SF dynastic development

simonj

One positive thing about SF was a lack of dynastic castes, but we see its development in Kerry North.

When Martin Ferris went to Dail Eireann in 2002, his daughter Toiréasa was to replace him in Kerry CoCo.
Although he failed in his attempt to gain a seat as an MEP, Toiréasa was put forward in the last Euro elections, by virtue of the fact she was his daughter.

No doubt, when it is his time to step down as a TD, she will be the leading contender to replace him as the SF candidate in Kerry

I also think there should have been proper Dail questions asked about Martins collection of the killers of Garda McCabe from prison.

Denerick

This country has a revolting tradition for nepotism. I blame the makeup of our electoral system, which still overemphasises rural areas. Ireland is pretty much a cosmopolitan country at this stage with several big cities, its time our parliament reflected that.

simonj

Well, the only democratic way to do that is move to a list electorial system, and FG's suggestion of 15 candidates to be elected in this way is not ambitious enough, as they have a vested interest in the staus quo and the perpetuation of a two party system based on constituancy based politics.

In addition the practice in Councils where a seat becomes vacated and co-opting occurs and it goes to the next of kin or a Party Member must be replaced with a by-election.

Dannyboy83

Martin Ferris, John O'Donoghue, Jackie Healy Rae.........it speaks for itself tbh.

When Jackie Healy Rae is the best of a bad bunch.......................

FTA69

I'd know Toiréasa, and in fairness to her she has never stood on her auld fella's coat trails and has been an active Republican in their own right since her early teens. I wouldn't compare her to the likes of Beverly Cooper Flynn or Healy Rae's son.

simonj

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd know Toiréasa, and in fairness to her she has never stood on her auld fella's coat trails and has been an active Republican in their own right since her early teens. I wouldn't compare her to the likes of Beverly Cooper Flynn or Healy Rae's son.

Are you serious??? She was co-opted - not elected - in 2003 to the council seat held by her father when he went to the Dail, so please - pull the other one.
Nepotism is nepotism, regardless of ability

skearon

simonj wrote: »

I also think there should have been proper Dail questions asked about Martins collection of the killers of Garda McCabe from prison.

Martin Ferris TD, proudly collected the convicted killers of Detective Garda Jerry McCabe from Castlerea Prison. SF can’t have it both ways in a democracy; the party says it wants a place in democratic politics, whilst at the same time its prominent representatives continue to inflict further hurt and pain by their public solidarity with convicted killers. Clearly Gerry Adam’s comment “They haven't gone away you know” still holds true today.

FTA69

She was also co-opted due to the fact she was a prominent Sinn Féin member in her own right, having previously been heavily involved in Ógra Shinn Féin and the local organisation in north Kerry. Similarly that's only one case really of someone's child assuming elected office, it isn't a trend as such; and knowing her I can say she's always thought for herself so to speak.

FTA69

skearon wrote: »

. Clearly Gerry Adam’s comment “They haven't gone away you know” still holds true today.

Eh... it doesn't really considering they have gone away and they've no arsenal of any significance.

Flamed Diving

Please don't let this triviality overshadow the fact that SF are rightly associated with violent criminals. We are really grasping at straws if their apparent distaste for political nepotism is somehow a counter-balance to this.

Thanks.

simonj

FTA69 wrote: »

She was also co-opted due to the fact she was a prominent Sinn Féin member in her own right, having previously been heavily involved in Ógra Shinn Féin and the local organisation in north Kerry. Similarly that's only one case really of someone's child assuming elected office, it isn't a trend as such; and knowing her I can say she's always thought for herself so to speak.

Being co-opted is being co-opted, no matter how you spin it - and nepotism is nepotism, it would not matter if she was Nelson Mandella, her initial position was as a result of an accident of birth, something Robert Emmet warned us about at the dock - SF seem to have forgotten those words despite branding themselves as the only true republicans.
With the council seat she inherited her Daddys constituancy machine, so yes - she did ride in on daddys coat tails, as have a dispropotionate number of FF, FG and increasingly Labour

and in fairness flamingdiving, I did point out the taxi service daddy provided, but forgot to mention the running of guns into the republic to subvert a democratically elected government that was not recognised by SF

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

Eh... it doesn't really considering they have gone away and they've no arsenal of any significance.

