Limited Retrofit for Structured Phone and TV

gaelicyoda

Hi All,

We've just bought a two storey house in Co. Galway, and I was wondering if it's possible (or indeed if anyone has done it themselves!) to retrofit the existing single phone (RJ11? - looks like they are daisy chained together) and TV (standard coax) wall plates with:

Single standard phone socket => phone socket plus Cat5 data port
Single standard TV coax point => coax plus BNC type digital TV socket

without having to completely tear up the wall? [Please see attachments] I was hoping to be able to "fish" up a cable hook (i.e. string )using the existing cables to these sockets, and from there to distribute the new cabling through the existing chased runs (on ground floor) and stud partition wire runs (on first floor). Am I naive to think this is achievable with minimal disruption? The most important thing here is not to have to tear up our new walls, so with this in mind, what do people think we can achieve (if anything) given the setup shown in the photos?

Cheers,
GY

M cebee

the 'daisy-chained' phone wire is standard practice for basic phone wiring

for networks it'll be cat5/6 'home runs' so check the pipes ,see if they'll take 1 extra cat5

sounds unlikely-( you'd only use the existing conduits if it was practical),prob some surface wiring if you need data points

can't quite make out the ETU(phone box)- is the internal phone wiring brought out to it?

'standard practice' is a pipe through from ETU to 'eircom master socket' where the internal house wiring is terminated

mazthespark

up stairs should be straight forward as long as you can get into attic you could fish down from there into your rooms. if u plan on placing the patch panel or whatever in a downstairs room u could run a small trunking up in the corner of a room to get to the attic. or possibly a hotpress or closet mite suit better depending on intended cat 5 oultet locations.
if the house has a timber joist floor/ ceiling maybe you mite get away with lifting the floor in one room only and would be suprised where you could get from there.

if the house has hollow core possibly could fish around via spot lights etc.
another option would be to cut in a few access panels

or a better option but may be more expensive while your wiring your cat 5 have you thought about in house audio? speakers can be up to 6 inches in diameter perfect for access

also based in co. galway so send me a pm if you want me to have a look or need more advice.

gaelicyoda

M cebee wrote: »

the 'daisy-chained' phone wire is standard practice for basic phone wiring

for networks it'll be cat5/6 'home runs' so check the pipes ,see if they'll take 1 extra cat5

sounds unlikely-( you'd only use the existing conduits if it was practical),prob some surface wiring if you need data points

can't quite make out the ETU(phone box)- is the internal phone wiring brought out to it?

'standard practice' is a pipe through from ETU to 'eircom master socket' where the internal house wiring is terminated

Thanks for your feedback Mcebee, there's basically no phone hooked up yet so there wouldn't be any eircom hardware on site at this point. The bummer is I suppose I won't know if there's room for the extra cable or not until I go ahead and try it - I just don't want to get caught between two stools here, i.e. attempt to fish up more cables using the existing one, only to find that it won't fit and then be left without either in place.

On the daisy chaining - would I be right to presume that the ability to share/transfer calls between rooms will be lost in the structured/centralised cabling topology (without extra eircom hardware in place of course)?

Cheers,
GY

M cebee

it would be unusual to go back fishing through exising pipes

basic phone wiring can be daisy chained in 3-pair phone cable

or else you can home run all separate cat5's for data and phones and sort them at the patch panels

you can try some of the ideas maz suggested -prob the handiest

gaelicyoda

mazthespark wrote: »

up stairs should be straight forward as long as you can get into attic you could fish down from there into your rooms. if u plan on placing the patch panel or whatever in a downstairs room u could run a small trunking up in the corner of a room to get to the attic. or possibly a hotpress or closet mite suit better depending on intended cat 5 oultet locations.
if the house has a timber joist floor/ ceiling maybe you mite get away with lifting the floor in one room only and would be suprised where you could get from there.

if the house has hollow core possibly could fish around via spot lights etc.
another option would be to cut in a few access panels

or a better option but may be more expensive while your wiring your cat 5 have you thought about in house audio? speakers can be up to 6 inches in diameter perfect for access

also based in co. galway so send me a pm if you want me to have a look or need more advice.

Thanks Maz, really appreciate your comments.

The plan would be to have the patch panel in the attic (which will be semi-converted). The first floor is of timber stud and joist construction alright, so that should simplify things a little. The first floor is basically just ply at the moment which will probably have to be taken up in several places anyway because we want to use LED light throughout the house (well, in the places where it's practical at least) and also we'll probably be putting some kind of soundproofing measures (improvements anyway) in place. That's why I'm thinking about this stuff now, so I can have a plan in place when all this starts to happen.

I had thought about putting speakers in the living room and sitting room alright, but not so much the other rooms. Is there a lot involved (time/money) with this?

Cheers,
GY

M cebee

gaelicyoda wrote: »

Thanks for your feedback Mcebee, there's basically no phone hooked up yet so there wouldn't be any eircom hardware on site at this point. The bummer is I suppose I won't know if there's room for the extra cable or not until I go ahead and try it - I just don't want to get caught between two stools here, i.e. attempt to fish up more cables using the existing one, only to find that it won't fit and then be left without either in place.

On the daisy chaining - would I be right to presume that the ability to share/transfer calls between rooms will be lost in the structured/centralised cabling topology (without extra eircom hardware in place of course)?

Cheers,
GY

the 'home runs' usually give maximum flexibility compared to daisy-chainng

don't forget 1 or 2 cat 5's for the tv points while you're at it

astrofool

I did this recently to a 4 bed semi, cat6, phone, dual coax to each room. Did it by using fish tape dropped from the attic, and taking off a couple of skirting boards to reach the ground floor. (walls were plaster on timber battens with fibreglass).

Complicated by having the attic converted already, but I managed to get a wire from one end to the other, and used it to drag everything through. Can be time consuming.

Made a few small holes that were easily patched afterwards.

gaelicyoda

astrofool wrote: »

I did this recently to a 4 bed semi, cat6, phone, dual coax to each room. Did it by using fish tape dropped from the attic, and taking off a couple of skirting boards to reach the ground floor. (walls were plaster on timber battens with fibreglass).

Complicated by having the attic converted already, but I managed to get a wire from one end to the other, and used it to drag everything through. Can be time consuming.

Made a few small holes that were easily patched afterwards.

Thanks Astrofool... did you find any issue with the existing conduits taking the extra cabling? Also, did you do the patch panel yourself, or just the cabling?

Cheers,
GY

gaelicyoda

M cebee wrote: »

the 'home runs' usually give maximum flexibility compared to daisy-chainng

don't forget 1 or 2 cat 5's for the tv points while you're at it

Thanks Mcebee - I'd love to, but that would mean cutting out extra space in the wall for the extra RJ45 sockets, as well as potentially new chases in the wall for the additional cables. I don't think I'll be able to take it that far, though I'd love to. No, I think if I can replace the phone socket with a phone + RJ45 socket, and the analog TV coax with an analog + digital (BNC) coax socket I'll be doing pretty well. I don't think herself would appreciate me tearing holes in our lovely new house

Cheers,
GY

gaelicyoda

Another hole-free alternative I hadn't considered up until now is a power-line ethernet network - anyone have any experience with any of these? e.g.

http://reviews.cnet.com/bridges/siemens-speedstream-powerline-ethernet/4505-3304_7-20684584.html?tag=content;col1

(I have absolutely no affiliation to Siemens by the way mods)

Cheers,
GY

astrofool

No existing conduits in this house (build 1991), I just ran it into the space where the fibreglass insulation was, making sure to order LSNH (Low smoke, no halogen) cabling. I'd get the fish wire down first, and then pull them up to the attic (usually a network and coax at the same time), leaving enough length to pull it up again if posssible.

I ensured the fishtape either went down along the inside of the outside wall, or inside the plastic membrane behind the plaster board, then used pattresses to mount the sockets (or a 25mm surface pattress in the kitchen mounted on concrete block). I never had to route a cable to the outside, and have all cables (apart from phone) coming back to a central point for easier maintenance and future expansion.

I ran extra cables when I could (I have 3 network cables to the kitchen and living room) and added a point to the hall as well (and replaced the old phone and coax cable going up to the attic).

I got the fish tape from farnell.ie (b&q sometimes have them) and the cabling/connectors from connectix.ie, I patched the panels myself, make sure to get a network cable tester, reduces the workload, and the fear of sealing in kinked cables.

gaelicyoda

astrofool wrote: »

No existing conduits in this house (build 1991), I just ran it into the space where the fibreglass insulation was, making sure to order LSNH (Low smoke, no halogen) cabling. I'd get the fish wire down first, and then pull them up to the attic (usually a network and coax at the same time), leaving enough length to pull it up again if posssible.

I ensured the fishtape either went down along the inside of the outside wall, or inside the plastic membrane behind the plaster board, then used pattresses to mount the sockets (or a 25mm surface pattress in the kitchen mounted on concrete block). I never had to route a cable to the outside, and have all cables (apart from phone) coming back to a central point for easier maintenance and future expansion.

I ran extra cables when I could (I have 3 network cables to the kitchen and living room) and added a point to the hall as well (and replaced the old phone and coax cable going up to the attic).

I got the fish tape from farnell.ie (b&q sometimes have them) and the cabling/connectors from connectix.ie, I patched the panels myself, make sure to get a network cable tester, reduces the workload, and the fear of sealing in kinked cables.

Aha, I see - you actually ran the cabling through the wall cavity, or behind the plasterboard? Interesting approach, much handier since there were no existing conduits I'd imagine. Our wall cavities are bead pumped though, and as well as that I'd like to make use of the conduits that are there since I do have them available. Are you seeing any damp patches where the cables enter/exit the cavity as a matter of interest?

I've found what I consider to be the best resource on this topic I've been able to find so far, I wonder if anyone has any more?:

http://www.swhowto.com/

American, but the concepts are the same.

Cheers,
GY

astrofool

gaelicyoda wrote: »

Aha, I see - you actually ran the cabling through the wall cavity, or behind the plasterboard? Interesting approach, much handier since there were no existing conduits I'd imagine. Our wall cavities are bead pumped though, and as well as that I'd like to make use of the conduits that are there since I do have them available. Are you seeing any damp patches where the cables enter/exit the cavity as a matter of interest?

I've found what I consider to be the best resource on this topic I've been able to find so far, I wonder if anyone has any more?:

http://www.swhowto.com/

American, but the concepts are the same.

Cheers,
GY

Behind the plasterboard. No damp patches coming through.

With beads pumped it'll be trickier, is there much resistance to pushing straight through if you have to?

gaelicyoda

astrofool wrote: »

Behind the plasterboard. No damp patches coming through.

With beads pumped it'll be trickier, is there much resistance to pushing straight through if you have to?

Right, staying out of the cavity is probably more sensible I think. The main issue I'd see with it would be that if the wire started to go off to the side, you would just have no clue where it actually was without being able to see into the cavity. I doubt it would be too hard to push against - there is some adhesion between the beads, but they do come apart easily enough. There isn't anything in the cavity already either though to act as a guide, so I think that approach is a non-starter for our setup really.

astrofool

gaelicyoda wrote: »

Right, staying out of the cavity is probably more sensible I think. The main issue I'd see with it would be that if the wire started to go off to the side, you would just have no clue where it actually was without being able to see into the cavity. I doubt it would be too hard to push against - there is some adhesion between the beads, but they do come apart easily enough. There isn't anything in the cavity already either though to act as a guide, so I think that approach is a non-starter for our setup really.

You would never push a wire through, always the fish tape first, then use it as a guide for the cabling.

mazthespark

gaelicyoda wrote: »

Thanks Maz, really appreciate your comments.

The plan would be to have the patch panel in the attic (which will be semi-converted). The first floor is of timber stud and joist construction alright, so that should simplify things a little. The first floor is basically just ply at the moment which will probably have to be taken up in several places anyway because we want to use LED light throughout the house (well, in the places where it's practical at least) and also we'll probably be putting some kind of soundproofing measures (improvements anyway) in place. That's why I'm thinking about this stuff now, so I can have a plan in place when all this starts to happen.

I had thought about putting speakers in the living room and sitting room alright, but not so much the other rooms. Is there a lot involved (time/money) with this?

Cheers,
GY

ya well if you are takin some of it up anyway should make it easier to do neway mite be able to use existing cabling to fish from lifted floor boards to existing conduit drops. will be hard to know exactly until you start at it.

in relation to audio it all depends on what you want to achieve. is it surround sound for the room or all house audio

gaelicyoda

mazthespark wrote: »

ya well if you are takin some of it up anyway should make it easier to do neway mite be able to use existing cabling to fish from lifted floor boards to existing conduit drops. will be hard to know exactly until you start at it.

in relation to audio it all depends on what you want to achieve. is it surround sound for the room or all house audio

Yeah that's kind of what I'm hoping for but as you say, there's only one way to know for sure

In terms of the audio - how would you actually achieve surround sound? Presumeably you'd have at least 3 speakers (well, 5 in total) - 3 behind you (left, center, right - all built into the ceiling) and the two from the TV itself. But how would you get the separate feeds from the TV for for the 3 in-built/room speakers? Some kind of home cinema or preprocessing unit?

Cheers,
GY

mazthespark

gaelicyoda wrote: »

Yeah that's kind of what I'm hoping for but as you say, there's only one way to know for sure

In terms of the audio - how would you actually achieve surround sound? Presumeably you'd have at least 3 speakers (well, 5 in total) - 3 behind you (left, center, right - all built into the ceiling) and the two from the TV itself. But how would you get the separate feeds from the TV for for the 3 in-built/room speakers? Some kind of home cinema or preprocessing unit?

Cheers,
GY

buy a surround sound system and either use the speakers supplied or buy matching appropriate ceiling mountable replacements