Importance of Waterford as a regional capital

dayshah

Whenever we want something for Waterford, such as a university, retail developments or air/sea rescue we usually make the case that Waterford is the regional capital. Undoubtedly Waterford is the biggest city in the South East region. However, I'm trying to figure out the actual catchment area of the city.

County Waterford (including city) is fairly small. In terms of population we are about 20th place of 32 counties and are the smallest in Munster (even smaller than Clare). So from this regard are catchment is small.

However the South-East region has a population about 460,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland)

The South East region has a population density below the national average, which isn't great for Waterford.

But how much of the South East is really part of Waterford City's catchment?

Some examples:
Dungarvan: 46km from Waterford and 76km to Cork. It is considerably closer to Waterford, but as things stand where do Dungarvan people go to get things that aren't in Dungarvan?

Carlow: 80 km from Waterford but 92km from Dublin. I think Carlow is more in Dublin's orbit than ours. Similarly for North Wexford.

Kilkenny about 90min from Dublin and 50min from Waterford. Closer to Waterford, but there is more you can get done in Dublin on a day out.

So our catchment at a max would be 400,000. This is still a fairly decent size. However the other big towns in the South East, such as Carlow, fall into a grey area between Waterford's and Dublin's catchment.

Does anyone have better figures? Also what can we do to get Carlow people coming to Waterford rather than Dublin (and I don't think a Marks and Spencer's will do it).

merlante

Drive time catchments for most cities can be found in one place or another on the web.

Waterford
http://www.newgatecentre.com/pdf/DestinationWaterford.pdf

15 minute - 72,846
30 minute - 121,051
45 minute - 214,367
60 minute - 325,939

Considering Waterford is the largest city within 1hr 45min drive approx. (Cork/Dublin when motorway is finished). Then logically, the 45-60 minute catchment is the population that will find it most convenient to use Waterford as a centre for shopping, etc., provided the facilities are sufficient. So you are talking about a population of maybe 250,000 realistically.

The regional figure of 460,000 is valid for hospitals, universities, etc., though, because it is not unheard of for people to live closer to a neighbouring regional centre than the centre of their own region. That's life. You have to organise the provision of facilities somehow.

Bards

merlante wrote: »

Drive time catchments for most cities can be found in one place or another on the web.

Waterford
http://www.newgatecentre.com/pdf/DestinationWaterford.pdf

15 minute - 72,846
30 minute - 121,051
45 minute - 214,367
60 minute - 325,939

Considering Waterford is the largest city within 1hr 45min drive approx. (Cork/Dublin when motorway is finished). Then logically, the 45-60 minute catchment is the population that will find it most convenient to use Waterford as a centre for shopping, etc., provided the facilities are sufficient. So you are talking about a population of maybe 250,000 realistically.

The regional figure of 460,000 is valid for hospitals, universities, etc., though, because it is not unheard of for people to live closer to a neighbouring regional centre than the centre of their own region. That's life. You have to organise the provision of facilities somehow.

once the Motorway (M9) is complete Carlow will only be 34 mins from Waterford City. Parts of Kildare will be well within the 60 mins, so Waterford catchment will therefore increase

dayshah

Bards wrote: »

once the Motorway (M9) is complete Carlow will only be 34 mins from Waterford City. Parts of Kildare will be well within the 60 mins, so Waterford catchment will therefore increase

No way will Kildare be in Waterford's catchment rather than Dublin's.

ziedth

I agree,

Newbridge has shops as good if not better then town

Bards

... some of you just don't get it!!!

Multinationals , whether they be retailers or manufacturing plants, Call Centres, etc , when looking for somewhere to locate will look at population stats witihn an hours drive. They don't give a damn whose catchment the area is already in.

Their priority will be to attract these key workers/shoppers etc to their new development.

Waterford People are in the catchment of Waterford City, yet we still shop/work in Kilkenny/Cork/Dublin/Clonmel etc.

The bottoms line is - Waterford's Catchment Area (inhabitants witihin an hours drive) will increase once the M9 is complete, period

dlofnep

Not to mention, the cost of living in Dublin is more than Waterford - So for many, Waterford is, or at least should be a viable alternative. Compare Waterford of the 80's to todays Waterford and you wouldn't recognise it. There is alot of investment and development, but we need to continue to nurture the city.

dayshah

Bards wrote: »

... some of you just don't get it!!!

Multinationals , whether they be retailers or manufacturing plants, Call Centres, etc , when looking for somewhere to locate will look at population stats witihn an hours drive. They don't give a damn whose catchment the area is already in.

Their priority will be to attract these key workers/shoppers etc to their new development.

Waterford People are in the catchment of Waterford City, yet we still shop/work in Kilkenny/Cork/Dublin/Clonmel etc.

The bottoms line is - Waterford's Catchment Area (inhabitants witihin an hours drive) will increase once the M9 is complete, period

I think a lot of us get it very well.

Waterford has to compete with other areas. It is harder to compete the further they are from Waterford and closer they are to another service area.

Take Waterford Airport for example. No way will someone from Kildare consider Waterford their natural choice for an airport. They face an 1 hour drive to Waterford (though I doubt they will really get here in 1 hour even with the motorway) or a shorter journey to Dublin Airport.

If they are to come to Waterford Airport it would have to be for a particular reason. Maybe because Waterford is generally cheaper than Dublin flights would be cheaper too, or maybe because Waterford is smaller the Airport is handier. But still, their natural choice for an Airport will still be Dublin.

As for MNEs only caring who lives within 1 hour, they also care which competitors are nearby. So if IKEA decide to open another store they wont consider people in Kildare to be potential customers as they would go to IKEA Dublin.

As for Waterford people working in Dublin and Cork, you could say Waterford is in their regional and national catchment areas. But what proportion of Waterford people go to work there in comparison to Dubs working in Waterford? Its mainly (though not totally) one way traffic.

savic04

Because of the new motorway and even the outer ring ronad by-pass, it will be only around 10 years time when we see how developed Waterford can be..

The city centre area is too small, the shopping here is a disaster that places like CLonmel and KK are often better...


Waterford needed a massive amount of development, it has been forgotten for too long in this country.. thankfully that is changing, so please god fingers crossed that in the next 10 years once the infastructure is in place.. We will see the benefits.

Being the capital of the South East region really and truly means f$$k All to 90% of people, business owners included.

Minstrel27

dayshah wrote: »

Some examples:
Dungarvan: 46km from Waterford and 76km to Cork. It is considerably closer to Waterford, but as things stand where do Dungarvan people go to get things that aren't in Dungarvan?

For clothing and so on I will always go to Cork. Waterford doesn't come close to the choice available.

mike65

One could say the improved road network is actually bad news for Waterford commerce as it makes a drive to Dublin (esp the M50 retailers) much more attractive.

Dum_Dum

Just got back from Wexford Town - it's quayside is something I would like to see in Waterford. Open, with good landscaping, street furniture & lighting, perhaps lacking in some greenery.

The airport should also consider abandoning car parking charges - people will travel to the airport from much greater distances to avoid these charges, which are often extortionate at other airports - like Cork. It gets the airport on the map and increases passenger numbers. Land ought to be cheaper out there than at other competitor airports.

The problem remains that the south-east is not a coherent unit both culturally and geographically. Large rivers across the region with limited bridging points are the ultimate cause of this sense of incoherence. Any political opportunity to create government on a regional scale would really benefit the south-east and Waterford.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Take Waterford Airport for example. No way will someone from Kildare consider Waterford their natural choice for an airport. They face an 1 hour drive to Waterford (though I doubt they will really get here in 1 hour even with the motorway) or a shorter journey to Dublin Airport.

Have you ever flown out of Waterford airport?

