Ireland is going to be bought out by another country

Sandvich

All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

RichardAnd

I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

The there is our ability to do things right, or the lack of. Take music for example; we have a few exceptional musicians in Ireland but on a whole, the Americans, Germans, French, English, south Americans, etc all have us beat in terms of general skill. It's like we lack the ability to apply ourselves to something that takes time and patience to master.

So yeah, you're absolutely correct, there is something in the water here all right. Or maybe it's in the beer...

Sandvich

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

The there is our ability to do things right, or the lack of. Take music for example; we have a few exceptional musicians in Ireland but on a whole, the Americans, Germans, French, English, south Americans, etc all have us beat in terms of general skill. It's like we lack the ability to apply ourselves to something that takes time and patience to master.

So yeah, you're absolutely correct, there is something in the water here all right. Or maybe it's in the beer...

It makes me depressed. I'm the kind of person who needs to be in a socially progressive environment. Should I leave the country? Or should I stay and try to do something about it? Or should I leave and still try to do something about it when I come back to visit the parents? Who knows.

Ireland is not a positive environment for me. Unfortunately due to issues of mental illness, jumping ship is not so possible for me right now. I don't know what to do. The only place I could realistically go is the UK, while better, is not much better. Sweden would be the next choice, but I really should learn swedish so I don't be a burden, and it could be too much of a culture shock(though that could be a good thing), plus I'd need to find a job abroad, which would be difficult for me.

RichardAnd

Sandvich wrote: »

It makes me depressed. I'm the kind of person who needs to be in a socially progressive environment. Should I leave the country? Or should I stay and try to do something about it? Or should I leave and still try to do something about it when I come back to visit the parents? Who knows.

Ireland is not a positive environment for me. Unfortunately due to issues of mental illness, jumping ship is not so possible for me right now. I don't know what to do. The only place I could realistically go is the UK, while better, is not much better. Sweden would be the next choice, but I really should learn swedish so I don't be a burden, and it could be too much of a culture shock(though that could be a good thing), plus I'd need to find a job abroad, which would be difficult for me.

If anything, it sounds like you're thinking too much about it. My trick it to let it go over my head. Sure, the insanity of some things get to me but mostly, I ignore it. Remember, "suffer not the company of fools"

Euro_Kraut

Hi OP.

Sounds like you are having a difficult time of it at the moment. It certainly is very demoralizing to be Irish at the moment. The foundations of our society have been exposed as rotting wood decking. The church, Fianna Fail, the newspapers, the banks, the trade unions were once the institutions that supposedly protected and nurtured our nation. Today we know that we were lied to on a grand scale. Part of our anger stems from our niavty over the past 50+ years. How did we not see this? How could we have been so delusional?

In once sense it is comparable to the societal shock that accompanied the fall of the Berlin Wall for the East Germans. Suddenly they realized that their society was a shame. Their leaders were corrupt and self interested, their neighbors, friend and family were Stasi spies, their beloved international athletes doped and the subject of ridicule in the rest of the world.

Ireland's 'Wende' has been more gradual, but perhaps no less traumatic. It is a type of national bereavement. First come denial (remember Bertia Ahern et al telling us we were taking ourselves in to a recession), than comes anger, than acceptance.

Right now I reckon we are some where between phase 2 and 3. The residual anger exists but an acceptance of what really happened is dawning.

As regards your own situation. It seems to me that you would like to emigrate but for one reason or another cannot. Therefore your dream scenario is that Ireland gets taken over by another county. That way you get your 'new county buzz' without having to leave. I can empathize with that. I have lived abroad on more than one occasion and often wished I could just take all the Irish people and plonk them in Germany. So I would be surrounded by all the wit and craic of the Irish but with a German train system.

Its not going to happen for either of us though. In the meantime my advice is keep to dreaming. It helps sustain us. Read up and find out as much as you can about other countries. You mentioned Sweden. Have a look online for English speaking jobs. See what the rents are like. Perhaps consider and evening class in an EU language? Maybe even meeting up with some non Irish people on a regular basis for a chat might be helpful.

Ultimately, you or me can't 'save' Ireland by ourselves. The best thing you can do right now is do what is best for yourself.

If you would like to have a chat about things, PM me

ei.sdraob

Its ok firstly we are "buying" Greece to the tune of 450 million

Maybe they could give us a nice Island in Mediterranean we can relocate to and sell this dreary rock to Chinese or something, Eire Nua has a nice ring to it

hiorta

Ah, the first signs of maturity - beginning to recognise and take responsibity for yourselves!
I posed a point some time ago 'was there a subtle encouragement to take the financial plunge and could it be sourced?' but it went unnoticed. If it were so, answers as to the 'who' might be interesting and revealing, but the 'why' of it is available in any mirror.
Undoubtedly Ireland is now 'owned' - or the debt on physical Ireland is - which raises the question of 'who' once more but now also 'whose money was used.'

But Ireland is as free as the minds of its people are and they are currently bogged down in material matters. The younger generation can maybe see more clearly, but what has been left to them?

Irish and Proud

Sandvich wrote: »

All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

...except that hopefully, it would see the end of multiple pensions for TDs etc and overpaid high-end civil servants.

Sandvich wrote: »

The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

no mate...

...The wrong Irish people!

Sandvich wrote: »

Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

Last sentence: SPOT ON!!!

...too much of I'm all right Jack! Many people here seem to have a small town attitude to things - like "if anyone steps above their station, we'll knock them down a peg or two" or "that's all I know". Maybe these are the people who should emigrate and settle in the deep country of the US (the real "small town"). As for the cocky lot, may a bit of time travel to ancient ROME would be best - of course, Rome would last forever! :rolleyes: As for the "Nest" mentality, it's what we (on the infrastructure forum) call NIMBYism - "Not in my back yard!" - the greatest pain in the ass for anyone trying to get any bit of meaningful infrastructure done.

Sandvich wrote: »

Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

The gold circle - that's what we get when there's so much apathy around - it leaves a giant vacuum of power. Well I'm planning to go very hard on anyone talking down Ireland and quoting other great and wonderful countries like Germany. If these people had their hearts in Ireland, then we probably would not be in such a bad state now as there would have been a much better ethos of responsibility.

