Enda Kenny - Dangerous and Unsuitable for Office

skearon

Enda Kenny again proved how incapable he is to run the country by stating, in the Dáil yesterday, that Irish banks held €7 billion in Greek bonds, a figure that would have had huge implications for their tier one capital requirements as well as for the cost of Irish borrowing, when the actual figure was a mere €40 million.

Such mistakes prove how inept Kenny is, he claims he is able to run the country, however I wouldnt trust his to run a sweet shop!

northwest100

Yes, FF have done an outstanding job so far.

danman

Any one can make a mistake, I don't know of any individual that hasn't.
Perhaps he should withdraw the comment.

I don't really like political point scoring, as a rule. But if it was a genuine mistake that would be ok.

Enda is many things, but I wouldn't class him as dangerous.

Edit : in fact, the fact that he's not dangerous is one of his failings in my view. He comes across as lacking any balls. It's just my own personal view of him.

skearon

northwest100 wrote: »

Yes, FF have done an outstanding job so far.

Whether they have or not, is not the point. This thread is about how inept Kenny is.

But you might want to read the influencial Lex column in yesterday's Financial Times regarding the Irish Government and Brian Lenihan - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/aaad9d90-52a0-11df-a192-00144feab49a.html

skearon

danman wrote: »

Any one can make a mistake, I don't know of any individual that hasn't.
Perhaps he should withdraw the comment.

I don't really like political point scoring, as a rule. But if it was a genuine mistake that would be ok.

Enda is many things, but I wouldn't class him as dangerous.

He is dangerous in terms of economic future of the country, remarks such as his can directly cause the cost of Irish borrowing to rise, if he can't get basic facts right, he should stop pretending he can be Taoiseach.

danman

Praise indeed.

Edit: sorry, you jumped in ahead of me. This is directed to the FT article.

northwest100

skearon wrote:

Bertie Ahern has not been found guilty of any crime, there is such thing as due process!

Yes, I'm in favour of good auld Bertie Ahern being reappointed leader of the country..he'll get us out of this mess we're in, won't he?
He's an economic genius..

bladespin

danman wrote: »

Any one can make a mistake, I don't know of any individual that hasn't.
Perhaps he should withdraw the comment.

Definately couldn't accuse Enda of being dangerous though I'd love to see him in a Willie O'Dea/dirty Harry pose

I'd say, if anything, Enda's been far too careful about his speeches, political opportunity is presenting itself every day now, it seems, even yesterday the government rolled back on itself again with Anglo, Enda should be pointing these failings and shambolic mistakes out with a glow stick.
Get roaring Enda.

Economically could he be considered as dangerous as Brian Cowen, who's policies almost single handedly caused this crisis? I doubt it. People here are fickle, they forget easily, foreign investors and lenders aren't quite so forgiving.

baalthor

This was first stated by RTE's economics correspondent so Enda isn't the only person to be misled.
Apparently the ?7b includes ALL Irish institutions including the IFSC.
I would give Enda a pass on this one; it's not 'hospital ship' territory :-D

zootroid

skearon wrote: »

Enda Kenny again proved how incapable he is to run the country by stating, in the Dáil yesterday, that Irish banks held €7 billion in Greek bonds, a figure that would have had huge implications for their tier one capital requirements as well as for the cost of Irish borrowing, when the actual figure was a mere €40 million.

Such mistakes prove how inept Kenny is, he claims he is able to run the country, however I wouldnt trust his to run a sweet shop!

And Cowen is better? Cowen stood on the floor of the New York stock exchange, proclaiming how Irish banks are well capitalised three months before the bank guarantee was brought in. Link here

skearon wrote: »

Whether they have or not, is not the point. This thread is about how inept Kenny is.

But you might want to read the influencial Lex column in yesterday's Financial Times regarding the Irish Government and Brian Lenihan - http://www.ft.com/cms/s/3/aaad9d90-52a0-11df-a192-00144feab49a.html

I think Lenihan is one of the better Ministers we have. However, despite his decision to cut 4 billion in the last budget, he almost didn't get his way as Cowen was trying to placate the unions. It should also be noted that FG had similar proposals to cut 4 billion, except they weren't going to cut anyone who was on 30k or less.

Atlantic Dawn

If Bertie was still in power the party would still be on :rolleyes:

Raiser

Enda Kenny always reminds me of a minor Actor like you might see in the local Community Centres amateur drama type Play - Sure he gets handed his lines and comes on Stage to deliver them with lots of swagger and gutsy finger pointing for dramatic emphasis, but the whole performance is creaky, poorly implemented, badly planned, impossible to take seriously or even believe and usually its all just very,very cringe-worthy.

To my mind he has always had a significant share of the blame for the results of the June '07 elections as the notion to back Enda Kenny comes as naturally to the thinking Man as the notion to stab your own Retinas with a butter knife.

Marshy

Raiser wrote: »

Enda Kenny always reminds me of a minor Actor like you might see in the local Community Centres amateur drama type Play - Sure he gets handed his lines and comes on Stage to deliver them with lots of swagger and gutsy finger pointing for dramatic emphasis, but the whole performance is creaky, poorly implemented, badly planned, impossible to take seriously or even believe and usually its all just very,very cringe-worthy.

Lol, yeah I remember him from the the FG party political broadcast for the elections last year. Car crash telly at its finest!

Liam Byrne

skearon wrote: »

Enda Kenny again proved how incapable he is to run the country by stating, in the Dáil yesterday, that Irish banks held €7 billion in Greek bonds, a figure that would have had huge implications for their tier one capital requirements as well as for the cost of Irish borrowing, when the actual figure was a mere €40 million.

Such mistakes prove how inept Kenny is, he claims he is able to run the country, however I wouldnt trust his to run a sweet shop!

So Kenny was what, €6.9 billion out on his "basic facts" ?

I seem to remember Lenihan telling us that around €20 billion would save Anglo, and so far he's been out by about €22 billion.

People in glasshouses, etc......

dvpower

skearon wrote: »

Enda Kenny again proved how incapable he is to run the country by stating, in the Dáil yesterday, that Irish banks held €7 billion in Greek bonds, a figure that would have had huge implications for their tier one capital requirements as well as for the cost of Irish borrowing, when the actual figure was a mere €40 million.

Such mistakes prove how inept Kenny is, he claims he is able to run the country, however I wouldnt trust his to run a sweet shop!

But before he made the error you were going to vote for him, right?

Raiser

Yeah but why oh why does it have to be an either or situation?????

April 2010 and People are still debating that Fianna Fail are destined to stay in Government forever simply because Enda Kenny is the type of Simpleton who would probably forget how to tie his laces if he learnt how to operate his DVD Player?

- Although, that said, it does just about discount Fine Gael in their entirety that they haven't seen fit to pull him off the Stage after 838 verses of Inda singing the same old tuneless, ear-shattering, nonsensical and so obviously unpopular song.....

Sleepy

Never mind the fact that if FG were elected to power and Kenny becomes Taoiseach, it'll be Richard Bruton (one of the very few economically literate politicians in Ireland) who'll be running the Department of Finance.

Or is that just too inconvenient a truth for you to swallow?

danman

Raiser wrote: »

Enda Kenny always reminds me of a minor Actor like you might see in the local Community Centres amateur drama.......

it rare that you get a laugh on politics forum, but I just did Reading that.
It actually sums up how I see him, but I could never put it into words.

I always see him as the spoilt child at the shop protesting on the floor, screaming "BUT, I WANT IT......"

jmayo

skearon wrote: »

He is dangerous in terms of economic future of the country, remarks such as his can directly cause the cost of Irish borrowing to rise, if he can't get basic facts right, he should stop pretending he can be Taoiseach.

Well AFAIK Enda hasn't cost us anything yet, whereas biffo and great lenny (always remeber the senior counsel condoned another legal professional in lying on a sworn affadivit to the high court) have cost us how many billions again 40/50 or some wuch when you work out the bank recapitalisations, the money NAMA will probably lose and the spiralling current budget deficit.

Puts it in a bit of prespective now doesn't it :rolleyes:

Raiser wrote: »

...
To my mind he has always had a significant share of the blame for the results of the June '07 elections as the notion to back Enda Kenny comes as naturally to the thinking Man as the notion to stab your own Retinas with a butter knife.

So did you vote for a shyster who couldn't explain wads of cash in his safe, who was getting nearly one of the value of a house he didn't own to do it up even though it was only a few years old ?
Oh and don't forget he promoted and defended a corrupt politican (who had questions hanging over him since the 70s) and gave unsigned cheques to another one.

Raiser wrote: »

Yeah but why oh why does it have to be an either or situation?????

April 2010 and People are still debating that Fianna Fail are destined to stay in Government forever simply because Enda Kenny is the type of Simpleton who would probably forget how to tie his laces if he learnt how to operate his DVD Player?

- Although, that said, it does just about discount Fine Gael in their entirety that they haven't seen fit to pull him off the Stage after 838 verses of Inda singing the same old tuneless, ear-shattering, nonsensical and so obviously unpopular song.....

Maybe they know something you don't ?
He managed to pull together a party that had suffered a huge election defeat and was on it's knees, he managed to almost beat a shyster that was so beloved by the gombeens of this country that he was one of the most popular taoiseachs ever.
Remeber how Kenny (and Rabitte) got slated for attacking poor cry baby bertie.

Always remember that Bruton would be calling the shots in Finance and you have other very capable people like Dr James Reilly holding prominent ministries.

And then look who you have at present and please don't say lenihan.
He has screwed up and cost us too much already or have you forgotten VAT increases, not fully reading report on Anglo and the actual guarantee of Anglo and INBS that will add to our national debt and cost us well above 25 billion euro ?

Raiser

jmayo wrote: »

So did you vote for a shyster who couldn't explain wads of cash in his safe, who was getting nearly one of the value of a house he didn't own to do it up even though it was only a few years old ?
Oh and don't forget he promoted and defended a corrupt politican (who had questions hanging over him since the 70s) and gave unsigned cheques to another one.

I didn't say that, imply that or post anything that would indicate such a stance - You've simply said that I did through speed reading, poor comprehension or to falsely bolster your own views. I'd like to refute and disassociate myself from your comments as they most certainly misrepresent my position.....

jmayo wrote: »

Maybe they know something you don't ?
He managed to pull together a party that had suffered a huge election defeat and was on it's knees, he managed to almost beat a shyster that was so beloved by the gombeens of this country that he was one of the most popular taoiseachs ever.

Enda Kenny is a walking joke of a Politician, I don't care what positive attributes you see in him - He can get the A Team to sing Karaoke with the Pope for all I care - his past history is more damp, limp and generally vapid than his lacklustre future.

Furthermore, and in retrospect, I blame him for sitting, bloated, washed-up, wedged and useless in the Opposition corner blocking the way of new blood when he himself never, ever had the skill, natural talent and hunger to take on and knock out his Opponents in the ring.

