George Hook's Article

TheTMO

When the decision was taken to hold the Heineken Cup final in Paris, the organisers hoped for a French side to be in contention at that stage. The semi-final draw will have the ERC on tenterhooks that the ultimate final can take place. A Toulouse/Munster decider would be the ideal pairing for television, ticket sales, the sponsor and the competition. Leinster may be the holders, but Munster have the wider appeal and nobody, respective fans apart, wants an all-French or all-Irish decider.

Munster continue to defy the realities of their situation. Northampton learned enough in the pool stages to approach a quarter-final with confidence yet submitted weakly when the hard questions were asked. Biarritz, unlike Toulouse, do not have the pressures of the knock-out stages of the French championship to contend with, but they are fragile and Munster know it. If an Irish province is to go to Paris, then the old reliable are the favourites. It may, however, be a last hurrah for the men in red.

Leinster are likely to have a brighter future in the next decade of the competition. Munster are in need of a rebuild, whereas Leinster have more strength in depth. It is in the respective academies that the future of the Irish provinces is being decided.

When the Munster pack lines out in San Sebastian, it will have just one player under 30, James Coughlan substituting for the 29-year-old Denis Leamy. Munster will point to internationals Niall Ronan and Donnacha Ryan as reserves. However, Ryan, despite his elevated status, has had just seven starts this season and Ronan has been selected twice for Heineken Cup games but been much more regular in the Magners League. Interestingly, Tony Buckley, touted as the replacement for John Hayes, will be 30 in October. Hardly a promising beginner.

In the backline too, there are issues of obsolescence. Ronan O'Gara and his regular replacement Paul Warwick have been ever-presents in the Heineken Cup and between them racked up an impressive number of starts in the Magners League. Jeremy Manning, the presumptive replacement for both, is just four months younger than Jonathan Sexton but a lifetime behind the Dubliner in experience. It is an indication of the lack of development in Manning's game that in the last three seasons, he has featured just a quarter of the times that he played in his first two seasons with Munster. It is hardly the preparation for a starting role in the future and makes the signing of foreign players all the more likely.

The paucity of back-up in the Munster squad is in marked contrast to the position at Leinster. The replacement backline in the Pale bristles with talent, like Ian Madigan, Andrew Conway and Fergus McFadden. Sadly, Leinster are no further advanced than their southern competitors at prop forward as Mike Ross shadows the tighthead spot at the tender age of 31.

Leinster, with greater numbers of schoolboy players and a more competitive Schools Cup competition, are always more likely to have a stronger academy group. Happily, however, the schools in both Munster and Leinster are resisting inroads by the professionals to identify and become involved with youngsters still in their mid-teens.

The Leinster Schools Cup final demonstrated that some really innovative coaching is now taking place in the province. It will provide a conveyor belt of exciting talent to the provincial team to add to the riches currently on display. These young players are also much more likely to get exposure at a senior level than their counterparts in Munster.

The Munster brand is huge and its need to continually generate finance to support the signing of high-priced imports means that rarely do the lesser players get an opportunity to shine. Michael Cheika did his province no favours by his misjudged selections last week, but the performance of an inordinately young side against Glasgow on Friday night was a clear indication of the strength in depth of the eastern province.

Munster will, of course, point to the outstanding win by their A side last weekend against Connacht, but the appearance column for the young players in red is dwarfed by the experience being gained by Leinster's back-up players. Devin Toner is a prime example with 45 appearances for Leinster and still not 24 years of age.

Rugby remains a game decided by the middle five of back row and half-backs. Leinster, with Jamie Heaslip, Seán O'Brien and Kevin McLaughlin boasting an average age of 25, will be around for a long time to come. Backed up by Sexton at out-half, the RDS is likely to see more wins than losses.

The situation is much more parlous at Thomond Park and the strategy will clearly be the transfer market rather than home-grown talent. That has its risks, as witnessed by the decision of the estimable Jean de Villiers to return to his homeland to seek a place in RWC 2011. The result is that Munster are left with Lifeimi Mafi for next season as their one front-rank centre. Keith Earls will stultify his international chances if he is forced to play in the centre.

Meanwhile, the new Leinster coach will face a choice of Rob Kearney and Luke Fitzgerald at full-back and the burgeoning superstars in the academy will replace Shane Horgan and eventually Brian O'Driscoll and Gordon D'Arcy. However, as the Toulouse game will no doubt demonstrate, there is always a need for injury cover. The heady days of Felipe Contepomi pushed by Sexton are no more, and not having a short-term quality replacement for next week's eventuality will probably cost Leinster dear.

