Interesting - Man survives (allegedly) for 70 years without food or water

the_monkey

Will be very interested to see how this pans out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8652837.stm

seamus

I read up on this a bit yesterday, I'm only a little more confident in this being debunked on account of it being an Indian military study and not some biased source. Though the military complex may be heavily religion-biased.

A number of studies have been carried out in an institute near Delhi on this "phenomenon" - including the guy above - and they all came back positive saying that it's a religious breakthrough. If you dig just a slight bit deeper, you discover that the studies were performed by a Jainist institution which has never published these studies and the "Doctor" heading up the research made some less-than-factual statements about faith and mystical energy overcoming worldly suffering, or some similar religious-sounding bull.

They should lock him in a room for two weeks and not interact with him. If he manages to walk out, then we have something worth studying. On the other hand, if when he dies, thank Darwin.

The more they open the door and interfere with his space, the more opportunity there is to taint the study.

Rev Hellfire

Its the Hindu scientific equivalent of Christian creationism.

robindch

the_monkey wrote: »

Will be very interested to see how this pans out

well, if he ever starts drinking or eating again, I predict no more than a few hours before he needs to pan out.

ChocolateSauce

I was going to come up with something respectable and scientific to say here, but I think "liar liar pants on fire" does the job better.

There's a great story James Randi has about on of these guys.

He claimed the same sort of stuff so to test him they'd stick him in a motel room for a few days.
So Randi and another guy are waiting outside the place without the subject knowing.
An hour into the test the guy slips out and over to the Burger King.

When they catch doing this his excuse is that he just wanted to smell the food.

kiffer

... You always wait untill they've eaten half...

Valmont

A facepalm worthy story if ever I've seen one.

mehfesto

Until he takes $1m off James Randi, I'm gonna stick to my guns and call schenanigans.

Gregor Samsa

seamus wrote: »

I read up on this a bit yesterday, I'm only a little more confident in this being debunked on account of it being an Indian military study and not some biased source. Though the military complex may be heavily religion-biased.

Yeah, I'm not so sure they're without bias. The stated aim of the study isn't to objectivly see if he actually doesn't eat, it's to find a way to reduce the need for Indian soldiers to eat in the field, which seems to assume that he goes without food from the outset.

Zillah

mehfesto wrote: »

Until he takes $1m off James Randi, I'm gonna stick to my guns and call schenanigans.

Precisely.

My call is that this is but another drop in the ocean of human gulibility.

Valmont

This sounds like the guy who claims to have not needed to put petrol into his Fiat Punto since 1990.

Weidii

Unless he's photosynthesizing...

kiffer

he'd still need water for that Weidii...

My guess is that while he does of course need to eat and drink that he may have learned to lower his metabolism and needs a surprisingly small amount of food... Though I doubt that's good for you...
If it can help in an emergency it might be worth learning about.
Also when you haven't eaten in a good while doesn't your body go into "starvation mode" or something?
Meh...

Zombrex

the_monkey wrote: »

Will be very interested to see how this pans out

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8652837.stm

Imagine if he claimed this 2000 years ago and the only records we have of such an evident were from the writings of his followers

No one would believe such a thing actually happened .... oh wait :pac:

robindch

the_monkey wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8652837.stm

Not the first time that Mr Jani has turned up in hospital to breathe his way into the record books. Last time he did it in 2003, he apparently claimed that he'd been fasting not for seventy years, but just for "several decades":

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm

seamus

robindch wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/3236118.stm

The ignorance of the doctors in that study was astounding really:

A statement from Ahmedabad's Association of Physicians says that despite no water entering his body, urine nonetheless appeared to form in his bladder - only to be re-absorbed by the bladder walls.

I'd love to know how they determined that urine formed in the bladder and then disappeared again. Did they have a camera in his urethra the entire time, or perhaps they X-rayed him on an hourly basis?

"A hole in the palate is an abnormal phenomenon," says Dr Desai.

A "Doctor" claiming that a cleft palate is a "phenomenon"?

At the end of his confinement, doctors noted no deterioration in his condition, other than a slight drop in his weight.

Well he hasn't eaten in ten days. You can be fairly sure he'll lose weight. A "slight drop" in his weight indicates perfectly that there's no way he's been fasting for decades, rather he's managed to adjust his metabolism to very low levels, presumably through low activity and fasting.
If hhe experiences a drop in weight during a ten-day study, then surely he would have died if he'd been fasting for tens of thousands of days?

Dades

seamus wrote: »

The ignorance of the doctors in that study was astounding really

Couldn't help but think of...

iUseVi

Sorry couldn't resist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOwX0qGhdlg

bogwalrus

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/18/20100510/tod-starving-yogi-astounds-indian-scient-451ab4f.html

MikeC101

During the period, he neither ate nor drank and did not go to the toilet.

"(Jani's) only contact with any kind of fluid was during gargling and bathing periodically during the period," G. Ilavazahagan, director of India's Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS), said in a statement.

Hmmm...

"You didn't drink any of that water you gargled did you, Jani?"

"Oh no, no, not one bit."

Isn't 15 days a bit too short a period to be making any massive inferences from also?

Or am I just being excessively skeptical?

liamw

MikeC101 wrote: »

Or am I just being excessively skeptical?

Definitely ye, it's probably just another miracle.. they're everywhere these days

Kooli

MikeC101 wrote: »

Or am I just being excessively skeptical?

I'm wondering the same thing. It sounds completely mental, but if the evidence is there...

MikeC101

MikeC101 wrote: »

Hmmm...

"You didn't drink any of that water you gargled did you, Jani?"

"Oh no, no, not one bit."

Isn't 15 days a bit too short a period to be making any massive inferences from also?

Or am I just being excessively skeptical?

Wow.
I really should get in contact with these fellas, I have a bridge to sell them...

einshteen

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

I was going to come up with something respectable and scientific to say here, but I think "liar liar pants on fire" does the job better.

Ah, the belief system of the atheist, as strong as any Christian's beliefs, still trapped in the web of Aristotelian logic. In science, the observations precede the theory, not the other way around.

Was the Ram Bahadur Bomjon case not a shock to your belief system?

Zillah

einshteen wrote: »

Was the Ram Bahadur Bomjon case not a shock to your belief system?

The guy who hid behind a screen every night while claiming to be fasting? Shockingly enough, no, that does not conflict with my world view at all. Every single time one of these loopers claims they have supernatural powers there is always a gigantic flaw in their claim that would let them fake the whole thing. Every time. The sheer consistency of it is one of the reasons I am so confident in my scepticism, and one of the reasons someone might simply resort to "liar liar pants on fire".

einshteen

Zillah wrote: »

The guy who hid behind a screen every night while claiming to be fasting? Shockingly enough, no, that does not conflict with my world view at all. Every single time one of these loopers claims they have supernatural powers there is always a gigantic flaw in their claim that would let them fake the whole thing. Every time. The sheer consistency of it is one of the reasons I am so confident in my scepticism, and one of the reasons someone might simply resort to "liar liar pants on fire".

Perhaps not... however the Discovery Channel did film him for 4 days & nights without food and water. If you're suggesting that the Discovery crew were in on it too you're gonna end up with a seriously elaborate theory. He has been at it for nearly 6 years at this point, though I read somewhere that he said he had eaten some herbs when he left the original place and went into the forest.

If it is true, it's not necessarily some supernatural event, but a demonstration of the potential of human adaptation. All I've heard are self-proclaimed "skeptics" (and that term is applied far too loosely these days) who are too threatened by the idea to even consider the possibility.

axer

einshteen wrote: »

Perhaps not... however the Discovery Channel did film him for 4 days & nights without food and water. If you're suggesting that the Discovery crew were in on it too you're gonna end up with a seriously elaborate theory. He has been at it for nearly 6 years at this point, though I read somewhere that he said he had eaten some herbs when he left the original place and went into the forest.

The average human can live for 4 to 6 weeks without food (but can go much further than this depending on state of mind and their metabolism amongst other factors) and upto a week without water. I would be amazed if they had stayed with him for at least a week. 4 days don't mean jack s'hit.

einshteen wrote: »

If it is true, it's not necessarily some supernatural event, but a demonstration of the potential of human adaptation. All I've heard are self-proclaimed "skeptics" (and that term is applied far too loosely these days) who are too threatened by the idea to even consider the possibility.