- Oh yes he "almost beat" a Political Opponent who was actually leaving the Dock in Tribunals to contest the Election with him and he still managed to fcuk it up - To return to the boxing analogies this is akin to having to beat a blind, one-legged, one armed, concussed 10 year old, who keeps having double-vision and dizzy spells.

anymore

Maybe Useless Enda could audition for 'Waiting For Godot' !

jmayo

Raiser wrote: »

I didn't say that, imply that or post anything that would indicate such a stance - You've simply said that I did through speed reading, poor comprehension or to falsely bolster your own views. I'd like to refute and disassociate myself from your comments as they most certainly misrepresent my position.....

I just asked if you voted for the other guy i.e. bertie, since you have such a low opinion of Kenny and the claims you made about how you felt when you saw him.

There is no need for the condescending attitude.

Talking about speed reading did you notice it was a question I asked and not a statement.
Little hint there was a question mark at the end of the sentence.

Raiser wrote: »

Enda Kenny is a walking joke of a Politician, I don't care what positive attributes you see in him - He can get the A Team to sing Karaoke with the Pope for all I care - his past history is more damp, limp and generally vapid than his lacklustre future.

Furthermore, and in retrospect, I blame him for sitting, bloated, washed-up, wedged and useless in the Opposition corner blocking the way of new blood when he himself never, ever had the skill, natural talent and hunger to take on and knock out his Opponents in the ring.

- Oh yes he "almost beat" a Political Opponent who was actually leaving the Dock in Tribunals to contest the Election with him and he still managed to fcuk it up - To return to the boxing analogies this is akin to having to beat a blind, one-legged, one armed, concussed 10 year old, who keeps having double-vision and dizzy spells.

I am assuming you are smart enough to have noticed he can't knock out the government because they have a majority.
You do know how the Irish political process works and how much power party whips have ?
In most democracies the government would have fallen due to the fact either the people would be on the streets or half of the government tds would have resigned in shame on principle.
Most of our politicans, particularly those of ff don't do resigning on principle and the Irish people would much rather bitch and whine, go to the pub, fight amongst themselves for their own narrow interests than get out on the streets to bring this government down as in Iceland.

It doesn't matter if Enda skins cowen, makes smart pity remarks like Gilmore or makes a speech like the last great Dáil orator John Kelly if the government TDs toe the line then we are stuck with this government.

BTW you might also have noticed that the opposition did less well in the polls pre election 2007 when they attacked bertie, that because the gombeen Irish electorate bought his sob stories thanks in part to the soft RTE interview.

danman

Have you read his post at all, he's not talking about knocking out the government in the Dail, he was talking about GE 2007.

BH was on the ropes in 2007, he was there for the taking, yet Enda managed to grasp a defeat from the claws of a win.

You must really think a lot of Bertie if you think he was so influencial to the electorate.

nacho libre

danman wrote: »

Have you read his post at all, he's not talking about knocking out the government in the Dail, he was talking about GE 2007.

BH was on the ropes in 2007, he was there for the taking, yet Enda managed to grasp a defeat from the claws of a win.

.

yes you could see in that debate Ahern had no respect for Kenny as a political performer. it was really dispriting stuff to watch because you just knew the likes of John Bruton and Dick Spring would have wiped the floor with Ahern.

Pride Fighter

I agree. Not only that, he is a racist. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/15/world.race

Drumpot

Why is it that people assume if you attack FG or Labour you are automatically pro FF ?

I dont know the motivations of OP, but I can safely say Im a floating voter . .

I WOULD vote for FF if I felt the candidate in my area reflected my principles and if I felt they were the best of the rest. For the record I have voted for FG, Independents and FF in the past, I vote for candidates, not parties.

I DONT agree with people saying "anybody but FF" as it completely ignores the problem with our political system. The biggest problem in this country is the electorate. They have to change their attitudes and not only vote for what is best for them personally, but what they believe is best for the country. . I simply dont think we are mature enough a nation to do it. A government generally mirrors its people and it certainly mirrored our greedy appetites during the "boom" years.

The first people to blame for the state of the country is the electorate . . Plain and simple. If Bertie/FF werent in power(or whoever you blame) they couldnt of caused the damage they did.

The people of Ireland OBVIOUSLY havent accepted this because most people say the silly "anybody but FF" statement without thinking about how low they are setting the bar for the opposition. Not only that, the opposition have been nothing short of lame. They cant even properly attack the least popular government in the history of the country and only respond to populist agenda's.

We need to accept the role we played in bringing our country to where we are and also accept that part of our penance is to demand more from our TD's for the greater good of Ireland. Question their credibility and ability to do whats right for IRELAND (not just ourselves). Dont accept "anybody but FF" is a solution to our problems. Only then do we deserve the opportunity to point fingers at some of the bigger players in our decline.

We , as a nation , got greedy and collectively buried our heads in the sand while the going was generally good. Whether you voted FF or not is irrelevant. Nobody protested on the streets at what was going on. Doing nothing was nearly as bad as voting for FF. The people who get into power, do so, at our hands. Looking for somebody else to blame will only mean we have learned nothing from our mistakes in the past.

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

Why is it that people assume if you attack FG or Labour you are automatically pro FF ?

I dont know the motivations of OP, but I can safely say Im a floating voter . .

I WOULD vote for FF if I felt the candidate in my area reflected my principles and if I felt they were the best of the rest. For the record I have voted for FG, Independents and FF in the past, I vote for candidates, not parties.

