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Papers please Arizona

  • 27-04-2010 10:58AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭


    Arizona has passed a law that makes it a misdemeanor to not prove lawful U.S. residence when asked to provide such documentation. It gives the police the right to stop anyone who they suspect is an illegal immigrant and ask them for proof they are legal otherwise they are arrested.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/27/arizona-immigration-law

    A truck driver was recently detained because he couldn't prove he was American. (He was).
    http://iowaindependent.com/32851/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

    Sounds like a charter for abuse. How can one suspect someone is illegal? The only thing I can think of is their skin colour.

    What about elections, will all the brown people have to bring their birth certs now or face arrest?

    Sounds crazy.

    Also how do the freedom loving right wingers deal with police stopping people and asking for their papers!!


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    20Cent wrote: »
    Arizona has passed a law that makes it a misdemeanor to not prove lawful U.S. residence when asked to provide such documentation. It gives the police the right to stop anyone who they suspect is an illegal immigrant and ask them for proof they are legal otherwise they are arrested.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/27/arizona-immigration-law

    A truck driver was recently detained because he couldn't prove he was American. (He was).
    http://iowaindependent.com/32851/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

    Sounds like a charter for abuse. How can one suspect someone is illegal? The only thing I can think of is their skin colour.

    What about elections, will all the brown people have to bring their birth certs now or face arrest?

    Sounds crazy.

    Also how do the freedom loving right wingers deal with police stopping people and asking for their papers!!

    Well, this is already the law in Ireland.

    The police have the right to stop any "foreigner," and demand to see their Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB) card. Foreigners are required to carry these at all times. They are basically identity cards (but have a line on the back saying they are not). Quite apart are the procedures for how they decide who is a foreigner, besides the colour of their skin, of course.

    Additionally, all foreigners are required to submit to finger printing when they renew their right to stay in this country.

    Freedom loving restrictions aren't the exclusive preserve of the American right, it would seem.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    they're only worth talking about when they come out of america though, fascist bastards


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Well this is the US politics section.

    Two wrongs still don't make a right.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    I read the bill. A lot of legaleeze, but all-in-all doesn’t seem too bad to me.

    "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state . . . where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Sorry, but it actually sound good to me.

    And upon signing the law, the Arizona governor issued an executive order for a training program on how to implement it without racial profiling. So, it appears that Arizona's only offense, devoid of all the rhetoric, is to attempt to enforce the nation's immigration laws - because the federal government refuses to do their job. And the federal government has forced the border states to deal with much of the problem themselves. So the Arizona law makes it a state crime for aliens not to have immigration documents on their person. Bad? I think not, it's been a federal crime for more than half a century - U.S.C. 1304(e).

    Whenever I had gotten pulled over by a police officer while driving, I always had to provide identification. How draconian!

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2R/bills/SB1070S.pdf


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Amerika wrote: »
    I read the bill. A lot of legaleeze, but all-in-all doesn’t seem too bad to me.

    "For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or agency of this state . . . where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person." Sorry, but it actually sound good to me.

    And upon signing the law, the Arizona governor issued an executive order for a training program on how to implement it without racial profiling. So, it appears that Arizona's only offense, devoid of all the rhetoric, is to attempt to enforce the nation's immigration laws - because the federal government refuses to do their job. And the federal government has forced the border states to deal with much of the problem themselves. So the Arizona law makes it a state crime for aliens not to have immigration documents on their person. Bad? I think not, it's been a federal crime for more than half a century - U.S.C. 1304(e).

    Whenever I had gotten pulled over by a police officer while driving, I always had to provide identification. How draconian!

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2R/bills/SB1070S.pdf

    What do you think would cause a "reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States"?


    When you were stopped was a drivers license enough?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    20Cent wrote: »
    What do you think would cause a "reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States"?


    When you were stopped was a drivers license enough?
    Standing in a group on a particular corner, which is a well know area for illegal immigrants looking for work, is a good start.

    Just the other week I was stopped. Was doing 55 in a 35 mph zone. Had to provide my Drivers License, Car Registration and Liability Insurance Card - and I'm a citizen. Luckily I got off with a just warning.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Amerika wrote: »
    Standing in a group on a particular corner, which is a well know area for illegal immigrants looking for work, is a good start.

    Just the other week I was stopped. Was doing 55 in a 35 mph zone. Had to provide my Drivers License, Car Registration and Liability Insurance Card - and I'm a citizen. Luckily I got off with a just warning.

    Lucky you.
    Can't you get all those things without being a citizen?
    Would you be angry if they wanted your birthcert?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Dont go 20 miles over the limit then :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    20Cent wrote: »
    Lucky you.
    Can't you get all those things without being a citizen?
    Yes, but I think in most states you would need to be here legally.
    Would you be angry if they wanted your birthcert?
    Only if I wanted to become president of the United States (relax, just having a little fun there)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    Overheal wrote: »
    Dont go 20 miles over the limit then :pac:

    True, but I think it also helped that I just bought a $5,000 security system for work from one the of the local police officers who has a side business.

    But back on topic. I think there will be lawsuits filed over the Arizona bill which might have to go to the US Supreme Court pretty fast for a ruling, as I’m hearing several other states are considering implementing similar laws.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    20Cent wrote: »
    A truck driver was recently detained because he couldn't prove he was American. (He was).
    http://iowaindependent.com/32851/the-new-birthers-arizona-truck-driver-arrested-forced-to-show-birth-certificate

    Here's the bit that it took me a while to understand from all the shil commentary: The AZ law actually isn't any different to currently existing federal law on the subject. Your truck driver mentioned in that article was questioned by federal agents under federal law (ICE is not an Arizona organisation), and it has absolutely nothing to do with the AZ law which doesn't actually take effect for another few months.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Here's the bit that it took me a while to understand from all the shil commentary: The AZ law actually isn't any different to currently existing federal law on the subject. Your truck driver mentioned in that article was questioned by federal agents under federal law (ICE is not an Arizona organisation), and it has absolutely nothing to do with the AZ law which doesn't actually take effect for another few months.

    NTM

    That makes it ok then?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    20Cent wrote: »
    That makes it ok then?

    Do you think the Police Force should be forbidden from inquiring after illegal immigrants?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Do you think the Police Force should be forbidden from inquiring after illegal immigrants?

    No but they shouldn't be able to stop anyone and demand to see their papers.
    Wouldn't like to be a dark skinned person in Arizona at the mo.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    20Cent wrote: »
    No but they shouldn't be able to stop anyone and demand to see their papers.
    Wouldn't like to be a dark skinned person in Arizona at the mo.

    Did you never watch that tv series on anti-immigrant officers in the UK? I'd wager this has been going on in both countries for a long time.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    No but they shouldn't be able to stop anyone and demand to see their papers.
    Wouldn't like to be a dark skinned person in Arizona at the mo.

    Here's the question so: If immigration law is to be enforced, how are they supposed to do it if they're not allowed to find out if the person is a legal immigrant or not?

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,940 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Here's the question so: If immigration law is to be enforced, how are they supposed to do it if they're not allowed to find out if the person is a legal immigrant or not?

    NTM

    They are allowed find out. Its the power given to a cop to stop and arrest someone they suspect might be illegal is the step too far.

    This means everyone, even legal citizens will have to carry proof that they are legal around. Your a freedom loving guy, how does that work with you? Police stopping people just because of the way they look?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    20Cent wrote: »
    They are allowed find out. Its the power given to a cop to stop and arrest someone they suspect might be illegal is the step too far.

    They generally can't. ICE agents have the authority to do so because that's their sole job. The AZ law only allows the police to make such investigations if they had good cause to be talking to the person in the first place. Fishing expeditions are quite illegal.
    This means everyone, even legal citizens will have to carry proof that they are legal around.

    I agree that having to carry documentation around is a little extreme. However, there should be a way to determine eligibility without carrying ID through police making inquiries. For example, though I've a foreign accent, I have no worries that it would take too long for them to find me in the system as a US citizen, though I have a headstart as I just need to tell them to call the duty desk at OTAG in Carson City.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    It seems like something they can lookup as part of routine stops. The same way they can run my drivers license through the DMV right in their center console during a traffic stop.

    Now, back in the 50s, sure, it wouldve been very Godwin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,083 ✭✭✭Carcharodon


    I don't understand how anyone can really defend this bill, even the majority of law enforcement are against it, the president has spoken out against it. It may not be outwardly racist but does promote profiling and this in turn will lead to very large sections of the population feeling discriminated against.

    The one good thing that might come out of this will be that it highlights the immigration problems and will lead to some major reform to help all the illegals in the country.

    These people go through such a hard time to get here and then they have to deal with this. It is unbelievable as to how ignorant people are to the issues.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I don't understand how anyone can really defend this bill, even the majority of law enforcement are against it, the president has spoken out against it.
    Here are the two issues I have with that statement.
    1) Most Chiefs of Police/Sheriffs except in major metropolitan areas in the US are elected officials. There are a number of topics in which surveys of line officers and the 'California Association of Police Chiefs' (or whatever) are in contradiction of each other. Of course, the politicians and media listen to the Sheriffs/Chiefs, which is as it should be, but they are frequently a few echelons above reality or just following their own political ideas. A flaw in the American system, I fear.
    2) If, as it seems is the case, the AZ law predominantly follows Federal law, the President's stated objections seem far more appearance than substance. Cue comment about politicians.
    The one good thing that might come out of this will be that it highlights the immigration problems

    This is true, and it is entirely possible that some of the AZ legislature voted for it for just that reason. There is precedent. I think, however, it was mainly just done out of frustration that the Feds aren't doing their job and AZ needs to take their own measures.

    NTM


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,768 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    PLANET-OF-THE-APES-STATUE-OF-LIBERTY.jpg
    Can't see the inscription at the base of the statue anymore?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    If you look closely, it’s been buried by the incoming tide of of foreign entities.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,555 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    Amerika wrote: »
    If you look closely, it’s been buried by the incoming tide of of foreign entities.

    rofl


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Here's the question so: If immigration law is to be enforced, how are they supposed to do it if they're not allowed to find out if the person is a legal immigrant or not?

    NTM

    A good question, to which there is no easy answer. However in a state where 30% or so of the 'legal' population are hispanic, a certain amount of sensitivity is going to have to be applied.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,768 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Amerika wrote: »
    If you look closely, it’s been buried by the incoming tide of of foreign entities.
    What you cannot see in the picture are the McCain Arizona condos that now have a beach front view after the collapse of California into the sea (as a result of all the "Drill baby drill" offshore oil rigs pumping out the oil and replacing the space created with less density sea water).

    But how did the Statue get to Arizona? It was sold to McCain to provide a female running mate for 2012 that wouldn't be "Going Rogue" during his 2nd presidential campaign.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    What you cannot see in the picture are the McCain Arizona condos that now have a beach front view after the collapse of California into the sea (as a result of all the "Drill baby drill" offshore oil rigs pumping out the oil and replacing the space created with less density sea water).

    But how did the Statue get to Arizona? It was sold to McCain to provide a female running mate for 2012 that wouldn't be "Going Rogue" during his 2nd presidential campaign.
    you killed the moment :pac:

    back to the motto the French imposed upon us (joking, settle down):

    Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
    With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
    Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
    A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
    Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
    Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
    Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
    The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
    "Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
    ' With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
    The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
    Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
    I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,175 ✭✭✭Amerika


    What you cannot see in the picture are the McCain Arizona condos that now have a beach front view after the collapse of California into the sea (as a result of all the "Drill baby drill" offshore oil rigs pumping out the oil and replacing the space created with less density sea water).

    But how did the Statue get to Arizona? It was sold to McCain to provide a female running mate for 2012 that wouldn't be "Going Rogue" during his 2nd presidential campaign.

    .

    LOL!

    Someone should have told poor old Al Gore. I see he just purchased an ocean front Montecito property in California. And I understand he spent $8,875,000 on the ocean-view villa on 1.5 acres with a swimming pool, spa and fountains. The Italian-style house also has six fireplaces, five bedrooms and nine bathrooms. (One heck of a carbon footprint if you ask me.) Hmmmm, I thought Al was worried about the rising ocean levels. I guess when you’re full of that much sh_it, you need a lot of toilets.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,768 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    I don't understand how anyone can really defend this bill, even the majority of law enforcement are against it, the president has spoken out against it. It may not be outwardly racist but does promote profiling and this in turn will lead to very large sections of the population feeling discriminated against.

    "Throughout the Famine (recessionary) years, nearly a million Irish (Mexicans) arrived in the United States. Famine (Recessionary) immigrants were the first big wave of poor refugees ever to arrive in the U.S. and Americans were simply overwhelmed. Upon arrival in America, the Irish (Mexicans) found the going to be quite tough. With no one to help them, they immediately settled into the lowest rung of society and waged a daily battle for survival."

    Source: http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/america.htm


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 909 ✭✭✭IrishManSaipan


    "Throughout the Famine (recessionary) years, nearly a million Irish (Mexicans) arrived in the United States. Famine (Recessionary) immigrants were the first big wave of poor refugees ever to arrive in the U.S. and Americans were simply overwhelmed. Upon arrival in America, the Irish (Mexicans) found the going to be quite tough. With no one to help them, they immediately settled into the lowest rung of society and waged a daily battle for survival."

    Source: http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/famine/america.htm

    You are not comparing like with like. The Irish were legal immigrants, unlike the millions of illegal Mexicans.


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