good speed session for 5km races ?

Seres

was thinks of doing some speed work today geared towards 5k races , how does 8*400m @ 5km pace sound with 1min recovery ?
any better ideas ?

RoyMcC

I'm no expert but wouldn't you want to be doing the reps faster than race pace

menoscemo

RoyMcC wrote: »

I'm no expert but wouldn't you want to be doing the reps faster than race pace

Yeah I think 400m reps should be a bit faster than Race pace. Normally should do 10-12 as well.

Other sessions would be 6x800m or 4-5 x1000m @ in and around 5k pace(with maybe 2 mins recover jog/walk).

Not that i'm an expert Seres, you are way better than me!!

Seres

thanks guys , so what pace should i do the 400ms or are longer reps better for 5km distance ?

kennyb3

Seres wrote: »

thanks guys , so what pace should i do the 400ms or are longer reps better for 5km distance ?

start 400m reps at current 5k pace + 5 seconds and then week by week make them quicker until you get to goal 5k pace. as meno says 7*600, 6*800, 5*1k, 3*1mile, 2*2k are all other speed sessions. make sure your giving yourself enough recovery tho that your not comprimising the 400m part and only doing say 5

kennyb3

also 100m and 200m basic speed sessions, or thown in after an easy run will help improve your leg turnover rate.

Seres

kennyb3 wrote: »

start 400m reps at current 5k pace + 5 seconds and then week by week make them quicker until you get to goal 5k pace. as meno says 7*600, 6*800, 5*1k, 3*1mile, 2*2k are all other speed sessions. make sure your giving yourself enough recovery tho that your not comprimising the 400m part and only doing say 5

should all of these be done at current 5km pace +5sec ? why +5 sec , already did LT session this week , 3*1miles with 3 mins recovery @ 10mil pace ?

dna_leri

RoyMcC wrote: »

I'm no expert but wouldn't you want to be doing the reps faster than race pace

You might want to consult the McMillan calculator: http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/cgi-bin/calc.pl

For a 20min 5K runner, he would recommend 400's in the range 1:26.1 to 1:29.8 or 800's in the range 2:55.6 to 3:03.7.
The goal here is to spend time at your maximum aerobic capacity (or VO2max). Start by taking a recovery jog of about half the distance of the repeat. When you are finding it impossible to maintain the pace, quit.

Seres

, ok , i think maybe to do speed work at 5km pace i need to work at Vv02 max ? so that , 7*600/6*800/5*1k at 5km pace ? do i take time recovery or distance recovery ? whats the difference ?

kennyb3

Seres wrote: »

should all of these be done at current 5km pace +5sec ? why +5 sec , already did LT session this week , 3*1miles with 3 mins recovery @ 10mil pace ?

Seres only talking from what i know but i would do 400's at 5k +5secs first week, then at old 5k race pace next, then new goal pace the following week.

then i would hold that pace and do 600's, then 800's, 1k's. then back to 400's and back up to 1k.

okay to do tempo and intervals in one week just space them something like monday and thurs and run very easy in betwee.

recovery is generally done by time 50-90% of the time you spend doing the rep. for 400's i use 90 secs tho (100% as my 5k goal pace is 18:45).

everybody is different tho, find what works for you. plenty will say do the reps at slower than goal pace but others will say goal pace. I think i read in the P & D book - bob kennedy a top american 5k guy say - why do them at current race pace when thats something you ve already achieved.

the trade off is your more likely to get injured tho - so i find for few weeks its better to do them slower till your body adapts. to me the idea is to build up to 5*1k or 2*2k so your body has both the speed and endurance. by doing 5*1k at goal pace you are replicating a race and teaching your body but with nice rest and recovery in between.

just my 2c's, others will disagree - its the internet after all

Seres

thank kennyb3 , think i will prob go with your advice there then .

menoscemo

Seres wrote: »

, ok , i think maybe to do speed work at 5km pace i need to work at Vv02 max ? so that , 7*600/6*800/5*1k at 5km pace ? do i take time recovery or distance recovery ? whats the difference ?

I would normally do distance recovery. For 400m reps- 200m, for 1k reps 400m, but I guess the idea is just to get your HR back down to Normal easy run levels and then go off again!!

Don't think about the pace too much IMO, just go out and do them hard and the pace will always be fairly quick. I just tend to find that I do the 400m reps a bit faster than 5k pace and the 1k reps at or slightly below 5k pace- that's just the way it works out!!

BeepBeep67

Personally I do 400's faster, but it depends on what you are you are trying to achieve and how many you plan to do. If your doing 6 - 8 that's normally rep pace for an anerobic session which also improves mechanics.
Think you ran just over 40mins recently that would put you on a VDOT of 51 according to Jack Daniels suggesting 87secs for your 400's @ rep pace.
Don't get into the habit of trying to run quicker each week, wait for 4 weeks or wait until you run a race that moves you up to a higher VDOT.
For intervals you can increase the quantity of your 400's or increase the distance so 12 x 400 or 6 x 800 or 4 x 1200, keeping the total distance for the quality element quite close, JD would have your interval pace at 92secs and this would remain the same regardless of doing 400's or 1200's.
Daniel's tends to mix it up a bit in the final 6wks of his 5k to 15k program, combining with everything from 2miles down to 200mts in his sessions.
One of his favourites seems to be:
4 x 200 @ R pace + 200 jog
3 x 1000 @ I pace + 2min jog
2 x 400 @ R pace + 400 jog

I personally like 8-10 x 400 @ 1mile pace and 6 x 800 @ 5k pace minus 5 secs.

You'll find it's a bit of trail and error, it's important to get some training in at faster than race pace for improved efficiency and also stamia training as 5k is a tricky distance that combines a bit of both.

Krusty_Clown

For my last 10k training program (Hal Higdon advanced) I was doing as per Beepbeep's suggestion:
6x400 @1mile pace - each week adding an additional rep, up to 12x
I was doing them at around 5:20/mile pace. Found them tough, but made very good gains. It made the marathon 5k intervals seem easy by comparison!

cfitz

When's the peak race?

A simple suggestion might be do a 600s or 800s at target race pace for about 4-8 weeks with short recovery (the distance of the reps combined should go slightly beyond race distance), then 300s very fast with long recover for about 3-6 weeks.

So an example might be:
Wk1 6x800 at target 5k pace with 1 min jog recovery
Wk2 7x800 at target 5k pace with 1 min jog recovery
Wk3 7x800 at target 5k pace with 45 sec jog recovery
Wk4 7x800 at target 5k pace with 30 sec jog recovery
Wk5 8x300 fast with 3 min recovery
Wk6 10x300 fast with 3 min recovery
Wk7 6x300 fast with 3 min recovery
Wk8 Peak 5k form

Seres

cfitz wrote: »

When's the peak race?

A simple suggestion might be do a 600s or 800s at target race pace for about 4-8 weeks with short recovery (the distance of the reps combined should go slightly beyond race distance), then 300s very fast with long recover for about 3-6 weeks.

So an example might be:
Wk1 6x800 at target 5k pace with 1 min jog recovery
Wk2 7x800 at target 5k pace with 1 min jog recovery
Wk3 7x800 at target 5k pace with 45 sec jog recovery
Wk4 7x800 at target 5k pace with 30 sec jog recovery
Wk5 8x300 fast with 3 min recovery
Wk6 10x300 fast with 3 min recovery
Wk7 6x300 fast with 3 min recovery
Wk8 Peak 5k form

dont really have peak race , just trying to improve spped over shorter distance now ie 5k & 10k and aim for a half marathon in september , would something like the above be useful for 10k race training ?
everyone has a different opinion on what training , speeds , distances , recoveries to be taking , i could follow a really simple repeditive plan but i think they can only bring you so far !

kennyb3

Seres wrote: »

would something like the above be useful for 10k race training ?

not sure what your pb for 5k is seres but like you i was aiming to break 40mins for 10k, i havent done it yet but am fairly sure i will comfortably once im back from injury. I think doing speed sessions like this is perfect for both. The way i see it if you can get your 5k time to 19mins or just below and have sufficent mileage which you do, breaking 40 for 10k should be comfortable. To me you need three things 1) speed - shorter intervals 2) endurance - good mileage 35+ 3)speed endurance - good tempos and longer intervals

shels4ever

Seres wrote: »

dont really have peak race , just trying to improve spped over shorter distance now ie 5k & 10k and aim for a half marathon in september , would something like the above be useful for 10k race training ?
everyone has a different opinion on what training , speeds , distances , recoveries to be taking , i could follow a really simple repeditive plan but i think they can only bring you so far !

I'd agree with the sessions that Cfitz suggested. I followed something similar to that last year but was doing a max of 10X 400m. I found that I took a huge chunk of my 5k time over a 6 week peeriod. All was run at current 5k pace.
This year I would do that same but 2-3 week before a target race I will do some shorter pyrmid session like a 200, 300, 400, 400, 300, 200 @ maybe 2 mile race pace to sharpen up..

But its just what I feel works for me now.

cfitz

Seres wrote: »

dont really have peak race , just trying to improve spped over shorter distance now ie 5k & 10k and aim for a half marathon in september , would something like the above be useful for 10k race training ?
everyone has a different opinion on what training , speeds , distances , recoveries to be taking , i could follow a really simple repeditive plan but i think they can only bring you so far !

Well a good middle distance training program will probably improve you over most distances if it's significantly better than the training you were doing before.

But the real solution to your problem is - get a good coach

Seres

cfitz wrote: »

Well a good middle distance training program will probably improve you over most distances if it's significantly better than the training you were doing before.

But the real solution to your problem is - get a good coach

know of any ?

thanks cfitz , might try out your earlier suggestion ,seems to have got shels4ever vote anyway , however prob wont get a chance for a a couple of weeks as this session will be replaced with 5km race every week for the next six , so thats my interval session replaced .

Mink

Sorry to butt in here ...

I'm a fairly new runner, recently joined an athletics club etc. If it takes me 30mins to do 5km, is it a complete waste of time to join in on 5km races. Should I be doing it in 20mins before I even consider racing?

Seres

Mink wrote: »

Sorry to butt in here ...

I'm a fairly new runner, recently joined an athletics club etc. If it takes me 30mins to do 5km, is it a complete waste of time to join in on 5km races. Should I be doing it in 20mins before I even consider racing?

no way , everyone gets something different out of a race and you would probably really enjoy doing them too , for me personally it gives purpose to my training and you can set yourself goals if you like , also very satisfying when you start to see improvements ,you will probably feel a great sense of achievement on completing you first race , best of luck

cfitz

Seres wrote: »

thanks cfitz , might try out your earlier suggestion ,seems to have got shels4ever vote anyway , however prob wont get a chance for a a couple of weeks as this session will be replaced with 5km race every week for the next six , so thats my interval session replaced .

Six 5k races in six weeks sounds a bit mad - surely 2 or 3 of those would be plenty?!

kennyb3

cfitz wrote: »

Six 5k races in six weeks sounds a bit mad - surely 2 or 3 of those would be plenty?!

+1, dont see what can be gained by doing 6. will seriously affect training also and increase injury risk hugely

Seres

cfitz wrote: »

Six 5k races in six weeks sounds a bit mad - surely 2 or 3 of those would be plenty?!

am doing the galway 5km series and there is a 5km every tuesday for 6 weeks starting from next tuesday , what would be the best approach , skip some or go easy on them ?

kennyb3 wrote: »

+1, dont see what can be gained by doing 6. will seriously affect training also and increase injury risk hugely

whats effects will it have on training if i use the race to replace my reps session on tueday then will have tempo thursday and long run sat , with easy in between days , this keeps all the fundamental sessions in tact for the week ?

cfitz

Seres wrote: »

am doing the galway 5km series and there is a 5km every tuesday for 6 weeks starting from next tuesday , what would be the best approach , skip some or go easy on them ?


whats effects will it have on training if i use the race to replace my reps session on tueday then will have tempo thursday and long run sat , with easy in between days , this keeps all the fundamental sessions in tact for the week ?

Skip some of them. Do your session instead of the others. Running a race and doing an interval session aren't the same - but they both have their place in preparing for a goal race. So, if you always race you will miss out on some of the benefits of an interval session. (For example, in a good session you might cover your race distance at a consistent target pace, whereas in a race early in your training period is likely to be slower than your goal pace for at least part of the race.) Also, racing can be stressful on the body and unpredictable - interval sessions are easier to control, and so stay injury free.

BeepBeep67

I ran 7 races between 2M and 6k last summer in 5 weeks off a good training base, it was enjoyable, but in hindsight too much. Interestingly my best performance came in the first race which has the best pre race preparation.

Seres

cfitz wrote: »

Skip some of them. Do your session instead of the others. Running a race and doing an interval session aren't the same - but they both have their place in preparing for a goal race. So, if you always race you will miss out on some of the benefits of an interval session. (For example, in a good session you might cover your race distance at a consistent target pace, whereas in a race early in your training period is likely to be slower than your goal pace for at least part of the race.) Also, racing can be stressful on the body and unpredictable - interval sessions are easier to control, and so stay injury free.

how does every second week sound ? which would mean i finish them on 25th may and then would have the mini marathon on the 7th June ?

shels4ever

Seres wrote: »

how does every second week sound ? which would mean i finish them on 25th may and then would have the mini marathon on the 7th June ?

They way I would look at it is. If you want to race every week its possible but may not be the best thing for yout medium or long term goals. I love to race myself a race ever 3 week works ok for me(when i'm fit) but these wouldnt be full out races.

If your target is sub 40 for the mini marathon , i'd set up a training place to take me upto that (7th June ) and then see how many races you can work around your plan. The odds are you will have 3-4 mile tempo runs in the plan, and if you trust yourself could do them in the race, that way you could still get your other key session in that week.

aburke

Seres wrote: »

am doing the galway 5km series and there is a 5km every tuesday for 6 weeks starting from next tuesday , what would be the best approach , skip some or go easy on them ?

Don't skip them - you'll miss out on your series T-Shirt!
Maybe take some of them easy... but I'm happy enough to race all 6.

Seres

aburke wrote: »

Don't skip them - you'll miss out on your series T-Shirt!
Maybe take some of them easy... but I'm happy enough to race all 6.

god i dont know if i could curb my competitive edge once the gun goes off , have a few rivals over that directions also ! you goin to take it easy for some ?

tunguska

aburke wrote: »

Don't skip them - you'll miss out on your series T-Shirt!
Maybe take some of them easy... but I'm happy enough to race all 6.

Im with aburke on this one Seres. I dont think one 5km race a week for 6 weeks is too much. Maybe for some people it'd be too much but having met you and seen you run, I think you'll be well able for it. Only one way to find out though........

cfitz

tunguska wrote: »

Im with aburke on this one Seres. I dont think one 5km race a week for 6 weeks is too much. Maybe for some people it'd be too much but having met you and seen you run, I think you'll be well able for it. Only one way to find out though........

But even if she is able for it, where's the benefit? (apart from the t-shirt!)

Seres

tunguska wrote: »

Im with aburke on this one Seres. I dont think one 5km race a week for 6 weeks is too much. Maybe for some people it'd be too much but having met you and seen you run, I think you'll be well able for it. Only one way to find out though........

thanks tunguska im flattered but i am goin to go with cfitz s advice on this one , had been geared up for the 6 but in order to prevent injury and with other goals in mind to prioritise i will just do three

tunguska

cfitz wrote: »

But even if she is able for it, where's the benefit? (apart from the t-shirt!)

Its all about the T-shirt.

The benefits of this type of running..........In relation to speed and getting faster, a guy who ran back in the day, gave me a great piece of advice: The more time you spend running at your 5km pace the faster you become. Its very straight forward, tough training, but simple.
Ive found this to be 100% spot on in my own training. Ive done 5k race pace sessions and literally the next day Id go for a run and Id be running faster, with a lot more ease, than I had previously. Theres probably a lot of science behind this(Im pretty sure JD talks about it in his book) all I know is when I do fast sessions like the 5k race pace sessions it makes me faster and it makes my long runs easy.