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We're bailing out the banks....

  • 30-04-2010 04:05PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭


    Ok so the proverbial phrase is:
    "We're are bailing out the banks".

    Let's say the Nama / recapitlisation costs 100 billion. That's say 10 billion a year for ten years. Some of which we will get back.

    But then forget about the banks. We are also making a year on year loss of 18 billion every year. The majority of this money goes to wages of public and civil services and that's a loss that will never yield any money - whereas the banks bail out should yield at least yield something.

    So if we are going to shout the maxim: "we are bailing out the banks", shouldn't we also be shouting: "we are bailing out the civil and public servants".

    Discuss...


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 879 ✭✭✭woodseb



    Discuss...

    isn't this what is already being discussed in most every other thread already?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    I personally think the government should give me a tax-free gratuity of 1 million euro. Why shouldn't they? They're already giving billions and billions of euro to the banks; it's not as if 1 million means anything to them; it'd be the fair thing to do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    I love that word, "fairness"

    so often abused, so ill defined...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    woodseb wrote: »
    isn't this what is already being discussed in most every other thread already?

    Indeed and I have contributed to many of them myself.

    My thread was intended to discussion of the phrase "we're bailing out the banks" only. How incomplete it is. How ubiquitous it is. What a bit spin it is. Because it tells some truth but not the hole truth.

    It creates a paradigm where the average person thinks the 18 billion year on year loss is only because of the banks and that civil-servants have to take a pay cut to pay for the banks. A clever piece of propaganda - don't you think...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 MrsNY


    Ok so the proverbial phrase is:
    "We're are bailing out the banks".

    Let's say the Nama / recapitlisation costs 100 billion. That's say 10 billion a year for ten years. Some of which we will get back.

    But then forget about the banks. We are also making a year on year loss of 18 billion every year. The majority of this money goes to wages of public and civil services and that's a loss that will never yield any money - whereas the banks bail out should yield at least yield something.

    So if we are going to shout the maxim: "we are bailing out the banks", shouldn't we also be shouting: "we are bailing out the civil and public servants".

    Discuss...

    Isnt that just the thing though......Public SERVICES????
    Like how do you turn a profit out of them???
    At lot of PS haters on this forum just dont seem to get that. Like how do you turn a profit out of Education? You dont......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27 MrsNY


    This post has been deleted.


    As they say in my neighbourhood: " Are you for serious"?????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    2009
    Government Deficit Excl. Bank = €24,641m
    Bank Bailout = €6,000m

    2010
    Estimate Deficit Excl. Bank = € 25,261m
    Est. Bank Bailout = €1,300m

    2011 - 2020
    Est. Deficit Excl. Bank = ????
    Est. Bank Bailout = €2,100 p.a.

    I know which one i'm more concerned about....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    When you start making sense the PS lads and lassies all run and hide. It's their kryptonite don't ya know..


    I'll make up for their absence though:


    "WE DIDNT CAUSE THIS MESS. WHERES MY BAIL OUT?? WE WERE BETRAYED BY THE UNIONS! WE WANT PAY RISES NOT CUTS" etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,031 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    MrsNY wrote: »
    Isnt that just the thing though......Public SERVICES????
    Like how do you turn a profit out of them???
    At lot of PS haters on this forum just dont seem to get that. Like how do you turn a profit out of Education? You dont......
    I am not expecting profit from the public service and I just trying to compare the cost of the public service to the cost of Nama to the state as things currently stand.

    If our year on year loss is neglible then happy days. We can afford the public service we are paying for.

    But that's not the case.

    Here's an analogy. And I must say I usually hate analogies but it may illustrate my point.

    Say you are working out your familiy finances.

    Your wife has incurred a gambling debt of 10K.
    You have agreed to pay this back over a ten year period and you might actually get some of that money back.
    The cost to your family is 1K a year with an opportunity of actually getting some yield.

    Outside of the gambling problems, because your wife and your own incomes have been cut in the recession, you are making a a net loss of 2K a year on your families finances. You are borrowing to make up the 2K shortfall and pay for your ESB, GAS, NTL, Meals out, holidays etc. The bank has told you this situation is unsustainable.

    You have to make decisions, cut back on holidays, meals out etc so you don't need to borrow 2K a year to make up the shortfall.
    The kids complain blaming Mum's gambling problems.

    You point out that even if Mum didn't have these gambling problems, you still need to make the cuts...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭aoboa


    Simple question:
    Why do we need to make these cuts now?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    You are correct, the real problem is the deficit. However, regardless of my opinions on the subject, there are already a dozen "I hate the public sector" threads already running and we don't need another.


  • Posts: 3,925 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    aoboa wrote: »
    Simple question:
    Why do we need to make these cuts now?

    Simple answer:
    Read a newspaper.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 280 ✭✭aoboa


    Rojomcdojo wrote: »
    Simple answer:
    Read a newspaper.

    Reality of the situation too much for you?
    Why do we have such a huge deficit?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 802 ✭✭✭Scarab80


    aoboa wrote: »
    Reality of the situation too much for you?
    Why do we have such a huge deficit?

    Errrr, because we have had a massive reduction in economic activity resulting in layoffs and paycuts in the private sector due to the combined effects of a global slowdown, the bursting of an overinflated property bubble and our ever increasing cost base which has resulted in a reduction in our tax take while our outgoings have not reduced correspondingly.

    Do i get a gold star now?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Scarab80 wrote: »
    Errrr, because we have had a massive reduction in economic activity resulting in layoffs and paycuts in the private sector due to the combined effects of a global slowdown, the bursting of an overinflated property bubble and our ever increasing cost base which has resulted in a reduction in our tax take while our outgoings have not reduced correspondingly.