So would you vote for a SF candidate if they reflected your principles or would their membership of the party make you doubt their judgement? I'm quite certain SFs political ideas would influence your vote, and rightly so. Similarly you need to take into account FFs performance and acceptance of corruption waste and wrongdoing.You cant simply extract a candidate from their party. Presently if someone is canvassing or running for FF i have to seriously quesyion their judgement, their motives and their integrity just like i would with Shinners

PS the OP is a staunch FF supporter

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

So would you vote for a SF candidate if they reflected your principles or would their membership of the party make you doubt their judgement? I'm quite certain SFs political ideas would influence your vote, and rightly so. Similarly you need to take into account FFs performance and acceptance of corruption waste and wrongdoing.You can simply extract a candidate from their party. Presently if someone is canvassing or running for FF i have to seriously quesyion their judgement, their motives and their integrity just like i would with Shinners

You assume voting for somebody means you have to be a member of their party . . I dont think voting for a FF candidate means I am a member of the party. Nor do I believe it means I support everything the party does. If I believe a particular TD can make a differance for the better, then it shouldnt matter what party they are in. Whats the point in voting independents if you believe that its all about the "party"? You want your candidate to influence change for the better.

The principles of the a party I would vote for :

(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people. (ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.
(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.
(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.
(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.
(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.
(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland's independent foreign policy tradition.
(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.




This is very differant to what Sinn Fein Stands for, so your point on them is irrelevant. I think most people in this country would vote for this party. BUT wait . . These are the supposed principles of FF .

Again, my point is that its not necessarily the party thats the problem its the morals, principles and conviction of the individuals who are leading the party at the moment. But these traits are molded by the electorate . .

This is not a pro FF post (which people who haven't read it properly will assume). Its a post to try to get people to open their eyes and look on politics in a holistic view as opposed to the childish, narrow minded view we, as a nation usually take (vote for whoever tells us what we like to hear).

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

You assume voting for somebody means you have to be a member of their party . . I dont think voting for a FF candidate means I am a member of the party. Nor do I believe it means I support everything the party does. If I believe a particular TD can make a differance for the better, then it shouldnt matter what party they are in. Whats the point in voting independents if you believe that its all about the "party"? You want your candidate to influence change for the better.

The principles of the a party I would vote for :

(i) To secure in peace and agreement the unity of Ireland and its people. (ii) To develop a distinctive national life in accordance with the diverse traditions and ideals of the Irish people as part of a broader European culture, and to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people.
(iii) To guarantee religious and civil liberty, and equal rights, equal treatment and equal opportunities for all the people of Ireland.
(iv) To develop the resources and wealth of Ireland to their full potential, while making them subservient to the needs and welfare of all the people of Ireland, so as to provide the maximum sustainable employment, based on fostering a spirit of enterprise and self-reliance and on social partnership.
(v) To protect the natural environment and heritage of Ireland and to ensure a balance between town and country and between the regions, and to maintain as many families as practicable on the land.
(vi) To promote the family, and a wider sense of social responsibility, and to uphold the rule of law in the interest of the welfare and safety of the public.
(vii) To maintain the status of Ireland as a sovereign State, as a full member of the European Union and the United Nations, contributing to peace, disarmament and development on the basis of Ireland's independent foreign policy tradition.
(viii) To reform the laws and institutions of State, to make them efficient, humane, caring and responsive to the needs of the citizen.




This is very differant to what Sinn Fein Stands for, so your point on them is irrelevant. I think most people in this country would vote for this party. BUT wait . . These are the supposed principles of FF .

Again, my point is that its not necessarily the party thats the problem its the morals, principles and conviction of the individuals who are leading the party at the moment. But these traits are molded by the electorate . .

This is not a pro FF post (which people who haven't read it properly will assume). Its a post to try to get people to open their eyes and look on politics in a holistic view as opposed to the childish, narrow minded view we, as a nation usually take (vote for whoever tells us what we like to hear).

I also vote for the 'best' candidate rather than party but part of that 'best' involves the judgements they've made when alligning themselves with a party. This is not an issue with independents. I dont care what FFs supposed ideology is, i know them by their actions- what they have condoned and what they have overseen. A candidate who runs for them immediately handicaps themslves by their ill choice of party

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

I also vote for the 'best' candidate rather than party but part of that 'best' involves the judgwments they've made when alligning themselves with a party. This is not an issue with independents. I dont care what FFs supposed ideology is, i know them by their actions- what they have condoned and what they have overseen. A candidate who runs for them immediarely handicaps themslves by their ill choice of party

Agree with some of that . .

But are you saying if you had 3 candidates on front of you and the best candidate (who you felt was honest and looking out most for the interests of this country), you would basically not vote for them if they were aligned with FF ?

Thats my point . . Yes, its a strike against their name in your eyes, but it doesn't mean they aren't the most capable candidate.

And the ideologies of the party are vital. You mentioned Sinn Fein, who most of us wouldnt vote for if they had superman himself! The actions of the existing members of FF is more representative of what we, the electorate demanded, then the ideology that the party is supposed to represent.

Everything I am saying is about getting people to think properly about why they vote for somebody. What principles do you believe in? What sort of community do you want ?

Haughy, Lawlor , Bertie were big members of FF, but only because people voted for them and wanted them to play leading roles in the country. Because we associate FF with these members, does not mean the whole party is representative of its ideals. For that, its the electorates fault for sacrificing principles for populist figureheads who rode us all. .

I dont want the same FF in power in the next elections . . Certainly not . . But if I was told I would have a party with the mandate mentioned (that they are supposed to follow) and the greater good at its core, I would vote for them. If it happened to be FF, then so be it . .

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

Agree with some of that . .

But are you saying if you had 3 candidates on front of you and the best candidate (who you felt was honest and looking out most for the interests of this country ), you would basically not vote for them if they were aligned with FF ?

The bits in bold create great dissonance for me. They are not compatible in my eyes. If you are the former you would leave the latter or not join in the first place.

Haughy, Lawlor , Bertie were big members of FF, but only because people voted for them and wanted them to play leading roles in the country. Because we associate FF with these members, does not mean the whole party is representative of its ideals. For that, its the electorates fault for sacrificing principles for populist figureheads who rode us all. .

And pmce theor behaviour was known how did the party deal with them? That reflects badly on the party and shows you what they stand for

I dont want the same FF in power in the next elections . . Certainly not . . But if I was told I would have a party with the mandate mentioned (that they are supposed to follow) and the greater good at its core, I would vote for them. If it happened to be FF, then so be it . .

Ive said it before on here, i may vote for FF in the future but its umrealistic to think theyll have changed that much by next election. Especially given the views of party members on here that relentlessly defend them no matter what. They remain a rotten party with a rotten base

Drumpot

Laminations wrote: »

The bits in bold create great dissonance for me. They are not compatible in my eyes. If you are the former you would leave the latter or not join in the first place.




And pmce theor behaviour was known how did the party deal with them? That reflects badly on the party and shows you what they stand for



Ive said it before on here, i may vote for FF in the future but its umrealistic to think theyll have changed that much by next election. Especially given the views of party members on here that relentlessly defend them no matter what. They remain a rotten party with a rotten base

Fair enough . . I want a better politician, not just a differant party. My point was just that another party does not guarantee things will improve. I want us all to make politicians be of the uptmost integrity, but we have to demand that from them . . Im concerned people will vote Anybody but FF and little will change . .

Laminations

Drumpot wrote: »

Fair enough . . I want a better politician, not just a differant party. My point was just that another party does not guarantee things will improve. I want us all to make politicians be of the uptmost integrity, but we have to demand that from them . . Im concerned people will vote Anybody but FF and little will change . .

I agree with you. I was never arguing that i want a different party and a worse politician, i want both a different party and a better politician, and i think a different party would coincide with better politicians. Anyone who is good in FF still lacks morals because if they had any they'd have resigned and unfortunately morals are something i look for in my better politicians. Dont worry, i'm still going to cast a considered vote. I'm not going into the ballot box, covering the FF names and ticking anywhere else (even though FFers would like people to believe that about those who are disgusted by their performance)

Sleepy

Drumpot wrote: »

But are you saying if you had 3 candidates on front of you and the best candidate (who you felt was honest and looking out most for the interests of this country), you would basically not vote for them if they were aligned with FF ?

Thats my point . . Yes, its a strike against their name in your eyes, but it doesn't mean they aren't the most capable candidate.

And the ideologies of the party are vital. You mentioned Sinn Fein, who most of us wouldnt vote for if they had superman himself! The actions of the existing members of FF is more representative of what we, the electorate demanded, then the ideology that the party is supposed to represent.

Everything I am saying is about getting people to think properly about why they vote for somebody. What principles do you believe in? What sort of community do you want ?

Haughy, Lawlor , Bertie were big members of FF, but only because people voted for them and wanted them to play leading roles in the country. Because we associate FF with these members, does not mean the whole party is representative of its ideals. For that, its the electorates fault for sacrificing principles for populist figureheads who rode us all. .

I dont want the same FF in power in the next elections . . Certainly not . . But if I was told I would have a party with the mandate mentioned (that they are supposed to follow) and the greater good at its core, I would vote for them. If it happened to be FF, then so be it . .

The problem with this thinking is that in Ireland, our politicians blindly adhere to the whip system so no matter how capable the local candidate may be, they're tied to the party.

Drumpot

Sleepy wrote: »

The problem with this thinking is that in Ireland, our politicians blindly adhere to the whip system so no matter how capable the local candidate may be, they're tied to the party.

I agree . .

Im not saying that do what I say and everthing will be rosey, but we need complete change in how we vote and how the system works (or is used). . In my "perfect" world, politicians would be compelled to make the right decisions for the greater good (even if that meant not agreeing with their own party's direction).

Of course this is wishful thinking, but we can start the process to getting this by demanding more ethical agenda's from the guys who knock at our door asking for our vote . . Not just that we need to vote for the right things for the country, not just ourselves . .

I know I am dreaming to a large degree, but if we could just start growing up as a society we really could have proper change for the greater, long term stability of this country . . I really believe we have it in our own hands to work back to prosperity, but that we need to change the way we vote (not just the party). .

trapsagenius

Sleepy wrote: »

The problem with this thinking is that in Ireland, our politicians blindly adhere to the whip system so no matter how capable the local candidate may be, they're tied to the party.

Drumpot wrote: »

I agree . .

Im not saying that do what I say and everthing will be rosey, but we need complete change in how we vote and how the system works (or is used). . In my "perfect" world, politicians would be compelled to make the right decisions for the greater good (even if that meant not agreeing with their own party's direction).

Of course this is wishful thinking, but we can start the process to getting this by demanding more ethical agenda's from the guys who knock at our door asking for our vote . . Not just that we need to vote for the right things for the country, not just ourselves . .

I know I am dreaming to a large degree, but if we could just start growing up as a society we really could have proper change for the greater, long term stability of this country . . I really believe we have it in our own hands to work back to prosperity, but that we need to change the way we vote (not just the party). .

I'm sorry, but this is a load of nonsense.If it wasn't for the party whip no administration would ever accomplish anything. Any difficult decision that had to be taken would be shirked by gombeen men politicians looking to ensure they get re-elected by taking a populist line on every issue.It's what often happens with minority administrations dependent on independent support.Let's stay in reality here.

Anyway OP, threads on Kenny have been done before.E.g http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055827124
I think the general consensus is that he's useless.I think "dangerous" is a bit much though.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

Any difficult decision that had to be taken would be shirked by gombeen men politicians looking to ensure they get re-elected by taking a populist line on every issue.

I love the way the word "populist" is suddenly a slur, when in actual fact it could also be viewed as simply representing the people.

And you're ignoring the converse completely.....when someone votes against something that's against their ethics or the wishes of the area they are supposed to represent.

Your view is dependent on having a bad politician; our view is dependent on having a good one, who knows when to make the call.

I reckon everyone should have at least 3 or 4 votes a year where they can go against the party whip, and that might make them use those chances wisely (and actually do something, rather than just being a member who washes his hands of issues saying "there's nothing I could do"......similar to a certain disgraced former minister who ran around Limerick claiming to support Shannon and then voted against it.....

trapsagenius wrote: »

I think the general consensus is that he's useless.I think "dangerous" is a bit much though.

Enda Kenny might be poor, but he's worth a million of O'Dea, and remember that FF voted confidence in O'Dea

And given most of the threads I've seen, where it's FF members/supporters trying to deflect from their incompetence that are the main ones commenting,
I doubt that is a genuine consensus.

Poor at times ? Definitely. Useless ? Far from it.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I love the way the word "populist" is suddenly a slur, when in actual fact it could also be viewed as simply representing the people.

And you're ignoring the converse completely.....when someone votes against something that's against their ethics or the wishes of the area they are supposed to represent.

Your view is dependent on having a bad politician; our view is dependent on having a good one, who knows when to make the call.

I reckon everyone should have at least 3 or 4 votes a year where they can go against the party whip, and that might make them use those chances wisely (and actually do something, rather than just being a member who washes his hands of issues saying "there's nothing I could do"......similar to a certain disgraced former minister who ran around Limerick claiming to support Shannon and then voted against it.....

Well in an ideal world this would be all well and good but I can't ever see it functioning in reality.With regards the bit I put in bold-I believe that a TD should put the national interest ahead of the interest of his constituents, when the 2 conflict.If there was no party whip I believ parochialism would win out every time.The "3 or 4 votes a year" you mention isn't a bad idea, but it would be vehemently opposed by the top brass and policy-makers in every party.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Enda Kenny might be poor, but he's worth a million of O'Dea, and remember that FF voted confidence in O'Dea

And given most of the threads I've seen, where it's FF members/supporters trying to deflect from their incompetence that are the main ones commenting,
I doubt that is a genuine consensus.

Poor at times ? Definitely. Useless ? Far from it.

Well I agree that the whole O'Dea affair was a disgrace, so saying that Kenny is worth a million of him isn't really saying much.And I do think he is useless.Let me ask you this question-Kenny has been a TD since 1975 and is the Father of the House-if he doesn't become Taoiseach after the next election, what will his legacy be? IMO,he won't have one.A poor reflection on 35 years in politics, even if much of it was spent in opposition.

jmayo

trapsagenius wrote: »

Well in an ideal world this would be all well and good but I can't ever see it functioning in reality.With regards the bit I put in bold-I believe that a TD should put the national interest ahead of the interest of his constituents, when the 2 conflict.If there was no party whip I believ parochialism would win out every time.The "3 or 4 votes a year" you mention isn't a bad idea, but it would be vehemently opposed by the top brass and policy-makers in every party.

You do have a point about the whip system.
Then again the US system works somewhat although bills usually have a load of sweetners added for particular senators support that has absolutely nothing much to do with the core bill.

trapsagenius wrote: »

Well I agree that the whole O'Dea affair was a disgrace, so saying that Kenny is worth a million of him isn't really saying much.And I do think he is useless.Let me ask you this question-Kenny has been a TD since 1975 and is the Father of the House-if he doesn't become Taoiseach after the next election, what will his legacy be? IMO,he won't have one.A poor reflection on 35 years in politics, even if much of it was spent in opposition.

Do I remember correctly or was it you who argued with me that willie had not been found guilty of anything and thus should not resign?
I do remember that argument from one ff suporter on here.
Apologies if it was not you.

Speaking of legacies.
What do you think bertie's is and what will biffo's be ?
A sunken country, a glorious boom blown, politics dragged through the gutter maybe ?

trapsagenius

jmayo wrote: »

Do I remember correctly or was it you who argued with me that willie had not been found guilty of anything and thus should not resign?
I do remember that argument from one ff suporter on here.
Apologies if it was not you.

Speaking of legacies.
What do you think bertie's is and what will biffo's be ?
A sunken country, a glorious boom blown, politics dragged through the gutter maybe ?

Certainly wasn't me about Willie O'Dea.I was as appalled with that whole saga as everyone else.

Bertie's legacy-well, I've outlined my position on him several times ( I just know I'm going to be ripped to shreds again when I say this)-I liked the man and I still do.Whatever about people saying he mismanaged the boom, his contribution to peace in NI will never be forgotten.That's as good a legacy as any.Now when the Tribunal publishes its report I may have to revise my decision downwards, but until then I'm not changing.

Cowen's-pretty much all bad.

Drumpot

trapsagenius wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this is a load of nonsense.If it wasn't for the party whip no administration would ever accomplish anything. Any difficult decision that had to be taken would be shirked by gombeen men politicians looking to ensure they get re-elected by taking a populist line on every issue.It's what often happens with minority administrations dependent on independent support.Let's stay in reality here.

Ok. . Lets look at it from another view .. Do you think its right that many TDs vote for certain things simply because they are a part of a party ? More importantly, do you think it guarantees that the correct decision is usually made for Ireland Inc ? If not, then its worth exploring alternatives and this discussion is not simply nonsense . .

