Fantasy Novel

MonkeySocks24

Hello all. I am currently writing a Fantasy novel. I was wondering are there any hardcore die hard fantasy fans out there who can tell me there pet hates in fantasy books and what in their opinion are the 3 must for a fantasy book?

Antilles

My single hardcore hate for the fantasy genre is difficult to pronounce (and therefore remember) names.

ToasterSparks

The Fantasy Novelist's Exam

It might look a bit extreme, but it's definitely worth a good read. At the very least you'll have a clearer idea of the clichés that pop up in most fantasy novels, and hopefully it'll make you think twice before doing/not doing something!

My own personal dislikes? As Antilles said, crazy names are irritating. As are cliché characters such as Wise Old Man and Poor Kid with Crazy Important Destiny. I like having good rules for magic too, that make it feel believable. And not to have a small Ireland-size continent with a desert, rainforest, ice cap and lakelands within 20 miles of each other.

What are good things? As I said, magic realism. I like novels that are set in the real world, not a fantasy one. And antagonists that have a believable reason for being evil and doing what they're doing.

MonkeySocks24

Antilles wrote: »

My single hardcore hate for the fantasy genre is difficult to pronounce (and therefore remember) names.

My pet hate too!! . They always seem to be a spin off from latin which is hard enough in itself but then ad to it, that equals confusion!

ToasterSparks wrote: »

The Fantasy Novelist's Exam

It might look a bit extreme, but it's definitely worth a good read. At the very least you'll have a clearer idea of the clichés that pop up in most fantasy novels, and hopefully it'll make you think twice before doing/not doing something!

My own personal dislikes? As Antilles said, crazy names are irritating. As are cliché characters such as Wise Old Man and Poor Kid with Crazy Important Destiny. I like having good rules for magic too, that make it feel believable. And not to have a small Ireland-size continent with a desert, rainforest, ice cap and lakelands within 20 miles of each other.

What are good things? As I said, magic realism. I like novels that are set in the real world, not a fantasy one. And antagonists that have a believable reason for being evil and doing what they're doing.

Thanks so much for the link. No crazy kid with important destiny , yeah it's been done 100 times. I was just reading a fantasy novel recently that was very guilty of the Continent with deserts either side. There was actually no purpose in the deserts. It just annoyed me. Magic Realism, so basically the traditional Wizards and Witches etc? So no evil just for the sake of it then.

pickarooney

Like with sci-fi, I hate, and don't understand, derivatism (that's not a real word, by the way). There are endless possibilities for the fantasy genre, yet still the majority of books have a very similar scene and setting.

If you can write a book that has absolutely nothing in common with The Lord of the Rings, you'll be off to a good start.

mackeminexile

A well structured and interesting plot with twists. I love it when a major character gets killed unexpectedly. Avoiding the use of the same language and colloquialisms, that really annoys me. A new twist on something thats been done - magic that has limits according to the space around the user a la Priestess of the White type thing. Hope this helps, good luck!

MonkeySocks24

pickarooney wrote: »

Like with sci-fi, I hate, and don't understand, derivatism (that's not a real word, by the way). There are endless possibilities for the fantasy genre, yet still the majority of books have a very similar scene and setting.

If you can write a book that has absolutely nothing in common with The Lord of the Rings, you'll be off to a good start.

Close line between some of the ideas shared with Sci-Fi and Fantasy. I worry because my scene and settings are completely different because most fantasy novels seem to follow the same structure and going completely away from what fantasy readers are used to can be annoying but surely it's better to stray away from what is comfortable than repeat what someone else has wrote but in a different way?!
Nothing like Lord of the Rings

mackeminexile wrote: »

A well structured and interesting plot with twists. I love it when a major character gets killed unexpectedly. Avoiding the use of the same language and colloquialisms, that really annoys me. A new twist on something thats been done - magic that has limits according to the space around the user a la Priestess of the White type thing. Hope this helps, good luck!

Magic that has limits according to space, that is an interesting concept. I really don't like when books revolve around one main character. It can be a bit tedious. Thanks for the feedback

pickarooney

How much of it have you written or even sketched out, as a matter of interest?

MonkeySocks24

pickarooney wrote: »

How much of it have you written or even sketched out, as a matter of interest?

The novel is complete, I just have the heartbreaking task of editing and cutting words that don't need to be there.

pickarooney

MonkeySocks24 wrote: »

The novel is complete, I just have the heartbreaking task of editing and cutting words that don't need to be there.

Well done and good luck in that case. You need to take a deep breath and get busy with the red pen, preferably with someone's honest, objective help. The first cut is the deepest.

MonkeySocks24

pickarooney wrote: »

Well done and good luck in that case. You need to take a deep breath and get busy with the red pen, preferably with someone's honest, objective help. The first cut is the deepest.

