Gay Theatre Festival?

jacaranda

I see that something called the "Dublin Gay Theatre Festival" starts this week.

Is it just me, or why does anyone need a "gay" theatre festival? Apart from suggesting that gay people need to be separated from non gay people (surely the wrong message as gay people have fought long and hard to be treated as part of mainstream society), in what sense is the "Dublin theatre Festival" need to have a rival festival for gay people?

I am suspicious of the current fashion to take an event, and create a new even by inserting the word "gay" into the title.

faceman

Im not familiar with the festival but perhaps the festival focuses on issues relevent to the gay community. Not really sure what your issue is with it though.

jacaranda

faceman wrote: »

Im not familiar with the festival but perhaps the festival focuses on issues relevent to the gay community. Not really sure what your issue is with it though.

I suppose my issue is that we've spent literally years and decades fighting for the right of gay people to be treated as normal, and now we seem to be reversing that trend and saying that, in this instance, the Dublin theatre Festival is not enough so gay people have to be treated separately and have to have the "Dublin Gay theatre festival" . Or the Gay Dublin Film festival. And now I hear there is to be a gay music festival too (apparently called "milk").

Quite apart for the fact that it is absurd to have a gay theatre festival, or gay music festival, (imagine the (quite right) howls of protest if someone else did the "straight theatre festival" or a "straight music festival"), but, in addition, I don't think it is good for society to keep emphasising that gay people are separate and distinct from society.

After years of being ostracised and legislated against, just when we get to the point that gay people are part of our society, it seems curious that gay people themselves want to stress their differences and appear to want to separate themselves from society.

Spore

Well according to your argument the problem lies with the gay community themselves. I also thought it a bit absurd that we have these segregational festivals but maybe the gay community feel that there's a continual hostile reaction to gay events in the normal establishment programs... I don't know.

Personally I don't care. I'd like to think that we should have singular events that are inclusive of all interpretations and persuasions, I only care that the guiding credo be art and the end result is integrity, professionalism and competence.

But maybe there's a deeper issue here, is there a romantic attachment to being 'stigmatised'? Maybe some people just prefer the 'outsider' appeal and actually promote their own segregation? Who knows?

lukegriffen

OP, I can see where you're coming from, and I remember asking the same question re. gay literature. And really, you could probably say that the gay community is involved in all levels/roles & in all types of theatre, but ask yourself how many plays have you seen in the last year or two which had gay themes - I go to a lot of theatre and you see very little.

The gay theatre festival isn't about segregation, it's about promoting positive aspects - and it helps new gay writers gain confidence to pen their story, and for the gay community here to see touring plays, in a comfortable / relaxed environment. Sometimes the connection is very tenuous, it may be written or performed by a gay person, or have gay characters in it.

There are actually 2 gay theatre festivals running concurrently - the original one is gaytheatre.ie (running 7 years so it's not exactly 'new') and the 2nd one is absolutgaytheatre.ie

The best show I've seen so far is "love unbecoming a lady" - go see it, you won't see another show like it this year.
Or the Laramie project is brilliant - I saw it about 7 years ago. It's a fantastic script.

L
PS. In case it matters, I'm not involved in either festival and I'm not gay.

jacaranda

How can you say the gay theatre festival isn't about segregation? Either its about gay writers ( ie segregating them from non gay writers) or about gay audiences (ie segregating them from non gay audiences). I'm not sure in what sense it's a gay theatre festival, but if its not gay in a segregationist sense, why call it the gay theatre festival?

Its as absurd to have a gay theatre festival as it would be to have a lesbian poncho knitting theatre festival or an all bran eating theatre festival. Theatre is theatre, and does not discriminate against authors or audiences on the basis of their sexual preference. To have a special theatre for gay people is, by very definition, segregationist.

That's what I find unattractive about it, as I believe in being inclusive and not in being segregationist.

lukegriffen

It's not segregationist - non-gay people are allowed view, participate & submit works to the festival.

why have french/polish/spanish film festivals -are they segregationist?

