How do ye Garda feel about Irish Law?

Just flicking through the paper earlier today and seen that the scumbag who stabbed 7 people in Drogheda recently got off on bail (though he does have to go back to court in June, when, hopefully, he'll be 18 and will face a severe punishment.... I doubt it though!).


I was just thinking of all the scumbags, knackers and cunts of all descriptions who go up in front of judges across the country, only to get their slap on the wrist and let off lightly.


I was just wondering how the members of AGS feel about this? Does it bug you when you have to kick, punch and push to get a scumbag into the back of the car, only to see him walking down the street past you the following day?

Surely it must get pretty frustrating having to deal with the same assholes over and over again?


Or do you just accept it's part of the job and try not to think about it?

me_right_one

I think everybody feels Irish law is a joke, Garda or not:mad:

source

me_right_one wrote: »

I think everybody feels Irish law is a joke, Garda or not:mad:

Irish law is not a joke, there are some very very good laws which give Gardai very good powers, however the problem is that the judiciary don't hand down tough enough sentances. Sometimes i think that judges are completely disconnected from the feelings of the citizens of this country, while i do believe that they should remain impartial, i also believe that when the law demands a mandatory sentence for crime then that sentence should be imposed no matter what mitigating circumstances the offender comes up with.

MagicSean

In addition, the prisons have no room to hold people who are given custodial sentences. This is the biggest problem imo.

Gurgle

foinse wrote: »

when the law demands a mandatory sentence for crime then that sentence should be imposed no matter what mitigating circumstances the offender comes up with.

'Mitigating circumstances' - The way this is applied here is absolutely bizzarre.

It seems that if you're picked up for any violent crime, all you have to do is claim that a) You were addicted to drugs at the time and b) You're not on drugs any more.

It wasn't my fault I stabbed him, it was the 12 pints and 2 joints. But I don't take drugs any more...
Cue the sob storey about how you've turned your life around.

Suspended sentence, off you go, be good.

This seems to me like using 'I was drunk' as a defense for a dangerous driving charge, and the judge accepting it.

seanan37

foinse wrote: »

Irish law is not a joke, there are some very very good laws which give Gardai very good powers, however the problem is that the judiciary don't hand down tough enough sentances. Sometimes i think that judges are completely disconnected from the feelings of the citizens of this country, while i do believe that they should remain impartial, i also believe that when the law demands a mandatory sentence for crime then that sentence should be imposed no matter what mitigating circumstances the offender comes up with.

irish law is the biggest joke goin!!

MagicSean

Gurgle wrote: »

'Mitigating circumstances' - The way this is applied here is absolutely bizzarre.

It seems that if you're picked up for any violent crime, all you have to do is claim that a) You were addicted to drugs at the time and b) You're not on drugs any more.

It wasn't my fault I stabbed him, it was the 12 pints and 2 joints. But I don't take drugs any more...
Cue the sob storey about how you've turned your life around.

Suspended sentence, off you go, be good.

This seems to me like using 'I was drunk' as a defense for a dangerous driving charge, and the judge accepting it.

You also have to have two young kids and be recently unemployed.

Paulzx

seanan37 wrote: »

irish law is the biggest joke goin!!

Ye can't beat a good, well thought out arguement.

Zambia

Every time I was in court someone was up on something they did while drunk and it was always after their granny had died.

My Gran died it was sad but I did not feel the need get hammered and jump on the bonnet of a car on O'connell st

AlekSmart

I was just wondering how the members of AGS feel about this? Does it bug you when you have to kick, punch and push to get a scumbag into the back of the car, only to see him walking down the street past you the following day?

I see where you`re coming from KKV and I would share your curiosity as to the actual opinions of AGS members,However I`ll be surprised if this thread makes it to double figures before it`s locked,as there appears a certain antipathy amongst some posters to actually revealing anything as to their train of thought.

Anybody surrently following the ongoing Kalite/Szwajkos murder trial can already see a certain pattern emerging which is probably all too familiar to AGS members throughout the State.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-on-trial-for-murder-was-stabbed-in-the-back-court-is-told-2145289.html

Shield

AlekSmart wrote: »

I see where you`re coming from KKV and I would share your curiosity as to the actual opinions of AGS members,However I`ll be surprised if this thread makes it to double figures before it`s locked,as there appears a certain antipathy amongst some posters to actually revealing anything as to their train of thought.

Must your posts in this forum always reference how it is moderated? If AGS members don't want to post, then they won't. If the thread goes off course, us moderators attempt to bring it back on course. If that is unsuccessful, the thread is closed.

At present, this thread does not breach the forum charter or any site rules, so there is no reason for it to be closed.

If you have a complaint to make about how this forum is moderated, there are ways you can make your voice heard. Instead, all I see you doing is getting a little dig in wherever and whenever you can, and it's come to my attention on a number of occasions now.

If you wish, you may reply to this via PM, but for now, I want this thread brought back to the topic the OP raised for discussion.

So back on topic...

AlekSmart

# If you have a complaint to make about the forum, please do not complain on threads, use a PM or take it to Feedback.

# Moderator actions are not to be discussed anywhere on the forum. PM the moderator in question, or take it to the Feedback forum.

Moderators opinion on my observations duly noted.

Returning to the substance of the OP`s post,I`m not certain that an individual Garda`s view of Irish LAW is necesserally the issue.

What is,to my mind a greater issue is Gardai`s motivation as they progress through their career.

For example,much displeasure is vented by the General Public about the amount of resources the force put into operating Speed Traps in certain area`s whilst daily robbings,assaults and associated anti-social behaviour along high profile areas such as O Connell St are seemingly tolerated in deference to a higher decision to keep things looking "nice".

However,endless appearances in Courts in relation to the same individuals being facilitated to craft a hugely impressive anti-social and criminal CV must eventually grind down even the most committed of Gardai ?

The OP`s question is still a valid one surely ....

I was just wondering how the members of AGS feel about this? Does it bug you when you have to kick, punch and push to get a scumbag into the back of the car, only to see him walking down the street past you the following day?

deadwood

O.P.,

It can be frustrating when you see people walking about the town square hours after they've been lodged in prison, or because they've been granted bail. Our job, however, is to present the best case we can with the evidence we have. After that, we are just witnesses, the same as any citizen. You learn to shrug it off fairly quickly.

It's up to the courts to apply the law the best way they can which doesn't necessarily mean locking everyone up. We are all innocent until proven guilty beyond any reasonable doubt. That's the system within which we work and watching known criminals walk about is only one of the prices of democracy.

While people moan about "scumbags" walking the streets, they don't pressurise their public representatives to change the law.

If people want every suspected paedo/dealer/thief/dodgy politician/banker/developer locked up as soon as suspicion arises while awaiting a fair trial before we hang them, then the beauty of democracy is that we can actually make that happen. We get the public reps we elect. They act on our behalf and if they thought legalising public flogging would secure them their seat, even the greens would introduce it.

To say that judges "haven't a clue" is also wrong. If you think about it, he/she gets an insight to the world of poverty, crime and social injustice that most of us will only tutt about when we read it in the Toimes over our crappafrappamoccaskinnycaramelgrandelatte. Judges are all too aware of the absurdity of letting known criminals walk out of court while squeezing the Legal Aid system of every resource we throw at it. They are acutely aware that sending an old dear to jail for non-payment of a tv licence, while applying the probation act to a repeat offender seems grossly unfair. They can only play with the cards they are dealt, though, and must uphold the constitution, even at the cost of public outrage.

They can't lock every one up or even apply blanket mandatory sentences. Similarly, Gardai can't prosecute every offence they see. The courts, prisons and probation services would grind to a halt tomorrow if the human element was removed.

...and the drunk/stoned excuse doesn't wash with judges either. It's still thrown out there by solicitors or mentioned by gardai in evidence, not in mitigation.

Change can only start with your next vote.

(apologies to paedos/dealers/thieves for tarring you all with the same brush)

AlekSmart

Change can only start with your next vote

A motto surely worth incorporating in the National Flag ?

FGR

I believe the lack of prison spaces is a much more serious problem. A problem Judges, I believe; are already aware of.

I can imagine it's not only Gardaí who are the only people in the Justice System that are disappointed when seeing someone; after having been given a 4 month jail term, be released (via Temporary Release) after 7 days for this reason.

concussion

Stocks and public floggings could reduce the amount of sentances which are suspended due to lack of prison space. Probably against the scumbags human rights though.

Odysseus

Gurgle wrote: »

'Mitigating circumstances' - The way this is applied here is absolutely bizzarre.

It seems that if you're picked up for any violent crime, all you have to do is claim that a) You were addicted to drugs at the time and b) You're not on drugs any more.

It wasn't my fault I stabbed him, it was the 12 pints and 2 joints. But I don't take drugs any more...
Cue the sob storey about how you've turned your life around.

Suspended sentence, off you go, be good.

This seems to me like using 'I was drunk' as a defense for a dangerous driving charge, and the judge accepting it.

It's not that simple, I write some of those reports that the judge reads. My understanding is in general it can be completely different if voilence is involved.

To claim that story, firstly you had to enter some form of treatment. If you go with MMT methadone programmes for example. The person had to engage with the treatment programme, that includes giving urine sample to verify what is and what is not being used. Then you have a person seeing a therapist, which would be myself.

I have often told people not to ask me for a report if they have not engaged in lifestyle change. It would be a case of don't ask because you won't like what I write. We won't write a report stating a person is opiate free and changing their life if they are not.

However, if a person has started to turn their life around I will write them a good report, relating to the work that they have put in. I was getting a lecture ready last night and I was watching a research DVD, there was a senior Garda talking on it, stating that treatment has shown to be a factor in the reduction of criminality.

It's not a case of giving a sob story and off you go. Over the years a lot of my client have ended up in prison, even though they made serious attempts to address their lifestyle. My work includes prison visits, so it not a get out of jail free card. Also just to state, I don't think an abusive history should get some off, however, the State is not only there to punish but also rehabilitate.

It must be noted that you will get some people who abuse the system, but that's life; you will always get that. However, I have to say I have never seen anyone get a suspend sentense for a saerious assualt, just because they entered treatment, it may happen, but I haven't see it with anyone I have written a report for and I have do up hundreds for them over the years.

me_right_one

Odysseus wrote: »

However, if a person has started to turn their life around I will write them a good report, relating to the work that they have put in. I was getting a lecture ready last night and I was watching a research DVD, there was a senior Garda talking on it, stating that treatment has shown to be a factor in the reduction of criminality.

It's not a case of giving a sob story and off you go. Over the years a lot of my client have ended up in prison, even though they made serious attempts to address their lifestyle. My work includes prison visits, so it not a get out of jail free card. Also just to state, I don't think an abusive history should get some off, however, the State is not only there to punish but also rehabilitate.

Thats all fine and well, but criminals should still be punished appropiately for their crimes. Getting your life in order is what the rest of us law abiding citizens do everyday anyway, it shouldnt be used as some sort of punishment-lessening device

Odysseus

me_right_one wrote: »

Thats all fine and well, but criminals should still be punished appropiately for their crimes. Getting your life in order is what the rest of us law abiding citizens do everyday anyway, it shouldnt be used as some sort of punishment-lessening device

Jugde do what judges does, you can never safely estimate what is going to happen in court at the end of the day. Of course I agree with you that people should be punished, I just want to be clear on that.

I was pointing out to the person I quoted that who belives that all you have to do is say you have an addiction problem and a lets say "diffuclt past" and you get a get out of jail free card, that is not correct. In my understanding judges have to factor in a lot of issues when they pass a sentence.

maninasia

Why are violent offenders allowed out on bail? Also surely violent crimes should be given longer sentences?

This is beneficial to society as a violent criminal cannot harm Joe Public when he is removed from it.
I just cannot understand the current system. Surely the priority is public safety, not the 'hope' that a violent offender can be rehabilitated.

I personally, rightly or wrongly, feel that it is because judges and many of the ministers have grown up and live in priviledged areas and have not had to personally deal with random violent crimes. They don't see the risk from these offenders being present on the street and therefore lean towards the rehabilitation viewpoint, which is opposed to the majority of the country which would rather see these criminals removed from public society so there can be a safer environment.

AlekSmart

Maninasia asks:

Why are violent offenders allowed out on bail? Also surely violent crimes should be given longer sentences?

Odyessus sez:

It's not that simple, I write some of those reports that the judge reads. My understanding is in general it can be completely different if voilence is involved.

Interesting to have a Proffessional Psychologist`s viewpoint on this.

However it also illustrates a somewhat worrying gulf in perceptions of real-world vs ideal world in terms of the States role in protecting those of it`s citizens who for whatever reasons choose NOT to embark upon criminal enterprises.

What,I think,Maninasia and others are concerned about is the numbers of cases which turn out to have been flagged at a very early stage as being very high-risk.

The Manuela Riedo case is perhaps the most recent one where I would contend the various State agencies simply failed in their duty of care to the public at large.

This failure was directly responsible for the savage murder of a totally innocent young girl and the rape of another.

Any reading through modern Irish Court Reports,particularly in the aftermath of a verdict will often reveal a worryingly large number of people with very long criminal records and often of the most violent kind.

If somebody comes before the Courts on a serious charge and subsequently turns out to have 50,60 or more previous convictions,then to my un-professional mind something has gone very awry with the system of which Odyseuss is a part of.

The Gerard Barry case,the "Frog" Ward case and any number of currently active "gangland" cases all feature people with gigantic amounts of "Form".

The question for the State and for ourselves as participants in it is, at what point do we as a society call halt to the process whereby an individual uses the States indecisiveness to further a criminal and often violently so career built almost totally upon the infliction of physical harm and misery on others ?

Nobody,Judges,Gardai,Phychologists,Social Workers or any other elements seem to have an appetite for making that call...so the question remains Who will ?????

MagicSean

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nobody,Judges,Gardai,Phychologists,Social Workers or any other elements seem to have an appetite for making that call...so the question remains Who will ?????

I don't think you are correct there. They can only work within the law as it is and with the resources they have. It is up to the people to convince their elected representatives to change the law and increase funding for prisons and rehabilitation programs.

Odysseus

AlekSmart wrote: »

:

Odyessus sez:

Interesting to have a Proffessional Psychologist`s viewpoint on this.


Nobody,Judges,Gardai,Phychologists,Social Workers or any other elements seem to have an appetite for making that call...so the question remains Who will ?????

Just to clarify I'm a psychotherapist, a lot of my work is done for the Addiction Services, it just that there is a difference between between professions.

As to the second part, whilst I have very strong views on how the State should deal with violent crimes, as a therapist it's really out of my remit. I may write up reports for the courts and work with the probation services and social services if child protection is an issue. Most of the people I dealt with who are locked up, basically deserve to be there, again just my opinion.

However, I do think the courts should look at other options where they are available; and to be honest I don't think our Prison Service does us any favours in relation to the rehabilitation side of things. Look at M/Joy it is really is a kip, the facilities are terrible. Especially for someone on protection, 23hr lock up with 2-4 others in the same cell. We lost a client whilst in protection a few years ago. So I do think their is something wrong with the system; those who say its a holiday camp, really should see the inside of it. Now, I must admit I get a very limited insight to the place during a professional visit.

However, what I see a lot now is lads aged between 30-45 who have spent a good bit of time in prison before, crying in fornt of me during sessions at the thought of going back inside. This is due to the current levels of voilence within the prisons. Bascially, what they claim is that previously you just did your time, but now attacks are so regular, frequent and often for no "good reason" than they are terrified at the thoughts of going back inside.

No some people may say good enough, if they don't want that experience don't commit any crimes. Personally, I don't think that is go enough; whilst they are inside the State is responsible for their care. For those who hold that position, they may be in for a shock if addiction comes knocking at their door, and their son or daughter end up in custody.

All I can really report on is how the person has engaged in treatment, I take reports very seriously and just state the facts. I have seen some people who have spend most of their adult life in the system; turn it around and move totally away from that lifestyle. However, I must acknowledge I don't have the answers, most people are capable of change, however, there are so many factors at play, and to be honest so few make it, that I admit I don't have the answers. How can we as a society provide a fair judgement and punishment; whilst rehabilitating those who want to move on from criminality?

cushtac

AlekSmart wrote: »

Nobody,Judges,Gardai,Phychologists,Social Workers or any other elements seem to have an appetite for making that call...so the question remains Who will ?????

Judges, Gardaí, Social Workers etc. don't make law, they merely work within it. If you feel that the laws are inadequate you have the ability to lobby your government to change them. So the question now is will you?

donvito99

I agree with Foinse.

Although not a Garda, I am very proud of our legal system.

It's just inefficient, and a bit archaic. And thats referring to legislation (or lack of) and the Courts system.

kravmaga

k_mac wrote: »

In addition, the prisons have no room to hold people who are given custodial sentences. This is the biggest problem imo.

+1 Agreed

The Governor of the womens prison in Dochas Centre in Mountjoy has resigned due to operational issues she could no longer live with.

It was mentioned the Bunk beds being brought into areas formely used for educational facilities was the final straw that broke the camels back.

More open prisons for those offenders who are at a lower risk of re-offending in the future me thinks.

AlekSmart

This is due to the current levels of voilence within the prisons.

I take Odysseus point,but I am rather more concerned at the increase in gratuitous violence outside the prisons...ie: on my Bus,on my street and even in places such as Hospitals or Churches.

It seems as if modern post-crash Ireland is reverting back to the Edwardian characterization of Ireland and its people.....dangerously unstable and ever willing to thump you on the back of the head.

We are in a very dangerous phase now and need to make a decision as to where the country and its societal norms are headed...but taking decisions,particularly important one`s has never been a strong point of the Irish mindset.

medicman2009

The prison argument isn't valid in my opinion. Noe enough space and not up to standard and all this malarky shouldn't be any kind of factor in someone's punishment.


In a recent After Hours thread, a user called Medicman made a post with approximates on how much a prisoner cost us per year (this was following on from a few people using the "not enough prison space" excuse).

medicman2009 wrote: »

Irish Prison Service Annual Report December 2008.... http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/1220/1229725700591.html

1 Prisoner in Portlaoise costs us €270,000 per year.

1 Prisoner in Shelton Abbey costs us €107,800 per year.

1 Prisoner in St. Pat's costs us €106,800 per year.

Loughan House... a mere €82,200 per prisoner.

My reply, which I firmly stand by;

Deleted User wrote: »

What I don't understand about this argument, is the reaction to the above seems to be "we can't afford to put any more in prison".

The true reaction should be "double the amount of people to a cell. All TVs, Radios, toiletries, 'luxury items' and any items remotely expensiev or likely to retain value that are not belong to prison guards sold at Garda Auction immediately. Reduce quality of food and portions. All clothes/bedclothes/etc. cleaning performed 50% less often. If there are subscription fees (internet, TV licenses, etc.) opt for cheaper alternatives or remove completely (or reserve for prison guards only)."


Not too difficult in fairness. T'is prison, ater all.

Prisoners shouldn't be sympathised with. They're in prison for a damn good reason (especially considering this is the country where everyone gets off, you'd think those in prison would be there for some fairly serious crimes).


If i rever back to my original post in this thread, 17 year old stabs SEVEN people. Hospitalises some of them, two I believe ended up in 'criticial' condition at one stage. Yet, a week later, the person who stabbed these seven people, is out and about walking the streets.


His biggest punishment is that he's not allowed into Drogheda... which is senseless at best.Does Drogheda have some kind of street layout or funky smell that encourages knife crime!? No! If you're remorseless enough to stab someone in Drogheda, then you're able to do it in Meath, Dublin, Cork, or Kerry either.



About as useless as it seems, I've written to my local TD(s) and gotten a generic reply (and a reply saying the "Ceann Comhairle will bring our correspondence to the attention of the minister for Justice, Equality and Law reform, Dermot Ahern TD for his direct response").

Whats a general waiting waiting period to hear anything back (ie; before I wreck their heads with bucket loads of emails/letters/etc.)

MagicSean

Deleted User wrote: »

The prison argument isn't valid in my opinion. Noe enough space and not up to standard and all this malarky shouldn't be any kind of factor in someone's punishment.

What's the point in a judge sending away a man for a few months when he knows he will be out in a few weeks at most.

Deleted User wrote: »

Prisoners shouldn't be sympathised with. They're in prison for a damn good reason (especially considering this is the country where everyone gets off, you'd think those in prison would be there for some fairly serious crimes).

I would agree that we spend too much on prisoners and give them too many luxuries.

Deleted User wrote: »

If i rever back to my original post in this thread, 17 year old stabs SEVEN people. Hospitalises some of them, two I believe ended up in 'criticial' condition at one stage. Yet, a week later, the person who stabbed these seven people, is out and about walking the streets.


His biggest punishment is that he's not allowed into Drogheda... which is senseless at best.Does Drogheda have some kind of street layout or funky smell that encourages knife crime!? No! If you're remorseless enough to stab someone in Drogheda, then you're able to do it in Meath, Dublin, Cork, or Kerry either.
[/SIZE]

Are they not just his bail conditions? Has he been convicted yet?

maninasia

So a load of old cobbler replies as usual.
They had money for banks didn't they? Money for motorways and social welfare.

They need to make a priority on public safety. The general public at large are complicit though, no idea how much better it is in most developed countries or else too bl$%dy lazy.
I might er on the lazy explanation as they still have the same government that shafted them for the last 8 years or so.

Also, judges and lawyers should work for the public good. Justice and safety is the first priority. If they see a problem they should try and fix it instead of making money , greed.

k_mac

k_mac wrote: »

What's the point in a judge sending away a man for a few months when he knows he will be out in a few weeks at most.

Even if they do believe the criminal will get out sooner than sentenced, they should still be hefty on the punishments. Of course, in order to not to become a laughing stock where scumbag 1 will comfort scumbag 2 by telling him "ah sure you only got 5 years, you'll probably only do two of them!", there should be another prison being built somewhere. Built by more than one company, too! Get it up as fast as possible. Can't imagine cells being too difficult to build, considering they can bang out shopping centres in a year or two.

I would agree that we spend too much on prisoners and give them too many luxuries.

I agree, but also think general prison life should be tougher. At the very least, prisoners should have to clean Garda cars/vans/etc. (whilst supervised, obviously) and prisoners who are thought to be of 'good character' could be thought basic mechanics to fix up cars and stuff. Not even complex stuff (or anything that could put the Gardaì at risk, last thing you need are the brakes cut on a Garda car) but even with something like this worked in, we'd have nice clean patrol cars and it wouldn't cost the state a fortune sending them to over-priced mechanics the whole time (this is just me typing and this idea coming out, i'm sure there are a lot of reasons why it's abad idea, but on the surface it seems ok to me!).

Are they not just his bail conditions? Has he been convicted yet?

They are, but do you not think he should be locked up until convicted? Even banged up permanently at the Drogheda Garda Station until it's conviction time? He stabbed seven people. Not someone who should be given a slap on the wrist.

Can't imagine him getting a harsh punishment anyway.

MagicSean

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if they do believe the criminal will get out sooner than sentenced, they should still be hefty on the punishments. Of course, in order to not to become a laughing stock where scumbag 1 will comfort scumbag 2 by telling him "ah sure you only got 5 years, you'll probably only do two of them!", there should be another prison being built somewhere. Built by more than one company, too! Get it up as fast as possible. Can't imagine cells being too difficult to build, considering they can bang out shopping centres in a year or two.

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree, but also think general prison life should be tougher. At the very least, prisoners should have to clean Garda cars/vans/etc. (whilst supervised, obviously) and prisoners who are thought to be of 'good character' could be thought basic mechanics to fix up cars and stuff. Not even complex stuff (or anything that could put the Gardaì at risk, last thing you need are the brakes cut on a Garda car) but even with something like this worked in, we'd have nice clean patrol cars and it wouldn't cost the state a fortune sending them to over-priced mechanics the whole time (this is just me typing and this idea coming out, i'm sure there are a lot of reasons why it's abad idea, but on the surface it seems ok to me!).

Get the prisoners to build another prison.

Deleted User wrote: »

They are, but do you not think he should be locked up until convicted? Even banged up permanently at the Drogheda Garda Station until it's conviction time? He stabbed seven people. Not someone who should be given a slap on the wrist.

Can't imagine him getting a harsh punishment anyway.

Thats the price we have to pay so that people can be considered innocent until proven guilty. From what I read about this case it was something to do with legal highs. I would presume that staying sober is part of his conditions.

k_mac

k_mac wrote: »

Get the prisoners to build another prison.

Clever!

Thats the price we have to pay so that people can be considered innocent until proven guilty. From what I read about this case it was something to do with legal highs. I would presume that staying sober is part of his conditions.

'Innocent until proven guilty' should only apply when it's feasible, though. This guy stabbed seven people in front of a crowd and was fought to the ground by a taxi driver. It's not like we're going to find out it was an evil twin that did it or something. We know he did it. It doesn't make sense.

MagicSean

Deleted User wrote: »

'Innocent until proven guilty' should only apply when it's feasible, though. This guy stabbed seven people in front of a crowd and was fought to the ground by a taxi driver. It's not like we're going to find out it was an evil twin that did it or something. We know he did it. It doesn't make sense.

Where do you draw the line though? How much evidence is enough to "know someone is definitely guilty?

TheNog

Deleted User wrote: »

They are, but do you not think he should be locked up until convicted?

Unfortunately we have arrived at the situation (some time ago) where those who have been imprisoned are not serving their time at all. Take for instance two public order convictions recently at my local district court. Both sentenced to 80 days (repeat serial offenders) and both out on TR the following day. One of them was arrested again for public order 3 days later (apparently celebrating he was out) and the other committed a rape 2 days after being released.

Even banged up permanently at the Drogheda Garda Station until it's conviction time? He stabbed seven people. Not someone who should be given a slap on the wrist.

Up to four years ago Drogheda station was considered the second busiest station in the country outside of city based stations (Dundalk was the busiest) but it only has 3 cells and no proper facilities to keep a prisoner for any extended amount of time.

Bear in mind Drogheda station was only built about 10-12 years ago but already it is far too small for the job in hand there.

k_mac

k_mac wrote: »

Where do you draw the line though? How much evidence is enough to "know someone is definitely guilty?

Bucket loads of eye witnesses and being arrested at the scene, to me, would qualify as "definitely guilty".

me_right_one

Deleted User wrote: »

Bucket loads of eye witnesses and being arrested at the scene, to me, would qualify as "definitely guilty".

+1

Add to that 7 independant stab victims. It would hardly be a fluke if they all picked out the same fella in a line-up

Odysseus

Deleted User wrote: »

The prison argument isn't valid in my opinion. Noe enough space and not up to standard and all this malarky shouldn't be any kind of factor in someone's punishment.


Prisoners shouldn't be sympathised with. They're in prison for a damn good reason (especially considering this is the country where everyone gets off, you'd think those in prison would be there for some fairly serious crimes).


If i rever back to my original post in this thread, 17 year old stabs SEVEN people. Hospitalises some of them, two I believe ended up in 'criticial' condition at one stage. Yet, a week later, the person who stabbed these seven people, is out and about walking the streets.


His biggest punishment is that he's not allowed into Drogheda... which is senseless at best.Does Drogheda have some kind of street layout or funky smell that encourages knife crime!? No! If you're remorseless enough to stab someone in Drogheda, then you're able to do it in Meath, Dublin, Cork, or Kerry either.






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At the end of the day, not matter how outraged we may feel over certain crimes, whilst in prison the person is in the care of The State. If you got a view of inside the male section of M/Joy I wonder if you would change your viewpoint; it really is a kip. They are entitle to have their basic human rights fulfilled.

This being said I have stated above and will do so again, I agree with punishment for crimes, but without any emphasis on rehab, its usless.

As for as I know you are talking about that person's bail conditions, he has yet to found guilt and sentenced yet.

I see people who have spent most of their adult life toing and froing M/joy or some other place of detention. Clearly the punishment side is not enough, we need to be doing something else with certain people.

me_right_one

Odysseus wrote: »

If you got a view of inside the male section of M/Joy I wonder if you would change your viewpoint; it really is a kip.

GOOD:mad:

Odysseus wrote: »

This being said I have stated above and will do so again, I agree with punishment for crimes, but without any emphasis on rehab, its usless.

How is it useless????? I am gobsmacked by your attitude. Its not useless, its JUSTICE

Odysseus wrote: »

I see people who have spent most of their adult life toing and froing M/joy or some other place of detention. Clearly the punishment side is not enough, we need to be doing something else with certain people.

Yes! Punish harder!!! Why isn't there a facepalm smiley.

Odysseus

Odysseus wrote: »

At the end of the day, not matter how outraged we may feel over certain crimes, whilst in prison the person is in the care of The State. If you got a view of inside the male section of M/Joy I wonder if you would change your viewpoint; it really is a kip. They are entitle to have their basic human rights fulfilled.

This being said I have stated above and will do so again, I agree with punishment for crimes, but without any emphasis on rehab, its usless.

As for as I know you are talking about that person's bail conditions, he has yet to found guilt and sentenced yet.

I see people who have spent most of their adult life toing and froing M/joy or some other place of detention. Clearly the punishment side is not enough, we need to be doing something else with certain people.

To be honest, I don't agree with you. Everyone will have differing viewpoints, but I don't think that the rehab is much ues at the moment.

Yes, I do believe that emphasis on rehab is a nice thing, but to be fair, I feel Ireland is more than sufficient in 'rehabbing' people. I don't believe the punishment for crimes is severe enough though. There needs to be a balance.

Rehab is fine with me. But it's not a deterrant. Its built for people who are criminals, it's not built to deter people from becoming criminals.

If you're contemplating breaking into someone's house, what's going to deter you more?

1. Knowing, if you're caught, you'll have to go to court, be told off and... well... seemingly enough that's about all.

2. Knowing, if you get caught, you'll have to pay for all damage (including compensation to the occupants of the house, if you're unemployed it comes out of your welfare automatically) and you'll be locked up for a minimum of six months - guaranteed.


A heftier sentence will result more in people thinking twice in my opinion.


Ireland just seems so backwards in a lot of ways. Even little things. For example, I don't know if this is mandatory or Garda preference, but, have you seen patrol cars at night these days?

They drive around with their blue lightbar on the roof turned on!? In America, they're trying to make their cars less visible in a lot of places, by removing light bars and such;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Dobbs_Ferry_PD_cars_908_and_905%2C_autumn_2006.jpg/800px-Dobbs_Ferry_PD_cars_908_and_905%2C_autumn_2006.jpg

(for example)


but in Ireland, they drive around with the lights on? This absolutely boggles me, as, if a criminal is about to commit a crime, he gets a good warning that the Gardaì are driving up the street, so all he has to do is wait until they pass, and then he can commit his crime, safe in the knowledge that another patrol car won't be passing for some time.

Who does this benefit?

I know that's kind of off topic, but it's just one of the little things that displays how.. bizarre, for want of a better word, we are...

AlekSmart

At the end of the day, not matter how outraged we may feel over certain crimes, whilst in prison the person is in the care of The State. If you got a view of inside the male section of M/Joy I wonder if you would change your viewpoint; it really is a kip. They are entitle to have their basic human rights fulfilled.

This is perhaps getting it back to the real nitty-gritty and underlines my posts concerning how seriously the State takes it`s duty-of-care to those who have committed criminal enterprise.

The point concerning "Basic Human Rights" is very relevant,but it does appear to have little meaning for those members of our society who choose NOT to become criminally involved.

I would contend that the victim of a crime committed by an offender with more than 3 convictions for that category of crime could be said to have been denied their "basic-human-right" to protection.

We are talking about real lives and real people here,at both ends of the spectrum.
I have little doubt but that the inside of Mountjoy is a "Kip" however as long as I come into daily contact with elderly and infirm people living in abject fear of serial thieves and muggers then I shall hold back on my compassion for the criminal element contained therein.

I fully agree that offenders need to have some level of "understanding" displayed towards them and the decisions they took to bring them along the criminal road.

However,I am also aware that whilst Odeysseus is able to offer the considerable benefits of a trained Pshycotherapist to some of these criminals,many of their victims are left without any such counselling...unless they can pay for it out of whatever funds they may have left after a robbery or attack.

Like it or not,there are a great many people who are becoming ever more disenchanted with a Society which daily appears to reduce the worth it places on the solid virtues of honesty,work or peaceful intent.

talla10

The problem in Ireland is prison spaces which have risen substantially in recent years and no new prison spaces have been created. To tackle the problem i believe three brand new prisons each capable of housing 8,000 prisoners should be built. This would create more prison officers jobs, building jobs maintenence jobs and then judge's could refuse bail for more serious offences and give longer sentences. yes it will cost a lot of money but surely jailing serious criminals and ensuring public safety should be a priority in this day and age??dont want to keep on harping about the banks but if €4 billion can go to saving a zombie bank money could be spent on ensuring public safety law and order and maybe, just maybe, the prospect of bail refusal and a longer sentence may be a deterrant to some, not all, would be criminals

bravestar

Odysseus wrote: »

Clearly the punishment side is not enough, we need to be doing something else with certain people.

Eh, what punishment side? There is none. The usual lads couldn't care less about going inside for a supposed few months...

Odysseus

bravestar wrote: »

Eh, what punishment side? There is none. The usual lads couldn't care less about going inside for a supposed few months...

Have a look at one of my eariler posts about some of our older lads, going back inside. Of course, you have those who don't give a fcuk, and thb fair probably nothing will work with that mind set.

Odysseus

AlekSmart wrote: »

However,I am also aware that whilst Odeysseus is able to offer the considerable benefits of a trained Pshycotherapist to some of these criminals,many of their victims are left without any such counselling...unless they can pay for it out of whatever funds they may have left after a robbery or attack.

I do a bit of vol work on that side of things which is why I do have strong opinions about violence. We had a vol service within the HSE as well to respond psychologically to those attacked whilst on duty in whatever care setting. However, due to cut backs even this is gone now.