Expanded without PP?

Buyingahouse

Hey gang,

Sorry if this has been addressed before, as I'm quite new here. My partner and I are looking at buying our first house and have found an absolute dream of a house that's just at the top end of our price range.

However, we're starting to think that it's too good to be true. It's heavily (HEAVILY) extended and I just can't seem to find any records of applications for planning permission on the county council website. I know this isn't necessarily airtight evidence that permission was never sought, but should this be a red flag? I know a good bit about extensions that are exempt from planning permission, but this joint has been extended at least twice at the back (once at two levels) and the overall size has been increased by about 75% (60 sq.m.). Is the onus on the seller to provide some sort of proof that everything is on the up-and-up? Is the worst that can happen be that the extension have to be torn down? Basically, can I have all the information possible without consulting with a solicitor?

Thanks lads.

Poor Uncle Tom

Your solicitor would normally ask for a survey and planning search to be done on any property being bought which should highlight any problems with unauthorised developments among other things. Your solicitor will then normally ask for any anomalies to be regularised before negotiating the purchase. It would be very unwise to buy with any problems regarding unauthorised developments looming over a property.

Regularising unauthorised developments usually means a retention planning application, which can be messy. If there are more than one unauthorised extension to a property I would walk away from it, regardless of retention planning permission. If someone cuts corners with the paperwork, it usually means corners are cut with the development as well.

Mellor

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

Regularising unauthorised developments usually means a retention planning application, which can be messy. If there are more than one unauthorised extension to a property I would walk away from it, regardless of retention planning permission. If someone cuts corners with the paperwork, it usually means corners are cut with the development as well.

completely agree.

Also, all additions have been in place 7 years or more, then they can't ask you to tear it down. But it still needs to get planning sorted via retention (it doesn't get PP automatically, as some will suggest).

Planning search will see you in a better place to decide.
Guys, could somebody suggest a cost for a 60 sq.m retention. I can't get the LA fees page to open here.

Buyingahouse

Thanks a million for the advice, gang. I sort of knew all along that I'd need to talk to a solicitor to sort out the nitty gritty. Good to hear from non-lawyers, though!

muffler

Mellor wrote: »

Guys, could somebody suggest a cost for a 60 sq.m retention. I can't get the LA fees page to open here.

€150.

€2.50/m2 subject to min. fee of €102 - thats for domestic stuff.

muffler

I agree entirely with what the guys posted above.

CRenegade

I agree totally with the guys above. I would be carefull about unauthorised development especially these days. The Department of Environment have in recent months put serious pressure on Local Authorities regarding unauthorised dev and are clamping down on it alot more - as the planning application dry up the LA's have to keep busy.

Plus I heard a rumour about alterations to the new Planning Bill regarding unauthorised developemnt and even development over the 7 year limit, Gormely is trying to sort out all unauthorised dev and it could get alot stricter with the new planning Act.

sinnerboy

muffler wrote: »

€150.

€2.50/m2 subject to min. fee of €102 - thats for domestic stuff.

Actually Muffler - around the Dublin the €2.50 is applied to the entire extended property not just the extension part ......

sinnerboy

Mellor wrote: »

Also, all additions have been in place 7 years or more, then they can't ask you to tear it down. But it still needs to get planning sorted via retention (it doesn't get PP automatically, as some will suggest).

Correct - and so be very careful

From experience a client wanted a cert of compliance for what he thought was an exempt development .

It wasn't . But the time limit for enforcement action was expired .

So I discreetly established with the local planner that if a retention application was - that it would NOT be successful .

So OP - the only way to proceed with this for is on the basis that the Vendor gets his act together . Don't attempt to inherit his mess .

PS - I don't wish to be drawn out on any of the particulars of my clients case please

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

Actually Muffler - around the Dublin the €2.50 is applied to the entire extended property not just the extension part ......

without trying to go off topic... but thats just PLAIN WRONG...

another example of a LA blatantly flouting planning law...

the regs plainly and clearly state "2.50 for each
square metre of gross floor space for which permission is sought,"

how can they charge for floor area for which retention is NOT being sought??

plus, IIRC doesnt that bring most extensions into the realms of them being able to charge 'development contributions' on??

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

without trying to go off topic... but thats just PLAIN WRONG...

another example of a LA blatantly flouting planning law...

Couldnt agree more.

Id love to see the basis used for calculating the fees in accordance with the 2000 regs.

Was this ever challenged sinnerboy?

sinnerboy

muffler wrote: »

Couldnt agree more.

Id love to see the basis used for calculating the fees in accordance with the 2000 regs.

Was this ever challenged sinnerboy?

Informally - yes. The LA argument was that the original property was no longer in accordance with Condition 1 of the original permission i.e. " built in accordance with drawings and documents lodged ".

On that basis they argued that retention was required for the whole building . We informed the client who simply agreed to " pay the b******s .

The retention permission was granted , no contributions conditions were attached .

sydthebeat

sinnerboy wrote: »

Informally - yes. The LA argument was that the original property was no longer in accordance with Condition 1 of the original permission i.e. " built in accordance with drawings and documents lodged ".

On that basis they argued that retention was required for the whole building . We informed the client who simply agreed to " pay the b******s .

The retention permission was granted , no contributions conditions were attached .

by that logic exempted extensions can only be applied to pre 63 dwellings...

was this a case of an "extension" being built at the same time as the dwelling?? if so, we've had similar cases and i can understand the requirement for full retention in these particular situations...

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

Informally - yes. The LA argument was that the original property was no longer in accordance with Condition 1 of the original permission i.e. " built in accordance with drawings and documents lodged ".

On that basis they argued that retention was required for the whole building . We informed the client who simply agreed to " pay the b******s .

The retention permission was granted , no contributions conditions were attached .

Exception rather than the rule so.

sinnerboy

sydthebeat wrote: »

was this a case of an "extension" being built at the same time as the dwelling?? if so, we've had similar cases and i can understand the requirement for full retention in these particular situations...

Syd does it again !

It was Syd . I have called an LA to double-check and in the case of an extension added after completion of the original structure - for which retention is applied for after the event - only m2 of the extended part attract a fee .


(Reminder to self - some days better to stay in bed )

muffler

sinnerboy wrote: »

Syd does it again !

It was Syd . I have called an LA to double-check and in the case of an extension added after completion of the original structure - for which retention is applied for after the event - only m2 of the extended part attract a fee .


(Reminder to self - some days better to stay in bed )

sinnerboy

muffler

Glad you seen the funny side to that B.