Europes centre right parties would be considered left wing in America?

rightwingdub

I often look on with a sense of puzzlement when in Western Europe political parties consider themselves to have centre right views on economic policies when the reality is that in America political parties like the British Conservatives, German Christian Democrats, Spains Popular Party, Italy's Forza Italia would be considered to be centre left in America who would be closer to the Democrats than the Republicans on economic and some social policies.

Examples would include

1) Nicolas Sarkozy's support for a generous welfare state in France.
2) David Cameron would be a strong supporter opf the NHS in the UK and wouldn't even consider privatising the hospitals in Britain.
3) Merkel supports strong regulation of the financial sector in Europe something US Republicans won't even consider.

owenc

rightwingdub wrote: »

I often look on with a sense of puzzlement when in Western Europe political parties consider themselves to have centre right views on economic policies when the reality is that in America political parties like the British Conservatives, German Christian Democrats, Spains Popular Party, Italy's Forza Italia would be considered to be centre left in America who would be closer to the Democrats than the Republicans on economic and some social policies.

Examples would include

1) Nicolas Sarkozy's support for a generous welfare state in France.
2) David Cameron would be a strong supporter opf the NHS in the UK and wouldn't even consider privatising the hospitals in Britain.
3) Merkel supports strong regulation of the financial sector in Europe something US Republicans won't even consider.

Why would we privatise the hospitals then we would have to pay for our healthcare!:rolleyes:

rightwingdub

owenc wrote: »

Why would we privatise the hospitals then we would have to pay for our healthcare!:rolleyes:

The health service should be privatised in Ireland, the state has shown that It can't run a business therefore they should get out and let the efficiency of the private sector run the health service.

On the topic itself do you agree or disagree with me when I stated that Europe's socalled centre right political parties would be considered left wing in America, the Tories have lot of social liberals, Cameron supports abortion up until 12 weeks, supports gay marriage and is opposed to capital punishment.

Sulmac

I would agree, generally, that European centre-right parties and politicians would be seen as (centre-)left in the US. The thing is, each state has its own "party system", so a Massachusetts Democrat would be far more left-wing than a Texas Democrat; the same is true with Republicans, they are more right-wing in southern states than they are in "blue states". Depending on the state, you'll find this is more true in some than in others.

Vermont also has a self-proclaimed "socialist" senator, who would probably be considered a normal European left-winger.

Amhran Nua

I think it just underlines how silly the whole left/right thing is. Its just a polarising rallying cry used to push certain agendas - the best option now and always is to use what works best and leave aside dogmatic political positions.

rightwingdub

Sulmac wrote: »

I would agree, generally, that European centre-right parties and politicians would be seen as (centre-)left in the US. The thing is, each state has its own "party system", so a Massachusetts Democrat would be far more left-wing than a Texas Democrat; the same is true with Republicans, they are more right-wing in southern states than they are in "blue states". Depending on the state, you'll find this is more true in some than in others.

Vermont also has a self-proclaimed "socialist" senator, who would probably be considered a normal European left-winger.

Your right Bernie Sanders has long admitted to been a socialist and is an admirer of Swedish and Danish style social democracy.

I actually think that if Cameron becomes British Prime Minister he will govern as a centrist and if he's in coalition with the Lib Dems Britain will expect to get a lot more socially liberal policies in the next few years, Boris Johnson (Mayor of London) openly said that he supports some sort of amnesty for illeagl immigrants.

Merkel brought in subsidized childcare in her first term as Chancellor, Sarkozy has been on anti banks tirade ever since the financial crisis broke out.

Permabear

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Exile 1798

rightwingdub wrote: »

I often look on with a sense of puzzlement when in Western Europe political parties consider themselves to have centre right views on economic policies when the reality is that in America political parties like the British Conservatives, German Christian Democrats, Spains Popular Party, Italy's Forza Italia would be considered to be centre left in America who would be closer to the Democrats than the Republicans on economic and some social policies.

Examples would include

1) Nicolas Sarkozy's support for a generous welfare state in France.
2) David Cameron would be a strong supporter opf the NHS in the UK and wouldn't even consider privatising the hospitals in Britain.
3) Merkel supports strong regulation of the financial sector in Europe something US Republicans won't even consider.

Why does it amuse you? Is America the centre of your world?

Doesn't it amuse you that the Democrats are considered centre-Left in America, whereas in Europe they'd be considered centre-Right?

Does it not amuse you that the ultra-Right Wing reactionary party in American is known as the Republican Party when the term Republican is historically and generally associated with the Left?

Does it amuse you that this ultra-Right Wing Republican Party is designated by the colour red, a colour that everywhere else in the world is associated with Socialism, Labour and Unions?

Permabear

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Exile 1798

donegalfella wrote: »

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I know that. In fact I mentioned the same today in the US politics forum. http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65674226&postcount=22

I'm talking about the present, not the past.

Permabear

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Flamed Diving

During the French Revolution, Thomas Paine was considered a radical in American politics, but he was plump in the centre, when he was in France in 1791.

Lesson is; it's all relative.

Exile 1798

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think it just underlines how silly the whole left/right thing is. Its just a polarising rallying cry used to push certain agendas - the best option now and always is to use what works best and leave aside dogmatic political positions.

When I talk about Left/Right I mean it in the most basic and original sense of the term. It originated from the French Parliament when the representatives of the landed gentry were positioned on the right and the representatives of the peasantry on the left.

In Europe today, most countries have a Centre-Left Labour/Workers/Socialist Party which is anchored to a Union movement. They represent the working and middle class. Then you have a Centre-Right Party that is economically more Liberal and closely aligned with the business community, they aspire the win the middle class.

These wings of politics compete and compromise and the interests of the economy, employees and employers are balanced. Often for the better of society, sometimes for the worse.

America doesn't have this really. Neither does Ireland. What we have is two Civil War parties, family traditions but no firm ideological bedrock. I think both countries suffer because of this. Politics become a lot murkier and Parties a lot easier to buy off when there's no basic grounding.

I would love nothing more then for Ireland to have a proper Labour party, for Fine Gael to become a serious economically Liberal party and for Fianna Fáil to f@ck off.

Exile 1798

donegalfella wrote: »

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No, I was being sarcastic.

The names and symbols of the Republican Party are a marker of their past. It's amusing given their present reality.

I don't think it's the name Fine Gael that associates them with the Civil War, but they themselves who have historically sought to associate themselves with the pro-Treaty side and Collins.

ChocolateSauce

donegalfella wrote: »

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Conversely, I'd say it also demonstrates the success with which the American right has managed to turn the term "left-wing liberal" into a slur, and to portray middle-of the-road leftists as militant communists who want to create a dictatorship which will see American freedom stripped away at gunpoint, when in fact American left wingers just want to bring about a situation like we have in Europe, where opportunity is re-distributed and 50,000 people don't needlessly die every year because they can't afford to pay for healthcare.

ChocolateSauce

rightwingdub wrote: »

I often look on with a sense of puzzlement when in Western Europe political parties consider themselves to have centre right views on economic policies when the reality is that in America political parties like the British Conservatives, German Christian Democrats, Spains Popular Party, Italy's Forza Italia would be considered to be centre left in America who would be closer to the Democrats than the Republicans on economic and some social policies.

Examples would include

1) Nicolas Sarkozy's support for a generous welfare state in France.
2) David Cameron would be a strong supporter opf the NHS in the UK and wouldn't even consider privatising the hospitals in Britain.
3) Merkel supports strong regulation of the financial sector in Europe something US Republicans won't even consider.

Yeah, Europe's right is America's left, and Obama, in my opinion, is closer to being a far rightist that he is a centrist, despite the fact that many in the US think he's a socialist (I think these people don't know the meaning of the word). Two totally different scales must be used when discussing cross-Atlantic politics.

me_right_one

Its all fcuked up. I always thought if you're a communist, you support left ideals like sharing and equality, but usually it means a dictatorship. And if you're right wing, you're supposed to want a dictator, but you get an elected govt., equal opportunities jobs wise, better wealth distribution etc. cos competition naturally levels the playing field!?! They're the two opposites of each other

Overheal

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Yeah, Europe's right is America's left, and Obama, in my opinion, is closer to being a far rightist that he is a centrist, despite the fact that many in the US think he's a socialist (I think these people don't know the meaning of the word). Two totally different scales must be used when discussing cross-Atlantic politics.

http://ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm you can see where they get the idea.

kev9100

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Obama, in my opinion, is closer to being a far rightist that he is a centrist, despite the fact that many in the US think he's a socialist

Ah now. Obama is not a socialist but he definitely is'nt a far-rightist either.