I suspect you haven't because otherwise you would know that you can turn up 30 minutes before take off and check-in and go through security in 5 mins. Dublin airport is a nightmare in comparison.

The reason why somebody from Kildare might prefer Dublin is the cost of the flight, which is rarely below €107 return all-in with Aer-Arann from Waterford. But if the time is right and Luton is the airport of choice it could make sense. A lot of people don't check all their options when they are flying and just go to Ryanair/Dublin by default (a site I try to avoid).

merlante

savic04 wrote: »

Because of the new motorway and even the outer ring ronad by-pass, it will be only around 10 years time when we see how developed Waterford can be..

The city centre area is too small, the shopping here is a disaster that places like CLonmel and KK are often better...


Waterford needed a massive amount of development, it has been forgotten for too long in this country.. thankfully that is changing, so please god fingers crossed that in the next 10 years once the infastructure is in place.. We will see the benefits.

Being the capital of the South East region really and truly means f$$k All to 90% of people, business owners included.

I take your point... but Clonmel and particularly Kilkenny have a lot less in the way of shopping than Waterford. Lets not get carried away here.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Have you ever flown out of Waterford airport?

I suspect you haven't because otherwise you would know that you can turn up 30 minutes before take off and check-in and go through security in 5 mins. Dublin airport is a nightmare in comparison.

The reason why somebody from Kildare might prefer Dublin is the cost of the flight, which is rarely below €107 return all-in with Aer-Arann from Waterford. But if the time is right and Luton is the airport of choice it could make sense. A lot of people don't check all their options when they are flying and just go to Ryanair/Dublin by default (a site I try to avoid).

I flew to Luton. The airport is perfect for someone from Waterford, but a different story if you are from Kildare and have that journey to Waterford in front of you. If someone from Castledermot has to choose an airport, I doubt Waterford is high on their list.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

I flew to Luton. The airport is perfect for someone from Waterford, but a different story if you are from Kildare and have that journey to Waterford in front of you. If someone from Castledermot has to choose an airport, I doubt Waterford is high on their list.

Why are you talking about choosing an airport, surely you choose the flight not the airport? I mean I fly from Cork, Dublin or Waterford depending on the convenience and cost of the flight. Surely it would make sense for someone in Castledermot to fly from Waterford if the price, flight and destination airport was right?

Just looking at the Dublin airport website, there seems to be one flight to London-LTN 08:15 in the morning with Ryanair. If that got in too late for you, then you might consider the 07:30 flight from Waterford, or god forbid the Ryanair flight was fully booked, too expensive (because of late booking) or cancelled because of, say, an ash cloud.

Castledermot is currently 1hr 40mins from Waterford airport, which I'm sure will reduce substantially when the motorway is finished. Similarly, the route will be a lot more straight forward. It is 59mins to Dublin Airport. The wait in Dublin airport (1hr absolute min, in practice you'd allow 2hrs coming from Castledermot), for check-in, security and latest checkin time, plus the extra faffing about with long term parking, etc., would easily eat up the difference.

I'm not saying that people in Castledermot think about Waterford for flights, but maybe they should, because at times it might make sense for them. After the motorway is finished, it would be make a lot more sense.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Why are you talking about choosing an airport, surely you choose the flight not the airport? I mean I fly from Cork, Dublin or Waterford depending on the convenience and cost of the flight. Surely it would make sense for someone in Castledermot to fly from Waterford if the price, flight and destination airport was right?

Just looking at the Dublin airport website, there seems to be one flight to London-LTN 08:15 in the morning with Ryanair. If that got in too late for you, then you might consider the 07:30 flight from Waterford, or god forbid the Ryanair flight was fully booked, too expensive (because of late booking) or cancelled because of, say, an ash cloud.

