Occupation of Anglo-Irish Bank

FTA69

http://eirigi.org/latest/latest250410.html

Personally I was delighted to see activists, accompanied by a Dublin City councillor, occupy the premises of Anglo-Irish Bank. The general problem with this country is that the population is completely apathetic and lethargic in the face of a government that has repeatedly taken the absolute p*ss, as far as I'm aware Lenihan even made a comment to the effect that if the likes of NAMA had been brought in over in France there would have been riots in the streets. Not here of course, here is hoping more people engage in such direct action in future.

SeanW

fair f***s to them!

bonzos

Seanie was probably out playin golf with hie FF mates while it was goin on

p1akuw47h5r3it

Have to say the mock hanging of Sean fitzpatrick is taking it to far in my opinion.

I think he deserves a long Jail term nonetheless.

BlaasForRafa

FTA69 wrote: »

http://eirigi.org/latest/latest250410.html

Personally I was delighted to see activists, accompanied by a Dublin City councillor, occupy the premises of Anglo-Irish Bank. The general problem with this country is that the population is completely apathetic and lethargic in the face of a government that has repeatedly taken the absolute p*ss, as far as I'm aware Lenihan even made a comment to the effect that if the likes of NAMA had been brought in over in France there would have been riots in the streets. Not here of course, here is hoping more people engage in such direct action in future.

I'd support them if they were normal joe soaps rather than a pack of ex-shinners and socialist worker types.

problemchimp

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'd support them if they were normal joe soaps rather than a pack of ex-shinners and socialist worker types.

selective there. let's wait for the blueshirts to sort out things. or maybe Jackie Healy Ray if he's not too busy licking Cowens hole. fair play to the protesters I say!

BlaasForRafa

problemchimp wrote: »

selective there. let's wait for the blueshirts to sort out things. or maybe Jackie Healy Ray if he's not too busy licking Cowens hole. fair play to the protesters I say!

I dislike blueshirts and Jackie Healy Rae and Cowen as well. What exactly is occupying Anglo Irish's headquarters anyway other than getting a bunch of rabble on the six-one news hmm?

Nodin

An occupation I can agree with, for once.

BlaasForRafa

Nodin wrote: »

An occupation I can agree with, for once.

I'm amazed your not blaming it on the Israelis

sceptre

By the looks of things, éirígí chairperson Brian Leeson is one of those individuals who can't bring himself to call the country by its name (the 26 counties", "the Dublin government"). I find it difficult to take such people seriously.

Aside, is Anglo-Irish open on a Saturday? They say they chained themselves inside the HQ but it was a Saturday.

FTA69

I'd support them if they were normal joe soaps rather than a pack of ex-shinners and socialist worker types.

Grand, it doesn't take away from the fact a group of people who are sincere about the process of wholesale fraud that's taking place in this country took a small stand in order to draw attention to the issue. You'll be a long time waiting for any of the "respectable" political types to be doing such a thing. It's a bit hypocritical to deride the likes of NAMA et al and then moan about those who actually do something about it. Similarly Éirigi haven't attempted to monopolise this issue and have called on all citizens to take similar stands in order to fight NAMA and the government cutbacks.

sceptre,

Yes, Anglo Irish HQ is open on a Saturday.

Sand

You refer to the general apathy of the population, and tiny, militant activist groups like eirigi and other tiny, militant activist groups engaging in this sort of activity doesnt signal a sea change in that apathy. So youll have to forgive people for being a little underwhelmed. Eirigi and their fellow hard core nationalist socialists wont ever threaten to lead any sort of political change in Ireland - they dont even live in the same country as the rest of us by all accounts. Eirigi and their manifesto radiates some sort of field that repels anyone whose got higher priorities than the colour of the flags flying over Belfast and/or works for a living.

It would be nice if broad agreement on opposition to NAMA was to be found between Eirigi and others opposed to NAMA, but Eirigi and others are ultimately disinterested in NAMA - its just a front which they use to publicise themselves and their own manifesto with events like that Anglo "occupation". If NAMA is considered at all, its only as a symptom of the deeper and more pressing problem of British military occupation of the six counties.

Sadly, the people responsible for NAMA have their own differences, but they are willing and able to put them to one side to achieve the common goal of feathering their own nests.

