Armed Gardai?

Denerick

Should we adopt an English policing system? Armed Gardai at every inner street corner?

There is already an armed response unit, perhaps it should be enlarged to have more units in troublespots in Limerick and Dublin. Or perhaps it would be a bad precedent to establish in this relatively gun free country.

Thoughts?

Eliot Rosewater

Usually when this issue comes up the quote "taking the gun out of Irish politics" is mentioned. Unfortunately the gangsters and criminals in our cities have put the gun back into Irish politics, and that is something we can't avoid.

An armed policy might raise the peoples' respect for the Gardaí. This argument is especially relevant given that one of the original reasons the Gardaí were unarmed was for community respect.

PomBear

Not a chance in hell, they're already negligent enough

challengemaster

If you manage to get Gardaí at every street corner, armed, unarmed or no arms, you're doing well!

Dr. Baltar

If you're sending gardaí into gangland areas I don't see why they should not be armed. In fact, they should be encouraged to be armed so long as they have the correct training.

Liam Byrne

I'd welcome it.

That said, I'd prefer if the scummy drug dealers and thugs weren't on the streets, which is the fault of the courts and PC brigade and the parents who don't look after their kids and teach them the basics of right and wrong.

the_syco

Dr. Baltar wrote: »

In fact, they should be encouraged to be armed so long as they have the correct training.

Correct training being the crucial wording. You want armed Gardaí who still remember how to be a Garda, and not use the gun to solve the incident. Also, some sort of psych test before they are given a gun.

IrishTonyO

I would be all in favour of armed Gardai. The times have changed and these days thugs, gangs etc all routinely carry weapons, how are the Gardai supposed to be effective if you have unarmed Gardai coming face to face with armed criminals. Also I think it would send out a clear message to criminals that there is the chance of them being shot and killed, which may make them reconsider their actions. I know some people will say then the criminals will just arm themselves, but the truth is they already have.

johnnyjb

I really really really think that would be a bad idea.I have never come across a guard that i would deem responsible enough to mind a dog never mind a loaded gun.Its only a cushy job to most of them.

They wouldnt pull it on a drug dealer,it would be put against the heads of people stopped in yellow boxes and the likes :cool:. Face it its not a proper police force compared to other countries imho

It wasn't me!

It's one step - and not a central one either - among many needed to reinvent our justice system, crucial to which is the discovery of a vast, untapped reservoir of Nazi gold, so yeah, pipe dream for now, but the principle is sound.

A_Border_Bandit

Garda Síochána - Guardians of Peace

With a name that cool, perhaps they should be equipped with a four foot sword and a longbow, Aragorn style...

Nah, I think they should get more Gardai out on the streets which in itself would be a deterrant rather than using guns.

Plus a zero tollerance approach to any scumbags carrying such weapons.

Riddle101

I have no problem with arming the Gardaì, they have a tough and dangerous job and I think it would just be better for them to have some protection whens sh!t goes down.

Denerick

johnnyjb wrote: »

I really really really think that would be a bad idea.I have never come across a guard that i would deem responsible enough to mind a dog never mind a loaded gun.Its only a cushy job to most of them.

They wouldnt pull it on a drug dealer,it would be put against the heads of people stopped in yellow boxes and the likes :cool:. Face it its not a proper police force compared to other countries imho

Come on, thats unfair. Not nice.

ei.sdraob

A_Border_Bandit wrote: »

Plus a zero tollerance approach to any scumbags carrying such weapons.

Ok a scumbag is carrying a weapon

A Gardai is not

please illustrate how the Gardai can show "zero tolerance" in such a situation

McNulty32

It has being proven at this stage that the Gardai are incapable of using firearms be it through poor training or malice, there are ample amount of cases that prove the Gardai are nothing but a gang of gun toting mavericks when arms are involved, god help us all if they ever get their hands on guns

Cookie_Monster

There are other forms of arms than gun which should be explored as a first step I think

Tazer guns would be a good example of an effective non lethal device. Ok so not as effective in all situations, such as gang activity, but give the average guard on the street these and the more senior & specialist teams "real" firearms & appropriate training

IrishTonyO

McNulty32 wrote: »

It has being proven at this stage that the Gardai are incapable of using firearms be it through poor training or malice, there are ample amount of cases that prove the Gardai are nothing but a gang of gun toting mavericks when arms are involved, god help us all if they ever get their hands on guns

Has it been proven? Oh, by whom and where some facts please rather than a rant.

OhNoYouDidn't

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Has it been proven? Oh, by whom and where some facts please rather than a rant.

Abbylara
Abbeyleix.

But aside from that, when was the last time a gun got pulled on a Garda?

Dannyboy1987

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Abbylara
Abbeyleix.

But aside from that, when was the last time a gun got pulled on a Garda?

very rarely because of the they don't go in to some areas where this does happen, Also young guard getting attacked comes to mind in ballymun . Maybe if he was armed this might not of happened "

JonathanAnon

Well I got stopped at checkpoints a few times by guards with automatic weapons. Think it was the time there were a lot of drugs finds in North Kildare. I assume that was the ERU? But if they can set up a checkpoint and put in a gun across the front of my car while checking my tax, then I would consider the Gardai as already being armed when they choose to be.

The problem is not with giving the guards more firepower, it's with prosecuting, convicting, and properly sentencing those who are the scum of society. I heard during the week that a girl who was doing a Masters was arrested and thrown in jail as she was an illegal immigrant. This from the same legal system that gave that psycho (dont think I'm allowed name the guy) in the ongoing "screwdriver" case bail??

In cases of armed robbery, where the guards come in armed as it is, I wish they would be a bit more strong armed. As they were that time in Lusk. Scum who put a gun in your face and try to steal what you have worked for need to know that their lives are ALSO on the line if they engage in this sort of behaviour.

gerire

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Abbylara
Abbeyleix.

But aside from that, when was the last time a gun got pulled on a Garda?

2007 Garda Paul Sherlock was shot

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shot-garda-lured-into-trap-by-evil-crime-gang-1088808.html

COURAGEOUS Garda Paul Sherlock was lured into a trap by armed thugs who shot him yesterday because his prompt action prevented them from carrying out an armed robbery.

As President Mary McAleese led tributes to the brave traffic officer last night, the 34-year-old father of two was in a stable condition in hospital after being hit in the left side and arm.

A crime gang from Dublin's north inner city is believed to have been responsible for the shooting.

The attack on the unarmed and uniformed garda prompted calls from some of his rank and file colleagues for a fresh look at arming the force. Deputy general secretary of the Garda Representative Association John Healy said: "My preference would be that uniformed gardai remain unarmed but we can't be sending people out to deal with this type of cowardly, despicable act on a daily basis and give them no protection."

A major hunt for the gunmen was under way last night as garda forensic experts looked for vital clues to their identity from their abandoned silver Nissan Almera car.

The Almera had been stolen from Charleville Avenue in Ballybough on May 22 last and was probably kept in storage since then.

Senior officers appealed to anybody with information about its whereabouts since then to contact them immediately.

Garda Sherlock, from Portmarnock, Co Dublin, is one of three brothers in the force. He is attached to the regional traffic unit based at Dublin Castle, while his brothers are stationed in Store Street. One of his two children was born earlier this year.

He was on routine traffic duties on his motorcycle in the north city as part of Operation Artery, which monitors traffic flow through the capital.

Around 9am a friend of the owner of the Almera spotted the car on North Strand and the gardai were alerted. A description of the car, registration number 02 D 68111, was flashed to all personnel on patrol in the area.

Garda Sherlock was on North Strand when he picked up the message and almost immediately noticed the Almera in the traffic.

He followed the Almera at a safe distance as it was being driven towards the city centre and radioed for back up.

The Almera turned left into Ossory Road and when Garda Sherlock continue to tail it he was spotted by the two men in the car.

The Almera driver waited until he turned around a bend in the road and then pulled into the side. Garda Sherlock slowed down as he saw the car stopping and began to park behind it. A gunman suddenly jumped out of the front passenger seat and fired one blast from a sawn-off shotgun as the officer was still sitting on the motorcycle.

He was struck in the left side and arm while pellets also lodged in the motorcycle.

The gunman ran back to the car which sped away along West Road in the East Wall area.

It was discovered shortly afterwards at St Barnabas Gardens and gardai think the gunmen might have switched to a white van.

Gardai said the gunmen were likely to have been high on cocaine and were planning a robbery in the area, probably from a post office at the junction of North Strand and Ossory Road where the gang believed a cash shipment had been delivered earlier.

They were wearing high visibility builders bibs and one also had what was described as a fisherman's cap.

Garda Sherlock was rushed to the Mater Hospital but his condition stabilised during the morning and he was visited by his wife and mother.

It has being proven at this stage that the Gardai are incapable of using firearms be it through poor training or malice, there are ample amount of cases that prove the Gardai are nothing but a gang of gun toting mavericks when arms are involved, god help us all if they ever get their hands on guns

ORLY? By whom, Anyone I know who has acess to a weapon are level headed and they would tell you that the number of times they draw their weapon is, thankfully, negligible.

The arming of officers is a debate which routinely draws up its head. I too believe that moving onto the taser is a necisity for officer safety. I dont believe that having all rank and file walking aroung with a gun is required.

helimachoptor

Dannyboy1987 wrote: »

very rarely because of the they don't go in to some areas where this does happen, Also young guard getting attacked comes to mind in ballymun . Maybe if he was armed this might not of happened "

But then again, he may get his weapon taken from him and shot with it, or it may add a gun to the arms cache of the underworld and you can be sure if that gun was used to kill someone a while later there would be quite an issue made out of it.

jayteecork

I remember being in a Madrid when the cop passed.

He was sporting full stubble, bleached hair, the top of his shirt opened revelling a very hairy chest.

He was also packing heat.

Didn't exactly fill me with confidence.

IrishTonyO

jayteecork wrote: »

I remember being in a Madrid when the cop passed.

He was sporting full stubble, bleached hair, the top of his shirt opened revelling a very hairy chest.

He was also packing heat.

Didn't exactly fill me with confidence.

why?

Cookie_Monster

jayteecork wrote: »

I remember being in a Madrid when the cop passed.

He was sporting full stubble, bleached hair, the top of his shirt opened revelling a very hairy chest.

He was also packing heat.

Didn't exactly fill me with confidence.

Looking like that and carrying a girly magazine, just as well he wasn't armed eh?
:pac::pac::pac:

OhNoYouDidn't

gerire wrote: »

2007 Garda Paul Sherlock was shot

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/shot-garda-lured-into-trap-by-evil-crime-gang-1088808.html

So the last incident was 3 years ago and he revieved minor wounds and even if he was armed would have happened regardless. Terrible, but hardly justifies the hysterics on this thread.

If anyone can come up with any operational reason that would require the beat Garda to be armed, please share with us.

MagicSean

johnnyjb wrote: »

I really really really think that would be a bad idea.I have never come across a guard that i would deem responsible enough to mind a dog never mind a loaded gun.Its only a cushy job to most of them.

They wouldnt pull it on a drug dealer,it would be put against the heads of people stopped in yellow boxes and the likes :cool:. Face it its not a proper police force compared to other countries imho

What a load of bull. Before you talk crap I think you should go to another country for a while and see how you get on. Gardaí have a much higher tolerance for taking crap from people than most european police forces.

McNulty32 wrote: »

It has being proven at this stage that the Gardai are incapable of using firearms be it through poor training or malice, there are ample amount of cases that prove the Gardai are nothing but a gang of gun toting mavericks when arms are involved, god help us all if they ever get their hands on guns

I see no proof of that at all. Most Gardaí don't even want to be armed.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Abbylara
Abbeyleix.

But aside from that, when was the last time a gun got pulled on a Garda?

Two incidents in ten years. There have been a lot more times when weapons have been used and everything goes fine. They just don't get reported in the papers. As this seems to be the extent of your research you might not be aware of them.

I know of two Gardaí who have been shot in the last three years. If you read the paper you will see that gardaí in Donegal had a gun pulled on them last week. And a few months ago an off duty garda wrestled a gun from a man in Wetmanstown who has trying to shoot someone. Guns get pulled on Gardaí a lot more than you would think.

IrishTonyO

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So the last incident was 3 years ago and he revieved minor wounds and even if he was armed would have happened regardless. Terrible, but hardly justifies the hysterics on this thread.

If anyone can come up with any operational reason that would require the beat Garda to be armed, please share with us.

hysterics?? oh please, re read the posts.

aDeener

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Abbylara
Abbeyleix.

But aside from that, when was the last time a gun got pulled on a Garda?

was that man in abbeylara not firing at the gardai? if so what were they expected to do?

jerry mccabe is a very high profile incident.

i'd be all in favour of arming the gardai. i also like the notion of tazers as a non lethal approach

MagicSean

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So the last incident was 3 years ago and he revieved minor wounds and even if he was armed would have happened regardless. Terrible, but hardly justifies the hysterics on this thread.

If anyone can come up with any operational reason that would require the beat Garda to be armed, please share with us.

Many more gardaí are injured by knives and other weapons. Being armed, even with a taser, would allow them to keep their distance from someone armed with these weapons.

MagicSean

aDeener wrote: »

was that man in abbeylara not firing at the gardai? if so what were they expected to do?

jerry mccabe is a very high profile incident.

i'd be all in favour of arming the gardai. i also like the notion of tazers as a non lethal approach

They should have shot him in the finger. I don't think the shooting in abbeylara was in question. It was the events leading up to the shooting that were reviewed.

OhNoYouDidn't

k_mac wrote: »

Two incidents in ten years. There have been a lot more times when weapons have been used and everything goes fine. They just don't get reported in the papers. As this seems to be the extent of your research you might not be aware of them.

I know of two Gardaí who have been shot in the last three years. If you read the paper you will see that gardaí in Donegal had a gun pulled on them last week. And a few months ago an off duty garda wrestled a gun from a man in Wetmanstown who has trying to shoot someone. Guns get pulled on Gardaí a lot more than you would think.

So we aren't far off the statistical fact that an innocent person is more likely to be shot by a Garda than a Garda shot by a criminal. Would introducing more guns into the equation help?

I'm not doubting the Gardai do a tough job and all those clichés, but I see no evidence that arming them will see a reduction in these incidences, if anything the opposite.

Non lethal weapons like tazers seem to be the common sense way forward.

OhNoYouDidn't

aDeener wrote: »

was that man in abbeylara not firing at the gardai? if so what were they expected to do?

jerry mccabe is a very high profile incident.

i'd be all in favour of arming the gardai. i also like the notion of tazers as a non lethal approach

Jerry McCabe was armed....

aDeener

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Jerry McCabe was armed....

fair enough, did not know that

MagicSean

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

So we aren't far off the statistical fact that an innocent person is more likely to be shot by a Garda than a Garda shot by a criminal. Would introducing more guns into the equation help?

I'm not doubting the Gardai do a tough job and all those clichés, but I see no evidence that arming them will see a reduction in these incidences, if anything the opposite.

Non lethal weapons like tazers seem to be the common sense way forward.

How do you figure?

OhNoYouDidn't

k_mac wrote: »

How do you figure?

In the last ten years one Garda has been shot and injured.

Over the same timeframe the Gardaí have shot and killed two of their own.

Statistically, Gardaí are more likely to be fatally shot by another Garda than a criminal.

Flamed Diving

I think the army should be sent into gangland areas.

They do **** all else.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

When you look at how some Gardai behave, giving weapons to rank and file Gardai is a scary prospect. Check this recent link from the Sunday Tribune below on how they tortured a man in a station and tried to open a recently healed wound. It was then covered up. Sick.

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2010/apr/04/assault-claims-against-gardai-left-out-of-report/?q=gardai

SeanW

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Tazer guns would be a good example of an effective non lethal device. Ok so not as effective in all situations, such as gang activity, but give the average guard on the street these and the more senior & specialist teams "real" firearms & appropriate training

No! I would prefer the guards got real guns as opposed to Tasers because in the U.S, where Tasers were originally billed as a non-lethal alternative to guns, they instead ended up being used as a general unruly-person control and a replacement for getting physical, e.g. into a fight. Also, not everyone walks away unscathed after being tased, because the electricity messes up the person pretty badly (really it's a partial electrocution), some people have had chronic heart problems afterwards and the like.

If the Gardai need better equipment, give them a gun, proper training, and crystal clear guidelines on when/how to use it.

douglashyde

I'd also imagine that they would want a pay rise if they where to handle guns.

Really thought, we should be taking guns out of the country, not bringing more in.

However, the average Joe isnt going to come across a gun weilding scumbag but rather a knife weilding one.. There should be zero tolerence on knife crime, only the scum of the earth would carry one on the street and they should be treated as such.

MagicSean

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

In the last ten years one Garda has been shot and injured.

Over the same timeframe the Gardaí have shot and killed two of their own.

Statistically, Gardaí are more likely to be fatally shot by another Garda than a criminal.

Like I said I know of two gardaí myself in the last 3 years. You're basing your stats on newspaper reports.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-18706115_ITM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1028/dublin.html

There's two more in the last six years.

MagicSean

SeanW wrote: »

No! I would prefer the guards got real guns as opposed to Tasers because in the U.S, where Tasers were originally billed as a non-lethal alternative to guns, they instead ended up being used as a general unruly-person control and a replacement for getting physical, e.g. into a fight. Also, not everyone walks away unscathed after being tased, because the electricity messes up the person pretty badly (really it's a partial electrocution), some people have had chronic heart problems afterwards and the like.

If the Gardai need better equipment, give them a gun, proper training, and crystal clear guidelines on when/how to use it.

Whats wrong with using a taser rather than get in a fight?

OhNoYouDidn't

k_mac wrote: »

Like I said I know of two gardaí myself in the last 3 years. You're basing your stats on newspaper reports.

http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-18706115_ITM

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/1028/dublin.html

There's two more in the last six years.

Ok, fair dues. Gardai are only 33% more likely to get shot by a criminal than another Garda.

The point being, that while one is too many, there simply isn't enough gun crime against Gardaí to justify this debate. The amount of them getting slashed and stabbed is more worrying.

IrishTonyO

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Ok, fair dues. Gardai are only 33% more likely to get shot by a criminal than another Garda.

The point being, that while one is too many, there simply isn't enough gun crime against Gardaí to justify this debate. The amount of them getting slashed and stabbed is more worrying.

do you think as many would be slashed or stabbed if they were carrying a gun?

irishh_bob

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Abbylara
Abbeyleix.

But aside from that, when was the last time a gun got pulled on a Garda?

abbeylara has been blown way out of proportion by the media , they shot and killed an unhinged fruitcake who was well known in the area as not being all in it , he wouldnt have gotten two yards while pointing a gun at the cops in america

bigdogbarking

Flamed Diving wrote: »

I think the army should be sent into gangland areas.

They do **** all else.

Aye good man, that must be the most stupid post i've ever read?what information do you even base this statement on? Whinging in the comfort of your armchair on internet forums?

Do You even know what the Irish Defence Forces do?

paddyland

There ARE armed Gardai, and they are routinely available in specific situations where armed response is required. And that's fine.

In the meantime, I do not want to live in a society where every Garda on the street is armed. It is total overkill, is unnecessary, and will be the first step towards an uncomfortable and oppressive police state atmosphere.

The US is decades ahead of us in this respect, and one only has to look at the behaviour of some cops on YouTube and elsewhere. There is a propensity in the human condition for irresponsibility. That propensity is there in some Gardai too, just like in all walks of life.

There is no requirement for arms at present. The requirements are for a judicial system that delivers accountability, rather than letting criminals off scot free. That's where the problem is, and it would be better if that issue was highlighted rather than feeding the police state fascists who would have us all fingerprinted and photographed every time we leave our front door.

SeanW

k_mac wrote: »

Whats wrong with using a taser rather than get in a fight?

Tasers are billed as a "non lethal alternative to gun" when they are neither "non lethal" or an "alternative."

They can be extremely painful, and harmful to the target and sometimes even fatal, and are used much more liberally than a gun is, with "avoiding a fight" being the least of their uses.

Take a look at this video for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84KnVn0HbuU

a 30 second Google Videos search for Taser abuse will provide much more interesting material.

Police forces worldwide have a long and bloody history of brutality which is why I don't trust them with another painful, harmful maybe-non-lethal-maybe-lethal weapon, and it requires an extremely blind faith in authroity believe this is a great idea, which quite frankly doesn't surprise me given your posts on the internet censorship thread.

bonzos

Lets teach them to have a bit of manners first when dealing with people before we start talking about giving them guns:rolleyes:

Flamed Diving

bigdogbarking wrote: »

Do You even know what the Irish Defence Forces do?

Yes. Nothing. Why not defend our country from a threat to the state by driving their green Tonka trucks into gangland areas and doing what they're supposedly trained to do?

bonzos

bigdogbarking wrote: »

Aye good man, that must be the most stupid post i've ever read?what information do you even base this statement on? Whinging in the comfort of your armchair on internet forums?

Do You even know what the Irish Defence Forces do?

Drink and gamble???