It doesn't sound like you're going to see anything in it, so I'm not going to waste any more time trying to convince you.

jacaranda

lukegriffen wrote: »

It's not segregationist - non-gay people are allowed view, participate & submit works to the festival.

why have french/polish/spanish film festivals -are they segregationist?

It doesn't sound like you're going to see anything in it, so I'm not going to waste any more time trying to convince you.

If non gay people are allowed view, participate and submit works to the festival, why is it called the "Dublin gay theatre festival?

And what is the difference between the "dublin gay theatre festival" and the "dublin theatre festival"?

X-Calibre

jacaranda wrote: »

If non gay people are allowed view, participate and submit works to the festival, why is it called the "Dublin gay theatre festival?

And what is the difference between the "dublin gay theatre festival" and the "dublin theatre festival"?

Because all the plays are either written by a gay author, or deal with gay issues. I don't see why you would have such an issue with it. It's obviously just trying to bring gay issues to a wider audience, not segregate them from straight audiences.

Similar to how you might find something like, to take a made up example, a Russian music festival in Dublin, which purpose would be to expose Russian music to a new audience and not to segregate Russian music from all other types.

jacaranda

X-Calibre wrote: »

Because all the plays are either written by a gay author, or deal with gay issues. I don't see why you would have such an issue with it. It's obviously just trying to bring gay issues to a wider audience, not segregate them from straight audiences.

Similar to how you might find something like, to take a made up example, a Russian music festival in Dublin, which purpose would be to expose Russian music to a new audience and not to segregate Russian music from all other types.

So we need a theatre festival, a gay theatre festival, and the absolute gay theatre festival. I wonder how long it will be before we have the lesbian poncho knitting theatre festival, a no doubt essential viewing to enable us all to explore the gay lesbian poncho knitting authors and deal with the issues facing the lesbian poncho knitting community.

DingosAteMyBaby

To be honest I don't see what the problem is. There are many sub-cultures in todays society. Just turn on the TV and you will see particular niche channels for different religions and different ethnicitys. In America they have awards shows celebrating only black people and their achievements. It is nothing to do with wanting equal rights then segregating from society, it is about celebrating and highlighting issues that affect a particular part of society.

DingosAteMyBaby

jacaranda wrote: »

So we need a theatre festival, a gay theatre festival, and the absolute gay theatre festival. I wonder how long it will be before we have the lesbian poncho knitting theatre festival, a no doubt essential viewing to enable us all to explore the gay lesbian poncho knitting authors and deal with the issues facing the lesbian poncho knitting community.

You really aren't listening to what people are saying are you. I suppose we should get rid of Seachtain na Gaeilge too and re-name it "Week to celebrate every single language in the world".

inisboffin

jacaranda wrote: »

I suppose my issue is that we've spent literally years and decades fighting for the right of gay people to be treated as normal, .

This sentence kind of says a lot OP..
Normal??:rolleyes:

And by the way I think you're on to something with "the lesbian poncho knitting theatre festival" - can we have it West Cork? Are the ponchos made from lesbian sheep wool or is it the knitters?

jacaranda

Gay men spent many years being persecuted and tortured by the rest of society, causing them misery and making them break the law and lie to all around them, risking imprisonment and public humiliation for their homosexuality, forcing them to live separate and secret lives.

Now that we have reached a point where gay men have near equality, and acceptance, with the rest of the society, it seems obvious that the goal is to further integrate with everyone else in society in an attempt to ensure that homosexuality is seen and treated as a normal part of life.

The fact is many who see or hear of the "gay theatre festival" have assumed its only for gay people, and the message some have taken from it is that gay people are different, and are separate from everyone else.

I don't like anything that sends out a message that homosexuality is not normal, and not part of normal society, just as i don't like groups for black people as someone mentioned here, for the same reason.

Simply to say that, because it's open to all, seems to miss the point that there are many I have talked to who have assumed its for gay people only. I'm all for theatre, and wish the organisers could have come up with a better name which didn't give that message to some, that gay people are different and need their own theatre festival.

Meeja Ireland

jacaranda wrote: »

The fact is many who see or hear of the "gay theatre festival" have assumed its only for gay people, and the message some have taken from it is that gay people are different, and are separate from everyone else.

