Pray away the gay

bp1989

Turn on TV3, there's a guy on who believes you can "pray away the gay"...Martin and Sybil seem to be endorsing it:eek:

lola84

Oh have you ever heard anything as silly in ur life?wish i had seen that!! think they should be praying for the priests for everything they have done instead of gay people.

LegacyUser

http://www.tv3.ie/shows.php?request=themorningshow

Friday April 23: 11am

Tricity Bendix

I wouldn't agree with everything he has to say, but simplifying his stance to 'pray away the gay' is hardly correct.

LGiamani

No the gay is here to stay

shoegirl

He was on RTE on Monday morning on PK.

I wrote them a nice letter and sent it to complaints@rte.ie

I got a reply today and they are forwarding it on.
I included references to SCOTT, and various links on their website that shows who they are associated with - NARTH, Exodus International, Paul Millar (Iris Robinson's "lovely psychiatrist"). No church references.

What I find sad about Mike is I scoured the web to find out where his credentials are from and it turns out he has really good ones in reflective learning in education and a strong background in working in univerisities.

It upsets me a lot that somebody with a really good brain and background can be involved in dangerously harmful "therapy" like this.

Rev Hellfire

shoegirl wrote: »

It upsets me a lot that somebody with a really good brain and background can be involved in dangerously harmful "therapy" like this.

In what way is it a "dangerously harmful" therapy ?
Beyond some wishy washy people should be happy as they are. If it works for them and it makes them happy, then that's a result I'd say.

Dark Artist

I just watched it there... it doesn't seem to me like Martin and Sybil were endorsing it. To me they seemed to be holding in the urge to argue with his points.

I love how he admits to still having the need for 'maintenance'. That was the best bit.

shoegirl

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

In what way is it a "dangerously harmful" therapy ?
Beyond some wishy washy people should be happy as they are. If it works for them and it makes them happy, then that's a result I'd say.

The danger is that parents of young gay people who want to force them to change may hear this and send them to this group or try to pressurize them into trying to change. Its also that people who are still trying to come to terms with their sexuality might try this.

Patrick Strudwick has visited at least one psych who is connected to Core Issues and was very disturbed at the methods used. He has reported the individual, who is mentioned on the Core Issues web to the medical council as an official complaint.

This is how he felt about his "therapy":

I lodge a complaint about David with the GMC.
The purpose of this investigation was to find out how conversion therapists operate. What I didn't expect was that I would learn how their patients feel: confused and damaged.
I began to constantly analyse why I found particular men attractive. Does that man represent something that's lacking in me? Do I want him because he looks strong which must mean I feel weak? Did something happen in my childhood? The therapists planted doubt and worry where there was none.
My experiences, I learn, are typical. I speak to Daniel Gonzalez, one of Nicolosi's former clients. "Conversion therapy is a very complicated form of repression," he says. "It's a way of convincing yourself that your same sex attractions have some alternate meaning. It continued to haunt me for years."

Rev Hellfire

shoegirl wrote: »

The danger is that parents of young gay people who want to force them to change may hear this and send them to this group or try to pressurize them into trying to change.
Its also that people who are still trying to come to terms with their sexuality might try this.

Those aren't reasons which invalidate it as a treatment.
I'd agree with you it might be preferable if people were content with themselves as they are; but as the cosmetic industry and the willingness of people to undergo the knife shows, lots aren't. If they find solace in altering their appearance or behaviour to lead what for them are happy and contented lives then that's their business.

Patrick Strudwick has visited at least one psych who is connected to Core Issues and was very disturbed at the methods used. He has reported the individual, who is mentioned on the Core Issues web to the medical council as an official complaint.

tbh the only item of interest in that whole statement is the fact that it was reported to the medical council; who are the only ones qualified to assess the validity or not of such 'treatments'.

shoegirl

This is the problem, Rev, the majority view of associations like the APA and British professional organisations is that such treatments are potentially harmful. Patrick has done a lot of work investigating some of the practitioners associated with Millar and Exodus/NARTH and their British counterparts, and found some very disturbing stuff.

