Is there any point in cardio/endurance training?

Ryan Roddy

Lately I have been thinking about scrapping my cardio/endurance training completly (by that I mean running, circut training etc) in favour of replacing this with extra rolling/sparring?

Why should we go running/circut training at all?

It seems that every club does alot of circut training, fight gone bad for example, but why spend time doing that when we can get the same work in with sparring or pad work? This would obviously get the added benefit of (hopefully) becoming a better fighter due to increased practise.

I think the only time when I would introduce an alternative exercise would be in the case of injury.

What are your thoughts?

What is the training situation at your gym?

Daniel2oo9

I Think its Good beacause your endurance training helps you to cope more with the pain of getting hit/submitted.
The carsio is very good beacause it helps you go for longer:D

Chris89

What do you want to get better at? if you want to be technically better at whatever it is you do then you could probably scrap all that, assuming you wont get fat and out of shape of course.

But if you want to actually be a better fighter, or competitor, or healthier even; keep up with the extra training.

J-Fit

Ryan Roddy wrote: »

Lately I have been thinking about scrapping my cardio/endurance training completly (by that I mean running, circut training etc) in favour of replacing this with extra rolling/sparring?

Why should we go running/circut training at all?

It seems that every club does alot of circut training, fight gone bad for example, but why spend time doing that when we can get the same work in with sparring or pad work? This would obviously get the added benefit of (hopefully) becoming a better fighter due to increased practise.

I think the only time when I would introduce an alternative exercise would be in the case of injury.

What are your thoughts?

What is the training situation at your gym?

You're right in saying that. Rolling and sparring ARE conditioning and replicate the fight scenario much better than a hamfisted circuit which doesn't take into account the actual work:rest ratio of a fight. I think most fighters would be better served reducing the gut-busting cardio workouts and concentrating instead on becoming fast, strong and explosive. GSP is probably the best example of this. Of course that doesn't mean you should completely abandon conditioning, it's just that most fighters I see way overdo the endurance work and completely underestimate what added strength work can do for you. In any case, strength work will allow you to be strong at the weight you compete at, reducing the need for severe weight cutting.

Chris89

In fairness, fight gone bad, the workout that he mentioned, is a crossfit workout designed to replicate exactlt the work rest ratio of an mma fight.

J-Fit

Chris89 wrote: »

In fairness, fight gone bad, the workout that he mentioned, is a crossfit workout designed to replicate exactlt the work rest ratio of an mma fight.

I've never heard of fight gone bad so I can't really say but most of the guys I work with put far more emphasis on endurance and very little on explosive power. It's a challenge to get them to back off a little on one and increase the other. I suppose I shouldn't presume every fighter trains in this manner. In my view, most of the misconceptionscome from the UFC All Access shows which show ridiculous training measures like Wanderlei Silva running around with a snorkel on. Utter nonsense.

Chris89

J-Fit wrote: »

I've never heard of fight gone bad so I can't really say but most of the guys I work with put far more emphasis on endurance and very little on explosive power. It's a challenge to get them to back off a little on one and increase the other. I suppose I shouldn't presume every fighter trains in this manner. In my view, most of the misconceptionscome from the UFC All Access shows which show ridiculous training measures like Wanderlei Silva running around with a snorkel on. Utter nonsense.

While that may be a little extreme, i think you are underestimating the need for a high level of aerobic and anaerobic training at the highest level, jose aldo doesnt just go for a little run, i can guarantee that.

J-Fit

Chris89 wrote: »

i think you are underestimating the need for a high level of aerobic and anaerobic training at the highest level

No definately not, no doubt it's a requirement and of course strength training builds anaerobic capacity, but I think there's an overemphasis on the endurance aspect. Like I said, I believe GSP has struck a great balance between the two. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one as there are many ways to skin a cat!

Chris89

Ah yeah of course theres more than one way to train, but assuming that fighters are the same weight and of average strength, then clearly endurance is important.

