes using it to show our level of dept
46000 euro per person in Ireland , 23000 euro per person in Greece

and somebody said Greece is basket case !

I assume that's both public and private debt? and not just public yes?

Drumpot

danbohan wrote: »

sorry drumpot
hes using it to show our level of dept
46000 euro per person in Ireland , 23000 euro per person in Greece

and somebody said Greece is basket case !

Statistics can be used to prove anything . .

All I know is that the world financial markets think that we are currently nowhere near the same level of risk as Greece, you can understand if I trust the world markets over a media "lady of the night" . .

Or Perhaps . . Im just taking a stab in the dark here . . .

Is McWilliams just throwing out random statistics that dont really do anything but articulate something bad about our country that appeals to those who love a good populist statistic to anger the layman . .

Im not questioning his figures, Im questioning his motive for saying what he said . . He is the Katie Price of economics , will say anything to get on TV.

danbohan

Drumpot wrote: »

Statistics can be used to prove anything . .

All I know is that the world financial markets think that we are currently nowhere near the same level of risk as Greece, you can understand if I trust the world markets over a media "lady of the night" . .

Or Perhaps . . Im just taking a stab in the dark here . . .

Is McWilliams just throwing out random statistics that dont really do anything but articulate something bad about our country that appeals to those who love a good populist statistic to anger the layman . .

Im not questioning his figures, Im questioning his motive for saying what he said . . He is the Katie Price of economics , will say anything to get on TV.

haha , hes a bit like count dracula all right , but hes got a lot of things right though, the markets spook easily , it might not take very much to make them look at us in similar light to greece

Drumpot

danbohan wrote: »

haha , hes a bit like count dracula all right , but hes got a lot of things right though, the markets spook easily , it might not take very much to make them look at us in similar light to greece

I know, I agree . . .

Count McWilliams . . . Sounds about right . . .

ardmacha

That's a fair point. I'd be quite happy to see the government devise metrics to adjust pay and staffing levels per profession, based on a number of criteria, such as average OECD wages/staffing levels/working hours for nurses, teachers, university lecturers, etc., average private-sector wages/staffing levels/working hours in Ireland, and current cost of living in this country. If we reached the point where an Irish teacher (for example) could not dispute that she had an income, standard of living, and working conditions commensurate with the average teacher in the OECD, and that her compensation was "fair" in light of what people with similar qualifications/experience are making for similar hours in the private sector, and the same adjustment were made for every profession across the public sector, would you be happy with that?

I mightn't be entirely happy with that, but I would find it hard to marshal an effective argument against it. This is what benchmarking should have been.

There is no evidence whatsoever of this type of rational thinking entering the process.

Scarab80

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think this idea of trying to micromanage how the public service runs from minister level is ridiculous. Collective bargaining and demarkation should be done away with and more power should be given to civil service management to set pay and conditions within a set budget. If departments do well and achieve a certain level of service within budget a portion of these savings should be redistributed back to the employees in bonuses. The bonuses to be given to each employee by their manager based on their performance. Essentially create a hierarchical, service and cost target based structure where pay and promotion is based on performance and more power is devloved to middle management giving them a sense of ownership over their jobs.

One would hope that the Croke park deal may lead towards this type of system as the governement have shifted the responsibility of cost savings to the public servants in return for the pay freeze.

The only people who stand to lose from this kind of arrangement are the lazy...

changes

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Donegalfella,

If you were to ask any public servant all being equal do you think it would be acceptable that you earn a similar wage to what your german or french counterpart earns. You would probably find they would say yes all being equal.

The trouble is that wages and the standard of living, housing costs etc have been allowed to get so out of kilter with those other countries. That to come down now would mean a large relative drop in their standard of living (at least thats the perception). Consequently they will resist and say no chance!

Its never easy to take back from people what they have been given. It was foolishness on the part of the FF government to allow wages get so high in the first place. They should have turned down the gas when the property bubble was raging (but they did the opposite).

Bottom line is there won't be payrises in the PS for about a decade imo by then we will be in line with the EU averages if not slightly lower. Numbers will drop wages will stay as they are. But PS staff are not going to accept 25/30% drop in income without a fuss (would people really expect otherwise if they are honest with themselves).

doc_17

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I don't think any of the PS workers who post on these forums would be in favour of something like what donegalfella suggested. I must be mad of course because to me it seems 100% rational.

I'd be in favour of it (Teacher). I'd also be in favour of a pay freeze (no increments) as I said previously on one of those other PS bashing threads. Lots of people here have very low opinons of PS workers. Some are bordering on being zealots!!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

djpbarry

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If it included an element of what Scarab80 has described, then yes.

rightwingdub wrote: »

...Irish public sector workers these days are not exactly renowned for rational thinking.

Indeed; doctors and researchers in particular are a terribly irrational bunch, aren't they?

ardmacha

Relative to private-sector workers, public-sector workers are now even better off than they were a few years ago -- even when pay cuts and so on are factored in.

One wonders. Have you any stats on this? In any case one would expect PS workers pay to vary less than private sector pay as more of them work in sectors such as education and health that are non cyclical in nature.

Tiroskan

djpbarry wrote: »

Of course there is: treat each PS worker as an individual, rather than lumping them all together as a homogeneous population, and assess every worker's current pay/conditions individually. I know the unions would never agree, but it is an alternative nevertheless.

EDIT: Yeah, what Nijmegen said.

The worst bit is, the lower paid workers, who have suffered the most and still have the most to lose, would (from what I've seen first hand, speaking not as a PS worker but from a family with a number of them) absolutely agree with this. But the unions seem to be run by and for the mid to higher paid members of the PS, who are hiding behind the very people they should be doing their best to protect and support.