Athletics Ireland's new High Performance Strategy

Rineanna

Athletics Ireland launched its new High Performance Strategy yesterday.

Main points:

Performance Consultant Chris Jones has been engaged to initiate six specific projects, which have been identified as the core areas of the plan. These projects are as follows:

1. High Performance Unit Organisation: May 2010
2. Athlete Medical Management System: September 2010
3. Sports Science Support Network: January 2011
4. National Long Term Athlete Development Programme: April 2012
5. National Coaching Advisory Group: January 2011
6. Identify Performance Training Centres: January 2011

Read about it here: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=12933

Official Document: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/athletics-ireland-performance-initiative-2010.pdf

Analysis from Ion O' Riordan: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/too-late-for-london-2140448.html


What do we think? I think it's obvious it's come too late for 2012, but I am, in general, excited about it as it addresses the key problems in the sport in relation to high performance.

I like that they're looking to establish training hubs/development centres at 3rd level institutions.

The only caveat is that all too often these shiny reports can be left sitting on the shelf, but with more organisations than the AAI involved, this may actually go somewhere.

ecoli

Rineanna wrote: »

Athletics Ireland launched its new High Performance Strategy yesterday.

Main points:





Read about it here: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=12933

Official Document: http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/athletics-ireland-performance-initiative-2010.pdf

Analysis from Ion O' Riordan: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/too-late-for-london-2140448.html


What do we think? I think it's obvious it's come too late for 2012, but I am, in general, excited about it as it addresses the key problems in the sport in relation to high performance.

I like that they're looking to establish training hubs/development centres at 3rd level institutions.

The only caveat is that all too often these shiny reports can be left sitting on the shelf, but with more organisations than the AAI involved, this may actually go somewhere.

I believe it is a definite step in the right direction especially with regards to the use of third level institutions as training hubs.
It appears that they are starting to take notice of the US system which has resulted in a great boom in America distance running over the last few years with training hubs being established in places like Oregon and Flagstaff to allow elite athletes access to top class training partners as well as coaching.
For me the idea that there are great coaches and athletes isolated in Ireland cut off from training partners or in fact a group to coach is something which needed to be addressed however this can be a double edged sword and unless the coaches are given the right support (not just financial) it can create a scenario where a coach can not give enough attention to each athlete it could end up being a hinderance. I would like to see whether this can be implemented properly and hopefully see it is a major step forward and a success

thirtyfoot

From the Indo

And Jones stressed that quality coaches, not facilities, are what Ireland needs to focus on.

That gets a high five from me.

I like this. A crap coach in great facilities will do little.

A great coach in crap facilities will do a lot.

If you think of the golden age of coaching in western Europe (in the UK in the 70/80/90's), facilities were alright but there was a batch of great coaches like Dick, Arnold, Paish, Warden, Coe etc. Coaching the coaches is the key, its encouraging this plan seems to look like its targeting it.

thirtyfoot

ecoli wrote: »

It appears that they are starting to take notice of the US system which has resulted in a great boom in America distance running over the last few years with training hubs being established in places like Oregon and Flagstaff to allow elite athletes access to top class training partners as well as coaching.

Yes, and probably closer to home a setup like Loughborough!

myflipflops

Rineanna wrote: »

Analysis from Ion O' Riordan: http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/too-late-for-london-2140448.html

Cliona Foley. O'Riordan could sue you for suggesting he writes for this 'tabloid' rag!

(Sorry, off topic).

anotheronebites

this plan isnt going to go anywhere...great to see derval bashing on it in the daily mail today..its a complete PR stunt on behalf of high performance unit of AAI..a vain attempt by the high performance manager to hold onto his job.

where are these magic world class coaches going to appear from? it means one thing, wasting taxpayers money on importing foreign coaches...hasn't AAI wasted enough taxpayer euro on in house bitching and fighting? as for creating hubs?? aai wont have the spine to make athletes relocate to these places...sher what little talent we have in ireland refuses to train together

ecoli

anotheronebites wrote: »

this plan isnt going to go anywhere...great to see derval bashing on it in the daily mail today..its a complete PR stunt on behalf of high performance unit of AAI..a vain attempt by the high performance manager to hold onto his job.

where are these magic world class coaches going to appear from? it means one thing, wasting taxpayers money on importing foreign coaches...hasn't AAI wasted enough taxpayer euro on in house bitching and fighting? as for creating hubs?? aai wont have the spine to make athletes relocate to these places...sher what little talent we have in ireland refuses to train together

Granted i was not in support of what went on in terms of money spent in law suits however they specifically highlight the increase in AAI membership as well as look into other forms of funding. To me this seems like they feel that the grants which they get are going to drop and are looking to try and be more self sufficient.
Admittedly i have my doubts about whether these will be instigated but atleast the fact that the reports are in the public domain may put a bit more pressure on to act rather than having no idea's how to take things forward.

gerard65

anotheronebites wrote: »

this plan isnt going to go anywhere...great to see derval bashing on it in the daily mail today..its a complete PR stunt on behalf of high performance unit of AAI..a vain attempt by the high performance manager to hold onto his job.

where are these magic world class coaches going to appear from? it means one thing, wasting taxpayers money on importing foreign coaches...hasn't AAI wasted enough taxpayer euro on in house bitching and fighting? as for creating hubs?? aai wont have the spine to make athletes relocate to these places...sher what little talent we have in ireland refuses to train together

Ok, plenty of criticism there. Now what exactly would you do? If you were given the job of AAI chief for a day to come up with a plan what would your ideas be?

anotheronebites

fire the high performance unit

ecoli

anotheronebites wrote: »

fire the high performance unit

And what would you put in place or what kind of plan would you have to develop our top class athletes to compete at the highest level?

gerard65

anotheronebites wrote: »

fire the high performance unit

You hav'nt really thought it through, have you? Its easy to be critical, its another thing to come up with a workable alternate.

anotheronebites

build an indoor training facility with gym, massage, physio, indoor track, dorms, doctor, restaurant, miles of running trails on site..possibly woodchip trails..then instead of paying our elites grants id give them free living in the new centre and pay them a small stipend, say 3,000 a year. they will have the option to stay with their current coach but they will not receive any funding unless they join with whoever is hired as the national event coach so they'll have to pay their own way to live and train in the training centre. also, they will be ineligible for selection for major championships until they agree to join whoever the national event coach is...this way irish athletes will end up training together...right now, no one will leave their coach unless they are forced to. setting up hubs wont do anything because it isnt strong enough measure. unless athletes are forced to join it'll be the same old same old. juniors will be given a 4 year contract to be eligible to live and train in this centre but without the stipend..that way they are given time to develop. juniors who progress independtly of this system will be given the option to join but under the same terms as everyone else.

just look what the brits did...we need to go one step further

anotheronebites

gerard65 wrote: »

You hav'nt really thought it through, have you? Its easy to be critical, its another thing to come up with a workable alternate.

<Snip>

[anotheronebites banned]

ecoli

anotheronebites wrote: »

build an indoor training facility with gym, massage, physio, indoor track, dorms, doctor, restaurant, miles of running trails on site..possibly woodchip trails..then instead of paying our elites grants id give them free living in the new centre and pay them a small stipend, say 3,000 a year. they will have the option to stay with their current coach but they will not receive any funding unless they join with whoever is hired as the national event coach so they'll have to pay their own way to live and train in the training centre. also, they will be ineligible for selection for major championships until they agree to join whoever the national event coach is...this way irish athletes will end up training together...right now, no one will leave their coach unless they are forced to. setting up hubs wont do anything because it isnt strong enough measure. unless athletes are forced to join it'll be the same old same old. juniors will be given a 4 year contract to be eligible to live and train in this centre but without the stipend..that way they are given time to develop. juniors who progress independtly of this system will be given the option to join but under the same terms as everyone else.

just look what the brits did...we need to go one step further

Few points here:

1. Where do you get the funding considering we can pay small amount towards funding athletes as is at the moment. Paying athletes plus supporting them as well as a multi million euro complex is not feasible.