For example, one practitioner suggested that his sexuality might have been the result of repressed memories of childhood sexual abuse (which he did not experience) or distant fathering (which again he says he had a very good relationship with his father).

Quotes from Core Issues themselves on their website:

"As a consequence our sexual identity can be reinforced or altered by either gender-affirming or gay-affirming lifestyles or therapies. CORE works with people who voluntarily seek to change from a “gay” lifestyle to a gender-affirming one. This is sometimes referred to as a “sexual re-orientation” process."

"The homosexual impulse may develop because of early wounding that has remained unhealed; it may also find its roots in legitimate physical and emotional needs that have not been met and have become distorted."

"Heterosexual preference is the goal of gender-affirming therapy and this may lead to marriage."

"CORE seeks to provide support for relationally and sexually damaged and wounded adults who seek wholeness"

"Thisis provided for pastors, pastoral care workers, youth leaders, professional counsellors and psychotherapists or those supporting men and women working through issues of homosexuality."

From this I read the following core values:

• homosexual behaviour is contrary to normal gender appropriate behaviour - this can be seen in the fact that they, like other groups, tend to separate male/female gay people and treat them separately - with the implications that men need to be retaught "masculinity" and vice versa. Transgendered state is itself contrary to God's law according to an article here which quotes the very controversial Alan Chambers who Core Issues were supposed to bring over on tour last week - see http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/february/25.54.html?start=1 Chambers thoughts start around page 4
• homosexual feelings and behaviour (described as SSA - "same sex attraction") are symptomatic of pathological behaviour - you can see this in the language persistently used - sexual brokenness, psychological deficits, wounded, relationally and sexually damaged - they are their words, not mine
• the perferred outcome for somebody moving away from SSA is heterosexual marriage - this I find particularly pernicious as its effectively denying true sexual congruence for the unfortunate future wife (in most cases this seems to be the desired outcome). This I find massively misogynistic - as if women have no right to find a husband who is truly sexually compatible and should have to make do with a man who is attracted to other men. This is in many places stated as preference to celibacy. Now this massively contrasts with bog standard catholic teaching, which insinuates that celibacy is the best state for a gay faithful person.
• Ultimately, while there are many statements that this entire process is voluntary and only for people who are christians who truly want to leave behind gay behaviours, it is implicit that it is fundamentally wrong, incorrect and pathological and that it is something that needs "fixing"

Lastly, I leave you with more links regarding Alan Chambers. Chambers has lobbied against gay marriage in MA - something which contradicts the lie that any part of this movement is happy to leave gay people alone - Exodus is also affiliated to anti-gay marriage lobby groups so in fact far from being willing to live and let live and leave alone happy gays who don't want to change, they are actively working to deny us our rights or have them taken from us:
http://www.alanchambers.org/just_think/2004/02/massachusetts_m.html

"Today, having experienced sexual reorientation, now living a heterosexual lifestyle for the past 11 years and enjoying the bonds of heterosexual marriage for over 5 years, I can attest firsthand to the fact that same-sex marriage is not needed. I can also attest to the fact that same-sex marriage is not what those seeking it are ultimately after. I implore you all to ask yourselves the question, "What's next?" If marriage is redefined to include homosexuals, then what will the next battle be? I guarantee this is only the beginning of wide sweeping legislation changes that seek to limit the freedoms of many in the name of expanding the freedoms of a few. No other behaviorally defined group in history has sought to redefine our culture like the Gay and Lesbian Elite."

And here is evidence of Exodus links to anti marriage rights lobbies
http://web.archive.org/web/20060901092849/http://www.thearlingtongroup.org/2.html

Rev Hellfire

shoegirl wrote: »

This is the problem, Rev, the majority view of associations like the APA and British professional organisations is that such treatments are potentially harmful. Patrick has done a lot of work investigating some of the practitioners associated with Millar and Exodus/NARTH and their British counterparts, and found some very disturbing stuff.

Well there is no disputing the worrying fact of the lack of meaningful legislation surrounding people offering therapy without real medical training.
Not that I'm conceding the point mind