Munster showed the way in Europe but Leinster will be Ireland's hope over the next decade. The numbers game will be decisive.



I'm suprised no one has mentioned this yet, seems to be the big elephant in the room that Irish rugby doesnt want to talk about. I am wondering, if the IRFU control all the provinces then surely they could force Leinster to hand over some of their younger players to Munster? Do Leinster really need all of Dominic Ryan, Ruddock, Keving McLaughlin, Sean O'Brien for instance?

Chucky the tree

If Munster can't develop there own players then tough ****. Not sure how you can say Leinster don't need Kevin McLaughlin or Sean O'Brien. Have you not watched Leinster at all this season?

TheTMO

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If Munster can't develop there own players then tough ****. Not sure how you can say Leinster don't need Kevin McLaughlin or Sean O'Brien. Have you not watched Leinster at all this season?

No I mean they don't need ALL of them. No point in having either Dominic Ryan or Ruddock on the bench when they could be getting more game time elsewhere?

tiernanmul_gos

Chucky the tree wrote: »

If Munster can't develop there own players then tough ****. Not sure how you can say Leinster don't need Kevin McLaughlin or Sean O'Brien. Have you not watched Leinster at all this season?

munster a full of youths in b and i cup final? shows they can develop plenty of players

JustinDee

TheTMO wrote: »

I am wondering, if the IRFU control all the provinces then surely they could force Leinster to hand over some of their younger players to Munster? Do Leinster really need all of Dominic Ryan, Ruddock, Keving McLaughlin, Sean O'Brien for instance?

The players are the deciding factor in where they play.
They can say 'sod this' and play Guinness Premiership or Top 14 instead if they wanted.
They can't actually be forced to play anywhere.

sock puppet

TheTMO wrote: »

No I mean they don't need ALL of them. No point in having either Dominic Ryan or Ruddock on the bench when they could be getting more game time elsewhere?

Well they could introduce a draft system like in New Zealand if they wanted to spread the talent more evenly. But Munster have a lot of young backrowers too. It'd make more sense to give them a chance before singing unproven Leinster players.

And Leinster were close enough to having to play Stephen Keogh against Clermont. There isn't as much depth as you might think.

Risteard

I'm not sure that Munster is the disaster waiting in happen that it's being made out to be. We're facing a similar situation that Leinster faced a few years ago.

The reason Leinster's back row is such a young one is that they had to be picked due to Costello, Miller and Gleeson retiring in and around the same time. Munster will be facing the same when Quinnie and Wallace retire. There's nothing to suggest that the same won't happen with Munster, considering back-row especially is an area of depth for us. Second row is a bit of a worry but there are youngsters to step up as their bodies mature in the next year or two and will probably pick up gametime next year with the increased fixtures.

phog

Hook obviously hasn't been watching the B&I Cup and he has previously admitted to not watching the ML so his knowledge of young players coming through in any province would be fairly limited.

profitius

Hook isn't interested enough to see whats happening behind the scenes. Munster are flying in the B&I cup.Deasy has been the find of the season for Munster. A versitile back with the skill and vision to make an impact.

The young players are:

-Scott Deasy, really talented and confidence to go with it. Probably Munsters find of the year.
-Earls, Lion
-Denis Hurley, is playing as a winger this season and has grown into the position.
-Gleeson, a player who has a bit of class and won't let the side down.
-Danny Barnes and Zebo, young wingers with potential.
-Duncan Williams, rated highly by the management.
-Declan Cusack, rated higher the Manning who they're letting go.

-Peter O'Mahony, rated very highly and looks certain to have a big future.
-Tommy O'Donnell, last years academy player of the year. Has the physicality to make an impact.
-Eoin Grace, can't get a game because of all the backrows.
-Ian Nagle and Dave Foley, two promising second rows.
-Dave Ryan, a player who will be playing for Munster for many years to come. A solid scrummager (better then his brother Timmy) and high workrate.
-Dave O'Callaghan, looks like DOC.
-Paddy Butler, another ireland U20 star and making an impact at Shannon already. Looks to be another backrower to watch.


I've probably left out a few names but the point is theres loads of players coming through. All they need is gametime. The B&I cup team were full of young players with plenty of talent. Munster have alot of B&I Lions though and thats the problem. In the next few years as the lions retire theres a good crop of young player hungry to make an impact. So the least talked about competition could prove to be the most pleasing for all those involved in Munsters youth development.

CatFromHue

i would have thought after munster beat connacht last week with a very young team that this article might have had a bit of a different swing to it.

i think hurley could be a very good winger, he was doing very well earlier this season.

i liked what i saw from gleeson yesterday, some bad things but also some good things.

felix jones hopefully will be back next season too.

its not just munsters but irelands probs with new props not coming through.

Aidric

Hook is as much an authority on Rugby as Eamon Dunphy is on Spanish Soccer.

chupacabra

profitius wrote: »

Hook isn't interested enough to see whats happening behind the scenes. Munster are flying in the B&I cup.Deasy has been the find of the season for Munster. A versitile back with the skill and vision to make an impact.

The young players are:

-Scott Deasy, really talented and confidence to go with it. Probably Munsters find of the year.
-Earls, Lion
-Denis Hurley, is playing as a winger this season and has grown into the position.
-Gleeson, a player who has a bit of class and won't let the side down.
-Danny Barnes and Zebo, young wingers with potential.
-Duncan Williams, rated highly by the management.
-Declan Cusack, rated higher the Manning who they're letting go.

-Peter O'Mahony, rated very highly and looks certain to have a big future.
-Tommy O'Donnell, last years academy player of the year. Has the physicality to make an impact.
-Eoin Grace, can't get a game because of all the backrows.
-Ian Nagle and Dave Foley, two promising second rows.
-Dave Ryan, a player who will be playing for Munster for many years to come. A solid scrummager (better then his brother Timmy) and high workrate.
-Dave O'Callaghan, looks like DOC.
-Paddy Butler, another ireland U20 star and making an impact at Shannon already. Looks to be another backrower to watch.


I've probably left out a few names but the point is theres loads of players coming through. All they need is gametime. The B&I cup team were full of young players with plenty of talent. Munster have alot of B&I Lions though and thats the problem. In the next few years as the lions retire theres a good crop of young player hungry to make an impact. So the least talked about competition could prove to be the most pleasing for all those involved in Munsters youth development.

You've left out probably, in my opinion, the biggest star of the future for Munster in Brian O'Hara. Since his injury last year people have stopped mentioning this lad but believe me he will be a future international for Ireland.

profitius

chupacabra wrote: »

You've left out probably, in my opinion, the biggest star of the future for Munster in Brian O'Hara. Since his injury last year people have stopped mentioning this lad but believe me he will be a future international for Ireland.

I've never seen him play. Heard good things about him alright and hopefully he'll get a run free of injuries.

subfreq

After the WC in 2011 Munster and every club in Europe will have the pick of the elite and will cherry pick to fill the major gaps.

Warwick will come in and fill the major one at fly half position while Cusack gets his game time. They have plenty of cover for the back three.

I do agree that Leinster will probably get the bigger share of the spoils in the next five years but that is due to the fact that they currently have at least 4 home grown world class internationals in BOD, Heaslip, Kearney and Fitz and look like Healy might not be that far behind if he works on his scrum. Ruddock as well has a long way to go but looks every bit the real deal.

I think both provinces will stay strong but Hooky does have a point about making sure the major talents don't waste away on training fields without getting game time.

If Leinster have no intention of using some players then it is in the interest for Irish rugby to get them into a team that will give them game time. It's too thorny an issue to say hand them down to Munster and maybe this is where Connacht can continue to be helped.

lawrencesummers

i get the point he is making, the leinster players like mcfadden and toner are more developed than the munster players, this might get them into the international setup ahead of players like gleeson or nagle,

munster have a lot coming through, but probably not enough quickly enough for some positions, like prop, center, outhalf meaning that players like hayes and ROG are not being pushed, and they will have to import players, which can be a costly thing to do.

2040

lawrencesummers wrote: »

i get the point he is making, the leinster players like mcfadden and toner are more developed than the munster players, this might get them into the international setup ahead of players like gleeson or nagle,

munster have a lot coming through, but probably not enough quickly enough for some positions, like prop, center, outhalf meaning that players like hayes and ROG are not being pushed, and they will have to import players, which can be a costly thing to do.

There's too many players who have guaranteed places regardless of form though. There's plenty of youth and talent at Munster i think but they don't get enough game time at the highest level.

Podge_irl

TheTMO wrote: »

Do Leinster really need all of Dominic Ryan, Ruddock, Keving McLaughlin, Sean O'Brien for instance?

Of course they do. Only two of them are senior players, and both are guaranteed places in the matchday 22, and SOB may soon be starting at 7 for Leinster. Ryan and Ruddock are only in the academy sure, they wouldn't be seeing any more game time down in Munster. In two years time if there are no openings in Leinster then maybe they'll head off, but a squad requires depth, not just a top class XV. Leinster's backrow resources have hardly looked amazing this season when faced with a couple injuries.

TheTMO

profitius wrote: »

Hook isn't interested enough to see whats happening behind the scenes. Munster are flying in the B&I cup.Deasy has been the find of the season for Munster. A versitile back with the skill and vision to make an impact.

The young players are:

-Scott Deasy, really talented and confidence to go with it. Probably Munsters find of the year.
-Earls, Lion
-Denis Hurley, is playing as a winger this season and has grown into the position.
-Gleeson, a player who has a bit of class and won't let the side down.
-Danny Barnes and Zebo, young wingers with potential.
-Duncan Williams, rated highly by the management.
-Declan Cusack, rated higher the Manning who they're letting go.

-Peter O'Mahony, rated very highly and looks certain to have a big future.
-Tommy O'Donnell, last years academy player of the year. Has the physicality to make an impact.
-Eoin Grace, can't get a game because of all the backrows.
-Ian Nagle and Dave Foley, two promising second rows.
-Dave Ryan, a player who will be playing for Munster for many years to come. A solid scrummager (better then his brother Timmy) and high workrate.
-Dave O'Callaghan, looks like DOC.
-Paddy Butler, another ireland U20 star and making an impact at Shannon already. Looks to be another backrower to watch.


I've probably left out a few names but the point is theres loads of players coming through. All they need is gametime. The B&I cup team were full of young players with plenty of talent. Munster have alot of B&I Lions though and thats the problem. In the next few years as the lions retire theres a good crop of young player hungry to make an impact. So the least talked about competition could prove to be the most pleasing for all those involved in Munsters youth development.

Theres definitely quite a gap (right now) between those players and the likes of :

Luke Fitzgerald
Rob Kearney
Jonathan Sexton
Paul O'Donahue
Fergus McFadden
Andrew Conway
Ian Madigan
Michael Keating

Cian Healy,
Sean O'Brien,
Kevin McLaughlin,
Devin Toner,
Ciaran Ruddock,
Rhys Ruddock,
Jack McGrath,
Dominic Ryan

Most of Leinsters youth are actually in the 22 of the full senior team which is crazy.

One point Hook misses though is that these things always seem to come in cycles.

Amazotheamazing

The biggest mistake in Hook's article is that he fails to point out Ryan has suffered injuries that have kept him out this season, and that Manning has missed large parts of each of his pro seasons due to injury. Sadly, I fear Manning will always be a "what might have been" player, his body just won't take professional rugby. If he does leave this summer, I hope he can become the player he has the talent to be.

Anyhow, most teams in Europe would kill to have guys like POM, Grace, O'Hara etc coming through, Hook should have written the article two years ago before these guys appeared.

buck65

This article was more pertinent 6 months ago. Munster due to varying reasons such as injury and international duties have had to blood quite a few new faces this season and have shown whilst not at the class of a Kearney or Heaslip we do have some decent ML level players in the pipeline. If these guys are good enough to make the step up to Heineken Cup will be seen next season.
McGahan has done well this season and some of the older lads are playing great rugby and are getting rotated well. It is unfortunate for us that Earls, Howlett and O Connell are injured as these are positions where we don't have alot of cover and may cost us in Biarritz.

Crash

Aye, i think the more relevant part of the issue isn't so much the quality of players coming through, but more the experience levels that the players have at a comparable age. This season has seen significantly more players blooded at a younger age for Munster, which is the most important thing for Munster as ateam over the next few years.

themont85

He does seem to be late to the party with this column, but he is right about the quality of Leinster Schools players.

bamboozle

the way i see it there are numerous players under 22 who have come through at Leinster or are on the verge of breaking through who look like they'll be fixtures in the international team, there dont seem to many equivilent players at Munster Earls aside, i believe Duncan Williams is being released.

Gerry thornley did a piece on this before christmas, in it the head of the Munster Academy was saying they were a good 18 months behind Leinster in their academy.

It will be very interesting to see this summer where the like of Monahan, Grace, Tonetti end up.

lawrencesummers

2040 wrote: »

There's too many players who have guaranteed places regardless of form though. There's plenty of youth and talent at Munster i think but they don't get enough game time at the highest level.

like who, what payer is getting his game on reputation and who is being left out that is better?

there are a lot of players that have shown potential, but on the big day you need the wise heads, look at where they are in the HCUP compared to the ML, and the team that is picked for the HCUP is the one with the "guranteed places" compared to the ML where every squad player and a lot of academy and "A" players have had their chance to shine,

Tim Robbins

profitius wrote: »

Hook isn't interested enough to see whats happening behind the scenes. Munster are flying in the B&I cup.Deasy has been the find of the season for Munster. A versitile back with the skill and vision to make an impact.

The young players are:

-Scott Deasy, really talented and confidence to go with it. Probably Munsters find of the year.
-Earls, Lion
-Denis Hurley, is playing as a winger this season and has grown into the position.
-Gleeson, a player who has a bit of class and won't let the side down.
-Danny Barnes and Zebo, young wingers with potential.
-Duncan Williams, rated highly by the management.
-Declan Cusack, rated higher the Manning who they're letting go.

-Peter O'Mahony, rated very highly and looks certain to have a big future.
-Tommy O'Donnell, last years academy player of the year. Has the physicality to make an impact.
-Eoin Grace, can't get a game because of all the backrows.
-Ian Nagle and Dave Foley, two promising second rows.
-Dave Ryan, a player who will be playing for Munster for many years to come. A solid scrummager (better then his brother Timmy) and high workrate.
-Dave O'Callaghan, looks like DOC.
-Paddy Butler, another ireland U20 star and making an impact at Shannon already. Looks to be another backrower to watch.


I've probably left out a few names but the point is theres loads of players coming through. All they need is gametime. The B&I cup team were full of young players with plenty of talent. Munster have alot of B&I Lions though and thats the problem. In the next few years as the lions retire theres a good crop of young player hungry to make an impact. So the least talked about competition could prove to be the most pleasing for all those involved in Munsters youth development.

Zebo looks good.

Podge_irl

I think it's somewhat interesting that one of Leinster's best players this season was McLaughlin who was reasonably inexperienced before October but has slotted in seamlessly. It no doubt helped that he was surrounded by experienced, high-class players which is somewhat relevant to Munster's problem. I have no doubt that they have high quality players to come through, but if they bring them all in at once they're still going to suffer.

canine

Look ,everything Hook says must be taken with a pinch of salt ,he has no concept of the modern game and even less concept of rugby in the past ,he admits himself he was a complete failure in management ,his comments on tv and in the written press are purely out there to provoke debate ,I remember before last years game against Scotland he said that Scotland were better all over the park than us and when we beat them he said Scotland were a third tier rugby nation ,if he keeps comming out with the same old mantra he,s bound to be right sometime (scotland this year ).He has no credibility in rugby journalism and is purely their for the comedic factor

Gracelessly Tom

canine wrote: »

Look ,everything Hook says must be taken with a pinch of salt ,he has no concept of the modern game and even less concept of rugby in the past ,he admits himself he was a complete failure in management ,his comments on tv and in the written press are purely out there to provoke debate ,I remember before last years game against Scotland he said that Scotland were better all over the park than us and when we beat them he said Scotland were a third tier rugby nation ,if he keeps comming out with the same old mantra he,s bound to be right sometime (scotland this year ).He has no credibility in rugby journalism and is purely their for the comedic factor

Couldn't agree with you more. Hook states polar opposites of his opinion on a topic from one week to the next. One week Ireland are genuine contenders for the WC, the following week we're in danger of slipping into the rugby oblivion. I'm a firm believer that he only says half the things he does to get a rise out of folk...... not to mention the fact he can make a very decent living out of it!

sock puppet

lawrencesummers wrote: »

like who, what payer is getting his game on reputation and who is being left out that is better?

Well there was Ronan and Mafi this season. Though to be fair they seem to have been dropped now.

canine

Hook is not only a joke in rugby journalism but is a complete light weight in the news world ,he has a set of questions for all interviewees and has,nt the depth of knowledge if he,s thrown a curve ball,seems an affable enough kind of fellow who,se managed to carve out a career for himself late in life ,so deserves some acknowledgement for that but Ive given up listening to him ,if you watch their delayed coverage of the H-cup its plain to see their pre match comments are based on them already watching the game on sky

profitius

Another thing that should be mentioned is that Leinsters academy is probably the best in Europe. Munster's academy is also good compared to most European teams but obviously comparing it to Leinster it can be better. Thats why competition is great for Irish rugby.

I'm sure even Leinster are far behind the southern hemisphere teams.

2040

lawrencesummers wrote: »

like who, what payer is getting his game on reputation and who is being left out that is better?

there are a lot of players that have shown potential, but on the big day you need the wise heads, look at where they are in the HCUP compared to the ML, and the team that is picked for the HCUP is the one with the "guranteed places" compared to the ML where every squad player and a lot of academy and "A" players have had their chance to shine,

ROG's place is nailed on regardless of what he does. Ditto O'Leary. The De Villiers/Mafi combination was stuck with for way too long. Howlett's undroppable. It took far too long for Fogarty to be dropped.

lawrencesummers

2040 wrote: »

ROG's place is nailed on regardless of what he does. Ditto O'Leary. The De Villiers/Mafi combination was stuck with for way too long. Howlett's undroppable. It took far too long for Fogarty to be dropped.

there is nobody pushing to take the 10 jersey, warwick played at 10 and didnt make much impression, he looks better at FB.

there is a line between giving a player a chance to get it right and overplaying a poor performer, mafi has done it before for munster so its reasonable to give him a few chances, fogs is a very good player except for one aspect of his game

players need game time to correct errors in their game, TOL was nowhere near the player he is now when he moved in from the wing, management have to have some faith that players will get it right, like mushy, nick williams, and the best example of this is coughlan who improves with every game, nobody is undropable but players must be showing something in practice to earn the selectors faith.

phog

The academies in Ireland are new to the provinces and time will tell if they are dealing with them correctly, are we in danger of producing too many players for such a small pool of professional players here in Ireland. The squads are probably around 35 for the Leinster, Ulster and Munster with 28 for Connacht, each player would expect at least 10-15 years game time, so will we end up with disgruntled players coming through the academies or exporting our best?

durkadurka

In jan last year, hook said it was the beginning of the end of leinster as a top team. since then i don't need to remind you what happened and now he suddenly realises that they have a young team with loads of young players coming through, and that munster is getting old.

Tbh i dont even know why we're discussing this.

2040

lawrencesummers wrote: »

there is nobody pushing to take the 10 jersey, warwick played at 10 and didnt make much impression, he looks better at FB.

there is a line between giving a player a chance to get it right and overplaying a poor performer, mafi has done it before for munster so its reasonable to give him a few chances, fogs is a very good player except for one aspect of his game

players need game time to correct errors in their game, TOL was nowhere near the player he is now when he moved in from the wing, management have to have some faith that players will get it right, like mushy, nick williams, and the best example of this is coughlan who improves with every game, nobody is undropable but players must be showing something in practice to earn the selectors faith.

At the start of the season Warwick and Jones were playing well and ROG was beyond appalling. That's neither here nor there though.

I know you have to give players time and that you can't immediately drop them. But it's almost like the same logic doesn't apply to younger players. They need to make an instant impression to break through it seems.

It just annoys me that there's 23/24/25 year olds in the setup who might get one or two magner's league games off the bench per season.

phog

2040 wrote: »

At the start of the season Warwick and Jones were playing well and ROG was beyond appalling. That's neither here nor there though.

I know you have to give players time and that you can't immediately drop them. But it's almost like the same logic doesn't apply to younger players. They need to make an instant impression to break through it seems.

It just annoys me that there's 23/24/25 year olds in the setup who might get one or two magner's league games off the bench per season.

Senior players have proven themselves over many games, suddenly they dip in form and you want the coach to drop them for a rookie? I've never coached but I'd bet team selection is based on more than just what a coach sees in the last game. There is team dynamic, how players perform during training, what the coach wants a particular player to bring to a game.

profitius

phog wrote: »

The academies in Ireland are new to the provinces and time will tell if they are dealing with them correctly, are we in danger of producing too many players for such a small pool of professional players here in Ireland. The squads are probably around 35 for the Leinster, Ulster and Munster with 28 for Connacht, each player would expect at least 10-15 years game time, so will we end up with disgruntled players coming through the academies or exporting our best?

The higher the quality players we produce means theres more chance of producing world class players.

If theres lots of these players it'll mean some will go abroad but also some will go to Connacht strengthening the Connacht squad. Fionn Carr and Sean Cronin are good examples of players getting recognised playing for Connacht. I think this could have a positive knock on effect for Connacht because other players will now see it as a good career option.

2040

phog wrote: »

Senior players have proven themselves over many games, suddenly they dip in form and you want the coach to drop them for a rookie? I've never coached but I'd bet team selection is based on more than just what a coach sees in the last game. There is team dynamic, how players perform during training, what the coach wants a particular player to bring to a game.

I know. I accept that. I think i'm just apprehensive that when all of the older players retire, presumably after the WC, that we'll just be left with players with potential but no experience. I'm probably going a bit overboard tbh.

sleepyman

profitius wrote: »

Hook isn't interested enough to see whats happening behind the scenes. Munster are flying in the B&I cup.Deasy has been the find of the season for Munster. A versitile back with the skill and vision to make an impact.

The young players are:

-Scott Deasy, really talented and confidence to go with it. Probably Munsters find of the year.
-Earls, Lion
-Denis Hurley, is playing as a winger this season and has grown into the position.
-Gleeson, a player who has a bit of class and won't let the side down.
-Danny Barnes and Zebo, young wingers with potential.
-Duncan Williams, rated highly by the management.
-Declan Cusack, rated higher the Manning who they're letting go.

-Peter O'Mahony, rated very highly and looks certain to have a big future.
-Tommy O'Donnell, last years academy player of the year. Has the physicality to make an impact.
-Eoin Grace, can't get a game because of all the backrows.
-Ian Nagle and Dave Foley, two promising second rows.
-Dave Ryan, a player who will be playing for Munster for many years to come. A solid scrummager (better then his brother Timmy) and high workrate.
-Dave O'Callaghan, looks like DOC.
-Paddy Butler, another ireland U20 star and making an impact at Shannon already. Looks to be another backrower to watch.


I've probably left out a few names but the point is theres loads of players coming through. All they need is gametime. The B&I cup team were full of young players with plenty of talent. Munster have alot of B&I Lions though and thats the problem. In the next few years as the lions retire theres a good crop of young player hungry to make an impact. So the least talked about competition could prove to be the most pleasing for all those involved in Munsters youth development.

How many of the above though will make it?Deasy looks good, maybe a bit one-paced but has good hands & an eye for the gap.Obviously Earls & Hurley are on full contracts, Barnes was offered a contract when the tigers came sniffing I think.
But out of the remaining players maybe just 3 or 4 will make it and the rest will play ail?
If you go through the academy over the last few years alot of the lads didn't make it.
It makes you wonder were they ever good enough & what selection criteria they use to get lads into the academy.
The likes of Conan Doyle & Murray Kinsella looked like lads that physically weren't big enough for the demands when they were in the academy.
Other players like Gerry Hurrley & Michael Essex just seemed to disappear off the radar.
Clearly it's cut throat and getting tougher each year.

profitius

sleepyman wrote: »

How many of the above though will make it?Deasy looks good, maybe a bit one-paced but has good hands & an eye for the gap.Obviously Earls & Hurley are on full contracts, Barnes was offered a contract when the tigers came sniffing I think.
But out of the remaining players maybe just 3 or 4 will make it and the rest will play ail?
If you go through the academy over the last few years alot of the lads didn't make it.
It makes you wonder were they ever good enough & what selection criteria they use to get lads into the academy.
The likes of Conan Doyle & Murray Kinsella looked like lads that physically weren't big enough for the demands when they were in the academy.
Other players like Gerry Hurrley & Michael Essex just seemed to disappear off the radar.
Clearly it's cut throat and getting tougher each year.

Most of the players could make it. They won't all make it but they're all good players.

You're right about it getting harder to make it every year. Thats good for the provinces and Irish rugby.

I reckon it could be the best ever generation of Irish players coming through now. Those aged under 22/23 and I also reckon the quality will even improve further in the next few years.

Kilkenny dominate Hurling now because they put alot of effort into developing players while other counties neglected theirs. It's good to see the rugby teams doing this and it'll have long term benefits.

bamboozle

profitius wrote: »

Most of the players could make it. They won't all make it but they're all good players.

You're right about it getting harder to make it every year. Thats good for the provinces and Irish rugby.

I reckon it could be the best ever generation of Irish players coming through now. Those aged under 22/23 and I also reckon the quality will even improve further in the next few years.

Kilkenny dominate Hurling now because they put alot of effort into developing players while other counties neglected theirs. It's good to see the rugby teams doing this and it'll have long term benefits.

this is why i think its vital that connacht is supported properly by the IRFU as we'll see more and more ex academy players from munster and leinster ending up there after their contracts are up.

wouldnt be suprised to see O'Malley, O'Donoghue or tonetti all at connacht next season.

profitius

bamboozle wrote: »

this is why i think its vital that connacht is supported properly by the IRFU as we'll see more and more ex academy players from munster and leinster ending up there after their contracts are up.

wouldnt be suprised to see O'Malley, O'Donoghue or tonetti all at connacht next season.

It could also be the reason why the IRFU want to restructure Connacht. There's alot of players who can't get games for Munster and Leinster especially who would and should be in the Connacht squad. Also in the AIB league there are plenty of players who might have missed their oppertunity with the provinces who would add to Connachts squad.

The hammering of Connacht by Llanelli wouldn't have happened if playing resources were organised a bit better.

lawrencesummers

2040 wrote: »

At the start of the season Warwick and Jones were playing well and ROG was beyond appalling. That's neither here nor there though.

I know you have to give players time and that you can't immediately drop them. But it's almost like the same logic doesn't apply to younger players. They need to make an instant impression to break through it seems.

It just annoys me that there's 23/24/25 year olds in the setup who might get one or two magner's league games off the bench per season.

jones went out injuried, he was getting game time before a nasty injury and he will get game time when he returns.

Warwick had some time at 10 and didnt set the world on fire, and i have always said that there was only one aspect of o'garas game that was bad at the start of the season, his place kicking was pure ****e, and with the game last weekend excluded he has gotten that back in order, this sunday he wont be missing kicks like he did last weekend

JustinDee

profitius wrote: »

It could also be the reason why the IRFU want to restructure Connacht

The feasability review that is undergoing right now was initiated at Connacht's request.

Maaa!

One rumour was that the foreign players contracts would not be renewed after the year and so Connacht could replace them with academy players from Leinster and Munster. This would help to bring these guys through by giving them more game time and would help to keep them in Ireland. The idea of C being a 'feeder' province for L and M has been around for a long time. Its unfair on C in a way in that these guys might only stay around for a year or two before returning to their native province but I believe its for the best for Irl. Inc. and C. We all want to see future Ireland teams having top quality players and having a real shot at a WC.
L fan but going to C match Friday. Hope they kick Toulon all over the park (forecast: wet) and go on to win the trophy. Bradley deserves it before he goes. Fine win against us last week too. Just shows what they are capable of (don't mean that to sound patronising to C fans ).

profitius

I reckon if Connacht are short of cash they might do a sort of loan system with the fringe players in the other provinces. It'll give the players experiance and the other provinces can pay part of the players wages in return. Just guessing but that sounds good to me.

McFadden, O'Malley, Donnacha Ryan are a few names who could have went to Connacht over the past few years and gotten valuable experiance.

Podge_irl

profitius wrote: »

McFadden, O'Malley, Donnacha Ryan are a few names who could have went to Connacht over the past few years and gotten valuable experiance.

It's a bit of a tricky issue. McFadden certainly could have gone to Connacht two or three seasons ago, but he's played 15 games for Leinster this season and is a fairly integral part of the squad at this point. Connacht need slightly more than players who just can't get into the other three provinces, mostly very young players - it's why the likes of the purported Quinlan move would have been so helpful had it not fallen through.

JustinDee

Maaa! wrote: »

One rumour was that the foreign players contracts would not be renewed after the year and so Connacht could replace them with academy players from Leinster and Munster

Contracts are put on one year pending the conclusions of the economic review.
The reason for this is simply that should conclusions on contracts would be irrelevant otherwise ie. No use the review, for example, recommending a shorter contract on a player or whomever if they've already signed for three or four years.
Thats all there is to it really.

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

Contracts are put on one year pending the conclusions of the economic review.
The reason for this is simply that should conclusions on contracts would be irrelevant otherwise ie. No use the review, for example, recommending a shorter contract on a player or whomever if they've already signed for three or four years.
Thats all there is to it really.

Would ya ever go away and stop ruining perfectly good rumours with facts.