Look at both the diaz brothers, regularly compete in triathalons and they go out and kick the **** out of people

Ryan Roddy

I do enjoy hard cardio but it never gets me as tired as getting 5x5 shark tank in sparring against good opponents, I think people may have an over reliance on cardio/circut training due to the fact that its easier than hard sparring and safer?

Chris89

Staying up late makes me tired and i usually fall asleep on the bus. In the same way that soreness after a weights session isnt an indication of a good resistance workout, tiredness isnt exactly the best measurement either.

I hate cardio, but come on lads, lets not get silly here. Assuming were not talking about a fight behind the bike shed, we can hope that the fighters are of an equal skill level and have been matched up well. In which case, conditioning will more than likely be the deciding factor in the fight.

Ryan Roddy

From my experience conditioning is a massive factor in a fight, im not questioning that at all, more so trying to the find the most efficient way to train for it.

arybvtcw0eolkf

For me (Judo and not MMA) apart from the obvious benefits of increasing my stamina and endurance during a fight, cardio allows me the free time and space to focus on the fight (or competition - ie many fights) ahead and get myself focused in that direction.

Or to be cheesy about it, and to put it in Ali's words..

“The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights.” - Ali.

Or to put it another way.. "Somewhere your enemy is training to kill you".. Sun Tzu

"I may have lost a war, but I never lost a minute preparing for one" - Neoplean!.

I realy do believe if your preparing for battle then each and every minute should be focused towards those goals. You can only spend so much time hitting bags/pads, or sparring/rolling etc but at some stage you should be out there preparing your mind and body for the coming fight.

My 2 cent.

aws

+1 on the above, very motivational, im actually going off to the gym now after reading that.

OMCCABE

I'll weigh in on this briefly. The training must replicate the needs of the event. Crossfit does this poorly IMO. I actually like crossfit, if I had to choose a methodology for my girlfriend it'd be right up there but for fighters it is not the optimal way to train..not even close. It does however do a great job of getting people into the gym in the first place and has my support as such...anyway..moving on. If you aren't serious enough about your conditioning to hire a professional then crossfit is at least a small step in the right direction.

If you are serious enough then this is what that a good trainer should know and act on.

Take 3 sports..boxing/Grappling/MMA. All are different and as such require different types of training, rest/work ratios, amount of rounds, total work time, max strenght, power work, power endurance, strength endurance.

Boxing (pro) = 12 rounds x 3 minutes = 36 work minutes and 1 min rest periods

MMA (pro) = 3rounds x 5 minutes = 15 work minutes with 1 min rest

Grappling = 5-10 min matches x 4+ depending on how far you get in event and rest varies greatly.


There are obviously big differences in the above.


Boxing require actions against minimal resistance over and over again.

Grappling requires actions against large resistance over and over again.

MMA requires actions against both over and over again.


MMA requires that balance that makes it the one of the most complicated sports in the world to prepare for, especially when you factor in the interathlete differences such as strength quality weaknesses and structural weakness. A balanced athlete in all sports requires both weight training and energy system training to varying degrees depending upon the event. The problem as we all know with substituting sparring for strenght and conditioning is that you are going to get bashed up in sparring if training at any sort of intensity. A well planned S&C programme is vital for any serious competitor.

Here's some food for thought. Jon Chaimberg (S&C coach to GSP and Jacksons camp), Ollie Richardson(S&C coach to Hardy, Daley etc) and Joe Defranco (S&C for Hardy during Primetime) aren't crossfit qualified to my knowledge and utilize targeted workouts based on their clients needs. If a crossfit approach was the way to go don't you think the best would be utilizing it. They know what they are doing because they have the education behind them either just under the bar or both under the bar and in the lecture halls.

Training must be measurable (in detail) and specific. If your not assessing, your guessing.


Oisin

(sorry for the lenght of the post but hope it helps you understand the right path to take)

OMCCABE

Chris89 wrote: »

Ah yeah of course theres more than one way to train, but assuming that fighters are the same weight and of average strength, then clearly endurance is important.