Castledermot is currently 1hr 40mins from Waterford airport, which I'm sure will reduce substantially when the motorway is finished. Similarly, the route will be a lot more straight forward. It is 59mins to Dublin Airport. The wait in Dublin airport (1hr absolute min, in practice you'd allow 2hrs coming from Castledermot), for check-in, security and latest checkin time, plus the extra faffing about with long term parking, etc., would easily eat up the difference.

I'm not saying that people in Castledermot think about Waterford for flights, but maybe they should, because at times it might make sense for them. After the motorway is finished, it would be make a lot more sense.

My point is that distance is still very important. Suppose you don't have a car. You have a direct Castledermot-Dublin Airport bus (JJ Kavanagh) but not to Waterford Airport.

I suppose to find the Airport's natural catchment you would have to say if there were 2 €70 flights to Luton leaving Dublin and Waterford at 09.00, which would someone from Castledermot prefer?

I'm all for Waterford promoting some sort of niché catchment. Maybe a busy businessman would prefer to travel from Carlow to Waterford because they have their own car and go through check-in very quickly.
Or you could say for surfing Waterford's (Tramore's really) catchment includes Dublin as its the closest good surf location. (I don't surf so I'm just guessing at this.)

However, what I want to know is Waterford's general catchment area. Just like gravity, someone might be closer to Waterford but more attracted to the bigger city like Cork or Dublin.

19.5V

I would like to make a few comments on this thread, these comments are not a reply to anyone’s suggestions or intended to undermine anyone’s suggestions
I think that for Waterford to excel it needs to concentrate on what we can do differently and try not to compete with the likes of Kilkenny which has different appeals which we don’t have, Waterford has magnificent waterfront that inner cities and towns don’t. We need to re-invent the quays and show it off to visitors, this proud port returned to all its former glory during the tall-ships event a few years ago, all eyes were on our river and how well it catered for such a maritime festival.
Up to 1959 it was possible to board a ship off Waterford’s quay and sail to Fishguard, in 1917 it was possible to sail from Waterford to Liverpool, these services were lost to other regions over the years. Cork has recently re-established itself as a passenger ferry with passenger ferry to France and has just announced a ferry to Spain, this will bring in a serious amount of people and revenue into their region, they are using their port better than what we do, let’s get the focus on what we have and not what we haven’t. I have heard it said that the boat trip up Waterford’s harbour is among the finest in the world.

sorry for drifting off the point

dayshah

19.5V wrote: »

I would like to make a few comments on this thread, these comments are not a reply to anyone’s suggestions or intended to undermine anyone’s suggestions
I think that for Waterford to excel it needs to concentrate on what we can do differently and try not to compete with the likes of Kilkenny which has different appeals which we don’t have, Waterford has magnificent waterfront that inner cities and towns don’t. We need to re-invent the quays and show it off to visitors, this proud port returned to all its former glory during the tall-ships event a few years ago, all eyes were on our river and how well it catered for such a maritime festival.
Up to 1959 it was possible to board a ship off Waterford’s quay and sail to Fishguard, in 1917 it was possible to sail from Waterford to Liverpool, these services were lost to other regions over the years. Cork has recently re-established itself as a passenger ferry with passenger ferry to France and has just announced a ferry to Spain, this will bring in a serious amount of people and revenue into their region, they are using their port better than what we do, let’s get the focus on what we have and not what we haven’t. I have heard it said that the boat trip up Waterford’s harbour is among the finest in the world.

sorry for drifting off the point

Rosslare is a village, but has a good catchment for this form of travel. In terms of catchment Waterford should be a better option as a transport hub. However these are problems I can think of:

1) Rosslare is a sea port, so can handle bigger boats. I don't think this is really a problem though as we have had cruise ships which are a similar size to ferries, and cargo ships in the past.

2) We would have to build something to allow roll-on roll off car transport.
I don't think these are major obstacles, especially for Bellview. I wonder if Roll-on roll-off can be done on the quays though. The Ferry companies make most of their money from car transport.