    Do i get a gold star now?

    An the PS costs doubling and Welfare quadrupling in a decade (above inflation)

    does not factor in at all?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭alias141282


    It creates a paradigm where the average person thinks the 18 billion year on year loss is only because of the banks and that civil-servants have to take a pay cut to pay for the banks. A clever piece of propaganda - don't you think...

    The deficit has grown so big in large part because the government cut taxes during the boom (as it was taking in a lot of property tax) and increased spending (some of which is accounted for by an increase in public sector salaries). Now property taxes have collapsed and the govt. is left with a big hole.

    You are ignoring the fact that the public sector has taken paycuts already.

    Your posts are totally agenda driven. "Public sector is to blame for everything". Fine, have it your way. Slash and burn the public sector, crush unions, cut wages, privatise, etc. You are essentially talking about destroying the basis for a democratic society and reorganising government and the State to serve concentrations of private power and wealth while leaving the population to fend for themselves. This ideology reigned in this country in the past - during the famine - it was called the "laissez faire" ideology. Now it is neo-liberal economics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    You are ignoring the fact that the public sector has taken paycuts already.

    Your posts are totally agenda driven.

    speak for yourself

    you are ignoring reality :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭alias141282


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    speak for yourself
    I was correcting a bias in the OP's post. Saying that the public sector has taken paycuts is a statement of fact. I didn't start a thread saying "the public sector has taken paycuts".
    ei.sdraob wrote: »

    No I am accepting reality. I know the country is bankrupt. This may be incomprehensible to you but for some people justice is more important than money.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    You are essentially talking about destroying the basis for a democratic society and reorganising government and the
    Do you mean that only public sector workers enjoy democracy and socialism at the same time?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    No I am accepting reality. I know the country is bankrupt.

    By continuing to borrow like there's no tomorrow and not attempting to balance the books, or even get on the right path?

    This may be incomprehensible to you but for some people justice is more important than money.

    Can justice and "fairness" buy you a loaf of bread when you are starving? :rolleyes:

    stop talking fluff

    2 + 2 != 5 no matter how much you wish it does


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    You are essentially talking about destroying the basis for a democratic society


    Tell me this

    how is it "fair" that the public sector earn more than private sector workers

    where is the "justice" and "fairness" :rolleyes: in that? aint socialism all about equality of workers... or we always get "classes" that are higher than others??


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭alias141282


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Tell me this

    how is it "fair" that the public sector earn more than private sector workers

    where is the "justice" and "fairness" :rolleyes: in that? aint socialism all about equality of workers... or we always get "classes" that are higher than others??

    It isn't fair. But your solution is even more unfair. You want to equalise downwards for low and middle income earners while a tiny minority continue to accumulate enormous wealth. Private and public sector workers go at each others throats driving everyones standard of living down while private concentrations of wealth and power become even more wealthy and powerful.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭alias141282


    Do you mean that only public sector workers enjoy democracy and socialism at the same time?

    No, but public sector organisations are more democratic than private sector organisations. Public sector workers have won greater freedom of expression through union organising.

    I know I have said this before but private companies are essentially private tyrannies. They are not democratic organisations, you cannot question how they operate in any fundamental way, if you do you have to leave. In general, the bigger a private company the more tyrannical it becomes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    It isn't fair. But your solution is even more unfair. You want to equalise downwards for low and middle income earners while a tiny minority continue to accumulate enormous wealth. Private and public sector workers go at each others throats driving everyones standard of living down while private concentrations of wealth and power become even more wealthy and powerful.

    Lol

    no I want people to be paid based on their productivity and ability of employer to pay (in case of PS workers the employer as per your own admission is bankrupt)

    the public sector got and still get raises based on no increased productivity but various "entitlements" and benchmarking,

    they can either raise their productivity or they can be paid what they are worth, is a teacher here who starts of on 10K euro more than their NI counterpart somehow more productive?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 290 ✭✭alias141282


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Lol

    no I want people to be paid based on their productivity and ability of employer to pay (in case of PS workers the employer as per your own admission is bankrupt)

    the public sector got and still get raises based on no increased productivity but various "entitlements" and benchmarking,

    they can either raise their productivity or they can be paid what they are worth, is a teacher here who starts of on 10K euro more than their NI counterpart somehow more productive?

    Or we could create a fairer society:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho_syndicalism

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_corporation


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob



    Yes yes you keep posting these

    It is very easy to pick apart any socialist ideology like the "flavour" you have linked :P considering all socialistic models have the roots of their own destruction baked in

    So here goes:

    * What happens when a worker in your "model" decides to not bother working?

    please answer that one ^^


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    Private and public sector workers go at each others throats driving everyones standard of living down while private concentrations of wealth and power become even more wealthy and powerful.
    thanks to greed of public sector workers
    They started this war by demands to keep them away from crisis and idea that private sector must pay their bills and mortgages

    No, but public sector organisations are more democratic than private sector organisations. Public sector workers have won greater freedom of expression through union organising.

    I know I have said this before but private companies are essentially private tyrannies. They are not democratic organisations, you cannot question how they operate in any fundamental way, if you do you have to leave. In general, the bigger a private company the more tyrannical it becomes.

    There are no slave ships, which are bringing workers to private companies. People are accepting jobs in private companies voluntary.

    BTW, by default tyranny is more effective then democracy if there is a good tyrant. If it will be bad (or ineffective) tyrant, workers will simple leave him

    Democracy has been designed only to minimize loses in absence of smart tyrant


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