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Ireland is going to be bought out by another country

  • 24-04-2010 12:41AM
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭


    All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

    The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

    Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

    Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

    While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

    But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

    Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

    Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

    The there is our ability to do things right, or the lack of. Take music for example; we have a few exceptional musicians in Ireland but on a whole, the Americans, Germans, French, English, south Americans, etc all have us beat in terms of general skill. It's like we lack the ability to apply ourselves to something that takes time and patience to master.

    So yeah, you're absolutely correct, there is something in the water here all right. Or maybe it's in the beer...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

    Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

    Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

    The there is our ability to do things right, or the lack of. Take music for example; we have a few exceptional musicians in Ireland but on a whole, the Americans, Germans, French, English, south Americans, etc all have us beat in terms of general skill. It's like we lack the ability to apply ourselves to something that takes time and patience to master.

    So yeah, you're absolutely correct, there is something in the water here all right. Or maybe it's in the beer...

    It makes me depressed. I'm the kind of person who needs to be in a socially progressive environment. Should I leave the country? Or should I stay and try to do something about it? Or should I leave and still try to do something about it when I come back to visit the parents? Who knows.

    Ireland is not a positive environment for me. Unfortunately due to issues of mental illness, jumping ship is not so possible for me right now. I don't know what to do. The only place I could realistically go is the UK, while better, is not much better. Sweden would be the next choice, but I really should learn swedish so I don't be a burden, and it could be too much of a culture shock(though that could be a good thing), plus I'd need to find a job abroad, which would be difficult for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Sandvich wrote: »
    It makes me depressed. I'm the kind of person who needs to be in a socially progressive environment. Should I leave the country? Or should I stay and try to do something about it? Or should I leave and still try to do something about it when I come back to visit the parents? Who knows.

    Ireland is not a positive environment for me. Unfortunately due to issues of mental illness, jumping ship is not so possible for me right now. I don't know what to do. The only place I could realistically go is the UK, while better, is not much better. Sweden would be the next choice, but I really should learn swedish so I don't be a burden, and it could be too much of a culture shock(though that could be a good thing), plus I'd need to find a job abroad, which would be difficult for me.


    If anything, it sounds like you're thinking too much about it. My trick it to let it go over my head. Sure, the insanity of some things get to me but mostly, I ignore it. Remember, "suffer not the company of fools"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭Euro_Kraut


    Hi OP.

    Sounds like you are having a difficult time of it at the moment. It certainly is very demoralizing to be Irish at the moment. The foundations of our society have been exposed as rotting wood decking. The church, Fianna Fail, the newspapers, the banks, the trade unions were once the institutions that supposedly protected and nurtured our nation. Today we know that we were lied to on a grand scale. Part of our anger stems from our niavty over the past 50+ years. How did we not see this? How could we have been so delusional?

    In once sense it is comparable to the societal shock that accompanied the fall of the Berlin Wall for the East Germans. Suddenly they realized that their society was a shame. Their leaders were corrupt and self interested, their neighbors, friend and family were Stasi spies, their beloved international athletes doped and the subject of ridicule in the rest of the world.

    Ireland's 'Wende' has been more gradual, but perhaps no less traumatic. It is a type of national bereavement. First come denial (remember Bertia Ahern et al telling us we were taking ourselves in to a recession), than comes anger, than acceptance.

    Right now I reckon we are some where between phase 2 and 3. The residual anger exists but an acceptance of what really happened is dawning.

    As regards your own situation. It seems to me that you would like to emigrate but for one reason or another cannot. Therefore your dream scenario is that Ireland gets taken over by another county. That way you get your 'new county buzz' without having to leave. I can empathize with that. I have lived abroad on more than one occasion and often wished I could just take all the Irish people and plonk them in Germany. So I would be surrounded by all the wit and craic of the Irish but with a German train system.

    Its not going to happen for either of us though. In the meantime my advice is keep to dreaming. It helps sustain us. Read up and find out as much as you can about other countries. You mentioned Sweden. Have a look online for English speaking jobs. See what the rents are like. Perhaps consider and evening class in an EU language? Maybe even meeting up with some non Irish people on a regular basis for a chat might be helpful.

    Ultimately, you or me can't 'save' Ireland by ourselves. The best thing you can do right now is do what is best for yourself.

    If you would like to have a chat about things, PM me :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Its ok firstly we are "buying" Greece to the tune of 450 million :D

    Maybe they could give us a nice Island in Mediterranean we can relocate to and sell this dreary rock to Chinese or something, Eire Nua has a nice ring to it


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭hiorta


    Ah, the first signs of maturity - beginning to recognise and take responsibity for yourselves!
    I posed a point some time ago 'was there a subtle encouragement to take the financial plunge and could it be sourced?' but it went unnoticed. If it were so, answers as to the 'who' might be interesting and revealing, but the 'why' of it is available in any mirror.
    Undoubtedly Ireland is now 'owned' - or the debt on physical Ireland is - which raises the question of 'who' once more but now also 'whose money was used.'

    But Ireland is as free as the minds of its people are and they are currently bogged down in material matters. The younger generation can maybe see more clearly, but what has been left to them?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭Irish and Proud


    Sandvich wrote: »
    All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

    ...except that hopefully, it would see the end of multiple pensions for TDs etc and overpaid high-end civil servants.
    Sandvich wrote: »
    The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

    no mate...

    ...The wrong Irish people!
    Sandvich wrote: »
    Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

    Last sentence: SPOT ON!!!

    ...too much of I'm all right Jack! Many people here seem to have a small town attitude to things - like "if anyone steps above their station, we'll knock them down a peg or two" or "that's all I know". Maybe these are the people who should emigrate and settle in the deep country of the US (the real "small town"). As for the cocky lot, may a bit of time travel to ancient ROME would be best - of course, Rome would last forever! :rolleyes: As for the "Nest" mentality, it's what we (on the infrastructure forum) call NIMBYism - "Not in my back yard!" - the greatest pain in the ass for anyone trying to get any bit of meaningful infrastructure done.
    Sandvich wrote: »
    Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

    The gold circle - that's what we get when there's so much apathy around - it leaves a giant vacuum of power. Well I'm planning to go very hard on anyone talking down Ireland and quoting other great and wonderful countries like Germany. If these people had their hearts in Ireland, then we probably would not be in such a bad state now as there would have been a much better ethos of responsibility.

    Well I'm going to start suggesting that the people who think so little of the country leave Ireland and go to these other wonderful places - the more people (proper Irish citizens) that do the same, the more such be-grudgers would feel unwelcome here which might be quite effective (over time) as giving a good kick in the ass!

    As for the cowboys like the bankers who ran this country into the ground, they should be imprisoned in a military style bootcamp and forced into hard labour as long as they are physically fit to work. Of course, all their assets would be seized by the state.
    Sandvich wrote: »
    While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

    But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

    I agree with you point on mentality, but not on methodology. Those of us (like you and me) should be the ones who take control and decide the future path of this country. Afterall where there is apathy and systemic failure, there is a vacuum to be filled - we, the proper Irish (not the be-grudgers, established politicians or cowboys), should be the ones to fill it. If anyone in the state cannot be bothered to part-take in the decision making process, then the decisions should be made for them - simple!

    The first thing I would suggest is that a new party is formed with a clear initial focus on political reform - reduction of bloated salaries and scrapping of multiple pensions. Also, most TDs should face limits of just two terms or 10 years in office - we need to stop career politics.

    Beyond that, we need to kick-ass the economy!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    I've become a bit restless in Ireland myself, but I imagine it's for different reasons to Sandvich.

    I'm a student in UCC. Ye might be familiar with the recent controversy down here whereby the college tried to introduce a €65 conferring fee. The students union started protesting in the media and self-righteously marching around campus about how the college aren't entitled to charge them money, etc etc.

    Obviously a conferring fee is undesirable, but I saw this issue within the wider context of third level fees as a whole. Students point blank refuse to pay fees, citing rights they have and throwing out words like "profiteering". Whatever about their real motives, I see the fees system in this country severely holding the universities back. When I (hopefully) emigrate after my degree, selling UCC to prospective employers and universities will be very hard: the college still languishes down near 300 in the international rankings. But it won't improve without more funding, and while students continue to prioritize short term financial gain, Irish degrees will still be extremely weak internationally.

    I think this is representative of the Irish attitude as a whole. People aren't willing to give up the benefits they feel entitled to. It always comes down to their short term gain over the long term prospects of Ireland as a country to make a living in. Because of this reluctance to accept spending cuts, the next government will have to raise taxes and only de-stimulate the economy more.

    Meanwhile, people like me who are very determined are left with a state and a culture that offers us nothing. Irish universities are only good, not great. There is no real culture of entrepreneurship, and there are so many regulations and taxes as it stands that it isn't going to grow. And all the while people seem willing to be just babysat by the government rather than making something of their own lives.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    I've become a bit restless in Ireland myself, but I imagine it's for different reasons to Sandvich.

    I'm a student in UCC. Ye might be familiar with the recent controversy down here whereby the college tried to introduce a €65 conferring fee. The students union started protesting in the media and self-righteously marching around campus about how the college aren't entitled to charge them money, etc etc.

    Obviously a conferring fee is undesirable, but I saw this issue within the wider context of third level fees as a whole. Students point blank refuse to pay fees, citing rights they have and throwing out words like "profiteering". Whatever about their real motives, I see the fees system in this country severely holding the universities back. When I (hopefully) emigrate after my degree, selling UCC to prospective employers and universities will be very hard: the college still languishes down near 300 in the international rankings. But it won't improve without more funding, and while students continue to prioritize short term financial gain, Irish degrees will still be extremely weak internationally.

    I think this is representative of the Irish attitude as a whole. People aren't willing to give up the benefits they feel entitled to. It always comes down to their short term gain over the long term prospects of Ireland as a country to make a living in. Because of this reluctance to accept spending cuts, the next government will have to raise taxes and only de-stimulate the economy more.

    Meanwhile, people like me who are very determined are left with a state and a culture that offers us nothing. Irish universities are only good, not great. There is no real culture of entrepreneurship, and there are so many regulations and taxes as it stands that it isn't going to grow. And all the while people seem willing to be just babysat by the government rather than making something of their own lives.


    Anyone discussing fees with students should be prepared for an uphill struggle of obtuse questions and elusive answers. I made the utter mistake of getting myself involved with 4 "trinners" (apparently what Trinity College is not being refereed to...I am out of touch for 23 :rolleyes:) students in a discussion about college fees in general. I use the word discussion loosely, a more accurate way to describe it would be me being verbally abused.

    I am in favour of fees returning in some shape or form as in my opinion, it would allow the stink put that is the CAO system to be dismantled, would stop wasters going to college and would purge universitities of stupid courses like communications such and such. But they retorted with the usual right to education crap, calling me a fascist etc.

    I'll not rant but I just think the putrefying attitude of students in general to be a clear sign of the bigger problem in this country. This sense of entitlement and greed has got to to weaned out of people and replaced realism and honesty. But if arguing with four students that stank of beer is an uphill struggle, then fixing this problem would be traversing an overhang with one hand.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    I am in favour of fees returning in some shape or form as in my opinion, it would allow the stink put that is the CAO system to be dismantled, would stop wasters going to college and would purge universitities of stupid courses like communications such and such.

    It'd stop people on the annoying mid point between qualifying for grants and actually having enough money going to college. That'd be the main effect. Given it's the parents paying - they still want their waster kids to go to college.

    I really do think you're a bit out of touch if you hadn't considered things like this. College is full of wasters but would it be better to just leave them completely untrained? I knew a lot of wasters who still graduated.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Sandvich wrote: »
    It'd stop people on the annoying mid point between qualifying for grants and actually having enough money going to college. That'd be the main effect. Given it's the parents paying - they still want their waster kids to go to college.

    I really do think you're a bit out of touch if you hadn't considered things like this. College is full of wasters but would it be better to just leave them completely untrained? I knew a lot of wasters who still graduated.


    Yes I do. Wasters that graduate are still wasters, just with degrees which, in their case, would probably be useless degrees anyway. Label me as out of touch if you will but I am in touch with the world enough to tell you that the cold reality of the world is that a lack of cash means no goods. If someone can't afford to go to college, then they can't afford to go to college. It's not fair but this is the way of the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Yes I do. Wasters that graduate are still wasters, just with degrees which, in their case, would probably be useless degrees anyway. Label me as out of touch if you will but I am in touch with the world enough to tell you that the cold reality of the world is that a lack of cash means no goods. If someone can't afford to go to college, then they can't afford to go to college. It's not fair but this is the way of the world.

    Actually - no it isn't. It's the way of the world you're proposing.

    Like most "hard knock life" aspects of life, it's something that only exists if people chose not to try and work around it.

    There's nothing more pathetic in an argument when people use life not being fair as an excuse to make it more unfair.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    @Sandvich

    In the world you are proposing living

    Someone else has to pay for this at the moment

    in case you haven't noticed we are running a huge deficit and have to borrow at high rates, and then later repay this money + interest

    Unless you leave the country or sponge of welfare, you and your children will be paying for above "discrepancy" for a long time

    Enjoy :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Sandvich wrote: »
    Actually - no it isn't. It's the way of the world you're proposing.

    Like most "hard knock life" aspects of life, it's something that only exists if people chose not to try and work around it.

    There's nothing more pathetic in an argument when people use life not being fair as an excuse to make it more unfair.


    and you're calling me out of touch? As ei.sdraob was kind enough to point out, money doesn't grow on trees. Are you one of those people who think the government are cutting welfare to be evil? Life is never fair, the only thing we can hope for is to navigate the roads of life and hope we don't hit a pothole.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Sandvich wrote: »
    It'd stop people on the annoying mid point between qualifying for grants and actually having enough money going to college.

    That's a cultural problem in Ireland. The more welfare schemes you introduce, the more the people rely on the government. So instead of saving for their child's education, most parents just rely on the state giving it for free. People don't save for the rough times either; they don't make any preparation for a period out of work, relying on the government again. It's a moral hazard issue.

    Because of this the government can't rationalize spending without being heckled and decried. However if people minded their own business, and manged themselves, things would be a lot easier in this regard.
    Sandvich wrote: »
    I knew a lot of wasters who still graduated.

    And that's a piss poor reflection on Irish universities. If you don't make 50% of your classes there should be no chance for you to pass. This could be done via compulsory attendance or, perhaps preferably, making the course hard enough that one needs to give it full-time attention.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    Sandvich wrote: »
    It makes me depressed. I'm the kind of person who needs to be in a socially progressive environment. Should I leave the country? Or should I stay and try to do something about it? Or should I leave and still try to do something about it when I come back to visit the parents? Who knows.

    Ireland is not a positive environment for me. Unfortunately due to issues of mental illness, jumping ship is not so possible for me right now. I don't know what to do. The only place I could realistically go is the UK, while better, is not much better. Sweden would be the next choice, but I really should learn swedish so I don't be a burden, and it could be too much of a culture shock(though that could be a good thing), plus I'd need to find a job abroad, which would be difficult for me.

    What would you do about?
    or rather,
    What can YOU do about it other than post on boards complaining?

    The best thing to do is do what is right for YOU. Go and make a life for yourself where you will be happy, if its not working out here. No point staying here if you can do better elsewhere.

    And remember. Its a cycle, and we arent as badly off as people make out. A bit of world travel will make that very apparent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭population


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

    Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

    Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

    .

    I live in Italy and though they do not have the drinking culture and all the awful ****e attatched to it that we have, I believe the OP is wrestling with the fact that Ireland is a basketcase country, and to be perfectly honest politically and economically, Italy is another one.

    I do love Italy, but do not kid yourself. It has got some serious serious problems.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    population wrote: »
    I live in Italy and though they do not have the drinking culture and all the awful ****e attatched to it that we have, I believe the OP is wrestling with the fact that Ireland is a basketcase country, and to be perfectly honest politically and economically, Italy is another one.

    I do love Italy, but do not kid yourself. It has got some serious serious problems.


    Well you'd know better than me cause you live there but the whole country just seems more settled and calm. People don't seem nearly as greedy or as prone to whining as the Irish.

    But I get you, I do know that Italy has a loopy system of governance and they economics are probably the same but hey, at least the women over there are some of the finest in the world ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Well you'd know better than me cause you live there but the whole country just seems more settled and calm. People don't seem nearly as greedy or as prone to whining as the Irish.

    But I get you, I do know that Italy has a loopy system of governance and they economics are probably the same but hey, at least the women over there are some of the finest in the world ;)

    Maybe you should read Italian message boards :)
    Google translate.
    And the women are fine and then when they hit 30 they are like whales. So go for the young wans.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    AARRRRGH wrote: »
    Maybe you should read Italian message boards :)
    Google translate.
    And the women are fine and then when they hit 30 they are like whales. So go for the young wans.


    Ah well, nothing lasts forever. At least they generally make better cooks.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sandvich wrote: »
    All this sudden thought of the IMF has got me thinking; the IMF are obviously not more competent than our own lot given their track record of stunting growth, but what about other prospective buyers? There has been talk of the Germans coming in, which for now, the Germans have refused. For now.

    The thing is that in the past, Ireland has been quite a productive entity and could be a lucrative prospect if it were to be in some shape or form restored to that. The reason Ireland is the way it is, let's face it, isn't just because of high welfare or bad luck, it's because it's run by Irish people. Remove that factor - and Ireland could be a productive country again.

    Irish people, in this day and age come off to be as having a very corrupt streak to them. In my experience in online discussions, I find myself almost consistantly getting the most aggrivated around Irish people. There is some kind of forced laid back attitude to some, and this really cocky attitude to others; which many in power seem to assume also. People don't take serious things seriously, but take themselves and their "Nests" far too seriously.

    Of course, most governments are corrupt to some degree, but for an EU state Ireland especially so. And it's not even the government that's the only major problem - it's the cowboy businessmen and the multinationals that have left us stranded.

    While it may be a bundle of debt right now - recessions don't tend to last forever and I can see one or more European states deciding to "pool the resources" to "bail us out", which will ultimately mean they'll be feeding of our success once again.

    But I think, in the long run, it might be good for us, and a bit ironic since we fought so hard for independance only to balls it up end up owned again. It might force us to think about our mentality as a nation instead of trying to pin the blame on one group of people, or trying to shovel more of the same kind of economics that led to the global recession anyway.

    I have familial ties to Germany.
    I have been to Germany many times.

    I can tell you with 100% certainty, that this little nation of ours holds ZERO economic/political interest to German and/or Germany.

    We're a small little island on the western seaboard.
    No more.
    No less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    That's a cultural problem in Ireland. The more welfare schemes you introduce, the more the people rely on the government. So instead of saving for their child's education, most parents just rely on the state giving it for free. People don't save for the rough times either; they don't make any preparation for a period out of work, relying on the government again. It's a moral hazard issue.

    No. It's just a badly designed system; I'm tired of Libertarians using the flaws of Ireland's systems when there are others that set out to do something else and do it better. It's dishonest and every post is obviously trying to shovel some kind of Ayn Rand into things instead of thinking in more utilitarian terms.

    As I said in the original post, it's nothing to do with any of this. It's to do with the inherently dodgy Irish mentality and how bad we are at organising everything.

    "Welfare states"(Social Democracies) are sustainable if you have people competent enough to run them. Which is why it wouldn't be a bad idea getting in foreigners to sort us out, instead of a bunch of gowls like the IMF. I think that a lot of the economic right on this forum are more afraid of doing socialistic policies right than they are of IMF's hack and slash policies destroying the countries, which is very worrying.

    I would hazard a guess that the people running the system may be even more important than the ideology behind it. There's a big battle between socialists and neo-liberals as to what ideology can best stop this from happening, and both are probably missing the point to some extent.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    Well you'd know better than me cause you live there but the whole country just seems more settled and calm. People don't seem nearly as greedy or as prone to whining as the Irish.

    But I get you, I do know that Italy has a loopy system of governance and they economics are probably the same but hey, at least the women over there are some of the finest in the world ;)

    Whining is fine. If enough people whine it becomes annoying for the people who don't like to hear people complaining. This is precisely why "whining" is a social stigma to begin with(you will find it all the time on particularly authoritarian online forums). The issue is the Irish people seem to "Mumble" about things rather than seriously complain in a loud and "obnoxious" tone.

    Contrary to popular belief, serious complaint in of itself can be a force for change, as it puts pressure on the forces that be(unless you're a complete eejit like Mary Harney, she just needs to be chucked off a cliff or something). But "serious action" and "Irish people" don't seem to belong in the same sentence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,583 ✭✭✭✭cson


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Unless you leave the country or sponge of welfare, you and your children will be paying for above "discrepancy" for a long time

    Enjoy :cool:

    That's exactly why I'd consider pissing off to somewhere like Cancun like yourself ei, I have issues with paying for someone elses mistakes for the rest of my life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 566 ✭✭✭AARRRRGH


    cson wrote: »
    That's exactly why I'd consider pissing off to somewhere like Cancun like yourself ei, I have issues with paying for someone elses mistakes for the rest of my life.