Well I'm going to start suggesting that the people who think so little of the country leave Ireland and go to these other wonderful places - the more people (proper Irish citizens) that do the same, the more such be-grudgers would feel unwelcome here which might be quite effective (over time) as giving a good kick in the ass!

As for the cowboys like the bankers who ran this country into the ground, they should be imprisoned in a military style bootcamp and forced into hard labour as long as they are physically fit to work. Of course, all their assets would be seized by the state.

Sandvich wrote: »

While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

I agree with you point on mentality, but not on methodology. Those of us (like you and me) should be the ones who take control and decide the future path of this country. Afterall where there is apathy and systemic failure, there is a vacuum to be filled - we, the proper Irish (not the be-grudgers, established politicians or cowboys), should be the ones to fill it. If anyone in the state cannot be bothered to part-take in the decision making process, then the decisions should be made for them - simple!

The first thing I would suggest is that a new party is formed with a clear initial focus on political reform - reduction of bloated salaries and scrapping of multiple pensions. Also, most TDs should face limits of just two terms or 10 years in office - we need to stop career politics.

Beyond that, we need to kick-ass the economy!

Eliot Rosewater

I've become a bit restless in Ireland myself, but I imagine it's for different reasons to Sandvich.

I'm a student in UCC. Ye might be familiar with the recent controversy down here whereby the college tried to introduce a €65 conferring fee. The students union started protesting in the media and self-righteously marching around campus about how the college aren't entitled to charge them money, etc etc.

Obviously a conferring fee is undesirable, but I saw this issue within the wider context of third level fees as a whole. Students point blank refuse to pay fees, citing rights they have and throwing out words like "profiteering". Whatever about their real motives, I see the fees system in this country severely holding the universities back. When I (hopefully) emigrate after my degree, selling UCC to prospective employers and universities will be very hard: the college still languishes down near 300 in the international rankings. But it won't improve without more funding, and while students continue to prioritize short term financial gain, Irish degrees will still be extremely weak internationally.

I think this is representative of the Irish attitude as a whole. People aren't willing to give up the benefits they feel entitled to. It always comes down to their short term gain over the long term prospects of Ireland as a country to make a living in. Because of this reluctance to accept spending cuts, the next government will have to raise taxes and only de-stimulate the economy more.

Meanwhile, people like me who are very determined are left with a state and a culture that offers us nothing. Irish universities are only good, not great. There is no real culture of entrepreneurship, and there are so many regulations and taxes as it stands that it isn't going to grow. And all the while people seem willing to be just babysat by the government rather than making something of their own lives.

RichardAnd

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I've become a bit restless in Ireland myself, but I imagine it's for different reasons to Sandvich.

I'm a student in UCC. Ye might be familiar with the recent controversy down here whereby the college tried to introduce a €65 conferring fee. The students union started protesting in the media and self-righteously marching around campus about how the college aren't entitled to charge them money, etc etc.

Obviously a conferring fee is undesirable, but I saw this issue within the wider context of third level fees as a whole. Students point blank refuse to pay fees, citing rights they have and throwing out words like "profiteering". Whatever about their real motives, I see the fees system in this country severely holding the universities back. When I (hopefully) emigrate after my degree, selling UCC to prospective employers and universities will be very hard: the college still languishes down near 300 in the international rankings. But it won't improve without more funding, and while students continue to prioritize short term financial gain, Irish degrees will still be extremely weak internationally.

I think this is representative of the Irish attitude as a whole. People aren't willing to give up the benefits they feel entitled to. It always comes down to their short term gain over the long term prospects of Ireland as a country to make a living in. Because of this reluctance to accept spending cuts, the next government will have to raise taxes and only de-stimulate the economy more.

Meanwhile, people like me who are very determined are left with a state and a culture that offers us nothing. Irish universities are only good, not great. There is no real culture of entrepreneurship, and there are so many regulations and taxes as it stands that it isn't going to grow. And all the while people seem willing to be just babysat by the government rather than making something of their own lives.

Anyone discussing fees with students should be prepared for an uphill struggle of obtuse questions and elusive answers. I made the utter mistake of getting myself involved with 4 "trinners" (apparently what Trinity College is not being refereed to...I am out of touch for 23 :rolleyes:) students in a discussion about college fees in general. I use the word discussion loosely, a more accurate way to describe it would be me being verbally abused.

I am in favour of fees returning in some shape or form as in my opinion, it would allow the stink put that is the CAO system to be dismantled, would stop wasters going to college and would purge universitities of stupid courses like communications such and such. But they retorted with the usual right to education crap, calling me a fascist etc.

I'll not rant but I just think the putrefying attitude of students in general to be a clear sign of the bigger problem in this country. This sense of entitlement and greed has got to to weaned out of people and replaced realism and honesty. But if arguing with four students that stank of beer is an uphill struggle, then fixing this problem would be traversing an overhang with one hand.

Sandvich

I am in favour of fees returning in some shape or form as in my opinion, it would allow the stink put that is the CAO system to be dismantled, would stop wasters going to college and would purge universitities of stupid courses like communications such and such.

It'd stop people on the annoying mid point between qualifying for grants and actually having enough money going to college. That'd be the main effect. Given it's the parents paying - they still want their waster kids to go to college.

I really do think you're a bit out of touch if you hadn't considered things like this. College is full of wasters but would it be better to just leave them completely untrained? I knew a lot of wasters who still graduated.

RichardAnd

Sandvich wrote: »

It'd stop people on the annoying mid point between qualifying for grants and actually having enough money going to college. That'd be the main effect. Given it's the parents paying - they still want their waster kids to go to college.

I really do think you're a bit out of touch if you hadn't considered things like this. College is full of wasters but would it be better to just leave them completely untrained? I knew a lot of wasters who still graduated.

Yes I do. Wasters that graduate are still wasters, just with degrees which, in their case, would probably be useless degrees anyway. Label me as out of touch if you will but I am in touch with the world enough to tell you that the cold reality of the world is that a lack of cash means no goods. If someone can't afford to go to college, then they can't afford to go to college. It's not fair but this is the way of the world.

Sandvich

RichardAnd wrote: »

Yes I do. Wasters that graduate are still wasters, just with degrees which, in their case, would probably be useless degrees anyway. Label me as out of touch if you will but I am in touch with the world enough to tell you that the cold reality of the world is that a lack of cash means no goods. If someone can't afford to go to college, then they can't afford to go to college. It's not fair but this is the way of the world.

Actually - no it isn't. It's the way of the world you're proposing.

Like most "hard knock life" aspects of life, it's something that only exists if people chose not to try and work around it.

There's nothing more pathetic in an argument when people use life not being fair as an excuse to make it more unfair.

ei.sdraob

@Sandvich

In the world you are proposing living

Someone else has to pay for this at the moment

in case you haven't noticed we are running a huge deficit and have to borrow at high rates, and then later repay this money + interest

Unless you leave the country or sponge of welfare, you and your children will be paying for above "discrepancy" for a long time

Enjoy :cool:

RichardAnd

Sandvich wrote: »

Actually - no it isn't. It's the way of the world you're proposing.

Like most "hard knock life" aspects of life, it's something that only exists if people chose not to try and work around it.

There's nothing more pathetic in an argument when people use life not being fair as an excuse to make it more unfair.

and you're calling me out of touch? As ei.sdraob was kind enough to point out, money doesn't grow on trees. Are you one of those people who think the government are cutting welfare to be evil? Life is never fair, the only thing we can hope for is to navigate the roads of life and hope we don't hit a pothole.

Eliot Rosewater

Sandvich wrote: »

It'd stop people on the annoying mid point between qualifying for grants and actually having enough money going to college.

That's a cultural problem in Ireland. The more welfare schemes you introduce, the more the people rely on the government. So instead of saving for their child's education, most parents just rely on the state giving it for free. People don't save for the rough times either; they don't make any preparation for a period out of work, relying on the government again. It's a moral hazard issue.

Because of this the government can't rationalize spending without being heckled and decried. However if people minded their own business, and manged themselves, things would be a lot easier in this regard.

Sandvich wrote: »

I knew a lot of wasters who still graduated.

And that's a piss poor reflection on Irish universities. If you don't make 50% of your classes there should be no chance for you to pass. This could be done via compulsory attendance or, perhaps preferably, making the course hard enough that one needs to give it full-time attention.

AARRRRGH

Sandvich wrote: »

It makes me depressed. I'm the kind of person who needs to be in a socially progressive environment. Should I leave the country? Or should I stay and try to do something about it? Or should I leave and still try to do something about it when I come back to visit the parents? Who knows.

Ireland is not a positive environment for me. Unfortunately due to issues of mental illness, jumping ship is not so possible for me right now. I don't know what to do. The only place I could realistically go is the UK, while better, is not much better. Sweden would be the next choice, but I really should learn swedish so I don't be a burden, and it could be too much of a culture shock(though that could be a good thing), plus I'd need to find a job abroad, which would be difficult for me.

What would you do about?
or rather,
What can YOU do about it other than post on boards complaining?

The best thing to do is do what is right for YOU. Go and make a life for yourself where you will be happy, if its not working out here. No point staying here if you can do better elsewhere.

And remember. Its a cycle, and we arent as badly off as people make out. A bit of world travel will make that very apparent.

population

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

.

I live in Italy and though they do not have the drinking culture and all the awful ****e attatched to it that we have, I believe the OP is wrestling with the fact that Ireland is a basketcase country, and to be perfectly honest politically and economically, Italy is another one.

I do love Italy, but do not kid yourself. It has got some serious serious problems.

RichardAnd

population wrote: »

I live in Italy and though they do not have the drinking culture and all the awful ****e attatched to it that we have, I believe the OP is wrestling with the fact that Ireland is a basketcase country, and to be perfectly honest politically and economically, Italy is another one.

I do love Italy, but do not kid yourself. It has got some serious serious problems.

Well you'd know better than me cause you live there but the whole country just seems more settled and calm. People don't seem nearly as greedy or as prone to whining as the Irish.

But I get you, I do know that Italy has a loopy system of governance and they economics are probably the same but hey, at least the women over there are some of the finest in the world

AARRRRGH

RichardAnd wrote: »

Well you'd know better than me cause you live there but the whole country just seems more settled and calm. People don't seem nearly as greedy or as prone to whining as the Irish.

But I get you, I do know that Italy has a loopy system of governance and they economics are probably the same but hey, at least the women over there are some of the finest in the world

Maybe you should read Italian message boards
Google translate.
And the women are fine and then when they hit 30 they are like whales. So go for the young wans.

RichardAnd

AARRRRGH wrote: »

Maybe you should read Italian message boards
Google translate.
And the women are fine and then when they hit 30 they are like whales. So go for the young wans.

Ah well, nothing lasts forever. At least they generally make better cooks.

hinault

Sandvich wrote: »

All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

I have familial ties to Germany.
I have been to Germany many times.

I can tell you with 100% certainty, that this little nation of ours holds ZERO economic/political interest to German and/or Germany.

We're a small little island on the western seaboard.
No more.
No less.

Sandvich

That's a cultural problem in Ireland. The more welfare schemes you introduce, the more the people rely on the government. So instead of saving for their child's education, most parents just rely on the state giving it for free. People don't save for the rough times either; they don't make any preparation for a period out of work, relying on the government again. It's a moral hazard issue.

No. It's just a badly designed system; I'm tired of Libertarians using the flaws of Ireland's systems when there are others that set out to do something else and do it better. It's dishonest and every post is obviously trying to shovel some kind of Ayn Rand into things instead of thinking in more utilitarian terms.

As I said in the original post, it's nothing to do with any of this. It's to do with the inherently dodgy Irish mentality and how bad we are at organising everything.

"Welfare states"(Social Democracies) are sustainable if you have people competent enough to run them. Which is why it wouldn't be a bad idea getting in foreigners to sort us out, instead of a bunch of gowls like the IMF. I think that a lot of the economic right on this forum are more afraid of doing socialistic policies right than they are of IMF's hack and slash policies destroying the countries, which is very worrying.

I would hazard a guess that the people running the system may be even more important than the ideology behind it. There's a big battle between socialists and neo-liberals as to what ideology can best stop this from happening, and both are probably missing the point to some extent.

Sandvich

RichardAnd wrote: »

Well you'd know better than me cause you live there but the whole country just seems more settled and calm. People don't seem nearly as greedy or as prone to whining as the Irish.

But I get you, I do know that Italy has a loopy system of governance and they economics are probably the same but hey, at least the women over there are some of the finest in the world

Whining is fine. If enough people whine it becomes annoying for the people who don't like to hear people complaining. This is precisely why "whining" is a social stigma to begin with(you will find it all the time on particularly authoritarian online forums). The issue is the Irish people seem to "Mumble" about things rather than seriously complain in a loud and "obnoxious" tone.

Contrary to popular belief, serious complaint in of itself can be a force for change, as it puts pressure on the forces that be(unless you're a complete eejit like Mary Harney, she just needs to be chucked off a cliff or something). But "serious action" and "Irish people" don't seem to belong in the same sentence.

cson

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Unless you leave the country or sponge of welfare, you and your children will be paying for above "discrepancy" for a long time

Enjoy :cool:

That's exactly why I'd consider pissing off to somewhere like Cancun like yourself ei, I have issues with paying for someone elses mistakes for the rest of my life.

AARRRRGH

cson wrote: »

That's exactly why I'd consider pissing off to somewhere like Cancun like yourself ei, I have issues with paying for someone elses mistakes for the rest of my life.

Very true. If Ireland becomes a miserable place to live, which it isnt by a long way. I too will pack my bags and go somewhere I can make a better living.

Sandvich

RichardAnd wrote: »

and you're calling me out of touch? As ei.sdraob was kind enough to point out, money doesn't grow on trees. Are you one of those people who think the government are cutting welfare to be evil? Life is never fair, the only thing we can hope for is to navigate the roads of life and hope we don't hit a pothole.

The same government that poured 4 billion into AngloIrish, which would be more than enough to go towards most proposed welfare cuts?

Come off it. Times like this when things go arse ways is when people love to look "realistic" and "Mature" when in reality they're proposing solutions that either have little long term merit or just flat out don't take into account anything other than "we have no money". Evidentally, we have the ability to spend some money, it's just what we do with it.

johnnyskeleton

How much would we get if we changed the name from the "Republic of Ireland" to the "Coca-Cola Republic of Ireland"?

Eliot Rosewater

Sandvich wrote: »

It's dishonest and every post is obviously trying to shovel some kind of Ayn Rand into things instead of thinking in more utilitarian terms.

If you're going to try and stereotype my position so then I'll be wasting my time talking with you. I haven't suggested any kind of "Ayn Randism" on this thread; all I've suggested is that the current welfare state has created a situation where people no longer want to do things for themselves, and that this is damaging the prospects of this country. Maybe you'd like to address that point, rather than trying to discredit the person making it.

RichardAnd

Sandvich wrote: »

The same government that poured 4 billion into AngloIrish, which would be more than enough to go towards most proposed welfare cuts?

Come off it. Times like this when things go arse ways is when people love to look "realistic" and "Mature" when in reality they're proposing solutions that either have little long term merit or just flat out don't take into account anything other than "we have no money". Evidentally, we have the ability to spend some money, it's just what we do with it.

If I had a euro for every time someone has made the "they have the money for the bankers" argument then I could take the rest of the year off work. We didn't have the 4 billion we gave to Anglo or even the rest of the NAMA fund, we borrowed it. And seeing as you seem to have adopted an agenda of labelling me, you seem to be utterly ignorant of where money comes from.

And what are you on about saying that when the s**t hits the fan, people try to act mature? What would you rather, we all just whine over a pint about the bad bankers and call Joe Duffy to complain about the civil service worker living next door still having a job?

NAMA is a one time deal (or at least, I hope to God it is), it cost a fortune but it actually isn't the biggest problem; that would be the deficit. We're spending too much each year because we're still supporting a Celtic Tiger system of welfare which, as above posters have pointed out, actually encourages the iffy Irish attitude that inspired you to start this post.

keithclancy

RichardAnd wrote: »

I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

The there is our ability to do things right, or the lack of. Take music for example; we have a few exceptional musicians in Ireland but on a whole, the Americans, Germans, French, English, south Americans, etc all have us beat in terms of general skill. It's like we lack the ability to apply ourselves to something that takes time and patience to master.

So yeah, you're absolutely correct, there is something in the water here all right. Or maybe it's in the beer...

+1

Everytime I go home to visit I can't get over the state of people in the Evenings, women pis*ing on the streets, puking, fights, falling all over the place.

I was called something rather nasty for drinking Paulaner, basically because it was in a tall glass, cloudy and foreign looking.

I'd NEVER move back .. the place is a sinking ship in terms of quality of life.

Its like a reverse culture shock for me at this stage.
i.e. you get to Amsterdam, the train is on time, you can travel from there to Paris, Berlin etc all by train.

You fly into Dublin ... you can get the Aircoach.. fantastic.

hinault

RichardAnd wrote: »

If I had a euro for every time someone has made the "they have the money for the bankers" argument then I could take the rest of the year off work. We didn't have the 4 billion we gave to Anglo or even the rest of the NAMA fund, we borrowed it. And seeing as you seem to have adopted an agenda of labelling me, you seem to be utterly ignorant of where money comes from.

And what are you on about saying that when the s**t hits the fan, people try to act mature? What would you rather, we all just whine over a pint about the bad bankers and call Joe Duffy to complain about the civil service worker living next door still having a job?

NAMA is a one time deal (or at least, I hope to God it is), it cost a fortune but it actually isn't the biggest problem; that would be the deficit. We're spending too much each year because we're still supporting a Celtic Tiger system of welfare which, as above posters have pointed out, actually encourages the iffy Irish attitude that inspired you to start this post.