I don't like anything that sends out a message that homosexuality is not normal, and not part of normal society, just as i don't like groups for black people as someone mentioned here, for the same reason.

Simply to say that, because it's open to all, seems to miss the point that there are many I have talked to who have assumed its for gay people only.

Where on earth did you dig up these "many people" who so fundamentally misunderstand the nature of events with a theme? They seem extraordinarily dim.

jacaranda

A lot of people may be extraordinarily dim, and that seems to miss the point.

inisboffin

So you wouldn't be against an 'extraordinarily dim theatre festival'? Because it seems that to you they are a valid group, whose needs should be expressed.

I give up. Just don't go to it if you don't like it, that's how it works. If you object radically, then write letters, protest, go on Joe Duffy. If you are that passionate about having a voice then do it. Obviously the people putting on the festival, going to it and producing in it, felt passionate enough about having festival, a need that they *did* something about it.
Personally I think you'll be missing some extraordinary theatrical presentations, but it is your choice.

Meeja Ireland

inisboffin wrote: »

Personally I think you'll be missing some extraordinary theatrical presentations, but it is your choice.

That's the key point, I guess.

I saw some really goods shows in the festival last year, including a great play by Elizabeth Moynihan. I mention hers particularly because she has another show on this year, which I am sorry to have to miss.

Some of the cabaret acts look hilarious too.

inisboffin

Elizabeth is excellent, will miss this year's offering too I fear:( but people should check out her work for sure.

jacaranda

inisboffin wrote: »

So you wouldn't be against an 'extraordinarily dim theatre festival'? Because it seems that to you they are a valid group, whose needs should be expressed.

I give up. Just don't go to it if you don't like it, that's how it works. If you object radically, then write letters, protest, go on Joe Duffy. If you are that passionate about having a voice then do it. Obviously the people putting on the festival, going to it and producing in it, felt passionate enough about having festival, a need that they *did* something about it.
Personally I think you'll be missing some extraordinary theatrical presentations, but it is your choice.

This thread isn't about me.

If you choose to misrepresent the arguments I have made, and attack me personally, that is your choice.

Mrs Thatcher once said ; " I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly personal and wounding because I think, well, if you attack one personally, it means you have not a single argument left."

inisboffin

As they say in improv 'and scene....'

Oh not personal at all, I assure you, just directed to your arguments.

oh...and when Maggie is quoted on a thread relating to gay related issues then Armageddon is truly upon us *lol*

bilinomates

jacaranda wrote: »

Gay men spent many years being persecuted and tortured by the rest of society, causing them misery and making them break the law and lie to all around them, risking imprisonment and public humiliation for their homosexuality, forcing them to live separate and secret lives.

Now that we have reached a point where gay men have near equality, and acceptance, with the rest of the society, it seems obvious that the goal is to further integrate with everyone else in society in an attempt to ensure that homosexuality is seen and treated as a normal part of life.

Where are all the gay women in your argument? If equality is of such massive concern why have you left out 50% of the gay community?

I agree with the other posters who've pointed out that this festival is all about putting gay themed theater, gay writers, performers etc... to the fore. Its great! I'll be going to a few performances I hope.

I went to tradfest and found it a fantastic festival to promote trad, I particularly enjoyed seeing all the tourists taking part in the open air céilí in meeting house sq.

There was a dance festival last week which, according to your logic, should not have been needed as there is plenty of dancing within music festivals.

I support international womens day as its important to highlight womens issues considering that we're nowhere near equal in many ways yet and our thoughts & experiences of the world differ from mens but are not always acknowledged or incorporated into society (if you disagree with me there then check out the Irish constitution at this link and find article 41.2 which STILL states that womens place is in the home!!!!! http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/static/256.htm).

Lets not forget that if we're to believe that gay culture is now completely mainstream there's no need to have any gay & gay friendly bars now is there?....

Also, if we stop acknowledging that the gay community encounters the world differently than the straight community then the process of obtaining equal rights for the gay community will stall forever. You've mentioned years of campaigning for equality like the struggle is over! One example is that gay people cannot marry in this country!