Everything in our political system is outdated and many people seem to have the view that if somethings the lessor of another evil or simply keeps things moving (rightly or wrongly), its just fine the way it is. Thats just not good enough . .

danman

Would individual TD's have voted for the PS cuts in the last budget?

Will individual TD's vote for the eventual social welfare cuts that are coming down the line? This also applies to FG/Lab TD's when they get into Government.

Of course they wouldn't.
But you can't deny that these decisions were and will be good for the country.
If individual TD's had a choice, there is not a hope in hell that they would leave themselves open to the accusation that they, and only they, were advocating cuts in social welfare.

Drumpot

danman wrote: »

Would individual TD's have voted for the PS cuts in the last budget?

Will individual TD's vote for the eventual social welfare cuts that are coming down the line? This also applies to FG/Lab TD's when they get into Government.

Of course they wouldn't.
But you can't deny that these decisions were and will be good for the country.
If individual TD's had a choice, there is not a hope in hell that they would leave themselves open to the accusation that they, and only they, were advocating cuts in social welfare.

You assume this based on the current kind of TD we have and I agree with you regarding the decisions these individuals would currently make . .

But all along I have been saying that we need to vote for TDs who will vote for the greater good (even opposition party members agreeing with their counterparts). . It only sounds ridiculous because most people assume this is as good as it gets (in terms of getting TDs with complete integrity and who will make decisions for the greater good of the country even if it costs them). .

The only way to do this is by punishing the populist TD (not electing them in again) . . Make integrity and moral leadership vital to who you elect and eventually we would have the right TDs, doing the right things for the country . .

Ive said it before. I think we are all far to defeatest when it comes to these kind of debates . .People assume, this is just the way the world works so it cant get much better . . I remember when I was in college people used to think that trying to get peace in Northern Ireland was a lost cause . . If that can be achieved, its surely not to much to ask the Irish Electorate to grow up and vote for the right people for the right reasons . .

trapsagenius

Drumpot wrote: »

You assume this based on the current kind of TD we have and I agree with you regarding the decisions these individuals would currently make . .

But all along I have been saying that we need to vote for TDs who will vote for the greater good (even opposition party members agreeing with their counterparts). .

Your naivety is appalling.People in Ireland often do not vote for "the greater good"they vote for personal good.And if it wasn't for the whip system, TDs would do the same.

Drumpot wrote: »

It only sounds ridiculous because most people assume this is as good as it gets (in terms of getting TDs with complete integrity and who will make decisions for the greater good of the country even if it costs them). .

No, it sounds ridiculous because your proposal would never actually work in the real world.Politicians want to get re-elected-it's a very good job after all.Who would people be more likely to reelect-a TD who cuts wages and welfare even if it was for the greater good, or a gombeen TD who fights tooth and nail against all the said changes?Let's keep a bit of realism in this debate.

Drumpot wrote: »

The only way to do this is by punishing the populist TD (not electing them in again) . . Make integrity and moral leadership vital to who you elect and eventually we would have the right TDs, doing the right things for the country . .

More rubbish.The reason it's caused "populism" is because that's what it is-popular.People will not vote for a TD out of concern for the "greater good"-they will vote for one who is of more benefit to them.9 times out of 10 this will be the populist TD.Yes, it's a pain, but that's just the way it is.Sorry.

As I said earlier,if it wasn't for the whip system, nothing would be accomplished in politics in Ireland.It would be a victory for Parish Pump politics every time.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

People will not vote for a TD out of concern for the "greater good"-they will vote for one who is of more benefit to them.9 times out of 10 this will be the populist TD.Yes, it's a pain, but that's just the way it is.Sorry.

That is remarkably condescending to people who do vote with the bigger picture in mind.

They say that every cloud has a silver lining, though, so if anything good comes out of this recession, I would hope that it will shock a lot of people into realising that the current system is neither; no personal gain (at least unless you're well-connected) and definitely no "greater good" when it comes to the millstones of Anglo and NAMA that the "populist" Ahern and McCreevy and Cowen foisted on us.

trapsagenius wrote: »

As I said earlier,if it wasn't for the whip system, nothing would be accomplished in politics in Ireland.It would be a victory for Parish Pump politics every time.

OF COURSE people will want to gain, but they should be able to trust their supposed representatives to look after the country.....and if putting money away for a rainy day and ensuring that key services are properly planned and regulated isn't "looking after the country", then there's no point in having a Dáil.

That mindset will ensure that nothing gets changed, while any TD who has ethics gets sidelined - not by the public, but by "the [BORG] party" - and maintain the mediocre, parish pump and soundbite, unaccountable TD.

trapsagenius

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That is remarkably condescending to people who do vote with the bigger picture in mind.

They say that every cloud has a silver lining, though, so if anything good comes out of this recession, I would hope that it will shock a lot of people into realising that the current system is neither; no personal gain (at least unless you're well-connected) and definitely no "greater good" when it comes to the millstones of Anglo and NAMA that the "populist" Ahern and McCreevy and Cowen foisted on us.

Come on, do you really think people on social welfare or in the public sector would vote for a TD who is in favour of cutting their incomes?Turkeys don't vote for Christmas.And the PS workers and people would, IMO, be able to convince themselves it was for the greater good not to have their wages cut-most of the unions in Ireland today have unbelievable powers of self-delusion and people always think the cutbacks should be in area other than their own. Most TDs want to get re-elected, ergo I assume many of them would take a populist line without the party whip even if it ruined the country.

I don't know have you done it personally, but in a lot of threads on this forum, people are (often correctly) quick the criticise the parochialism in Irish politics.Without a whip system, as I stated previously, it would be a victory for parish pump politics 7 days a week (or however many days TDs actually go to work).

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That mindset will ensure that nothing gets changed, while any TD who has ethics gets sidelined - not by the public, but by "the [BORG] party" - and maintain the mediocre, parish pump and soundbite, unaccountable TD.

But can you not see what I'm saying?Without a whip system I think there would be more of the "parish pump" politics.

What you and Drumpot are suggesting is fantastic in theory and would work in an ideal world where all politicians are solely out for the "greater good" but in the real world I cannot see such proposals functioning.Not everything on paper works well in practice-communism is a perfect example of this(not that I am trying to say either of you are communists, obviously).

danman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

That is remarkably condescending to people who do vote with the bigger picture in mind.

it may be condescending, but it's the truth Liam.
Look at the past 4 General Elections.

A system where TD's are only concern themselves with the greater good, will never happen.

Out TD's are concerned with one thing only, getting elected.

They will always try to everything to every man to get re-elected.
Call it parish pump, or whatever you like, it will remain that way.

Why should a voter in rural Ireland, vote for a candidate that says he will only concern himself with the politics of the nation?
The next candidate on the list says he will campaign for the local community center, youth club, (insert local cause here)

which will get the majority of number 1's?

Idealism is fine, but it will always be just that, idealism.

The voters in the next GE are no more concerned with the greater good than they have been for the past 25 years. They will register a protest vote against the government, because someone has to pay.

But the decision for who will get their number 1, will still be decided on local concerns.

Liam Byrne

It probably explains why I don't fit in.....

But can you both see why it means that the status-quo suits the useless politicians, and why it also means that we can never even hope for anywhere near the ideal, because anyone with ethics and a conscience will get sidelined by "the party" ?

If we don't aim for ideals, then we'll never even reach halfway

trapsagenius

danman wrote: »

They will always try to everything to every man to get re-elected.
Call it parish pump, or whatever you like, it will remain that way.

Why should a voter in rural Ireland, vote for a candidate that says he will only concern himself with the politics of the nation?
The next candidate on the list says he will campaign for the local community center, youth club, (insert local cause here)

which will get the majority of number 1's?

That hits the nail on the head, in fairness.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

It probably explains why I don't fit in.....

But can you both see why it means that the status-quo suits the useless politicians, and why it also means that we can never even hope for anywhere near the ideal, because anyone with ethics and a conscience will get sidelined by "the party" ?

If we don't aim for ideals, then we'll never even reach halfway

I can certainly see where you're coming from-as I said, your proposals are brilliant on paper.It's just such a system that would leave itself completely open to abuse by unscrupulous politicians solely concerned with getting re-elected.Idealism is always something to strive for, but at the moment unfortunately, getting rid of the whip system would just compound the parochialism so endemic in Irish politics.When we have 166 honest and responsible TDs I will give such a proposal thought, but until then, I cannot see it working.

Liam Byrne

trapsagenius wrote: »

When we have 166 honest and responsible TDs I will give such a proposal thought, but until then, I cannot see it working.

Chicken and egg scenario, then, because as long as there are politicians like Ahern, O'Dea, Cooper-Flynn, O'Donoghue, etc in place, and "leaders" who don't weed them out, then it'll be tough for even 1 honest and responsible TD to get in there to change things, let alone 166........

Sully

Since I am having this very same conversation in the Red C results thread, ill post my views here.

Ill never get why we must insist on a leader rather then a party. This includes the attacks against FF/Greens/Labour etc. We seem to look at the leader a lot of the time and use that as a basis of whether a party is credible or not.

Its sad, because FG have an awful lot of credible policies and TDs/Senators/MEPs. They are an excellent party in respect but we cant seem to see past Enda, whome may not be the best but is much further from the worst. I believe he is a more credible leader then Cowen who has shown to be offering nothing.

It was FG who were calling for Anglo to be shut down but FF were insisting it wont be. Then Europe says it should be and FF then call for it! Yet, nobody even looks at FG for it and dismisses the party as "Oh, Enda? Never". Yet Varadkar, Hayes, Creighton, Bruton and Waterford's Paudie Coffey, and Maurice Cummins are bringing together a string of political plans - education, economy, health and political reform being a selection. They have, IIRC, something on agriculture taking shape now from what I gather. But - all dismissed because of Enda.

So, what, do FG need to hire a good looking entertainer, who can talk with absolute ease and be impressive to get people to consider the real structure and political power behind the very man who put it together in the first place? Ludicrous.

Look at Labour - water politics. Have very little potential and offer very little bar throwing punches at the government and making speeches that will win over public service workers and the general public - hitting the right notes and winning them over with stuff they want to hear. There a slow party in terms of policies and plans. They seem to offer very little in terms of front bench.

Yet, Gilmore is the face of the party and a damn good speaker winning over the hearts and minds of the voters with "Whatever you want, Labour will give" approach. Hey presto, the party jumps in support and looks to get an overall majority by robbing the voters blind just like FF did. Just not corrupt or in bed with bankers - just in bed with public sector unions and making speeches that people want to hear even if its unrealistic.

SF need an overhaul. Doesn't matter what they come out with, they will never be considered by the large majority to be an alternative.

Personally, I would prefer the party that can offer real change. Real reform. Real and fair politics. Even if it meant being "stuck" with a leader who isn't the best at public engagements and winning over the hearts and minds with political bull****.

Seems like this country wants change - but not the right type of change. Same circle we will remain in, just a different shower.