A mindset is more dangerous and subversive than any "arsenal".

In the right (wrong) mindset, even a car is a weapon.

steelcityblues

You can add Arthur Spring to the list of Kerry political nepotism!

PomBear

I have seen Toireasa on numerous occasions, although she got through because of her father, she is a great politician and worthy of acclaim by her own right

FTA69

Being co-opted is being co-opted, no matter how you spin it

Nepotism is giving your relative a position regardless of their ability, often above others of greater ability. After Martin himself, Toiréasa was one of the most prominent Sinn Féin figures in north Kerry. Are you saying Ferris should have had someone else co-opted simply because Toiréasa happened to be his daughter?

Liam Byrne,

A mindset is more dangerous and subversive than any "arsenal".

In the right (wrong) mindset, even a car is a weapon.

True.

And look at Sinn Féin's mindset today, they have signed up to the GFA which ensures British sovereignty in the north of Ireland will remain unchallenged, furthermore they fully support a British police force, the PSNI and encourage Nationalists to inform to that organisation. Under St Andrew's they have signed up to an agreement which ensures the police force they're shouting about changing will have a security agenda run exclusively by MI5. They are involved in power sharing in a devolved British assembly.

In the south they have abandoned any semblance of radical politics and are now generally a centre-left (whenever it suits) party who would jump into coalition with Fianna Fáil tomorrow.

You might view them as some sort of sinister and well-organised machine on the verge of trying to overthrow the state but in reality all they are is a mediocre and unremarkable political party.

You may disagree with their recent past, but it's a past that most political parties in Ireland have had at one stage.

Liam Byrne

FTA69 wrote: »

And look at Sinn Féin's mindset today, they have signed up to the GFA which....

....was voted for 93% of the whole island, so I won't give them any credit for respecting the wishes of that much of a majority.

FTA69 wrote: »

In the south they have abandoned any semblance of radical politics and are now generally a centre-left (whenever it suits) party who would jump into coalition with Fianna Fáil tomorrow.

I can't believe that you're giving me a new reason to hate them ? :eek:

FTA69 wrote: »

You may disagree with their recent past, but it's a past that most political parties in Ireland have had at one stage.

They - far too recently - refused to condemn murder and collected said-same murderers from jail.

They also still assume the worst of the "other side" while demanding equivalent things from the "other side" that they would never, ever agree to themselves; the only "benefit of the doubt" that they give is to their own.

I will acknowledge that there are other parties who would have this mindset and just not show it (e.g. some of FF would - probably - collect Ray Burke or even Ahern from jail if - IMHO - justice is ever done).....and yes, this "hidden" mindset would be more sinister and sickening.

But it doesn't negate the fact that the mindset is still unacceptable; changed enough to become "more" acceptable "recently", but still unacceptable.

FTA69

...was voted for 93% of the whole island, so I won't give them any credit for respecting the wishes of that much of a majority.

I never said they should be given credit, I'm just pointing out the fact that that spelled the beginning of their transformation into centrist, constitutional politics.

They - far too recently - refused to condemn murder and collected said-same murderers from jail.

Big deal. You had Fianna Fáil TDs well into the 1930s carrying around unlicensed firearms and ranting about how they hadn't killed enough Free Staters during the Civil War. The fact Ferris picked up McCauley and Walsh at Castlerea doesn't change the fact that politically and organisationally Sinn Féin is nothing special, all they have is a past that's more recent than others. That's it.

But it doesn't negate the fact that the mindset is still unacceptable; changed enough to become "more" acceptable "recently", but still unacceptable.

That's fair enough.

simonj

steelcityblues wrote: »

You can add Arthur Spring to the list of Kerry political nepotism!

Oh yeah - for sure, thats why I was so dissapponted reading that in a speech by Margaret Ritchie (SDLP) at the Labour conference in Galway

"the next election in the Republic would be a great day for the Labour Party. “And on that night I will be watching a TV, in Downpatrick, looking out for one particular result. The name Spring, restored to its rightful place, heading the poll in Kerry North.”

And the SDLP, the party of Mallon and Hume, a party based on fairness, honesty and equality should not be supporting this tribal mentality.

Roll on the electorial list system.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...268629876.html

simonj

FTA69 wrote: »

Are you saying Ferris should have had someone else co-opted simply because Toiréasa happened to be his daughter?

Yes, and to add to that, I believe that when a seat is vacated then there should be a by-election within 6 months.

This acceptance of nepotism is anti-democratic, and it is Amhran Nua policy that all co-option should be stopped, as inevitably it is a family member or party member who is bought in.

That seat belongs to the people, not the incumbent - its that simple

Joey the lips

simonj wrote: »

One positive thing about SF was a lack of dynastic castes, but we see its development in Kerry North.

When Martin Ferris went to Dail Eireann in 2002, his daughter Toiréasa was to replace him in Kerry CoCo.
Although he failed in his attempt to gain a seat as an MEP, Toiréasa was put forward in the last Euro elections, by virtue of the fact she was his daughter.

No doubt, when it is his time to step down as a TD, she will be the leading contender to replace him as the SF candidate in Kerry

I also think there should have been proper Dail questions asked about Martins collection of the killers of Garda McCabe from prison.

There is nothing more condesending than another politician trying to make out he actually cares about someone so far away.... The reason I say this is your political allience is nailed to your signature and your hardly likely to say anything positive.

Every person would want a family member to follow him and its the electroate that will ultimatly decide this not martin ferris.

As for the collection of the castlerea lad. They are republicians, he is a rublician. He actuialy already said this in the dail.

As has been shown with michael lowry it does not matter what a TD does in another area if he is looking after his area he will be returned

However if like fianna failure you dump your politician like they dumped ray burke and are guility of the same thing then this is worthy of discussion but ferris has never renaged on his alliegence and although I am not from north or south kerry

i fail to see who this is anying but a rant...

simonj

I am not a politician, but I do care what happens elsewhere, we need to move away from gombeenism and the perpetuation of a two party system that promotes nepotism.

Sinn Fein, when it suited them, denied involvement with the robbery that resulted in the murder of Gerry McCabe, only after the GFA did they insist his killers be released under those terms

Joey the lips

simonj wrote: »

I am not a politician, but I do care what happens elsewhere, we need to move away from gombeenism and the perpetuation of a two party system that promotes nepotism.

Sinn Fein, when it suited them, denied involvement with the robbery that resulted in the murder of Gerry McCabe, only after the GFA did they insist his killers be released under those terms

your right about one thing you are not a politician

sinn fein never denied involvement in any robbery because the were not accused of robbery....

its only after the good friday agreement that all IRA and UVF prisioners were to be released. if you were old enough you voted for it.

if you manage to actually say anything true i will agree with you

DoireNod

simonj wrote: »

And the SDLP, the party of Mallon and Hume...

Can't imagine that Gerry Fitt would have appreciated this label.

simonj wrote: »

a party based on fairness, honesty and equality should not be supporting this tribal mentality.

How are the SDLP supporting a tribal mentality?

Liam Byrne

Joey the lips wrote: »

As for the collection of the castlerea lad. They are republicians, he is a rublician.

I'm an Irishman and Ray Burke is an Irishman. I wouldn't collect him from jail.

What's your point re them both being "republicans" ?

They're criminals who tried to rob money and murdered a Garda.

Whatever else they have "in common" with Ferris should be irrelevant.

Joey the lips

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm an Irishman and Ray Burke is an Irishman. I wouldn't collect him from jail.

What's your point re them both being "republicans" ?

They're criminals who tried to rob money and murdered a Garda.

Whatever else they have "in common" with Ferris should be irrelevant.

No you wouldnt but by your own admission your a fine gael man so your hardly likely to support Ray Burke.... I wonder what your feelings were on michael lowry receiving his share of back handers and his subsaquent re election.

Also there is a difference. You dont support Ray Burkes common goal...ie greed and self preservation

where as martin ferris being an ex IRA man does support the goals of the castlerae 5 and although he does not agree with how they achieve them he supports them.... A man of principles imo even if I do or dont agree with thm...

paddyland

Joey the lips wrote: »

where as martin ferris being an ex IRA man does support the goals of the castlerae 5 and although he does not agree with how they achieve them he supports them.... A man of principles imo even if I do or dont agree with thm...

What were their goals when they shot two Gardai of the Irish Republic in cold blood? To 'get away?' Martin Ferris is a great man alright for 'supporting' cowards like these.

simonj

Joey the lips wrote: »

sinn fein never denied involvement in any robbery because the were not accused of robbery....

its only after the good friday agreement that all IRA and UVF prisioners were to be released. if you were old enough you voted for it.

if you manage to actually say anything true i will agree with you

The killing of Detective McCabe happened four months after the breakdown of the first IRA ceasefire in 1996.

The so called Army Council of the IRA initially denied any involvement, but later admitted that McCabes murderers were members of the IRA

Initially, the killing was denounced by the leadership of Sinn Féin, but later the party lobbied for the early release of McCabe's killers under the terms of the Belfast Agreement

Sinn Fein was always the political wing of the IRA, with several MLAs having aledgedly been on the ruling council.

The fact of the matter is these guys murdered a cop, and when the got out early a TD from SF provided them with a taxi service

Joey the lips

paddyland wrote: »

What were their goals when they shot two Gardai of the Irish Republic in cold blood? To 'get away?' Martin Ferris is a great man alright for 'supporting' cowards like these.

Is this what your discussing.... That you think he is great for supporting a coward.... mehh. Not interesting

simonj wrote: »

The killing of Detective McCabe happened four months after the breakdown of the first IRA ceasefire in 1996.

The so called Army Council of the IRA initially denied any involvement, but later admitted that McCabes murderers were members of the IRA

Initially, the killing was denounced by the leadership of Sinn Féin, but later the party lobbied for the early release of McCabe's killers under the terms of the Belfast Agreement

Sinn Fein was always the political wing of the IRA, with several MLAs having aledgedly been on the ruling council.

The fact of the matter is these guys murdered a cop, and when the got out early a TD from SF provided them with a taxi service

So you would like the dail to ask why martin ferris offered to be a taxi.... as for the other "aledgedly" crap.

I am sorry to say your allagations are boring anf totally uninteresting and if you a have 5min I can refere you to a dozen thread that point to the same thing and come to no conclusion..

Boreing boreing boreing...

paddyland

I'm sorry you are 'bored' discussing crooks who shoot Gardai in cold blood to get away. Because it sure as hell would be interesting to hear lucid and intelligent defence of it. Defence of it is obviously outside your powers of discussion.

Martin Ferris 'supports' thugs who shoot Gardai in cold blood. He is now going to be the first Sinn Féin TD to introduce nepotism into Sinn Féin politics, according to the OP.

Good man, Martin, a blinding example of Sinn Féin politics combined with Kerry gombeenism. My aren't we developing as a nation?

Joey the lips

paddyland wrote: »

I'm sorry you are 'bored' discussing crooks who shoot Gardai in cold blood to get away. Because it sure as hell would be interesting to hear lucid and intelligent defence of it. Defence of it is obviously outside your powers of discussion.

Martin Ferris 'supports' thugs who shoot Gardai in cold blood. He is now going to be the first Sinn Féin TD to introduce nepotism into Sinn Féin politics, according to the OP.

Good man, Martin, a blinding example of Sinn Féin politics combined with Kerry gombeenism. My aren't we developing as a nation?

No need to apologies. as for a defence. I have no interest in defending those who shot gerry mccabe.I never claimed to. Are you the op... because your as confusing however the o.poster although its hard to figure what he said he actually asked for martin ferris to give some kind of accountability....

I assessed his logic to be a shareing of common goals... This is the only rational conclusion. You can see that cant you. Either that or the castle rae lads paid for the taxi and I doubt that dont you.

Again as i pointed out... This is totally void of discussion...Why the op even managed to squeeze his daughter into the discussion....WHY FFS?

Perhaps this is better suited for afterhours because me carrying it on actaully gives some kind of defence to an arguement of absolute no credabiulity.

Annasopra

simonj wrote: »

Yes, and to add to that, I believe that when a seat is vacated then there should be a by-election within 6 months.

This acceptance of nepotism is anti-democratic, and it is Amhran Nua policy that all co-option should be stopped, as inevitably it is a family member or party member who is bought in.

That seat belongs to the people, not the incumbent - its that simple

I didn't know this forum allowed political parties to advertise themselves

simonj

I thought the same about apologists for murderers

Joey the lips

simonj wrote: »

I thought the same about apologists for murderers

:rolleyes: who has apologised for murderers....Are you talking about someone else now.... I detect split personalities here.

I thought you were bableing on about martin ferris...

simonj

Well ferris was the one who collected some of the people involved in the murder of Garda McCabe

This was an action which junior - even though some posters here say she has a mind of her own - 'was not authorised' to condemn

Joey the lips

simonj wrote: »

Well ferris was the one who collected some of the people involved in the murder of Garda McCabe

This was an action which junior - even though some posters here say she has a mind of her own - 'was not authorised' to condemn

Jesus your getting desperate.... Have you seen how old those articles are.

Really now... Its interesting how mud slinging is all you can resort too.... After all your policies are so strong.

yawn....:rolleyes:

Sleepy

Surely any political party is going to result in the creation of small dynasties?

Children usually get their politics as ignorantly as they get their religion - by accident of birth so it's no surprise that many of them go into the parties their parents were in, know the important people in that organisation from an early age and have greater access to them than someone joining because they agree with the party's policies.

It's sad that things work this way but since we're social creatures and don't teach our school-children about political systems, our system of governance in Ireland or the basics of economics (can't imagine Sinn Fein getting many converts if we did! ) what can you expect but for the majority of children to blindly follow their parents politics?

Amhran Nua

Joey the lips wrote: »

The reason I say this is your political allience is nailed to your signature and your hardly likely to say anything positive.

Its fairly clear that you have nothing to say at all, if thats the extent of your criticism.

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I didn't know this forum allowed political parties to advertise themselves

I know for a fact that back seat moderation isn't allowed.

Joey the lips wrote: »

Its interesting how mud slinging is all you can resort too....

Mud slinging is what Joey the lips calls the murder of a member of An Garda Síochána by a set of joyriding nimrods who were disowned by their own terrorist organisation. Mud slinging is posing for photos with these idiots and picking them up with a grin plastered all over your face. I wonder what Garda McCabe's family would say to Joey the lips, if only he wasn't an anonymous internet poster sitting at home paddling a keyboard.

ejmaztec

Sleepy wrote: »

Surely any political party is going to result in the creation of small dynasties?

Children usually get their politics as ignorantly as they get their religion - by accident of birth so it's no surprise that many of them go into the parties their parents were in, know the important people in that organisation from an early age and have greater access to them than someone joining because they agree with the party's policies.

It's sad that things work this way but since we're social creatures and don't teach our school-children about political systems, our system of governance in Ireland or the basics of economics (can't imagine Sinn Fein getting many converts if we did! ) what can you expect but for the majority of children to blindly follow their parents politics?

The real problem that I have with nepotism is that children, usually having different skills to their parents, are pushed into politics when they really haven't got much of a clue about what they're doing.

There's another North Kerry dynasty i.e. McEllistrim, where the 1922 gun-toting version started the ball rolling. He may have been good at his job (after he de-commissioned himself), but the political skills of the 2010 teacher version are questionable (and that's being polite).

Whatever people say about the embryonic Ferris dynasty, Ms Ferris may well be a more skillful politician than her father.

The world is full of ex-terrorist politicians and leaders, but no progress would ever be made if past terrorist actions were dragged up each time that a civilised political discussion was taking place. It'll probably take three or four generations for tempers to die down here.