The first cut certainly is. I have many people who are there to offer criticism, objective of course the only problem is they are not fantasy lovers. I shall get them red pen it.

irish_goat

I'll add in over-reliance on the same spell/potion/ingredient. Something I've noticed particularly in the Harry Potter books is as soon as a new spell is introduced it's referred to over and over again in that book and any subsequent books. It's not very realistic if the students get taught a spell in Book 5(for example) and then suddenly everyone else starts using it as if they'd only just been taught it as well. At least in some books they make up decent reasons for spells being "discovered" and so not appearing in earlier books.

MonkeySocks24

irish_goat wrote: »

I'll add in over-reliance on the same spell/potion/ingredient. Something I've noticed particularly in the Harry Potter books is as soon as a new spell is introduced it's referred to over and over again in that book and any subsequent books. It's not very realistic if the students get taught a spell in Book 5(for example) and then suddenly everyone else starts using it as if they'd only just been taught it as well. At least in some books they make up decent reasons for spells being "discovered" and so not appearing in earlier books.

Good point. I've noticed in HP books that ingredients are recycled.

af_thefragile

I think fantasy novels should reflect a part of the current human condition to be good fantasy. If its plain wizards, demons and tramps with no deeper meaning to it all, then I'm not very fond of it.

Sort of why I'm not a fan of Harry Porter. Its just something for kids to fantasize about. Though Alice in Worlderland was that as well. But I guess the weirdness of that book redeems itself...

up for anything

If you are thinking of 'volumising' please don't. Fantasy readers also need to be millionaires in order to fund their habit. And usually by book 5 the main character is no longer an old friend but a tedious bore.

Also it would be wonderful to conceive a fantasy world that doesn't parallel the real world. Poorly disguised continents and races are becoming a real turn off to me.

Well done on finishing a book and I hope you have huge success with it. Don't forget discounts for boards.ie users.

Macca3000

mackeminexile wrote: »

A well structured and interesting plot with twists. I love it when a major character gets killed unexpectedly. Avoiding the use of the same language and colloquialisms, that really annoys me. A new twist on something thats been done - magic that has limits according to the space around the user a la Priestess of the White type thing. Hope this helps, good luck!

I really like Trudi Canavans books. She manages to write rules for magic the characters use. Like in Priestess of the White it's about environment and the strenght of the surrounding environment and the characters ability to harness it.
Actually check out her website. She gives interesting tips on writing.

pickarooney

The scope for unusual erotic encounters is boundless in fantasy. More writers should make use of it.

ToasterSparks

As I said, magic realism is very important.

Examples of failing to be realistic include:

[1] Time Turners in Harry Potter. I mean WTF - Voldemort just steal one of them and go back and get someone else to kill HP as a baby! Time travel is a great concept if you make clear rules and make sure there's no obvious loopholes (the whole Harry Potter Azkaban time travelling thing didn't work properly at all).

[2]Varying the power of elemental spells wildly. For example, one minute you're too weak to summon a flame, the next minute you're using a hidden power reserve to make a volcano erupt. Or little kids that discover they have magic powers, and within a week are more adept at using said powers that the evil henchmen/seasoned magicians. Not realistic.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

Make sure its a strong ending... I hate reading over a 1000 pages only to discover that they throw the ring into a pit of lava - what an anticlimax??? (Not a huge Lord of the Rings fan - its basically just a lot of walking and far too many fantasy novels are based on a similar concept...)

MonkeySocks24

af_thefragile wrote: »

I think fantasy novels should reflect a part of the current human condition to be good fantasy. If its plain wizards, demons and tramps with no deeper meaning to it all, then I'm not very fond of it.

Sort of why I'm not a fan of Harry Porter. Its just something for kids to fantasize about. Though Alice in Worlderland was that as well. But I guess the weirdness of that book redeems itself...

I agree with you on the Harry Potter subject but imagine the work that must of went in to copying bits of everybodys work, she should at least get credit for that. .

up for anything wrote: »

If you are thinking of 'volumising' please don't. Fantasy readers also need to be millionaires in order to fund their habit. And usually by book 5 the main character is no longer an old friend but a tedious bore.

Also it would be wonderful to conceive a fantasy world that doesn't parallel the real world. Poorly disguised continents and races are becoming a real turn off to me.

Well done on finishing a book and I hope you have huge success with it. Don't forget discounts for boards.ie users.

I agree with the 'Voluminsing' remark, I think you can tell when someone writes for money and someone writes because they have a passion. I have no plans for a second one of this book. I do however have more ideas for fantasy that don't relate to the book I just finished.

Macca3000 wrote: »

I really like Trudi Canavans books. She manages to write rules for magic the characters use. Like in Priestess of the White it's about environment and the strenght of the surrounding environment and the characters ability to harness it.
Actually check out her website. She gives interesting tips on writing.

I am not sure about 'rules for magic'. I know what you mean though. Will defo check out the site. Thanks

pickarooney wrote: »

The scope for unusual erotic encounters is boundless in fantasy. More writers should make use of it.

Erotic Elfs? . Vampires having one night stands, it would be only one night though wouldn't it? They'd kill you. Yeah this comment interested me because that is never really done. I am not sure I would know how to go about it tho.

ToasterSparks wrote: »

As I said, magic realism is very important.

Examples of failing to be realistic include:

[1] Time Turners in Harry Potter. I mean WTF - Voldemort just steal one of them and go back and get someone else to kill HP as a baby! Time travel is a great concept if you make clear rules and make sure there's no obvious loopholes (the whole Harry Potter Azkaban time travelling thing didn't work properly at all).

[2]Varying the power of elemental spells wildly. For example, one minute you're too weak to summon a flame, the next minute you're using a hidden power reserve to make a volcano erupt. Or little kids that discover they have magic powers, and within a week are more adept at using said powers that the evil henchmen/seasoned magicians. Not realistic.

This actually makes alot of sense. Even in fantasy we want the magic to feel possible. thanks for the feedback

CaptainNegative wrote: »

Make sure its a strong ending... I hate reading over a 1000 pages only to discover that they throw the ring into a pit of lava - what an anticlimax??? (Not a huge Lord of the Rings fan - its basically just a lot of walking and far too many fantasy novels are based on a similar concept...)

Hahaha. So true. I do love 'Lord of the Rings' but I know what you mean. I hate endings like that or endings that you can't find out what happens until you read the next book. Quite annoying.

pickarooney

MonkeySocks24 wrote: »

Erotic Elfs? . Vampires having one night stands, it would be only one night though wouldn't it? They'd kill you. Yeah this comment interested me because that is never really done. I am not sure I would know how to go about it tho.

I forgot about vampires actually. Those guys get all the action.

MonkeySocks24

pickarooney wrote: »

I forgot about vampires actually. Those guys get all the action.

Not if they fall in love with a human though because then they can't have sex lol. Poor Vampires.

Also Starring LeVar Burton

MonkeySocks24 wrote: »

Not if they fall in love with a human though because then they can't have sex lol. Poor Vampires.

Speaking of Twilight... That actually is a decent fantasy series - doesn't go down the usual route and makes an enjoyable read...
Obviously still nowhere close to the genius that is Stephen King... Reading Under the Dome at the moment and can't seem to put it down... If you wanna write a proper page turner, study Stephen King's technique...

pickarooney

MonkeySocks24 wrote: »

Not if they fall in love with a human though because then they can't have sex lol. Poor Vampires.

Not a True Blood fan? That's another thing - I'd prefer fantasy writers make up their own species rather than trying to obey the 'rules' of what mythological creatures can and can't do.

MonkeySocks24

CaptainNegative wrote: »

Speaking of Twilight... That actually is a decent fantasy series - doesn't go down the usual route and makes an enjoyable read...
Obviously still nowhere close to the genius that is Stephen King... Reading Under the Dome at the moment and can't seem to put it down... If you wanna write a proper page turner, study Stephen King's technique...

Yeah the Twilight books are actually ok. Stephen King is the master. He is so modest. They had an old interview with him in a writers mag and he is so down to earth. Has constant self doubt. I love Stephen King, most of his books are page turners.

Illkillya

I don't think you should be trying too hard to be unique. I know a guy who doesn't like guitar music because "it's all the same", same patterns, same chords, and a lot of traditional elements. It's great when somebody breaks the mold and comes out with something truly original, but at the same time, it's nice when somebody puts their own slant on many of the common elements that fans of the genre love. As long as you maintain some balance, no half-elf struggling with his heritage.

MonkeySocks24

pickarooney wrote: »

Not a True Blood fan? That's another thing - I'd prefer fantasy writers make up their own species rather than trying to obey the 'rules' of what mythological creatures can and can't do.

More a fan of Nosferatu. I like my vampires geeky rather than badass. It is very rare thing to find a completely made up species. They always seem to be a decent relation of something we are all familar with. Alot of Fantasy books are based on Mythology. Even made up worlds have rules otherwise nothing would ever come out of a story. The story would be 'Life in a fantasy world'.

MonkeySocks24

Illkillya wrote: »

I don't think you should be trying too hard to be unique. I know a guy who doesn't like guitar music because "it's all the same", same patterns, same chords, and a lot of traditional elements. It's great when somebody breaks the mold and comes out with something truly original, but at the same time, it's nice when somebody puts their own slant on many of the common elements that fans of the genre love. As long as you maintain some balance, no half-elf struggling with his heritage.

Every story is the same but told in a different way. haha that made me laugh half-elf struggling with his heritage . It's true trying to be unique can turn out so wrong!

ixoy

Culture - Are you setting it across a continent? It's important to try and individualise places and not just geography. I don't want to think "Oh look it's Spain / Japan / England".
A recent example of a series that made a number of unique elements would be Alan Campbell's Deepgate Codex series.

Politics - What about the political situations? Is it a typical king / vassal set up? Is it a democracy? An oligarchy? Or some other form of rule, such as the Wise Old Men council. There's a number of fantasy series that play with this.

History - please don't have some ancient Golden Age where Everything was Wonderful with the angels and gods dancing about with humans. It's derivative.

Magic - Again, try and do something a bit better than hand waving. A recent excellent example was Patrick Rothfuss' "The Name of the Wind" which used a psuedo scientific element to the magic system.

Theology - What basis is the religion? Is it mono- or poly-theistic? How do different religions view each other? How does this feed into the cultural development - if there's a demanding god, how do the people work towards it? I really like what Greg Keyes is doing with religion in his "Kingdom of Thorn & Bone" series for example. Less fond of gods wandering around the place in mortal form.

Characters - Avoid all the many clichés about destiny and gods-as-mortal-men. Also I'm not fond of the King who is taken out by his younger-evil brother who wants the throne. Seen it too often.

I'm sure there's many more that I can't think of right now but you get the basics!

MonkeySocks24

ixoy wrote: »

Culture - Are you setting it across a continent? It's important to try and individualise places and not just geography. I don't want to think "Oh look it's Spain / Japan / England".
A recent example of a series that made a number of unique elements would be Alan Campbell's Deepgate Codex series.

Politics - What about the political situations? Is it a typical king / vassal set up? Is it a democracy? An oligarchy? Or some other form of rule, such as the Wise Old Men council. There's a number of fantasy series that play with this.

History - please don't have some ancient Golden Age where Everything was Wonderful with the angels and gods dancing about with humans. It's derivative.

Magic - Again, try and do something a bit better than hand waving. A recent excellent example was Patrick Rothfuss' "The Name of the Wind" which used a psuedo scientific element to the magic system.

Theology - What basis is the religion? Is it mono- or poly-theistic? How do different religions view each other? How does this feed into the cultural development - if there's a demanding god, how do the people work towards it? I really like what Greg Keyes is doing with religion in his "Kingdom of Thorn & Bone" series for example. Less fond of gods wandering around the place in mortal form.

Characters - Avoid all the many clichés about destiny and gods-as-mortal-men. Also I'm not fond of the King who is taken out by his younger-evil brother who wants the throne. Seen it too often.

I'm sure there's many more that I can't think of right now but you get the basics!

Good Points and food for thought. Thanks

looksee

I like a really convincing/interesting world that I can 'live' the story in. The Daughter of the Empire and Magician series were very good for that, except that the Japanese society was a bit obvious. And the Japanese and 'Eastern' characters are generally the bad guys or in need of re-direction.

I do not like difficult names or names with apostrophes in. And names should preferably have either a different first letter or a different obvious structure (number of syllables for example) so that lazy readers like me do not have to stop and work out which character we are with at the moment.

And please - no endless elven wars, I don't mind the odd battle, but an entire book of a battle is very tedious. Erotic elves is ok, provided the scene is convincing and relevant, nothing worse than random chunks of irrelevant sex slowing down the plot

MonkeySocks24

looksee wrote: »

I like a really convincing/interesting world that I can 'live' the story in. The Daughter of the Empire and Magician series were very good for that, except that the Japanese society was a bit obvious. And the Japanese and 'Eastern' characters are generally the bad guys or in need of re-direction.

I do not like difficult names or names with apostrophes in. And names should preferably have either a different first letter or a different obvious structure (number of syllables for example) so that lazy readers like me do not have to stop and work out which character we are with at the moment.

And please - no endless elven wars, I don't mind the odd battle, but an entire book of a battle is very tedious. Erotic elves is ok, provided the scene is convincing and relevant, nothing worse than random chunks of irrelevant sex slowing down the plot

Thanks for the feedback . You made me LOL with the endless elven wars and the erotic elves

EileenG

My personal hate: anything that is based on a Chosen One with a Glorious Destiny. I'd much rather read about someone ordinary who, through her choices, makes a difference or forges a destiny for herself. While making plenty of mistakes along the way.

Some of those Chosen Ones are so obnoxious that I'm tempted to box their ears and send them to bed without any Youtube.

I'm quite happy to have magic, but it has to be clearly defined. My children love H2O, and I can cope with girls turning into mermaids, but the stupid way it happens is annoying, and the infinite powers they have drive me crazy. She can't pick up a 5lb dumbbell with both hands, but she can levitate a ton of water without breaking a sweat? Please.