Look at both the diaz brothers, regularly compete in triathalons and they go out and kick the **** out of people

Why assume average strenght???..why not train to be strong for your weight class. I understand you didn't mean strength training was unnecessary or anything like that but this kind of statement is the common theme I've seen in the irish martial arts community.

In the scenario you've outlined though, of course you are correct and endurance would be important. Just making a point.


Oisin

Kent Brockman

It is an interesting point you make OP.
Do you feel the same for all sports e.g should Gaa players/ soccer players just train by playing more instead of running/weights/circuit training etc?

I know from my own experience that no one liked the sprints/laps/push-ups etc that we used to have to do before a practice match, and everyone would have just preferred to get straight into a match.

I also found from my time doing BJJ that I was often knackered after the warm up routines:o (jogging/high knees/star jumps/squats/press-ups etc) and would have rathered have more energy left for rolling.
I guess that was just down to my age and lack of fittness:o

arybvtcw0eolkf

Kent Brockman wrote: »

I also found from my time doing BJJ that I was often knackered after the warm up routines:o (jogging/high knees/star jumps/squats/press-ups etc) and would have rathered have more energy left for rolling.
I guess that was just down to my age and lack of fittness:o

There are a few ways of looking at this one.

A warm up shouldn't have you knackered - you probably weren't fit.

A warm up followed by tough circuits before rolling/sparring etc can help prepare a fighter for fighting under pressure, I like this and certainly feels it works - both physically and psychologically (did I spell that right?).

Anakin.S

Ryan Roddy wrote: »

Lately I have been thinking about scrapping my cardio/endurance training completly (by that I mean running, circut training etc) in favour of replacing this with extra rolling/sparring?

This has to be a joke, scrapping endurance would be like not filling your sports car with petrol

_oveless

Anakin.S wrote: »

This has to be a joke, scrapping endurance would be like not filling your sports car with petrol

I think the OP intends to replace his cardio workout with a more fight specific workout e.g. extra sparring/rolling. I like long distance running for the mental conditioning aspect, but for an anaerobic arena such as martial arts, it doesn't seem to be suited. The flip side of course is the more high intensity sparring/rolling you do the greater the chance of injury, so I'd advocate replacing long runs with incline sprints etc. rather than leaving all exercise out altogether.

Ryan Roddy

Anakin.S wrote: »

This has to be a joke, scrapping endurance would be like not filling your sports car with petrol

I understand what your thoughts but if you read paul mcveighs article in this months fighters only he is saying much the same thing as me, GSP doesnt do conditioning as part of his training, by that I mean he doesnt set anytime apart in his scedule, he gets it from pads/sparring etc and doesnt think pro fighters need to do it.

Here is the interview where he talks about it>>>

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/ufc-111-gsp-is-a-changed-fighter/3557508229

(he starts talking about at 2:30)

It makes sense to me, you can get far superior/specific conditioning from hard sessions on the pads, high intensity rolling or simulated drills like escaping from certain positions and general sparring. For me running/circut training just doesnt get the same results so it feels like wasted time.

David Haye just does short sprint sessions, and gets the rest of his training from boxing specific exercises and strength training, and I think his athleticism is something any fighter would want.

Ryan Roddy

Kent Brockman wrote: »

It is an interesting point you make OP.
Do you feel the same for all sports e.g should Gaa players/ soccer players just train by playing more instead of running/weights/circuit training etc?

I know from my own experience that no one liked the sprints/laps/push-ups etc that we used to have to do before a practice match, and everyone would have just preferred to get straight into a match.

I also found from my time doing BJJ that I was often knackered after the warm up routines:o (jogging/high knees/star jumps/squats/press-ups etc) and would have rathered have more energy left for rolling.
I guess that was just down to my age and lack of fittness:o

I think in the case of GAA players they should concentrate far more on strength and power training instead of the high intensity circuts they do currently. Especially in the off season.