Liam Byrne

Maybe they just made a mistake based on the name of the bank ?

As others have said, once they can face the fact that they're in an actual country, and not "26 counties" then maybe the country might take notice of them ?

FTA69

You refer to the general apathy of the population, and tiny, militant activist groups like eirigi and other tiny, militant activist groups engaging in this sort of activity doesnt signal a sea change in that apathy.

I never said it did, what I said is that it is simply a group of genuine activists who have made a stand (no matter how small) and that is to be commended. Similarly they have also called on others to follow such an example, and to be honest it's hard to disagree; if other citizens were as proactive then perhaps the government actually would take notice, because it's apathy that enables them to pull all the strokes they're pulling.

Eirigi and their manifesto radiates some sort of field that repels anyone whose got higher priorities than the colour of the flags flying over Belfast and/or works for a living.

Funnily enough almost everyone in Éirigi I know "works" (as if there was no unemployed people in Ireland anyway), and the party itself is made up of ordinary working people along the lines of milkmen, bus drivers, taxi drivers and cleaners etc. Anyway, you're argument is superfluous considering it is the taxes of other such working people which are going to be used to fund the wholesale robbery that's taking place.

It would be nice if broad agreement on opposition to NAMA was to be found between Eirigi and others opposed to NAMA, but Eirigi and others are ultimately disinterested in NAMA - its just a front which they use to publicise themselves and their own manifesto with events like that Anglo "occupation". If NAMA is considered at all, its only as a symptom of the deeper and more pressing problem of British military occupation of the six counties.

Nonsense, as an inherently socialist organisation Éirigi (and I'm in no way a spokesperson for them here) is primarily concerned with capitalism and the consequences of that system. Now you may disagree with that, but in no way is the party simply about "Brits Out" with aspects of a social conscience, I'm sure most people involved had enough of such a redundant philosophy within Sinn Féin and other organisations. As I said on another thread recently, it is imperative for Republicans to examine the broader constructs in society, and not to focus solely on the occupation as the be all and end all, because it isn't, and it certainly isn't of pressing relevance to the vast majority of working class people in Ireland.

Liam Byrne,

As others have said, once they can face the fact that they're in an actual country, and not "26 counties" then maybe the country might take notice of them ?

They are conscious that they're in a country, they're also conscious of the fact that that country is partitioned and that NAMA etc only affects the part of that country that consists of 26 counties.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

They are conscious that they're in a country, they're also conscious of the fact that that country is partitioned and that NAMA etc only affects the part of that country that consists of 26 counties.

Please do not resort to claiming that the Republic of Ireland is "part of" a country.

It's part of an island, but it is a country, and I refuse to accept your demotion of it to a "part of".......and the facts back me up.

You can have your hopes, dreams and wishes, and many would agree with you (including, in part, myself) but that does not change the facts.

FTA69

Whatever, Ireland is a country. And it consists of more than 26 counties, your assertion would relegate the likes of Derry or Crossmaglen to a category which would make it less "Irish" than the likes of Tralee or Cork. Such a notion is simply nonsense to me.

Anyway, that isn't the issue here and I can see a derailment occurring.

Nodin

Sand wrote: »

..... and/or works for a living.
.....

I see the usual petty slurs have arrived.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Whatever, Ireland is a country. And it consists of more than 26 counties, your assertion would relegate the likes of Derry or Crossmaglen to a category which would make it less "Irish" than the likes of Tralee or Cork. Such a notion is simply nonsense to me.

You made an assertion which was factually wrong, and you persist with it. I made no comment about how "Irish" someone is because, "Irish" can refer to the island, so there's no need to imply that I'm somehow insulting Irish people.

Along the same lines, it's a fact that FF are in Government; I mightn't like it (understatement of the year, really) but it will take democratic effort and agreement from a majority of people to change that.

FTA69 wrote: »

Anyway, that isn't the issue here and I can see a derailment occurring.

No derailment; if I made such a factually incorrect statement in the context of a thread, then I'd be challenged on it.

And it's loosely related to the topic because an otherwise worthwhile protest has an underlying agenda with which many people would rather not be associated; if those organising a protest refuse to acknowledge facts then they can't realistically lead a protest.

Anyway, incorrect fact challenged appropriately, and put in context, so I'll leave it lie.

FTA69

You made an assertion which was factually wrong, and you persist with it.

Nope, basically I said that NAMA only effects the southern part of the country, which is true. That is only "factually incorrect" if one considers that the north of Ireland is not really part of "the country" so to speak. Obviously I don't consider that to be the case.

I mightn't like it (understatement of the year, really) but it will take democratic effort and agreement from a majority of people to change that.

True, and staging peaceful demonstrations etc is part of that democratic effort.

And it's loosely related to the topic because an otherwise worthwhile protest has an underlying agenda with which many people would rather not be associated; if those organising a protest refuse to acknowledge facts then they can't realistically lead a protest.

What underlying agenda? Socialism? Republicanism? All political organisations have an "agenda", there wouldn't be much point in them if they didn't. You mightn't like Republicans, that's fair enough. Perhaps you can be to the fore in leading the next protest?

Sleepy

So, how exactly is this going to help?

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Nope, basically I said that NAMA only effects the southern part of the country, which is true.

NAMA only affects Munster ???? :eek: I'm going to move

FTA69 wrote: »

That is only "factually incorrect" if one considers that the north of Ireland is not really part of "the country" so to speak. Obviously I don't consider that to be the case.

You can't put "the country" in inverted commas and add "so to speak".

It's not part of it. Live with it.

FTA69 wrote: »

What underlying agenda? Socialism? Republicanism? All political organisations have an "agenda", there wouldn't be much point in them if they didn't. You mightn't like Republicans, that's fair enough.

I don't like the ones with the capital "R".

FTA69

NAMA only affects Munster ???? I'm going to move

:rolleyes:

It's not part of it. Live with it.

Hilarious. So Crossmaglen is not in Ireland because it also happens to be in the UK? By your logic Dublin wasn't in Ireland either until 1922. Absolute codology.

I don't like the ones with the capital "R".

Good for you, I don't see many other people out on the streets over NAMA though.

Sleepy,

I never said it was a massive thing or anything, but by your logic any sort of demonstration is fairly pointless and by extension citizen participation in politics thus becomes limited to enumerating a box next to some w*nker's face every five years. You'll find the likes of direct action etc are much more prevalent in the likes of France, and I couldn't see the French acquiescing to the sort of shafting we're after getting here.

j1smithy

FTA69 wrote: »

:rolleyes:




Hilarious. So Crossmaglen is not in Ireland because it also happens to be in the UK? By your logic Dublin wasn't in Ireland either until 1922. Absolute codology.



Good for you, I don't see many other people out on the streets over NAMA though.

Sleepy,

I never said it was a massive thing or anything, but by your logic any sort of demonstration is fairly pointless and by extension citizen participation in politics thus becomes limited to enumerating a box next to some w*nker's face every five years. You'll find the likes of direct action etc are much more prevalent in the likes of France, and I couldn't see the French acquiescing to the sort of shafting we're after getting here.

No Crossmaglen isn't in Ireland (the country/political entity) but is on the island of Ireland the second largest island in the British Isles geographically speaking. Politically Crossmaglen is in the UK and in no other country, as was Dublin up until 1922. Ireland as a country didn't exist before then.

Those are the facts, deal with it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'd support them if they were normal joe soaps rather than a pack of ex-shinners and socialist worker types.

No you wouldn't. You'd find some other reason to dislike them.

Sleepy

FTA69 wrote: »

I never said it was a massive thing or anything, but by your logic any sort of demonstration is fairly pointless and by extension citizen participation in politics thus becomes limited to enumerating a box next to some w*nker's face every five years. You'll find the likes of direct action etc are much more prevalent in the likes of France, and I couldn't see the French acquiescing to the sort of shafting we're after getting here.

And the result of the French direct action every few months? A universal reputation for being inflexible in work practices. Fine when you've a country that's large enough to sustain it's own economy, not so good if you're one of the most open economies in the world and utterly dependent on FDI.

I'm all for writing to TD's and would even support a direct government system such as is in use in Switzerland but all that the protests in Anglo-Irish are going to do is give some security guards some over-time and RTÉ a feature for the news.

Then again, I don't even know why I'm trying to reason with you since you obviously life in a different reality than me where sovereign states and borders are defined by how one would like them to be rather than international treaty or recognition.

FTA69

J1smithy,

Ireland as a country didn't exist before then.

Brilliant. No such thing as Ireland until 1922. There's a difference between being a state and a country, the two aren't necessarily interchangeable. By your logic Lithuania ceased to exist as a country after it became a part of the USSR.

Sleepy,

Right, so the upshot of your point is that Ireland can't be seen to rock the boat in case we scare away MNCs. It reminds me of an editorial I read in the Examiner a few months back, about how "anger isn't what this country needs" and "political maturity should be the order of the day" etc. The only problem is though, that then again relegates the average citizen to complete powerlessness and promotes a mentality of "sure let Lenihan sort it out", hence the massive political apathy that exists in this country.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Brilliant. No such thing as Ireland until 1922. There's a difference between being a state and a country, the two aren't necessarily interchangeable. By your logic Lithuania ceased to exist as a country after it became a part of the USSR.

Eh ? Do you even know what "USSR" stood for ?

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; a grouping in which each country was still a recognised republic / country.

Similar, if you like to the EU. And Ireland is still a country within the EU.

Anyways, we're going way off-topic. We'll discuss your view somewhere else.

But as Sleepy said :

you obviously life in a different reality than me where sovereign states and borders are defined by how one would like them to be rather than international treaty or recognition.

I've NO problem with people wanting something changed, but solving a problem starts with recognising the current facts.

FTA69

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; a grouping in which each country was still a recognised republic / country.

Similar, if you like to the EU. And Ireland is still a country within the EU.

So the set-up in the USSR was similar to the EU? Come on now Liam, you can do better than that lad. The USSR was a large singular state, encompassing a number of different countries. A bit like the UK.

I've NO problem with people wanting something changed, but solving a problem starts with recognising the current facts.

Yup, and I think these demonstrators recognised the key fact here, and that is that NAMA is fundamentally wrong on all levels and that actions like this should be a regular occurrence. At the very least it was a case of ordinary people highlighting an alternative view to the "Lenihan will see us through" bullsh*t we get in the media day in and day out.

If you want to discount that because this particular group doesn't consider the north a foreign country or is in favour of Irish unity then that's your prerogative. But then I'd put it to you that it's yourself who's looking at this action in the wrong light.

Sleepy

FTA69 wrote: »

Sleepy,

Right, so the upshot of your point is that Ireland can't be seen to rock the boat in case we scare away MNCs. It reminds me of an editorial I read in the Examiner a few months back, about how "anger isn't what this country needs" and "political maturity should be the order of the day" etc. The only problem is though, that then again relegates the average citizen to complete powerlessness and promotes a mentality of "sure let Lenihan sort it out", hence the massive political apathy that exists in this country.

The upshot is that if we're going to scare away those MNC's who provide the employment for the vast majority of our skilled workforce, we'd want to be damn sure we're getting something in return for it.

These protestors aren't offering valid alternatives to propping up Anglo. Right now, no-one is. At present bailing it out is the lowest cost option we have. No, that shouldn't be the case. Yes, the government who've put us in this position (and allowed the bank to get themselves into trouble in the first place) are an absolute fvcking disgrace but sitting in the lobby of the bank having a whinge about that isn't going to fix things. And, to be quite honest, we as a population are too short-sighted and ultimately stupid, to vote for an alternative who could.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

By your logic Lithuania ceased to exist as a country after it became a part of the USSR.

FTA69 wrote: »

The USSR was a large singular state, encompassing a number of different countries.

Highlighted your contradiction eloquently, which was my point exactly. Thank you.

As for dismissing people based on their unacceptance of an unrelated fact, how do we know that there aren't other more relevant facts that they refuse to accept ?

Surely the only people who can campaign for the good of this country are those who accept that it actually exists ?

FTA69

Highlighted your contradiction eloquently, which was my point exactly. Thank you.

The operative term in the first quote was "by your logic" i.e. you're the one suggesting that because a country or part of a country comes under the jurisdiction of a different state it then ceases to exist as a country. I wasn't contradicting myself by pointing out why you were insinuating like.

Lithuania remained Lithuania even though it was part of the USSR, Ireland and its northern part remain Ireland even though it was part of the United Kingdom. It's the likes of you and your man who said Ireland didn't exist except as a geographical term until 1922 who are engaging in contradictions. Perhaps a further contradiction in your thinking is your (frankly cracked) assertion that the USSR had a similar set up to the European Union.

Surely the only people who can campaign for the good of this country are those who accept that it actually exists ?

I don't recall anyone from Éirigi denying Ireland's existence (although there are others here who would have a go at such nonsense evidently). At the end of the day Liam, professing a wish for Irish unity doesn't make you incapable of expressing opposition to NAMA. As I said, your problem with this lies in the fact it was Irish Republicans who engaged in such a demonstration.

If such participation in politics disgusts you so much then have a go at it yourself, or weigh in behind those who would. There's nothing stopping you like, as an average citizen you're entitled to.

FTA69

Sleepy wrote: »

but sitting in the lobby of the bank having a whinge about that isn't going to fix things. And, to be quite honest, we as a population are too short-sighted and ultimately stupid, to vote for an alternative who could.

Do you not see a bit of a contradiction there? Perhaps if people opposed to the government were espousing an alternative, and backing that up with organisational and agitative political action then many people would ultimately not be "short sighted and stupid". It's the bald acquiescence to the status quo which keeps people in that situation. It is through grassroots politics that real alternatives are created, because I certainly don't see Kenny, Bruton and the rest of the fairy godmothers as any sort of alternative to be honest.

ejmaztec

This thread proves beyond all doubt that the Irish people in general, will never stand as "one" against the sheisters who've dragged this country into the mire.

One group has a protest, then 400 other groups start questioning the motives of the people involved. In the meantime, the howls of laughter can be heard from the ones responsible for the mess.:(

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

The operative term in the first quote was "by your logic" i.e. you're the one suggesting that because a country or part of a country comes under the jurisdiction of a different state it then ceases to exist as a country. I wasn't contradicting myself by pointing out why you were insinuating like.

Firstly, I insinuated nothing of the sort.

Northern Ireland can't "cease to exist as a country" because it was never a country.

FTA69 wrote: »

Lithuania remained Lithuania even though it was part of the USSR, Ireland and its northern part remain Ireland even though it was part of the United Kingdom.

You're muddying the waters here, because your example doesn't include a part of Lithuania that exists as a country, and a part that doesn't.

My issue is that these people - and to some extent yourself - are relegating Ireland - the country - to being "part of" an island, and referring to it as "26 counties", as if the state doesn't exist. That is my objection, because it's false.

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't recall anyone from Éirigi denying Ireland's existence (although there are others here who would have a go at such nonsense evidently).

Apparently.....

FTA69 wrote: »

Whatever, Ireland is a country. And it consists of more than 26 counties,

No, it doesn't.

FTA69 wrote: »

Perhaps a further contradiction in your thinking is your (frankly cracked) assertion that the USSR had a similar set up to the European Union.

Strawmanning. I was merely highlighting that the country continued to exist, and the politics of same were not part of my example.

On the basis of the countries continuing to exist and be recognised as sovereign states within the larger entity, the assertion and parallel is far from "cracked".

hinault

FTA69 wrote: »

http://eirigi.org/latest/latest250410.html

Personally I was delighted to see activists, accompanied by a Dublin City councillor, occupy the premises of Anglo-Irish Bank. The general problem with this country is that the population is completely apathetic and lethargic in the face of a government that has repeatedly taken the absolute p*ss, as far as I'm aware Lenihan even made a comment to the effect that if the likes of NAMA had been brought in over in France there would have been riots in the streets. Not here of course, here is hoping more people engage in such direct action in future.

Good to see proactive action being taken : regardless of the political affiliation of the protesters.
I welcome their actions.

We need more direction action to be taken against several other corrupt institutions.

Overheal

Overheal approves of any political activism that sticks a big middle finger up the arsehole of complacency

FTA69

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Northern Ireland can't "cease to exist as a country" because it was never a country.

Agreed, Ireland did and does though, although a part of it is currently within the UK.

My issue is that these people - and to some extent yourself - are relegating Ireland - the country - to being "part of" an island,

And my point is that Ireland - the country- doesn't end at the border, and that the notion that Lifford is a dyed-in-the-wool Irish village while Strabane isn't Irish at all is cracked. And to be honest most people who live on that border would also view that as cracked, for instance (an example I've used before) my paternal grandfather has a house and land which is half in Cavan and half in Fermanagh. Nobody is denying that the latter is in the UK, but at the same time it's silly to deny that if I walk 20 seconds up the drive that I'm no longer in my own country.

On the basis of the countries continuing to exist and be recognised as sovereign states within the larger entity, the assertion and parallel is far from "cracked".

So the countries that were in the USSR were "sovereign" states were they? Did they control their tax and currency? Did they have their own flags? Did they have exclusive control over defense and their own standing army?

No they didn't, they were a number of distinct countries within a single and cohesive, centralised state. The UK follows a similar model, even providing a modicum of devolved local autonomy in the form of assemblies. Is Scotland an independent state? Of course not, it's part of the UK. Does it have the right to call itself a country? Of course it does. Although by your logic no such country exists, sure Ireland didn't even exist until 1922!

Look Liam, I could argue this sh*t with you until the cows come home. You may think that the term "Ireland" is solely limited to the 26 counties, and that anything extending north or east of that becomes a vastly different country as foreign as anywhere else in the EU. You could argue that the Tyrone footballers are representatives of a foreign country, or that Mary McAleese wasn't Irish until she got her new passport, all in all it doesn't bother me what you think of the issue.

j1smithy

FTA69 wrote: »

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Agreed, Ireland did and does though, although a part of it is currently within the UK.



And my point is that Ireland - the country- doesn't end at the border, and that the notion that Lifford is a dyed-in-the-wool Irish village while Strabane isn't Irish at all is cracked. And to be honest most people who live on that border would also view that as cracked, for instance (an example I've used before) my paternal grandfather has a house and land which is half in Cavan and half in Fermanagh. Nobody is denying that the latter is in the UK, but at the same time it's silly to deny that if I walk 20 seconds up the drive that I'm no longer in my own country.



So the countries that were in the USSR were "sovereign" states were they? Did they control their tax and currency? Did they have their own flags? Did they have exclusive control over defense and their own standing army?

No they didn't, they were a number of distinct countries within a single and cohesive, centralised state. The UK follows a similar model, even providing a modicum of devolved local autonomy in the form of assemblies. Is Scotland an independent state? Of course not, it's part of the UK. Does it have the right to call itself a country? Of course it does. Although by your logic no such country exists, sure Ireland didn't even exist until 1922!

Look Liam, I could argue this sh*t with you until the cows come home. You may think that the term "Ireland" is solely limited to the 26 counties, and that anything extending north or east of that becomes a vastly different country as foreign as anywhere else in the EU. You could argue that the Tyrone footballers are representatives of a foreign country, or that Mary McAleese wasn't Irish until she got her new passport, all in all it doesn't bother me what you think of the issue.

Look, no matter what your assertations to the contrary Ireland the political entity IS solely limited to the 26 counties. As for your grandfather and his land, yes that 20 second drive did mean you had left the country such is life in an area that straddles the border. I'm sure he also has to deal with the UK Ministry of Agriculture on certain issues as well further proving my point.

Furthermore I have difficulty with so called "Republicans" rather insultingly referring to the Republic of Ireland as "the 26 Counties" and the Irish Government as the "Dublin Government" as a thinly veiled attack on their legitimacy. Oh because incase we forgot they think the real government is the IRA army council which has inherited its legitimacy from 1919. This is of course ignoring that we elect our representatives, rather than inherit them, which rather ironically is more akin to monarchy. Also rather bizarrely they run for election in the Dáil which they don't think should exist (but then maybe its just for the perks). Lets also not forget they submit expenses to Westminster, yet refuse to do what they are paid to do, represent their constituents in Parliament.

Then again maybe if the Army council was in charge things would be different. We wouldn't have any problem raising money, with all the fuel laundering, cigarette smuggling and racketeering going on. Even if a hole did appear in the finances, they could always rob a bank, or a post office. (I guess it would make a change from the banks robbing us:pac:)

And we wonder why people don't want to be associated with groups like Eirigi? I do believe people are very angry with what has happened with Anglo and the economy in general and would love an avenue to protest. The unions should have provided leadership in this area but incrediably they managed to split the country in two, rather than unite against the government. People don't want to be associated with groups and their extremeist views, because as always, while the initial protest will be about Anglo, they will turn it into something which people do not believe in, like "The Socialist Federal Republic" they dream of.

FTA69

Look, no matter what your assertations to the contrary Ireland the political entity IS solely limited to the 26 counties.

And as I've pointed out repeatedly there is often a difference between a political and a national entity. Again, I'll reiterate, do you believe that there is no such country as Scotland? Or that Lithuania ceased to be a country when it was part of the USSR?

I'm sure he also has to deal with the UK Ministry of Agriculture on certain issues as well further proving my point.

As do farmers in the Outer Hebrides, it doesn't mean they aren't Scottish though, or that their farms aren't in Scotland.

Furthermore I have difficulty with so called "Republicans" rather insultingly referring to the Republic of Ireland as "the 26 Counties" and the Irish Government as the "Dublin Government" as a thinly veiled attack on their legitimacy. Oh because incase we forgot they think the real government is the IRA army council which has inherited its legitimacy from 1919. This is of course ignoring that we elect our representatives, rather than inherit them, which rather ironically is more akin to monarchy. Also rather bizarrely they run for election in the Dáil which they don't think should exist (but then maybe its just for the perks). Lets also not forget they submit expenses to Westminster, yet refuse to do what they are paid to do, represent their constituents in Parliament.

Then again maybe if the Army council was in charge things would be different. We wouldn't have any problem raising money, with all the fuel laundering, cigarette smuggling and racketeering going on. Even if a hole did appear in the finances, they could always rob a bank, or a post office. (I guess it would make a change from the banks robbing us)

Yeah whatever. Éirigi have nothing to do with the Provisionals and as far as I'm aware they're the only Republican organisation not connected to an armed group in any guise.

And we wonder why people don't want to be associated with groups like Eirigi? I do believe people are very angry with what has happened with Anglo and the economy in general and would love an avenue to protest. The unions should have provided leadership in this area but incrediably they managed to split the country in two, rather than unite against the government. People don't want to be associated with groups and their extremeist views, because as always, while the initial protest will be about Anglo, they will turn it into something which people do not believe in, like "The Socialist Federal Republic" they dream of.

Grand job. Hopefully then you'll weigh in behind your own chosen group or whatever and opine that they should be more proactive on the issue.

Sleepy

FTA69 wrote: »

Do you not see a bit of a contradiction there? Perhaps if people opposed to the government were espousing an alternative, and backing that up with organisational and agitative political action then many people would ultimately not be "short sighted and stupid". It's the bald acquiescence to the status quo which keeps people in that situation. It is through grassroots politics that real alternatives are created, because I certainly don't see Kenny, Bruton and the rest of the fairy godmothers as any sort of alternative to be honest.

Espouse the alternative.

Show it as more workable than the status quo.

THEN protest if you're not listened to.

This is my problem with the protesters in question, they're not offering anything other than the typical 'stop throwing tax money at this' ignorant of the fact that currently, any other option we go for will result in a higher bill for the tax payer.

SlabMurphy

Sleepy wrote: »

Espouse the alternative.

Show it as more workable than the status quo.

THEN protest if you're not listened to.

This is my problem with the protesters in question, they're not offering anything other than the typical 'stop throwing tax money at this' ignorant of the fact that currently, any other option we go for will result in a higher bill for the tax payer.

I would have thought that protest/campaign comes first to gather support, to attain power to prove their views are more workable than the status quo ?

How are they supposed to attain power first to change the status quo and then protest if they are not listened to ?

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

and my point is that Ireland - the country- doesn't end at the border

The country does. I'm not saying I like it, but it does. And I won't allow anyone to run it down as if the "26 counties" weren't a complete entity in themselves - it's my country.

FTA69 wrote: »

, and that the notion that Lifford is a dyed-in-the-wool Irish village while Strabane isn't Irish at all is cracked.

In that sentence alone you've expressed the mindset that causes problems.

Why is it ALWAYS two extremes ?

What if Lifford is less than severely "dyed-in-the-wool", supporting cricket and watching - say - lots of UK talent shows on TV ?

What if Strabane likes Gaelic Football or Fair City ?

Life isn't about "us vs them" in the sense that Eirigi & Co see it, so they are certainly not the ones to lead a campaign in the real "us vs them" - the haves and have-nots.

SlabMurphy

Sand wrote: »

Eirigi and their fellow hard core nationalist socialists wont ever threaten to lead any sort of political change in Ireland - they dont even live in the same country as the rest of us by all accounts. Eirigi and their manifesto radiates some sort of field that repels anyone whose got higher priorities than the colour of the flags flying over Belfast and/or works for a living.

Would you happen to be a supporter/member of the Fine Gael Conservative and Unionist party ?

Liam Byrne

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Would you happen to be a supporter/member of the Fine Gael Conservative and Unionist party ?

Who are they ? Never heard of them.

Of course there is a trend among some circles to add words to titles in order to imply an association.

dlofnep

The usual handbags hijacking threads.

It's moot whether you consider Ireland to be a single entity, or whether you agree with it's partition. That's not the context for discussion. As always - any thread that involves a republican group ends into ad hominem attacks, instead of a discussion about the topic of discussion.

Now with that being said, you'll have to apologise if I actually get back on topic. I think this was a solid move by those involved (and no, I'm not a supporter of éirígí). The fact that our children will have to pay for the deeds of a few evil arm-chair bandits, and be unaccountable for it - gives merit to these protests.

Sleepy

SlabMurphy wrote: »

I would have thought that protest/campaign comes first to gather support, to attain power to prove their views are more workable than the status quo ?

How are they supposed to attain power first to change the status quo and then protest if they are not listened to ?

You're rather missing the point: the protestors don't have a more workable view.

In instances of economic argument, facts and figures are, and should be imho, more relevant than power.

Though why I'm trying to explain that right and wrong are more important than 'power' to someone using a petty warlord's name as their handle is beyond me...

Liam Byrne

Sleepy wrote: »

You're rather missing the point: the protestors don't have a more workable view.

The protesters aren't paid a couple of hundred grand to investigate a more workable view.

If a non-white-collar criminal robs you, do you now need to "suggest an alternative" as to how he should pay for his drug habit before you can protest at his actions ?

And given that the EU now views the Anglo cesspit bailout as unacceptable, are you going to argue the same point ?

Or will the EU probably just say "that's unacceptable - sort it out properly; and no, don't expect us to give you a solution because that's YOUR job".

SlabMurphy

Sleepy wrote: »

You're rather missing the point: the protestors don't have a more workable view.

In instances of economic argument, facts and figures are, and should be imho, more relevant than power.

Well I'm not a member of the organisation, I'm like Overheal who posted " Overheal approves of any political activism that sticks a big middle finger up the arsehole of complacency "

Though why I'm trying to explain that right and wrong are more important than 'power' to someone using a petty warlord's name as their handle is beyond me...

Appearently the party name, Eirígí, means rise. It is a reference to a quote from Jim Larkin "The great appear great to us only because we are on our knees; let us rise!"

Sleepy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The protesters aren't paid a couple of hundred grand to investigate a more workable view.

If a non-white-collar criminal robs you, do you now need to "suggest an alternative" as to how he should pay for his drug habit before you can protest at his actions ?

And given that the EU now views the Anglo cesspit bailout as unacceptable, are you going to argue the same point ?

Or will the EU probably just say "that's unacceptable - sort it out properly; and no, don't expect us to give you a solution because that's YOUR job".

I just don't see the point in screaming 'this is wrong' at the people trying to find a solution to the thing that's wrong.

We can't let Anglo fall because it'll cost us more than it currently is. nesf made a great post on this in relation to the McWilliams article where he suggested we do just that.

Look, I'm just as much in favour of removing the clowns in government from that position as you are. Protests about NAMA or Anglo aren't going to bring that about. We need to wait for the General Election and vote them out.

In the meantime, kicking up a fuss does very little beyond giving the Indo something other than the actual problems something to write about.

This protest is a useless waste of time. If the organisation was actually true to it's roots and starting knee-capping or murdering some of the current government they might bring about change but is that the route we really want to go down?

SlabMurphy

Lenihan is hinting that heir going to close it down - Lenihan leaves door open for wind-down of Anglo Irish Bank
http://www.businessandfinance.ie/cat_news_detail.jsp?itemID=1558

So, it looks like Eirigi's protest last Saturday changed Lenihan's mind !!!

Sleepy

Nothing to do with the EU Slab? :rolleyes: