Yet another deposit issue

caesius99

Dear all,

I rented a 2 bed room house for 14 months from property managers which I recently vacated. The deposit was 900 euros. I paid all the rent on time and was very responsible.

When I first moved in the house, there were 2 bags of rubbish in the hall which I was asked to throw away. And the shed which I found later was full of garbage left by the previous tenants. 14 months later I have moved out and handed over the keys to the agent.
Before vacating, I took photos of the house. Here they are.
http://img444.imageshack.us/g/img8476y.jpg/
I cleaned the house reasonably. I did not hoover the whole house. There might have been small bits and pieces of paper here and there. Nothing permanent on the walls and absolutely nothing was broken or missing in the house.
My family's flights were constantly getting canceled due to the volcano and we were stressed as we had packed all the stuff.

Today the property agent calls me and in a very derisive way told me that she found that the house was filthy and was very disappointed. 'The cooker is not clean, the window sills have not been cleaned' etc etc. She was very rude in her tone of voice. I was preparing for a telephone interview later in the day and her phone call totally ruined my mental peace for a couple of hours. When I told her about the shed, she said I am not talking about the shed and continued her rudeness. I told her that I did not want to fight with her and that the property was not 'filthy'. She is going to charge my deposit for cleaning.

I agreed that the windows were maybe not crystal clear and maybe the floor was not spot on. I was under the impression that the normal practice in any property letting is that after the tenant has vacated, the agents or the landlords do a rigorous and professional cleaning for the new people to move in. The prtb website only mentions 'normal wear and tear' and does not mention spot on cleanliness. When I was first shown the house, it was vey bad with boxes and magazines left around. The same agent said that she would get cleaners to clean and we will move in a few days.

Does'nt every person living in any house leaves some little dust/boxes here and there on vacating. Are tenants supposed to do a spot on cleaning of the house before vacating? Is it normal practice for property agents to employ professional cleaners who restore the house back in terms of cleanliness. Do you think the house I left(photos above) is unclean enough for her to charge me? I am not an Irish/EU citizen.

Please advise.

tenchi-fan

you should leave the house the way you got it.
If you moved into a house that was clean and hoovered with two bags of rubbish, you should have left it clean and hoovered. bags of rubbish optional.

athtrasna

Usually people take pictures to prove the house was left clean? Your pics don't quite do that.

Whatever about the house you saw, if you got a clean house you should have left a clean house. If you had an issue with the rubbish on Day 1 you should have had the agent remove it. Also most leases specify that the house be left clean on departure?

Did the agent say what the deduction would be? The place doesn't look like it will take a whole lot of time but it definitely needs cleaning.

caesius99

Thanks for your replies.

I took photos of only the inventory in the house. The bags and white paper were removed from the house.
I had informed them repeatedly about the rubbish in the shed but they just ignored it. I never used the shed in the beginning. So I left it.

When I moved in, the house was not completely clean. The oven was dirty inside. I kind of took it easy and cleaned it.
She did not mention the charges.

the_syco

caesius99 wrote: »

She did not mention the charges.

Did she mention receipts for the cleaning? She has to provide you with this, to show prove any amount taken from your deposit is for a reason.

caesius99

the_syco wrote: »

Did she mention receipts for the cleaning? She has to provide you with this, to show prove any amount taken from your deposit is for a reason.

No, she has not got it cleaned yet. I have emailed her to send me a written statement/list about what is wrong in the house and how much she is going to charge.

Graces7

This ploy seems to be the most common tactic agents and landlords use. Even the wording is familiar.

A previous landlord assured us we could leave anything including rubbish as he was refurbishing and getting a skip. Then he told the next tenant what a mess we had left the place in; all we left was in the shed anyways as he had asked us to do.

Moving house is stressful enough without this kind of hassle.

Can you call Threshold and see what they say? This is the housing association who will act as advocate in any landlord/agent/tenant matter.

They deal with this kind of thing daily....

http://www.threshold.ie/

Often a communication from someone official will stop the agent in their tracks.

We left our last house because water was pouring in through the floor and the mould was appalling.

While we scrubbed surfaces and cupboards etc, there was nothing we could do about the floors, and no reasonable person would have expected us to do that.

Yet there came a message via the agent that the landlord was very upset at the state we had left the place in etc etc.

They should not have left the rubbish for you to remove and if the shed was mentioned in the ads then that too should have been clear of rubbish.

No way should they be refusing to return that amount of money like that; they are trying it on.

Anyways it is the landlord who usually holds the deposit.

Please call Threshold?

Cathmandooo

If you don't have photos of the state of the house the day you moved in then it's irrelevent as you have no proof.

Personally I'd scrub any property clean before vacating.

They can't just take your full deposit, as previously said they'll need receipts of any cleaning work done.

caesius99

Thanks Graces7 and others for your replies.
I guess the problem I am having is that of a lack of common ground about what is clean and what is not.

When I found the house: the oven was dirty, shed was filthy, window sills were clean. floor was hoovered.
When I left the house: the oven was clean, shed was the same, window sills were dusty, and floor was dusty(but not filthy)

I naively assumed they would take it easy.

Anyway, I have just informed her that if she decides to charge me for anything. She has to tell me in advance before spending my deposit money. I told her that she needs to give me in writing a list of problems in the house. I will clean all those and take before/after photos.

She has to give me a chance for saving my money and not just present me a receipt at the end.
Is she legally obliged to do this?
she is the property agent not the landlord btw.

dudara

My understanding is that they can only withhold the deposit for anything that goes beyond normal wear and tear. An unbrushed floor is normal.

Contact Threshold or the PRTB to find out more.

gurramok

No matter what the place was like when you moved in, cleaning the place professionally on leaving is not your responsibilty. You have proof of what the place was like when you moved out.

When I left the house: the oven was clean, shed was the same, window sills were dusty, and floor was dusty(but not filthy)

This(and the photos) to me is a place left clean.

If they will not give your deposit back, bring the case to the PRTB. Have those photos ready timestamped for your case. Their case will be thrown out as they as trying to take advantage of you with your money. Do not give in or pay for anything beyond normal wear and tear assuming you did not break or damage the landlords property.

athtrasna

gurramok wrote: »

No matter what the place was like when you moved in, cleaning the place professionally on leaving is not your responsibilty. You have proof of what the place was like when you moved out.


This(and the photos) to me is a place left clean.

It's not your responsibility to have the place professionally cleaned BUT clean to the eye. That would include dusting, picking up papers, not leaving boxes.

I'm no neat freak but those pictures to me are not clean. An hour with a hoover, a duster and a bin bag would have made a big difference. The maximum deduction I would accept is €50, which is about 1-2 hours for a cleaner.

gurramok

athtrasna wrote: »

It's not your responsibility to have the place professionally cleaned BUT clean to the eye. That would include dusting, picking up papers, not leaving boxes.

I'm no neat freak but those pictures to me are not clean. An hour with a hoover, a duster and a bin bag would have made a big difference. The maximum deduction I would accept is €50, which is about 1-2 hours for a cleaner.

Yes, give it a normal clean over as in presentable. Which pics are not clean? I do not see any dirt/stains in those photos and dust wouldn't really show unless we were in the house ourselves

The house ain't 'filthy' as that agent reported to the OP. There are zero grounds for withholding the deposit in this case. It looks to me the agent/LL is trying to charge the OP for a professional clean up to the cost of the deposit(as usually is the cases like these, see previous threads).

Judging by the pics, the agent/LL to my eye is trying to pull a fast one.

athtrasna

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, give it a normal clean over as in presentable. Which pics are not clean? I do not see any dirt/stains in those photos and dust wouldn't really show unless we were in the house ourselves

To my eye the worktops are dirty, the floors need to be swept and hoovered and bags, boxes, papers around the place need to be tidied away. As your say, dust etc won't show in a picture.

OP - people normally take pictures to show the condition of the house when you leave ie that it's clean and tidy. While the purpose of your pictures is to show contents...if you're trying to show that the place is clean and tidy then little things like having presses closed, ironing board down etc all make the place look much tidier.

caesius99

Thanks gurramok, athtrasna

yes, I agree with you that the house is maybe not clean for someone else to move in immediately.
I too would expect a pristine dust/clutter free house when I move into a new house.

But I really hope you agree that the house is not 'filthy' and you
would not be 'disappointed with the way I have left the house'.

(I was originally supposed to vacate on saturday, clean on sunday and have the keys turned in on monday, but due to the volcano, the flights of my family were cancelled till thursday(22/4)
so we had to come back and unpack etc.. I took half a day off on thursday and emptied/cleaned whatever I could to a respectable standard).

I agree, I was lax in the way I left the house.
But whenever I was looking for a house, all the houses the property
agents showed me were like this (signs of people having lived there) and they always said, if you decide to move in, we will get it cleaned and you can take the keys.

Aren't property agents supposed to have contracts with cleaning staff?

I have mailed her that if she wants to spend my money on getting things hoovered ,she should inform me first
and I will hoover it.

gurramok

athtrasna wrote: »

To my eye the worktops are dirty, the floors need to be swept and hoovered and bags, boxes, papers around the place need to be tidied away. As your say, dust etc won't show in a picture.

To clean the above is an act of good faith. If not cleaned, its not legal to withhold deposit based under that condition, it ain't wear and tear. Hold your ground OP. http://www.prtb.ie/DownloadDocs/Deposit%20Refund.pdf

Only a stupid and lazy landlord will not clean a place before advertising the place for rent and showing viewings around for the next tenants.