3) Rosslare is the much closer to Britain, so it allows for shorter journey times. It might be feasible though for Waterford to concentrate on Ferries to France.

Waterford has the advantage of having better public transport than Rosslare, but as I said cars are where its at for ferries (except when giant ash clouds are hovering over our heads).

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

My point is that distance is still very important. Suppose you don't have a car. You have a direct Castledermot-Dublin Airport bus (JJ Kavanagh) but not to Waterford Airport.

I suppose to find the Airport's natural catchment you would have to say if there were 2 €70 flights to Luton leaving Dublin and Waterford at 09.00, which would someone from prefer?

I'm all for Waterford promoting some sort of niché catchment. Maybe a busy businessman would prefer to travel from Carlow to Waterford because they have their own car and go through check-in very quickly.
Or you could say for surfing Waterford's (Tramore's really) catchment includes Dublin as its the closest good surf location. (I don't surf so I'm just guessing at this.)

However, what I want to know is Waterford's general catchment area. Just like gravity, someone might be closer to Waterford but more attracted to the bigger city like Cork or Dublin.

True, what I said does depend on someone having a car. Having to get a bus to Waterford and then get a taxi to the airport adds a delay, more uncertainty for those not familiar with Waterford airport and a taxi fare.

As to your hypothetical situation, at the moment they would obviously prefer Dublin. After the motorway is finished, later on in the year, they would probably continue to prefer Dublin because it is a known proposition. There are probably plenty of people in Castledermot who have not been to Waterford, let alone Waterford airport. If they were familiar with both options, though, there might not be much in it. It's the same bus route either way. There is a 15 euro taxi waiting for you in Waterford (there's a rank at the bus station now), but then again you have significantly longer delays and hassle at Dublin airport. I have no idea what the comparable bus times would be.

I think, as I said in an earlier post, Waterford's 'gravity' catchment is about 250,000 people living 45mins-60mins from the city. 45mins in the direction of Dublin and Cork to account for their greater 'pull' (where either city is still 1hr+ away). It's a weaker pull than the equivalent with Limerick and Galway because there are simply more and stronger urban centres in the south east than in those regions. For example, if Tramore were in the west, it would be the second or third largest population centre. Similarly, outside of Limerick and Ennis, there are no other large towns in the mid west. So there is more population in the south east, but Waterford exerts a relatively weaker pull on it. Having said that, Waterford is the major population centre for jobs, shopping, etc. as far west as Clonmel and Dungarvan, as far east as Wexford, and as far north as Kilkenny, and maybe in the future, Carlow. If you can't source something in these centres, then you will probably drift towards Waterford. As I said though, the counties of the south east are not as dependent on the regional centre as counties elsewhere are.

19.5V

dayshah wrote: »

Rosslare is a village, but has a good catchment for this form of travel. In terms of catchment Waterford should be a better option as a transport hub. However these are problems I can think of:

1) Rosslare is a sea port, so can handle bigger boats. I don't think this is really a problem though as we have had cruise ships which are a similar size to ferries, and cargo ships in the past.

2) We would have to build something to allow roll-on roll off car transport.
I don't think these are major obstacles, especially for Bellview. I wonder if Roll-on roll-off can be done on the quays though. The Ferry companies make most of their money from car transport.

3) Rosslare is the much closer to Britain, so it allows for shorter journey times. It might be feasible though for Waterford to concentrate on Ferries to France.

Waterford has the advantage of having better public transport than Rosslare, but as I said cars are where its at for ferries (except when giant ash clouds are hovering over our heads).