I am not skeptical of the power of the mind since it does control your entire body however a body loses water whether you like it or not thus eventually you will dehydrate and die - unless of course their body has some sort of difference through mutation or defect that stops their body from losing water but this would be seriously extreme and from what I know unheard of.

Ickle Magoo

einshteen wrote: »

Perhaps not... however the Discovery Channel did film him for 4 days & nights without food and water. If you're suggesting that the Discovery crew were in on it too you're gonna end up with a seriously elaborate theory. He has been at it for nearly 6 years at this point, though I read somewhere that he said he had eaten some herbs when he left the original place and went into the forest.

Even if he wasn't eating or drinking, 4 days without food and water is not even an unusual feat, I believe 18 days is the current record.

Zillah

Four days aint nothin'.

Also, I'm not threatened by this stuff. I would desperately love for human beings to develop super powers. The X-Men is great fun. I would like Magneto's powers, how about you? However, I see no reason to believe in supernatural abilities based on exactly nothing except human testimony, especially considering that 100% of occassions in the past where such claims have been investigated they were shown to be false.

einshteen

Zillah wrote: »

Four days aint nothin'.

Also, I'm not threatened by this stuff. I would desperately love for human beings to develop super powers. The X-Men is great fun. I would like Magneto's powers, how about you? However, I see no reason to believe in supernatural abilities based on exactly nothing except human testimony,

Can't say I've seen X-Men As I said it doesn't have to be supernatural. Four days is quite an impressive time to sit motionless without food and water regardless. It does provide some evidence for the other claims.

Anyways, I didn't say I 'believe' in it, that was my point about Aristotelian logic, true/false, black/white. Consider it probabilistically, and you will find that there is a non-zero chance that he is telling the truth. How that conditional probability table looks depends on our own knowledge and experience, and each of us is holding a VERY small piece of the puzzle.

especially considering that 100% of occassions in the past where such claims have been investigated they were shown to be false.

100%? Consider the Lourdes Medical Bureau. There are a number of well-documented cases of spontaneous healing. Is it possible that at least some humans have the capacity to spontaneously heal themselves under the right circumstances (akin to the teachings of Kundalini yoga), but that such a phenomenon is so rare as to be immeasurable? Perhaps. Is it possible that the doctors deliberately fabricated the evidence? Perhaps. There are many possibilities, and only the people who were there and saw it happen know for sure, so, a true skeptic would remain open to the possibility and put that non-zero value in their mental probability table

To reiterate, it is not that I believe or disbelieve it, simply that it is unscientific to allow the theory to precede the observations (though unavoidably human - I am sure I am blind to my own prejudices also).

axer

einshteen wrote: »

It does provide some evidence for the other claims.

No it doesn't prove or provide evidence for anything other than it gives the word of some nat geo staff that that guy stayed without food or water for 4 days and nights - nothing more.

einshteen

einshteen wrote: »

Can't say I've seen X-Men As I said it doesn't have to be supernatural. Four days is quite an impressive time to sit motionless without food and water regardless. It does provide some evidence for the other claims.

Didn't David Blaine go that long without food and water? While trapped in a block of ice?
And why, if he was indeed fasting for long, not let the cameras stay on him for a couple of weeks?
In the documentary I saw they weren't very eager to that.

einshteen wrote: »

Anyways, I didn't say I 'believe' in it, that was my point about Aristotelian logic, true/false, black/white. Consider it probabilistically, and you will find that there is a non-zero chance that he is telling the truth. How that conditional probability table looks depends on our own knowledge and experience, and each of us is holding a VERY small piece of the puzzle.

Yeah and there's a non-zero chance of a car spontanously transforming into a car.
Possible does not equal likely.
it is far more likely that these guys are lying than that they have supernatural powers.

einshteen wrote: »

100%? Consider the Lourdes Medical Bureau. There are a number of well-documented cases of spontaneous healing.

Bull****.
Is there any scientific papers confirming any of these cases?