I take your point that being gay should not be seen as being defined as 'other' and instead it should just be seen as a regular part of the make-up of society however after all those years of silence and segregation its a good thing to be able to celebrate peoples sexuality openly and without shame. Embracing difference is not segregation.

You should check out the festival's website http://www.gaytheatre.ie/about/aims_ambitions/

lukegriffen

inisboffin wrote: »

Elizabeth is excellent, will miss this year's offering too I fear:( but people should check out her work for sure.

I saw Slaughterhouse Swan (E. Moynihan's play) and thought the opening scene(s) were really great. I don't think it's quite the finished article though, and a longer full-length play (rather than 60) might have worked better.

The gay theatre festivals end tomorrow, so last chance.
The IDGTF (gaytheatre.ie) is in its 7th year, so this isn't a new festival. It had its 1400th performance this year. It's the 1st year for the absolutgaytheatre

jacaranda

lukegriffen wrote: »

The gay theatre festivals end tomorrow, so last chance.
The IDGTF (gaytheatre.ie) is in its 7th year, so this isn't a new festival. It had its 1400th performance this year. It's the 1st year for the absolutgaytheatre

I wonder how many more years we will have to wait for the lesbian poncho knitting theatre festival. Personally, i can't wait.

Zillah

Here I was thinking this thread might be for discussion of the festival complete with reccomendations and criticisms. Oh well.

jacaranda, you realise there is a difference between treating people equally and pretending that we're all the same, right?

Gay people deal with many different issues in life that are unique to them; coming out, living lies, homophobia etc just to name a few. The purpose of this festival is to give people the opportunity to explore and express these concepts publicly to a degree that we simply do not see in mainstream theatre. The exact same argument goes for gay film festivals. Festivals like these are about giving a voice to people who normally do not have one.

Speaking as a gay person, we don't need a straight person white knighting for us against a festival designed to empower us. That just makes no sense, and it's more than a little condescending. Not to mention irritating.

jacaranda

Zillah wrote: »

Here I was thinking this thread might be for discussion of the festival complete with reccomendations and criticisms. Oh well.

jacaranda, you realise there is a difference between treating people equally and pretending that we're all the same, right?

Gay people deal with many different issues in life that are unique to them; coming out, living lies, homophobia etc just to name a few. The purpose of this festival is to give people the opportunity to explore and express these concepts publicly to a degree that we simply do not see in mainstream theatre. The exact same argument goes for gay film festivals. Festivals like these are about giving a voice to people who normally do not have one.

Speaking as a gay person, we don't need a straight person white knighting for us against a festival designed to empower us. That just makes no sense, and it's more than a little condescending. Not to mention irritating.

You say "speaking as a gay person, we .." which seems to imply you consider you are speaking on behalf of others.

I can only speak for myself, and whether or not I may be gay is not relevant. For you to appear to assume that I am not gay merely appears to show your own prejudice.

I've already made the point that a lot of people fought long and hard for the rights of gay people to be the same as everyone else, and to turn back that clock and have separate events for gay people, or to give the impression that gay people are somehow different and need their own events, seems to be the wrong message and the wrong attitude.

People are people and gay and non gay people all deal with many different issues in life that are unique to them. Its ironic indeed that so many people claim special status for gay people, while at the same time wanting to be treated just like everyone else.

The truth is that gay people are just like everyone else, and the dichotomy is that, just at the point where gay people are pretty well accepted as being the same, and as society as a whole is close to enshrining that in law, there appear to be some gay people who don't want to be treated as the same and appear to want to be treated differently.

Perhaps the greatest truth of all, that gay people are just the same as everyone else, is just a truth too far for some gay people. Perhaps their greatest fear is that the are just ordinary, like everyone else.

Meeja Ireland

Zillah wrote: »

Here I was thinking this thread might be for discussion of the festival complete with reccomendations and criticisms. Oh well.

That does sound a lot more enjoyable. Did you get to see anything?

Sir Ophiuchus

bilinomates wrote: »

I take your point that being gay should not be seen as being defined as 'other' and instead it should just be seen as a regular part of the make-up of society however after all those years of silence and segregation its a good thing to be able to celebrate peoples sexuality openly and without shame. Embracing difference is not segregation.

That says it perfectly. Thank you.

Zillah

jacaranda wrote: »

I've already made the point that a lot of people fought long and hard for the rights of gay people to be the same as everyone else

No, not the same as everyone else. People have fought long and hard to be given equal rights. Again, there is a huge and important difference between being the same and being treated equally.

Perhaps the greatest truth of all, that gay people are just the same as everyone else, is just a truth too far for some gay people. Perhaps their greatest fear is that the are just ordinary, like everyone else.

You seem to have gotten confused, thinking that admitting that any group of people are different to the majority means that they are some how worse. Not everyone assumes that being normal is inherently desirable as you do. As I said before, gay people have many things that are unique to their lives, incluing homophobia, coming out, struggling for acceptance, fighting for the right to marry etc. You can sit there and keep repeating your ignorant opinion that such festivals are somehow discriminatory, but you're just wrong, plain and simple. Such festivals give extra air time to these important issues.

Zillah

Meeja Ireland wrote: »

That does sound a lot more enjoyable. Did you get to see anything?

I was so busy that I managed to let most of the festival slip by before I even noticed it had begun. Pity, was looking forward to it.

jacaranda

Zillah wrote: »

No, not the same as everyone else. People have fought long and hard to be given equal rights. Again, there is a huge and important difference between being the same and being treated equally.



You seem to have gotten confused, thinking that admitting that any group of people are different to the majority means that they are some how worse. Not everyone assumes that being normal is inherently desirable as you do. As I said before, gay people have many things that are unique to their lives, incluing homophobia, coming out, struggling for acceptance, fighting for the right to marry etc. You can sit there and keep repeating your ignorant opinion that such festivals are somehow discriminatory, but you're just wrong, plain and simple. Such festivals give extra air time to these important issues.

I never said a gay theatre festival was discriminatory. Everyone has many thing which are unique to their lives. I went last evening to see Barbara & Lisa, a fun event, at the absolute theatre festival. How you can claim such a fun show was an exploration of "these important issues" rather than just a a funny romp and pastiche, seems unclear.

This thread seems to be turning into a you-can't-criticize-me-because-I-am-gay-and-its -been-so-hard-for-me thread. Maybe my off the cuff remark earlier that gay people are just the same as everyone else, with problems and happiness and joys and disappointment and successes and so on is more accurate than I imagined, and maybe the greatest fear of some is that they are just like everyone else.

The funny thing is that it's not true, and everyone is special and not like anyone else.

Zillah

jacaranda wrote: »

This thread seems to be turning into a you-can't-criticize-me-because-I-am-gay-and-its -been-so-hard-for-me thread. Maybe my off the cuff remark earlier that gay people are just the same as everyone else, with problems and happiness and joys and disappointment and successes and so on is more accurate than I imagined, and maybe the greatest fear of some is that they are just like everyone else.

Maybe it's that you're being ignorant and condescending, that you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about and that it's getting very very irritating. You're either an excellent troll or a very dense person.

jacaranda

Zillah wrote: »

Maybe it's that you're being ignorant and condescending, that you have not the slightest clue what you're talking about and that it's getting very very irritating. You're either an excellent troll or a very dense person.

I am sad for you that you have to resort to name calling and avoid any arguement.
Mrs Thatcher once said; " I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly personal and wounding because I think, well, if you attack one personally, it means you have not a single argument left".

inisboffin

Zillah wrote: »

You're either an excellent troll or a very dense person.

Circular reasoning and 'copy and paste' repetition? I would guess the former at this stage.

jacaranda

inisboffin wrote: »

Circular reasoning and 'copy and paste' repetition? I would guess the former at this stage.

If you want to make an argument or discuss, then fire ahead as I love discussion.

If you merely want to to resort to name calling and bonding with other posters who also wish to name call, why do you choose to do it on a message boards website?

Zillah

jacaranda wrote: »

I am sad for you that you have to resort to name calling and avoid any arguement.

I've made my argument, you haven't addressed it. It seems unbecoming to keep repeating myself when you're just not getting it. Resorting to name calling is a satisfying alternative. If you're really insistent on dragging the Performing Arts forum into an ongoing debate about gay people in society then fine. I'll give you the simple version of my argument and we'll see if you can keep up:

1 - There is a difference between being given equal rights and being the same as everyone else. Do you understand this?

2 - Gay people experience things that straight people do not. Do you understand this?

3 - Gay theatre festivals and gay film festivals provide an opportunity to explore these experiences. Do you understand this?

4 - Having a gay theatre festival to explore issues unique to gay people is no different than having an African film festival to explore issues unique to African people. For example, recently Africa Day was celebrated in Iveagh Gardens. Should that simply have been Continent Day? Is it some how excluding African people by giving them a special day?

jacaranda

Zillah wrote: »

I've made my argument, you haven't addressed it. It seems unbecoming to keep repeating myself when you're just not getting it. Resorting to name calling is a satisfying alternative. If you're really insistent on dragging the Performing Arts forum into an ongoing debate about gay people in society then fine. I'll give you the simple version of my argument and we'll see if you can keep up:

How amazingly patronising of you. You seem unable to discuss without being pejorative and patronising, which is a shame, as it seems unlikely you will be able to discuss in a spirit of tolerance. The irony is that, while you plead for tolerance for gay people, you seem to not display much of it yourself.

Zillah wrote: »

1 - There is a difference between being given equal rights and being the same as everyone else. Do you understand this?

I don't think anyone is "the same as everyone else". Your argument seems to be that all gay people are not the same as all non gay people.

While I applaud, and have fought for, equal rights for gay people, I don't agree that all gay people are the same, or that all gay people share the same differences with all non gay people.

Zillah wrote: »

2 - Gay people experience things that straight people do not. Do you understand this?

Its not a matter of understanding it, but a matter of whether i agree that you can speak on behalf of all gay people and state that all gay people experience things which no no gay person has experienced.

I just don't see the world the same way as you appear to. I see the world as being more varied and wonderful than you appear to, insofar as you appear to think that all gay people have similar experiences (they don't) and that no non gay people can have similar experiences.

Zillah wrote: »

3 - Gay theatre festivals and gay film festivals provide an opportunity to explore these experiences. Do you understand this?

Again, it's not a matter of understanding (in the patronising way you ask the question). I think theatre festivals provide opportunities to explore these, and many other, experiences. I don't think only "Gay" theatre festivals can properly explore gay themes.

Zillah wrote: »

4 - Having a gay theatre festival to explore issues unique to gay people is no different than having an African film festival to explore issues unique to African people. For example, recently Africa Day was celebrated in Iveagh Gardens. Should that simply have been Continent Day? Is it some how excluding African people by giving them a special day?

I am not sure how the show I saw, Barbara & Lisa explored issues which are unique to gay people. I'm not sure you do either. Yet you seem to claim it here.

As I've said, I don't think of the world in terms of issues which all gay people suffer from. Some do, and some don't, just like everyone else. You seem to be determined to think you can speak on behalf of all gay people, when many gay people I know would disagree with what you say, and would not accept you speak on their behalf. I may even be gay myself and think that.

We just see the world in different ways and you seem to think that all gay people are alike and have the same issues and problems and experiences, and that no non gay person can have the same or similar issues and problems and experiences.

I can't claim to speak on anyone elses's behalf, as you seem to want to do, but what is apparent from the way you think is that you think gay people should be a distinct group apart from everyone else. I don't, and think the world consists of people of many differences, and that we are all one group. I celebrate difference but not in that it separates us as human beings.

It's fine if you want to think that and I celebrate your right to think it. But you seem not to extend that friendship to anyone who does not agree with you as evidenced with your intolerant and patronising tone.

faceman

Closing the thread. This isnt what the forum is about.

If you want to debate the semantics of holding a Gay Festival with the social and ethical implications of doing it, then please take it to the Humanities forum.