ChocolateSauce

kev9100 wrote: »

Ah now. Obama is not a socialist but he definitely is'nt a far-rightist either.

Never said he was, just that he resembles the right more than he does the left, or even the centre, by European standards.

steelcityblues

More to the point, it demonstrates how politically weak-minded many so called 'right wing' politicians in Europe are!

Eliot Rosewater

Amhran Nua wrote: »

I think it just underlines how silly the whole left/right thing is. Its just a polarising rallying cry used to push certain agendas - the best option now and always is to use what works best and leave aside dogmatic political positions.

That's a noble attitude, however the reason the Left/Right scale is used is because people don't agree on "what works best". I think small government works best, you don't. Even though we both feel we are fighting the cause of what's best, there are fundamental differences in our outlooks. Hence, the delineation.

Augmerson

rightwingdub wrote: »

The health service should be privatised in Ireland, the state has shown that It can't run a business therefore they should get out and let the efficiency of the private sector run the health service.

Is that you Mary?

rightwingdub

Augmerson wrote: »

Is that you Mary?

You've guessed right;) just off now to have a bottle of vodka:D

Madd Finn

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Conversely, I'd say it also demonstrates the success with which the American right has managed to turn the term "left-wing liberal" into a slur, and to portray middle-of the-road leftists as militant communists who want to create a dictatorship which will see American freedom stripped away at gunpoint.

I don't have enough posts under my new amended identity (I used to be Mad with only one D before the hack forced password changes) to give you a thumbs up but would have done if I could.

America is a different planet. With a different language. Over here, hard left means Socialist Worker's Party or Communist or People Before Profit. Over there, it means Nancy Pelosi!!!! Go figure.

I think part of the problem is the bipolar disorder which affects most of American culture. They are so diverse ethnically, religiously, even racially that they try to simplify everything down to two choices: Republician or Democrat, liberal or conservative, Pro choice or pro life, Coke or Pepsi, Red state or blue state.

It's a very inadequate model for the complexities of the human condition.

goose2005

Similarly, Ireland's labour party would be centrists in much of Europe.

Also, a thing I really dislike is the way any authoritarian/racist group is called "far right", regardless of any of their other policies. The Tories are more right-wing than the bnp.

BluePlanet

Why do people like the stark separation of leftwing/rightwing that the US has?
I think it's nasty.

John Hume talked about it in a biography, he put it down to partition and the subsequent Civil War.
He seemed to believe it was a natural evolution of political parties to evolve into strict Left / Right demarcation .

I think i actually prefer our muddled situation where both socially liberal and conservative sit in the same political party.

Lockstep

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

That's a noble attitude, however the reason the Left/Right scale is used is because people don't agree on "what works best". I think small government works best, you don't. Even though we both feel we are fighting the cause of what's best, there are fundamental differences in our outlooks. Hence, the delineation.

Completely agree.
I can only give you one "thanks" for this so I'm going to go and randomly thank 3 of your other posts.

Exile 1798

BluePlanet wrote: »

Why do people like the stark separation of leftwing/rightwing that the US has?
I think it's nasty.

It's nasty because it doesn't actually exist. Because it is imagined it needs to be overstated in the hyperbolic, even vicious way that it is.

The Democratic Party has a left faction and Union element, but also has a very strong business faction and corporate grouping.

The Republican Party, because they are supposed to be the Right Party, are driven ever further to the Right in their rhetoric in an effort to outflank the Centre-Right Democrats.

It is indeed very nasty, but for the lack of a real and healthy left-right divide.

BluePlanet wrote: »

John Hume talked about it in a biography, he put it down to partition and the subsequent Civil War.
He seemed to believe it was a natural evolution of political parties to evolve into strict Left / Right demarcation .

I think i actually prefer our muddled situation where both socially liberal and conservative sit in the same political party.

Well as I said in post 13, I believe it is a completely natural evolution of politics. I think the lack of it's existence is one of the reasons Irish politics, like American, is so dysfunctional.

Fianna Fail's sole aim is populism. They have no guiding governing ideology whatsoever, they just try and give voters and business groups what they want, so we get an awful mismanagement of the economy. The time is ripe for them to be attacked from the Right - but we don't have a strong Right Wing, Economically Liberal party, we have Fine Gael...