Then the idea is that this strength and power can be applied on the field, what people sometimes forget is that strength training takes years of development, whereas conditioning for a fight/match can easily be obtained in 6/8 weeks.

Then when it comes to this conditioning it should all come from gaa specific exercises, so instead of laps of the pitch or sprints it should all be game specific drills with ball in hand, sprints with the ball avioding tackles or taking a pass, etc. My thoughts would be why just run when you can develop skills at the same time which is surely more efficient?More and more trainers are catching on to this in my experience, but there still is somethings which i cant understand?

For instance in lots of sport people are made to do push ups/sit ups to exhaustion during a training session on the pitch? why? to build strength/endurance is the usual answer, but there is an alternative i think?

Why not take that player and build there strength with maximal lifts on bench press, olympic lifts etc then they will have far superior strength that they can bring to the field, then dont do any of these circuts and leave all the rest of the time for developing skills and conditioning.

(By the way I am no expert these are just things Iv been thinking about and wanted to see what other people thought)

da-bres

Taking away your conditioning circuits and replacing it with sports specific sparring related activities may have its benefits, but to be constantly evolving as an athlete you must supplement your sparring with strength, speed, motor and technical training.

As OMCABE said constantly assess your fitness, your speed, strength.. evaluate your results.

Anakin.S

Ryan Roddy wrote: »

I understand what your thoughts but if you read paul mcveighs article in this months fighters only he is saying much the same thing as me, GSP doesnt do conditioning as part of his training, by that I mean he doesnt set anytime apart in his scedule, he gets it from pads/sparring etc and doesnt think pro fighters need to do it.

Here is the interview where he talks about it>>>

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/ufc-111-gsp-is-a-changed-fighter/3557508229

(he starts talking about at 2:30)

It makes sense to me, you can get far superior/specific conditioning from hard sessions on the pads, high intensity rolling or simulated drills like escaping from certain positions and general sparring. For me running/circut training just doesnt get the same results so it feels like wasted time.

David Haye just does short sprint sessions, and gets the rest of his training from boxing specific exercises and strength training, and I think his athleticism is something any fighter would want.

Cheers for the link, I should maybe read up on things before I make stupid comments about peoples training.
Sorry I didn't mean any offence.

Barry.Oglesby

Ryan I wish I'd more time to answer this but I don't I need to go eat food. If you're curious enough and are in Dublin at any stage drop me a line and come visit our gym and talk to my partner Will about this. I think what you're looking for, we already do. here's some video samples:

http://www.youtube.com/user/willheffernan

The stuff you're looking for is in fight training vids a few videos down. There's lots of stuff on there if a few fighters from various disciplines- MMA, Muay Thai, Karate, BJJ etc.

Ryan Roddy

Anakin.S wrote: »

Cheers for the link, I should maybe read up on things before I make stupid comments about peoples training.
Sorry I didn't mean any offence.

No worries at all mate, im only posting here to see what people think of the idea anyhow!

BobbyOLeary

OMCCABE wrote: »

I'll weigh in on this briefly. The training must replicate the needs of the event. Crossfit does this poorly IMO. I actually like crossfit, if I had to choose a methodology for my girlfriend it'd be right up there but for fighters it is not the optimal way to train..not even close.

Blindly applying CrossFit mainsite WODs is crap yes. Structuring CrossFit style WODs around your athlete's needs is not. That said, CrossFit is nothing new, it's just a brandname for conditioning blocks.

A well planned S&C programme is vital for any serious competitor.

True that. For the average joe like myself who just likes to roll and compete the odd time in Jitz, probably not that vital. It's helpful but it's not going to kill me if I stop my S&C work.

If a crossfit approach was the way to go don't you think the best would be utilizing it.

What exactly is a CrossFit approach? Any decent CrossFit trainer I've emailed or spoken with has always said that a personalised monitored program is key. A non-CF S&C coach can be just as bad as a CF one.

If your not assessing, your guessing.

Reading Will's blog much?:pac: