Chicken dilemma

Sapsorrow

So been thinking of late about building a chicken coup out in the field this summer so as to have fresh eggs and whatnot. My main problem is after talking to my mum I've been enlightened to the fact that chickens only lay efficiently for about 2 or 3 years after which point they were traditionally killed for eating on farms. So I have no doubt in my mind that this is what happens on a regualar industrial scaled farm too. So not my dilemma is this, is it more ethical to raise your own animals for eggs so they can have a decent happy stress free life running about the place scratching and being in the sun shine even if it means after 2-3 years you have to kill them or is that inherantly hypcritical? I realise now that eggs aren't actually vegetarian but I think raising them yourself is a viable and relatively humane alternative to buying them from the supermarket as I'm sure the farmers who supply them to there wouldn't be using a very humane method to kill them. What do ye reckon? How wrong is it?

smellslikeshoes

Who is to say if you're keeping them in your own backyard you have to kill them after their peak year or so though? My parents used to keep chickens up to a few years back, they were essentially treated like pets and were let live out their lives. The fact is it's for purely economic reasons that chickens are killed after they leave their peak laying period, the price of feeding them outweighs how many eggs they lay, they still lay plenty of eggs though.

Btw I think for the most part, laying hens have an economic laying period of about one year so including growing time commercial farms cull after about a year and a half.

Chiffchaff

I have been keeping a few hens for about 5 years now. Between the foxes, neighbour's dogs, etc the problem is not getting rid of them but trying to hang onto them. They are great craic, very soothing to watch and I would highly recommend having them. We have clocked our own chickens over the years and there is really nothing like the sensation of seeing a chicken peck its way out of a shell. Oh - and the eggs taste great too. I would never kill one.

Sapsorrow

Well I wouldn't have a problem with keeping them forever and just getting more chicks as I needed them but for two reasons: firstly I rent a house and will have to move one day so having loads of old chickens that are only fit to be pets wouldn't really help finding a new house as it would be impossible to find someone who would take them off my hands and secondly I couldn't afford to keep on animals (poor student + recession = not good prospects) that wouldn't be of use as I already have five cats and a dog that cost me a rake of money each week. I would try to keep them as long as possible though.

Sapsorrow

Chiffchaff wrote: »

We have clocked our own chickens over the years and there is really nothing like the sensation of seeing a chicken peck its way out of a shell.

Sorry but can you explain this bit please!

Sapsorrow

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

they still lay plenty of eggs though.

Oh ok so there's not really a chicken menopause as such then? Like a three year old bird, how often would that lay in the summer?

At the moment I get my eggs in the local farmers market. Off a lady who keeps 10 hens, and has a friend who keeps ducks.
I know the animals are well treated.
Ok so they will be killed if ever they live that long. But at least they won't know it is coming, like they would in a mass slaughter situation.
And people do eat meat, so these animals will be taking the place at the dinner table. Of creatures that might not have had nearly the quality of life.

It is wrong yes, but in your situation. (K has ibs and alot of food doesn't agree with her) You need a decent protein source. And eggs are giving you a good return with less hurt to animals.

Just because you make the odd bad decision, it doesn't negate the effects of chosing to avoid killing animals most of the time.

I'm buying a couple of Sussex hens this weekend.
They'll probably end up being pets to be honest, actually killing an animal you have bonded with. Would be very hard for me.

Chiffchaff

Sorry, I am not sure if "clocked" is a correct verb. A clocking hen is one that sits on a nest to hatch the eggs. The name comes from the sound that the hen makes when she gets broody. You put fertilized eggs under the hen and approx 21 days later little chicks peck their way out of the eggs. Fantastic!

Chiffchaff

Chiffchaff wrote: »

Oh - and the eggs taste great too.

They are higher in Omega 3 too.

smellslikeshoes

khrystyna100 wrote: »

Oh ok so there's not really a chicken menopause as such then? Like a three year old bird, how often would that lay in the summer?

They do but it's long after they become not economically viable. Will try explain it the best way I can.

They start laying properly around the 20 week old mark, reach peak around the 30 week mark and then are usually culled around the 60-70 week mark, but most will still lay a couple of times a week till around the 3 year old area. But they live till they are 5-6 years old. So potentially up to 3 years without laying.

One thing I will say though is if you do end up being in the situation where you have to cull them after they stop laying it will be much harder than just killing an animal. Chickens do make good pets and after keeping them a while it will be like killing a pet.

Sapsorrow

Moonbaby wrote: »

At the moment I get my eggs in the local farmers market. Off a lady who keeps 10 hens, and has a friend who keeps ducks.
I know the animals are well treated.
Ok so they will be killed if ever they live that long. But at least they won't know it is coming, like they would in a mass slaughter situation.
And people do eat meat, so these animals will be taking the place at the dinner table. Of creatures that might not have had nearly the quality of life.

It is wrong yes, but in your situation. (K has ibs and alot of food doesn't agree with her) You need a decent protein source. And eggs are giving you a good return with less hurt to animals.

Just because you make the odd bad decision, it doesn't negate the effects of chosing to avoid killing animals most of the time.

I'm buying a couple of Sussex hens this weekend.
They'll probably end up being pets to be honest, actually killing an animal you have bonded with. Would be very hard for me.

Thanks MB, please let me know how you get on with the hens thats so exciting! If I go ahead with it I'll be harassing you for help on how to look after them!

See thats partly how I feel, is that a large part of being a vegetarian is because you can't be sure how humane what you'd be buying would be otherwise but I have the upmost respect for people who hunt, fish or raise their own meat rather than buy it. I do think eating meat has a place in the world if it's done the right way (humanely, sustainably and respectfuly like the native americans traditionaly did) but it's being able to break free from the emotional ties that makes that so difficult for a veggie or vegans (naturally) to be able to come to terms with it and it needs to be on such a small scale compared to how we do it now (which is so excessive and greedy!).

Chiffchaff wrote: »

Sorry, I am not sure if "clocked" is a correct verb. A clocking hen is one that sits on a nest to hatch the eggs. The name comes from the sound that the hen makes when she gets broody. You put fertilized eggs under the hen and approx 21 days later little chicks peck their way out of the eggs. Fantastic!

Oh man that sounds amazing, I would love to learn how to arrange them to do that if I get them! I was racking my brain trying to think what 'pecking their way out of a shell' meant (duh!) I'm such a dope :rolleyes:

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

They do but it's long after they become not economically viable. Will try explain it the best way I can.

They start laying properly around the 20 week old mark, reach peak around the 30 week mark and then are usually culled around the 60-70 week mark, but most will still lay a couple of times a week till around the 3 year old area. But they live till they are 5-6 years old. So potentially up to 3 years without laying.

One thing I will say though is if you do end up being in the situation where you have to cull them after they stop laying it will be much harder than just killing an animal. Chickens do make good pets and after keeping them a while it will be like killing a pet.

Thanks so much SLS, you really know your stuff. 5-6 years isn't too long actually I reckon I could keep em that long I thought they would live way longer than that! I wouldn't be the one killing them, I have a friend who's a bit of a bear grills wannabe who's into foraging, hunting (for food of course), fishing, self-sufficiency etc so I'd get him down to do it and let him have them. I know what you mean though chickens are actually one of my favourite animals ironically I used to spend loads of time with the ones at the allotment I used to have they are so cuddly and soft.
Oh my mum said last time they had chickens they gave killing one a go (they were seriously broke back in the 70s) and Dad was so traumatised he went veggie for a few years after, he's a hardass oldschool kinda guy too!

smellslikeshoes

Actually thinking about it a bit more I probably shouldn't have given such a concrete estimate of how long they will live as it has a huge amount to do with the conditions they live in. And in your case you will be looking after them very well it might end up being well on the far side of 5-6 years.

smegmar

You could always sell a few eggs to make money to lower cost of keeping them. Well treated and happy hens make better eggs then factory farm bred battery hens. I'd be happy to buy them when ever your in Dublin and I'm sure many of the veggies on this forum would too.

I think it's completely ethical for you to keep the hens and let them live good lives especially if the would otherwise go to factory farms, think of yourself like Oskar Schindler.:)

sweet-rasmus

If you are buying them, knowing you would be killing them in the future... I just can't get my head around that one

Sapsorrow

Thanks smeg I'll give yes freebies if I get round to it I promise

I know what you mean Sweet rasmus, I probably wouldn't be able to do it, I'm more interested in knowing what other peoples perspectives on it from a veggie/vegan standpoint. My diet is seriously limited as it is, I'm off grain 99% of the time, can't eat very much fruit at all and am giving up beans/legumes too in an effort to sort out my IBS as thats a common aggravator for most folks so that leaves me with very few options nutritionaly especially for protein, nuts and seeds can only supply certain amino acids and in limited quantities.

smegmar

seriously it could be like "sponsor a chicken" thing, we all give some money and every so often we get to see the chickens we've saved from factory farms being happy and get high quality eggs too. if you get a load of veggies and people who are interested in animal welfare interested you could make a difference to alot of hens (and some money)

What would you do when a hen dies of natural causes? sell it, eat it or bury it?

Tar.Aldarion

I have no problem eating something that died naturally.

Friends keep chickens, they really are like pets with their personalities and so forth. They lay quite a lot of eggs. Hopefully get the chance to own them when I am older, looking forward to it.

is it more ethical to raise your own animals for eggs so they can have a decent happy stress free life running about the place scratching and being in the sun shine even if it means after 2-3 years you have to kill them or is that inherantly hypcritical?

The thing about it for me is lowering the amount of animals that are harmed due to me. So for instance, anything that causes the death of more animals is to be avoided, while I would still eat meat if it died naturally or was going to waste etc, although I never have.

If you are buying your own chickens with the intention of killing them I think that is worse than something like buying them off somebody like Moonbaby is in a farmers market. Realistically you aren't raising the amount of hens that person in a farmers market is killing and whilst that is still not ethically squeaky clean I think that is a better alternative than the former. The best option being the aforementioned having them in your garden until they depart, which is not feasible for everybody.

To be disingenuous for a moment, it's not always about being completely true to your morals (we all hurt animals one way or another) it's about living the best way we can, minimising suffering and trying to be the change we wish to see.

Getwellsoon

my dad's kept chickens for YEARS in the back garden, and they kept on laying for ages. He even kept them until they died! In the past though he gave the really old ones away to a local farmer who actually kept them in his farmyard and they just wandered around picking up little bits and corn and everthing! lol. You only need about 3 chickens, and even then you'll have tons of eggs you'll probably have to give some away!!