If they were so well documented and stuff, why don't they claim James Randi's Million Dollar Prize?
I sure they could use that money to help get more people to Lourdes.

einshteen wrote: »

Is it possible that at least some humans have the capacity to spontaneously heal themselves under the right circumstances (akin to the teachings of Kundalini yoga), but that such a phenomenon is so rare as to be immeasurable? Perhaps. Is it possible that the doctors deliberately fabricated the evidence? Perhaps.

Kundalini Yoga has never been show to induce "Spontaneous Healing".
There is no plausible mechanism in the body to allow for it.

Why do you think it does exactly?

einshteen wrote: »

There are many possibilities, and only the people who were there and saw it happen know for sure,

No they don't actually.
The human mind is very open to fooling itself.

einshteen wrote: »

so, a true skeptic would remain open to the possibility and put that non-zero value in their mental probability table

I do. But given the track record of some of these claims, I don't take them seriously.

einshteen wrote: »

To reiterate, it is not that I believe or disbelieve it, simply that it is unscientific to allow the theory to precede the observations (though unavoidably human - I am sure I am blind to my own prejudices also).

And that's the thing, the observations in these cases are flawed.
They allow for the possibility that they are cheating,

robindch

einshteen wrote: »

All I've heard are self-proclaimed "skeptics" [...] who are too threatened by the idea to even consider the possibility.

Are you seriously saying that if somebody calls bullshit on this guy that they're doing it because they feel "threatened"?

As opposed, say, to pointing and laughing at him? :rolleyes:

einshteen

axer wrote: »

No it doesn't prove or provide evidence for anything other than it gives the word of some nat geo staff that that guy stayed without food or water for 4 days and nights - nothing more.

Perhaps coming from an Artificial Intelligence background I use the term 'evidence' in a different sense, I use it in the sense of Bayesian probability, in reference to the probabilistic mode of thinking I was talking about. i.e. evidence is any observation that alters the probabilistic outcome of the thing in question.

Edit: To clarify, I'm talking about personal inferences, not saying that academic science (which would be wholly impractical living day to day) should infer to the same degree.

King Mob wrote: »

Didn't David Blaine go that long without food and water? While trapped in a block of ice?
And why, if he was indeed fasting for long, not let the cameras stay on him for a couple of weeks?
In the documentary I saw they weren't very eager to that.

Fair point. Perhaps they were concerned for the wellbeing of their family member? Perhaps it is a total crock... I maintain agnosticism in this case.

There is a simple litmus test for bull****, and that is "what does this person have to gain?" Ram Bomjon's family probably made some attempt to profit from it, but the kid himself was training to be a monk when he decided to pursue this goal, I doubt he gives a hoot what any of us think. In my assessment, he doesn't have the motive to lie. If you wanted to cultivate fame and money, I could think of better ways than meditating for 6 years.

Bull****.
Is there any scientific papers confirming any of these cases?

Yes. You have access to Google Scholar. Do you want me to hold your hand?

If they were so well documented and stuff, why don't they claim James Randi's Million Dollar Prize?
I sure they could use that money to help get more people to Lourdes.

That prize is given out under mutually agreed test conditions. How could you demonstrate it after it has happened?

Kundalini Yoga has never been show to induce "Spontaneous Healing".
There is no plausible mechanism in the body to allow for it.

Says who? I have read a number of accounts of the phenomenon. Right now you're probably thinking that that means I 'believe in it'. I'm simply open minded. Is it possible we don't know everything? There have been no studies (in English at least) done to date (and if you haven't noticed yogi's don't seem particularly concerned with what people halfway across the world think of them).

If the only evidence is first-hand accounts, then it is open to speculation, nobody knows the answer. The difference is, you are cocksure even with the lack of evidence, whereas I am simply conscious of how little I know.

No they don't actually.
The human mind is very open to fooling itself.

Agreed. Neither you or I are exempt from that.

I do. But given the track record of some of these claims, I don't take them seriously.

Fair enough, there's plenty of quacks out there.

And that's the thing, the observations in these cases are flawed.
They allow for the possibility that they are cheating,

I presume you're saying that the observations are flawed because they are subjective? True, they are highly open to suggestion, but science is an expensive and lengthy process that is still in an early stage, and I don't know how anyone would go about devising an experiment to measure the alleged "Kundalini awakening" experience. If it's not measurable it's outside the scope of the scientific method.

Until such time that we have evidence that suggests either way, our conclusions are somewhat arbitrary. Despite the lack of evidence, you insist it is impossible, whereas I remain open minded.

Anyways, that's all from me, I've said what I had to say and I'm not into this whole internet warrior business. Been a pleasure.

einshteen

einshteen wrote: »

Fair point. Perhaps they were concerned for the wellbeing of their family member? Perhaps it is a total crock... I maintain agnosticism in this case.

There is a simple litmus test for bull****, and that is "what does this person have to gain?" Ram Bomjon's family probably made some attempt to profit from it, but the kid himself was training to be a monk when he decided to pursue this goal, I doubt he gives a hoot what any of us think. In my assessment, he doesn't have the motive to lie. If you wanted to cultivate fame and money, I could think of better ways than meditating for 6 years.

Or he could just be crazy or deluded. Either because of himself or because of family pressure or both.
And you realise that he is already quite famous right?
With over 400,000 people going through the jungle just to see him?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Bahadur_Bomjon#Reappearance_in_Ratanpuri_jungle

einshteen wrote: »

Yes. You have access to Google Scholar. Do you want me to hold your hand?

So that's a no then.
Otherwise you'd have posted the papers.

But yea, how rude of me, I should be backing up your claims with only you knowing which cases your talking about.

einshteen wrote: »

That prize is given out under mutually agreed test conditions. How could you demonstrate it after it has happened?

Having a neutral party actually peer review the paper you claim exist.
If they are as well documented as you say they are I don't see the problem.

einshteen wrote: »

Says who? I have read a number of accounts of the phenomenon. Right now you're probably thinking that that means I 'believe in it'. I'm simply open minded. Is it possible we don't know everything? There have been no studies (in English at least) done to date (and if you haven't noticed yogi's don't seem particularly concerned with what people halfway across the world think of them).

Yes as I said:
Kundalini Yoga has never been shown to induce "Spontaneous Healing".

And no, there isn't a plausible mechanism for it to happen.
Can you suggest one?
Have these yogi's with no interest in the truth or helping people proposed one that wasn't "magic"?

einshteen wrote: »

If the only evidence is first-hand accounts, then it is open to speculation, nobody knows the answer. The difference is, you are cocksure even with the lack of evidence, whereas I am simply conscious of how little I know.

Read the words I've written.
I'm not saying it's not true.
I'm specifically saying there is no evidence to support the supernatural explanation and a non supernatural explanation can explain all the facts observed.
Therefore in the absense of any convincing evidence of a supernatural explanation, it's probably not.

einshteen wrote: »

Agreed. Neither you or I are exempt from that.

Never claimed to be.

einshteen wrote: »

Fair enough, there's plenty of quacks out there.

So how do you personally tell the difference?

einshteen wrote: »

I presume you're saying that the observations are flawed because they are subjective? True, they are highly open to suggestion,

And open to self delusion, trickery, social pressures, misidentified natural phenomena...

einshteen wrote: »

but science is an expensive and lengthy process that is still in an early stage,

Any suggestions for something to use instead?

einshteen wrote: »

and I don't know how anyone would go about devising an experiment to measure the alleged "Kundalini awakening" experience. If it's not measurable it's outside the scope of the scientific method.

Well you claimed that it can cause spontaneous healing.
That's very easy to test.

einshteen wrote: »

Until such time that we have evidence that suggests either way, our conclusions are somewhat arbitrary. Despite the lack of evidence, you insist it is impossible, whereas I remain open minded.

Anyways, that's all from me, I've said what I had to say and I'm not into this whole internet warrior business. Been a pleasure.

Yea the asking for evidence to find out if it's true or not, that makes me closed minded alright.

Galvasean

Looks like I get to use my favourite video again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Zillah

How can someone not have seen X-Men?

Galvasean

Zillah wrote: »

How can someone not have seen X-Men?

Best cartoon ever.

The Mad Hatter

Galvasean wrote: »

Best cartoon ever.

omg, that's the second part of the last episode I ever saw!