    Very true. If Ireland becomes a miserable place to live, which it isnt by a long way. I too will pack my bags and go somewhere I can make a better living.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭Sandvich


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    and you're calling me out of touch? As ei.sdraob was kind enough to point out, money doesn't grow on trees. Are you one of those people who think the government are cutting welfare to be evil? Life is never fair, the only thing we can hope for is to navigate the roads of life and hope we don't hit a pothole.

    The same government that poured 4 billion into AngloIrish, which would be more than enough to go towards most proposed welfare cuts?

    Come off it. Times like this when things go arse ways is when people love to look "realistic" and "Mature" when in reality they're proposing solutions that either have little long term merit or just flat out don't take into account anything other than "we have no money". Evidentally, we have the ability to spend some money, it's just what we do with it.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,568 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    How much would we get if we changed the name from the "Republic of Ireland" to the "Coca-Cola Republic of Ireland"?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Sandvich wrote: »
    It's dishonest and every post is obviously trying to shovel some kind of Ayn Rand into things instead of thinking in more utilitarian terms.

    If you're going to try and stereotype my position so then I'll be wasting my time talking with you. I haven't suggested any kind of "Ayn Randism" on this thread; all I've suggested is that the current welfare state has created a situation where people no longer want to do things for themselves, and that this is damaging the prospects of this country. Maybe you'd like to address that point, rather than trying to discredit the person making it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Sandvich wrote: »
    The same government that poured 4 billion into AngloIrish, which would be more than enough to go towards most proposed welfare cuts?

    Come off it. Times like this when things go arse ways is when people love to look "realistic" and "Mature" when in reality they're proposing solutions that either have little long term merit or just flat out don't take into account anything other than "we have no money". Evidentally, we have the ability to spend some money, it's just what we do with it.



    If I had a euro for every time someone has made the "they have the money for the bankers" argument then I could take the rest of the year off work. We didn't have the 4 billion we gave to Anglo or even the rest of the NAMA fund, we borrowed it. And seeing as you seem to have adopted an agenda of labelling me, you seem to be utterly ignorant of where money comes from.

    And what are you on about saying that when the s**t hits the fan, people try to act mature? What would you rather, we all just whine over a pint about the bad bankers and call Joe Duffy to complain about the civil service worker living next door still having a job?

    NAMA is a one time deal (or at least, I hope to God it is), it cost a fortune but it actually isn't the biggest problem; that would be the deficit. We're spending too much each year because we're still supporting a Celtic Tiger system of welfare which, as above posters have pointed out, actually encourages the iffy Irish attitude that inspired you to start this post.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,157 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    I'm a patriot, I love Ireland but I agree with you, there is something about the Irish that just stinks. My uncle owns a home in Italy (not a celtic tiger job, he's lived there for years) and when I've been over there to visit him, I was amazed at the differences.

    Picture this, a medium sized Italian town at about 11pm on a saturday. The younger people are there, but they're not drinking and they aren't acting like boisterous children, they're just chatting. Maybe a little loud sometimes but they tended to clear off home by mid night anyway. Take a similar sized town in Ireland and what do you have? People of the same age falling around p!ssed out of their mind, fighting, puking and, most likely, re-producing.

    Now that can be blamed on the scourge that is drink but I think it's something more.

    The there is our ability to do things right, or the lack of. Take music for example; we have a few exceptional musicians in Ireland but on a whole, the Americans, Germans, French, English, south Americans, etc all have us beat in terms of general skill. It's like we lack the ability to apply ourselves to something that takes time and patience to master.

    So yeah, you're absolutely correct, there is something in the water here all right. Or maybe it's in the beer...

    +1

    Everytime I go home to visit I can't get over the state of people in the Evenings, women pis*ing on the streets, puking, fights, falling all over the place.

    I was called something rather nasty for drinking Paulaner, basically because it was in a tall glass, cloudy and foreign looking.

    I'd NEVER move back .. the place is a sinking ship in terms of quality of life.

    Its like a reverse culture shock for me at this stage.
    i.e. you get to Amsterdam, the train is on time, you can travel from there to Paris, Berlin etc all by train.

    You fly into Dublin ... you can get the Aircoach.. fantastic.


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