I hear what you're saying but with respect I disagree.

The bank situation and the fiscal/budget deficit situation are of equal importance and are in fact linked on several levels.

In simple terms, if Ireland is a human body, then the banking system is the heart and lungs of that body.
If the heart and lungs are not working (credit), then the entire body cannot possibly work.

In order to start tackling the deficit, we need to generate sustainable economic activity.
A working banking system which provides liquidity will kickstart economic activity.

To reduce the deficit, we need economic activity to commence.
The longer economic activity is in stasis, the longer it will take to tackle this deficit.
On the other side of the equation, we need to try to reduce govt expenditure.

In a time when we actually need an economic stimulus from govt, our coffers are being depleted to recapitalise two banks which are not crucial to economic activity (anglo, nationwide).
The actual cost of this recapitalisation and the opportunity costs recapitalisation is killing this economy.

maninasia

keithclancy wrote: »

+1

Everytime I go home to visit I can't get over the state of people in the Evenings, women pis*ing on the streets, puking, fights, falling all over the place.

I was called something rather nasty for drinking Paulaner, basically because it was in a tall glass, cloudy and foreign looking.

I'd NEVER move back .. the place is a sinking ship in terms of quality of life.

Its like a reverse culture shock for me at this stage.
i.e. you get to Amsterdam, the train is on time, you can travel from there to Paris, Berlin etc all by train.

You fly into Dublin ... you can get the Aircoach.. fantastic.

This is what gets me aswell. A general air of malevolence on weekends brought out by large quantities of alcohol. I wasn't in the country a couple of days last year but somebody wanted to fight me on the street, totally unprovoked. All of them drunk of course... the demon drink.

It's like the dark side of our national physche. Petty crime, vandalism, random street violence and insults. It's very very obvious when you come back from an extended stay overseas. You have the craic in the pubs but the streets are nasty places to be. The alchohol depresses people and makes some agressive. The infrastructure in terms of roads has improved but the general feeling of safety hasn't. There's no visible police presence, no sense of security or civil well being.

I can take a high speed train (avg 250km/hr, top speed 300km/hr) where I am for 10 euros to the next city, business class for 20 euro.The city has an amazing first class subway system, very safe and efficent. I walk the streets at night and never feel the sligthest worry almost anywhere I go. There no hordes of drunken people piling around, no gangs of youths hanging on corners. You can buy beer in any convenience store much cheaper here and drink on the street if you want, no questions asked. There are no special rules preventing agressive behaviour, they just don't bother with it!
I have a health insurance card that I pay 15 euro/mth and covers almost all bills in any private or public facility with highly subsidised drugs included. Waiting lists are almost non existent. But when I tell people back home here I live they think I live in some backwater...

MaceFace

maninasia wrote: »

This is what gets me aswell. A general air of malevolence on weekends brought out by large quantities of alcohol. I wasn't in the country a couple of days last year but somebody wanted to fight me on the street, totally unprovoked. All of them drunk of course... the demon drink.

It's like the dark side of our national physche. Petty crime, vandalism, random street violence and insults. It's very very obvious when you come back from an extended stay overseas. You have the craic in the pubs but the streets are nasty places to be. The alchohol depresses people and makes some agressive. The infrastructure in terms of roads has improved but the general feeling of safety hasn't. There's no visible police presence, no sense of security or civil well being.

I can take a high speed train (avg 250km/hr, top speed 300km/hr) where I am for 10 euros to the next city, business class for 20 euro.The city has an amazing first class subway system, very safe and efficent. I walk the streets at night and never feel the sligthest worry almost anywhere I go. There no hordes of drunken people piling around, no gangs of youths hanging on corners. You can buy beer in any convenience store much cheaper here and drink on the street if you want, no questions asked. There are no special rules preventing agressive behaviour, they just don't bother with it!
I have a health insurance card that I pay 15 euro/mth and covers almost all bills in any private or public facility with highly subsidised drugs included. Waiting lists are almost non existent. But when I tell people back home here I live they think I live in some backwater...

Would you like to share with the rest of us where this Shangri La is?

maninasia

Taipei, Taiwan. It is no Shangri-la, it is old and run-down in parts, shiny and sparkling in others but it is a good place to live in general. I haven't even mentioned lots of other advantages like cheap and great food. What's most amazing is the country's forward motion to improve itself continuosly even with the bad pack of cards it was dealt with.
The same can be said for cities all over Korea, Japan and now China. One should visit the city of Shenzhen near HK to see the future.

It makes you cringe when you go back and visit Ireland though. A country living on borrowed money. As people used to tell me, come back , sure aren't we the greatest little country in the world.

SlabMurphy

Sandvich wrote: »

All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

To be honest OP I understand your apathy. But I think one of the main reasons for the cronyism, corruption and indifferent incompetance is because nothing short of Gombeen men founded a Gombeen state. Think of some of the founders of the state, Cosgrave, Griffith, O'Higgins etc. Grubby little shop and pub owners who had little to do with the fighting, were often little more than half hearted about Irish independence and building a proper country whose first priority was to be servile and obiedent to Britain.

Also I'd have to say that Haughey and his gang (Doherty, McSharry, Lenihan etc ) brought the country to a new level of corruption - with Ahern a junior memember of the gang. And supported by of course the cronies in RTE and Sir Tony O'Reilly's papers ofcourse.

But still and all OP, the indifference and acceptance of the public to all of this can be depressing.

SlabMurphy

keithclancy wrote: »

+1

Everytime I go home to visit I can't get over the state of people in the Evenings, women pis*ing on the streets, puking, fights, falling all over the place.

I was called something rather nasty for drinking Paulaner, basically because it was in a tall glass, cloudy and foreign looking.

I'd NEVER move back .. the place is a sinking ship in terms of quality of life.

Its like a reverse culture shock for me at this stage.
i.e. you get to Amsterdam, the train is on time, you can travel from there to Paris, Berlin etc all by train.

You fly into Dublin ... you can get the Aircoach.. fantastic.

" I'd NEVER move back .. " Well, that's the best think you stated yet.

As for the state of people, well since you mentioned Amsterdam, trying to avoid all the dog sh*t on the streets, junkies pushing drugs, not to mention a good chance of getting mugged and seeing the odd bar fight :rolleyes:, I take it you've never been to Amsterdam ?

Ofcourse you'd never see say, drunk soccer supporters in places like London, Copehagen, Hamburg on a spree for the night and getting invovled in the odd melee or peeing on the street etc, :rolleyes:

In all fairness it's not that bad here in Eire, I'm 29, don't drink but go out every weekend in Cork City, spent the last 12 months in Galway and also lived in Dublin a few years back. All this talk of people fighting everywhere and women p1ssing on the street, come on it's not that frequent a sight.

Reading this thread would depress the arse off you, lighten up folks

ItisintheSTARS

Sandvich wrote: »

All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

Yes you are right .There seems to be need to make excuses for 'negative people',but dismiss 'positive ones'. A lot of jealousy too.

ItisintheSTARS

keithclancy wrote: »

+1

Everytime I go home to visit I can't get over the state of people in the Evenings, women pis*ing on the streets, puking, fights, falling all over the place.

I was called something rather nasty for drinking Paulaner, basically because it was in a tall glass, cloudy and foreign looking.

I'd NEVER move back .. the place is a sinking ship in terms of quality of life.

Its like a reverse culture shock for me at this stage.
i.e. you get to Amsterdam, the train is on time, you can travel from there to Paris, Berlin etc all by train.

You fly into Dublin ... you can get the Aircoach.. fantastic.

Sorry ,but when they are not pucking up [I agree drink is a problem,
and the attitudes to escapism] , give me the Irish company, any time .
The Dutch are boring ,and unimaginative,and selfish, if pragmatic in their
Politics.

ItisintheSTARS

Sandvich wrote: »

All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

All countries in Europe save Ireland have the generation which has most energy ,but has gained wisdom and knowledge,and that is the 50 /70 age group .
Ireland has a serious deficit here.
The average age is 35 /36 years,and this is far too young to 'carry 'a country.
There is a sadness too ,which lingers with the loss of so many ,and the feeling of oppression mixed with a bad attitude of West Brits ,NO CULTURE
people I call them, for true culture comes from the heart,and they
are copiers of the heartless culture accross the way .Heart culture is authentic ,
as in Italy, France etc ,but instead you have 'coronation street' and garbage like that .
You have monuments like the big sphere,where as in these countries people whom they admire ,fought for their country are admired ,the culture of the people [the authentic one] is encouraged.
Phoney Brits in the goverment,and R T. E .have ruined Ireland ,and I have no problem in saying I totally despise them,and would put all of them in the stocks .
I suggested a 'year of culture' ,mainly concentrating on the 'diaspora',but covering
all of the past and present higher /Irish culture,modern etc.,
[No American or English trash allowed] on politics .ie,but received little reaction.

The idea would be to get all involved ,and inviting those of culture abroad to participate. A healing and positive way to highlight the best of Ireland ,but concentrated into one year to focus minds.
Glasgow changed radically during the 2 years ,of the garden festival and the year of culture into a cohesive cultured city because every one was involved .
There are Irish abroad who love Ireland, and have the means to donate ,and participate,give them a chance to do so.
Some group needs to start the ball rolling,may be you could .

dromdrom

RoverJames wrote: »

In all fairness it's not that bad here in Eire, I'm 29, don't drink but go out every weekend in Cork City, spent the last 12 months in Galway and also lived in Dublin a few years back. All this talk of people fighting everywhere and women p1ssing on the street, come on it's not that frequent a sight.

Reading this thread would depress the arse off you, lighten up folks

Very good post, this whole thread is reading like one big Daily Mail coloum, yes as a country we have issues, but in general I would put the quality of life in Ireland as quite good , at the moment we are in a severe resscession which is something that all countries will go through, however taking a long run view I reckon the quality of life prospects for the average person in this country will be higher than most other countries, a lot of people here have a grass is greener approach, everyone reckons that somewhere else has got it better but everywhere is what you make it , if you leave inner city dublin and go to live in Tuscany you might be of the opinion that Italians have it better, however if you left Cork to go live in Naples you might be of a very different opinion.

maninasia

Another thing about Irish, very sensitive to criticism, especially of Irish people who lived overseas.

Ireland's a good spot, lots of nice, humourous people, good environment, fairly good institutions. But it's not safe, frequently randomly violent and Irish people remaining in Ireland are often lazy, smug and arrogant due to the cosseted nature of the socialist state, the easy money that came in from EU and US for a while.

The continentals are very interested in other cultures, I like that about them. They also like a good protest every now and then, they are not afraid to go out and throw rocks at the government when needed. Many young Irish are in huge debt being sucked into the boom, saw the banks and politicians get off lightly, and they cannot even put a decent protest together, like cows or something. It's easy to control fattened cows, they are slow thinking and moving.

There are so many young Irish emigrating again due to the usual casino economy and it's just like 'so what', tough luck. I'm alright Jack.
Then there's the complacency 'we are in a severe recession just like all countries go through'. That makes it okay? As if it wasn't caused by massive corruption in politics and business in Ireland.

So yes Ireland has its good points, but as usual when you mention something the only answer you get is 'sure we have problems but we are better than X,Y,Z place'.

MaceFace

maninasia wrote: »

Another thing about Irish, very sensitive to criticism, especially of Irish people who lived overseas.

Ireland's a good spot, lots of nice, humourous people, good environment, fairly good institutions. But it's not safe, frequently randomly violent and Irish people remaining in Ireland are often lazy, smug and arrogant due to the cosseted nature of the socialist state, the easy money that came in from EU and US for a while.

The continentals are very interested in other cultures, I like that about them. They also like a good protest every now and then, they are not afraid to go out and throw rocks at the government when needed. Many young Irish are in huge debt being sucked into the boom, saw the banks and politicians get off lightly, and they cannot even put a decent protest together, like cows or something. It's easy to control fattened cows, they are slow thinking and moving.

There are so many young Irish emigrating again due to the usual casino economy and it's just like 'so what', tough luck. I'm alright Jack.
Then there's the complacency 'we are in a severe recession just like all countries go through'. That makes it okay? As if it wasn't caused by massive corruption in politics and business in Ireland.

So yes Ireland has its good points, but as usual when you mention something the only answer you get is 'sure we have problems but we are better than X,Y,Z place'.

Of course we are open to criticism to people describing Ireland when they don't even live here. Same way if I was to start criticising the country you are living in, you would defend it. This is our home and we don't want outsiders slagging it off.

Honestly, I think you have been out of Ireland a bit too long. I spent time abroad myself and you do get a different feeling about the country from abroad, but you only hear the extremes as that is all people or the media would bother talking about. Sometimes you can take these extremes as been the norm.
I have travelled to over 40 countries around the world and not a single one is without problems. Not one.

The economy we have here in Ireland is not unique to this country. It is what the entire of the Western world is built upon as well as countries such as Japan and China.

I am not going to get in a p1ssing match about how good Ireland is compared to other countries but I do object to people who do not live here saying things that are either untrue or making out that things they read in newspapers are common place.

Ireland is definitely not a voilent place. Murders in this country are front page news and the resultant trials can grip the nation.
Most of the murders that happen are either crimes of passion or in the criminal community.

As for your comments about protesting and "throwing rocks at the government". What exactly will that achieve? They are doing just that in Greece to object to the harsh measures the government have brought in.
Do you think if we went in to O Connell street and burned out some cars and shops that it would make our debt disappear?
(maybe this shows that Ireland are not the voilent people you somehow think we are).

Maybe you should stick to what you know.

maninasia

There you go again, because I live outside Ireland I don't have a reason to criticise..bizarre. I visit the country often enough, have friends and family, grew up most of my life there, follow the media and stories. I AM 100% IRISH so go jump in a lake and grow a thicker skin while you are at it. You call me an outsider because I live outside Ireland...TYPICAL.

I have travelled in lived in lots of places too. I speak foreign languages, learned different cultural views. I KNOW every country has its own issues. You didn't read my post which tried to be fair and balanced. Ireland is a pretty good country but it's got a lot of room for improvement. It's also a little postage stamp of a place in relation to the world at large.

You just used exactly the same two arguments which I said people always use a lot of people living in Ireland... it's all very reactionary.
You are typical of a lot of Irish, all talk and no action. The banks can take money and politicians swindle but people take it without barely a peep. It's all patriotic talk but no b#$ls. The throwing rocks is a metaphor, people don't even protest and FF is still in power...amazing.

The economy is much much worse in Ireland than almost all Western countries. Canada is doing well, Australia is doing well. Holland, Denmark, Finland good industry, no economic collapse.Sweden, France all pretty much okay. Even the US is beginning to recover slightly. Germany and Switzerland going great guns as usual.

I grew up in Dublin, school is violent, the streets after pubs close are violent. Kids beat each other up all the time in school, nothing is done about it. Street crime was and is common, usually linked to drugs and alcohol. We drink the most in Europe or close to the most. That's not confined to Dublin. It occurs in every little town in the country. Always was, probably always will be. It's part of our nature. Go to Asia, there's no random violence there.

I have a right just like anybody to say what I want about Ireland, but I don't get a vote outside the country...surprise surprise.

MaceFace

maninasia wrote: »

There you go again, because I live outside Ireland I don't have a reason to criticise..bizarre. I visit the country often enough, have friends and family, grew up most of my life there, follow the media and stories. I AM 100% IRISH so go jump in a lake and grow a thicker skin while you are at it. You call me an outsider because I live outside Ireland...TYPICAL.

I never said you don't have a right to criticise, but you do have a responsibility to speak honestly about the country. You are an outsider, of course you are, unless of course you spend significant time in the country.
I will jump to a conclusion and say you spend no more than two weeks a year in Ireland, and your news from here comes from reading online newspapers or talking to friends and family back here.
That is very different than actually living here and experiencing the mundaneness of normal life. Unless you live in a place, you don't know what it is really like.

maninasia wrote: »

]
I have travelled in lived in lots of places too. I speak foreign languages, learned different cultural views. I KNOW every country has its own issues. You didn't read my post which tried to be fair and balanced. Ireland is a pretty good country but it's got a lot of room for improvement. It's also a little postage stamp of a place in relation to the world at large.

Maybe you should read your post again. Fair and balanced? No, you said some positive things only to go off on one about how crap it is. Your wording above is more accurate - we are neither that bad, nor that good in most areas, and while we do have our fair share of problems that are unique to Ireland, we do not suffer from the problems that other countries may have.

maninasia wrote: »

You just used exactly the same two arguments which I said people always use a lot of people living in Ireland... it's all very reactionary.

What? Because I responded to a post that I do not agree with it makes me a "reactionary". Maybe you should consider what boards.ie actually is. Do you expect me to read something I agree with and either not respond or even worse, agree with for fear of being reactionary?

maninasia wrote: »

You are typical of a lot of Irish, all talk and no action. The banks can take money and politicians swindle but people take it without barely a peep. It's all patriotic talk but no b#$ls. The throwing rocks is a metaphor, people don't even protest and FF is still in power...amazing.

Politicians swindle? Firstly, Ireland is one of the least corrupt countries in the world.
Secondly, the banks are not taking money. It is given to them to stop the banking system of Ireland collapsing. The truth is that the solution the government chose is not popular with many people, but the problem is that it is beyond the great majority of people in Ireland, or any other country to understand it.
I asked what you would hope to achieve from protesting?
This is the only reason there is not protests, because people don't see another alternative that they believe in. We were all too happy to get the money when it was there but are honest enough to know that it is not, and marching up and down O Connell Street on a Saturday afternoon is not going to change that. So, what do you hope to achieve beyond making yourself feel better?

maninasia wrote: »

The economy is much much worse in Ireland than almost all Western countries. Canada is doing well, Australia is doing well. Holland, Denmark, Finland good industry, no economic collapse.Sweden, France all pretty much okay. Even the US is beginning to recover slightly. Germany and Switzerland going great guns as usual.

I don't disagree there and the problem we faced is mainly down to the property bubble with almost every Irish person was happy to go along with. Sure even this weekend one of the British papers had a headlines saying "House prices up 10% - Good news."

maninasia wrote: »

I grew up in Dublin, school is violent, the streets after pubs close are violent. Kids beat each other up all the time in school, nothing is done about it.

Maybe you grew up in a bad area. These exist in every country in the world and to think that bullying is somehow unique or worse in Ireland than anywhere else is crazy.
As for violence after the pubs close? Maybe, but it is not as bad as people think. I have lived in Dublin my entire life and in the 20 years I have frequented the city center, only once did I get involved in a fight (of which no violence ensued). Maybe your bad experiences or your reading of the Hearald headlines about murder in the capital makes you think that it is more common than it actually is.

maninasia wrote: »

Street crime was and is common, usually linked to drugs and alcohol. We drink the most in Europe or close to the most. That's not confined to Dublin. It occurs in every little town in the country. Always was, probably always will be. It's part of our nature. Go to Asia, there's no random violence there.

I have a right just like anybody to say what I want about Ireland, but I don't get a vote outside the country...surprise surprise.

Hey, we live in a democracy and you can say what you like, but you do have a responsibility to give an accurate account of the situation in Ireland but unless you actually live somewhere, you don't know what it is like.

As for the vote - thats a different matter which I am happy to debate you about in a different thread (and explain why you should not neccessarily have it).

As for this off topic set of posts, this is the last I will say on it, but I do remind you to bear in mind that boards.ie is not the place you should be going to get an objective opinion on anything, especially this forum which tends to be more heated.

maninasia

maninasia wrote: »

Go to Asia, there's no random violence there.

I'd take random violance (which is very rare here) than economies built on child labour and sex tourism.

SlabMurphy

maninasia wrote: »

Another thing about Irish, very sensitive to criticism, especially of Irish people who lived overseas.

Ireland's a good spot, lots of nice, humourous people, good environment, fairly good institutions. But it's not safe, frequently randomly violent and Irish people remaining in Ireland are often lazy, smug and arrogant due to the cosseted nature of the socialist state, the easy money that came in from EU and US for a while.

The continentals are very interested in other cultures, I like that about them. They also like a good protest every now and then, they are not afraid to go out and throw rocks at the government when needed. Many young Irish are in huge debt being sucked into the boom, saw the banks and politicians get off lightly, and they cannot even put a decent protest together, like cows or something. It's easy to control fattened cows, they are slow thinking and moving.

There are so many young Irish emigrating again due to the usual casino economy and it's just like 'so what', tough luck. I'm alright Jack.
Then there's the complacency 'we are in a severe recession just like all countries go through'. That makes it okay? As if it wasn't caused by massive corruption in politics and business in Ireland.

So yes Ireland has its good points, but as usual when you mention something the only answer you get is 'sure we have problems but we are better than X,Y,Z place'.

Interesting post form a fella who seems to dislike violence " Ireland's a good spot, lots of nice, humourous people, good environment, fairly good institutions. But it's not safe, frequently randomly violent "

and then goes to post

" The continentals are very interested in other cultures, I like that about them. They also like a good protest every now and then, they are not afraid to go out and throw rocks at the government when needed. "

I think we've got yet another wannabe comedian here folks :rolleyes:

maninasia

The rocks comment is a bit of humour with some truth thrown in, the fact is you have to stir the sh%t up sometimes, otherwise you get railroaded.
Now young people in Ireland are going to get railroaded due to NAMA and be forced to emigrate. Older people won't protest because it's okay, the govt. have guaranteed their bank accounts and put a floor on property prices through NAMA. The social welfarites and public sector will be looked after too.
Well it's easy to take advantage of young people, they don't have any power. That's the reality, they are getting shafted. Bye bye the '10s' generation. (CAVEAT- everybody has a personal responsbility, we cannot always look to the government for solutions we find ourselves in).

As for Ireland being among the least corrupt in the world ...my answer look at Anglo, INB, Dublin Docklands and Irish Glass, Irish banking regulator, FAS, every planning authority in Ireland. How many people have gone to jail or currently being prosecuted? So if not corruption what was it? The government took on private developers debts from failed bets...put it on regular people's shoulders..now the creditors are calling on Greece and Ireland is sitting pretty in the firing line.

I haven't been away that long that I don't know what the country is like, that's ridiculous. I also go back infrequently enough to observe it in a kind of 'time-lapse' fashion, in some ways it can give you more insight of the changes over time than somebody who actually lives there everyday. The experience of living overseas also gives you a chance to contrast and compare different systems in a more neutral way, so being an 'outsider' as you term it doesn't mean you can't judge the situation objectively, it fact it should make you more objective if you take your sources of information from multiple angles, in some cases you see obvious better ways of doing things (like public transport, reducing alcohol consumption, better medical system, professional planning system) you see other issues that Ireland doesn't have (lack of welfare net, pollution control etc).

It's called PERSPECTIVE, more easily acheived from outside - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055896927

maninasia

RoverJames wrote: »

I'd take random violance (which is very rare here) than economies built on child labour and sex tourism.

Random violence is common in Ireland, some places more than others of course, especially prevalent among young males and on weekends, I'm sure everybody has a story to tell.

As for Asia..it is a wonderfully diverse, interesting and dynamic place, with many countries and economies already far in advance of Ireland
I have learned far more living and working here with these hard working and humble people than anywhere else I have been.

Notwithstanding the government's abuses of power the Chinese have done an amazing job in pulling 100 of millions out of desperate poverty, far in advance of what any Western government has done in Africa..but what would you care about reality. THose Asians..something fishy about them, they don't need our help...

DeVore

Its not like you can slip a 100 into your passport and get yourself out of whatever you have done here. Something that I have been present for in other countries and while it is apparently commonplace, it made my hairs stand on end.

Yes, corruption here is bad in places (planning anyone?) but you dont see cops blatantly taking a bribe like that (at least I havent...).

DeV.