I understand that Waterford port can handle any boat that Rosslare can but needs a roll-on-off.
Before the quay of Waterford changed to a giant car park there was a roll-on-roll-off facility, I believe that this was built as a half-assed attempt at competition to Rosslare’s importation of new cars, but was never properly used as it was of inferior quality and capacity, however at least it was an attempt. As for its proximity to the UK, this advantage, in my opinion is weak, what with the new motorway system that kisses Waterford.
In Waterford we have better restaurants and hotels to greet tourists from a ferry, not 1970’s B&B’s and greasy spoons that currently greet tourists from the continent traveling from Rosslare, (sorry Rosslare / New Ross (OMG the quay side of New Ross is like Stalingrad after WW2))
Waterford depended on Industry, which served the city well up to the last 15 years or so. This is gone and isn’t going to come back, the city needs to re-align itself, move away form parochialism and explore what options that are available to it, all this requires leadership (not political alliances or allegiance), a trait that is a bit elusive to Ireland at the moment.
I suppose I am guilty of parochialism myself here as if Waterford was to successfully introduce a car ferry it would probably close the Rosslare one, while I'm on the subject of parochialism, the Ferrybank shopping Monster needs to be demolished, or turned into a home for former millionaires, we in Ireland have 5 times the retail space than our cousins in the UK, yes 5 times the retail space! can you imagine what the center of Waterford will be like when or if this monster opens

dayshah

@ Merlante

Basically for my own fun I want to draw a map of Waterford's catchment area. So I suppose I should draw a line starting at Fungarvan, then up to Clonmel, maybe as far as Clonmel and then across to somewhere in Wexford. Based on this we can then plan what proportion of niché to general things we want in Waterford. So we can't get people from Kildare to come down for something general, they will go to Dublin, but maybe for something specific like cut crystal or surfing.

@19.5V

Regarding travelling to Britain. Rosslare is about 60km closer. I suppose that makes journey time about 2 hours shorter, so most people would probably want to drive for 1 hour longer to avoid 2 hours in the boat. To the best of my knowledge the Cork ferry only goes to France.

19.5V

dayshah wrote: »

@19.5V

Regarding travelling to Britain. Rosslare is about 60km closer. I suppose that makes journey time about 2 hours shorter, so most people would probably want to drive for 1 hour longer to avoid 2 hours in the boat. To the best of my knowledge the Cork ferry only goes to France.

I was lucky enough to have money last year, we travelled from France to Rosslare on an overnight, I found it a very pleasant journey, I am not so sure whether another hour or 2 on the boat would have made a huge difference, to me the journey had a calming effect , not the airport ‘run and get the cases off the conveyor and stand in front of the conveyor to stop others from getting their luggage effect’ :mad:, hate airports
There are now small fast ferry boats available which are capable of half the travel time of some of the big ones to the UK and continent

19.5V

dayshah wrote: »

Whenever we want something for Waterford, such as a university, retail developments or air/sea rescue we usually make the case that Waterford is the regional capital. Undoubtedly Waterford is the biggest city in the South East region. However, I'm trying to figure out the actual catchment area of the city.

County Waterford (including city) is fairly small. In terms of population we are about 20th place of 32 counties and are the smallest in Munster (even smaller than Clare). So from this regard are catchment is small.

However the South-East region has a population about 460,000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_regions_of_the_Republic_of_Ireland)

The South East region has a population density below the national average, which isn't great for Waterford.

But how much of the South East is really part of Waterford City's catchment?

Some examples:
Dungarvan: 46km from Waterford and 76km to Cork. It is considerably closer to Waterford, but as things stand where do Dungarvan people go to get things that aren't in Dungarvan?

Carlow: 80 km from Waterford but 92km from Dublin. I think Carlow is more in Dublin's orbit than ours. Similarly for North Wexford.

Kilkenny about 90min from Dublin and 50min from Waterford. Closer to Waterford, but there is more you can get done in Dublin on a day out.

So our catchment at a max would be 400,000. This is still a fairly decent size. However the other big towns in the South East, such as Carlow, fall into a grey area between Waterford's and Dublin's catchment.

Does anyone have better figures? Also what can we do to get Carlow people coming to Waterford rather than Dublin (and I don't think a Marks and Spencer's will do it).

Dayshah
what would be your thoughts on that maybe Waterford has become part of Kilkennys catchment, with the new moterway I think that most people would go for a 'spin' to Kilkenny from Waterford and not the other way around

19.5V

mike65 wrote: »

One could say the improved road network is actually bad news for Waterford commerce as it makes a drive to Dublin (esp the M50 retailers) much more attractive.

I hate to say it but I feel you are right, the motorway is more of a way out of Waterford and not so much into it

robtri

19.5V wrote: »

Dayshas
what would be your thoughts on that maybe Waterford has become part of Kilkennys catchment, with the new moterway I think that most people would go for a 'spin' to Kilkenny from Waterford and not the other way around

same way as most people in Dublin would go for a spin to wicklow or kilkenny.....
a lot of people from the bigger cities like to visit the smaller towns

19.5V

robtri wrote: »

same way as most people in Dublin would go for a spin to wicklow or kilkenny.....
a lot of people from the bigger cities like to visit the smaller towns

I happen to be from and in Waterford myself:D:D

dayshah

19.5V wrote: »

I was lucky enough to have money last year, we travelled from France to Rosslare on an overnight, I found it a very pleasant journey, I am not so sure whether another hour or 2 on the boat would have made a huge difference, to me the journey had a calming effect , not the airport ‘run and get the cases off the conveyor and stand in front of the conveyor to stop others from getting their luggage effect’ :mad:, hate airports
There are now small fast ferry boats available which are capable of half the travel time of some of the big ones to the UK and continent

We might actually be a bit closer to France than Rosslare is, but on an overnight 2 hours doesn't make much of a difference if you have a cabin. So Waterford could specialise in overnights to England and other trips to France. I wonder how much a terminal would cost though. Ferry transport could become more attractive as oil prices increase.

As for being in Kilkenny's catchment, you could say the same about Tramore as people go out there for chips and 99s, but more people come to Waterford to do business than go to Kilkenny.

merlante

19.5V wrote: »

Dayshah
what would be your thoughts on that maybe Waterford has become part of Kilkennys catchment, with the new moterway I think that most people would go for a 'spin' to Kilkenny from Waterford and not the other way around

All of the urban centres in the SE are more or less in each other's catchment. The issue is whether this catchment will attract jobs, shops, facilities, etc. The fact of the matter is that these things will go to the largest centre, particularly if it's reasonably central and has good access to the rest of the rest of the region. Waterford is the obvious choice in this regard.

Waterford at 50,000, with Tramore (10,000) down the road, is 2.5 times the size of Kilkenny. Waterford and Tramore have almost the population of Kilkenny, Clonmel, Wexford and Dungarvan combined.

For the purposes of tourism, as you suggest, many people will of course make day trips to Kilkenny, as it is a very pleasant place to visit (although it is far too congested and needs pedestrianisation). Maybe even more than visit Waterford from Kilkenny. But never underestimate the draw of a beach to the people of a landlocked county.

(In these kind of discussions, Tramore is for all intents and purposes as a suburb of Waterford.)

19.5V

merlante wrote: »

All of the urban centres in the SE are more or less in each other's catchment. The issue is whether this catchment will attract jobs, shops, facilities, etc. The fact of the matter is that these things will go to the largest centre, particularly if it's reasonably central and has good access to the rest of the rest of the region. Waterford is the obvious choice in this regard.

Waterford at 50,000, with Tramore (10,000) down the road, is 2.5 times the size of Kilkenny. Waterford and Tramore have almost the population of Kilkenny, Clonmel, Wexford and Dungarvan combined.

For the purposes of tourism, as you suggest, many people will of course make day trips to Kilkenny, as it is a very pleasant place to visit (although it is far too congested and needs pedestrianisation). Maybe even more than visit Waterford from Kilkenny. But never underestimate the draw of a beach to the people of a landlocked county.

(In these kind of discussions, Tramore is for all intents and purposes as a suburb of Waterford.)

point taken