2. Look at some of are top class athletes who must work to support themselves maybe not in short term but after retirement (late thirties) are they supposed to give up there jobs and come to Dublin

3. Athletes are more individual what suits one athlete may not suit another (i.e high mileage v low mileage) enforcing an athlete to come under them is detremental to development in some cases.

anotheronebites

1. if AAI hadn't blown nearly one million on legal bills I'd recommend removing the entire high performance unit who brought about this mess.

I would enter into an agreement with the IRFU to construct an indoor track around an indoor rugby pitch, thereby sharing the cost and creating an oversize track which will be able to be used out of the indoor season, such as summer and spring time when the weather is inclement, this will be a training centre, not a competition centre. If this was done at either leinster or munster or ulsters training facility it would be either UCD, UL or UU. We would then purchase a dorm block at one of these locations and pay for food in the canteen at the same location...guess what? theres a training centre ready to go

2. all athletes who wish to be considered for selection must relocate to this centre. without this step it'll never get off the ground. older athletes will be expected to join these centres. those left outside the system will be left behind and it will be their loss

3. surely the national governing body should be able to appoint such a coach who can take into consideration the needs of several different athletes? maybe you're referring to current high performance unit and how they would be unable to hire such a coach...on this, we are in agreement.

IrishTrackFan1

gerard65 wrote: »

You hav'nt really thought it through, have you? Its easy to be critical, its another thing to come up with a workable alternate.

The plan itself is not the problem - it never is really as any plan is usually better than none. The real problem is the personnel. You are asking average and worse people to deliver world class services to our elite athletes and they can't do it. The HP manager is useless, none of the athletes have any time for him but since he delivered the bullying complaint against the last CEO on request from the powers that be he is untouchable. Likewise Chris Jones, no background in athletics, imposed by the Sports Council because they must have control and can only offer second raters. Nessa Smyth? I don't know one elite athlete who uses her!. McGonagle - there is nothing more to say there, he is in place over ten years and has delivered nothing of any lasting value, and possibly nothing even of transient value!
This won't have any impact for 2012 and by 2016 nobody will remember it anyway - where are the outputs that will be used to measure progress?
HP plan? Give the current elite athletes money and let them organise themselves. Possibly do something for the development athletes where we can add some value. If we manage to put a world class system in place then you can look to enforce participation. But here's a simple test - what international athletes will look to come here to train? When we get Martin Rooney coming here, instead of Gillick going to Loughborough then we will know we have a world class system.
The Institute of Sport is a joke - it won't attract world class people yet athletes will be forced to use it. Read the Crawford report from Australia - they are reorganising their Sports Council and their Institute and we need to do the same.

ecoli

anotheronebites wrote: »

2. all athletes who wish to be considered for selection must relocate to this centre. without this step it'll never get off the ground. older athletes will be expected to join these centres. those left outside the system will be left behind and it will be their loss

3. surely the national governing body should be able to appoint such a coach who can take into consideration the needs of several different athletes? maybe you're referring to current high performance unit and how they would be unable to hire such a coach...on this, we are in agreement.

First point is one that i highlighted as a criticism to your plan take Athlete A who lives in Cork moves to UU to be part of this gives up his job and commits full time to this. This athlete goes on to perform well for Ireland and 10 years down the line retires. This athlete now has no home and no money saved up to support themselves for the rest of there life. What do they do now.

Secondly say they have Lydiard (an example) his training philosphies influence all his schedules (high mileage low intesnsity) along comes an athlete who has been developing as part of his coaches methods (say Daniels High intensity running). Lydiards methods dont develop one athlete in six does that means that he goes against everything he knows on how to train this athlete?

thirtyfoot

I'm with Gerard65 and ecoli here. Its easy to be critical. But when critical and an alternative solution put forward is to build an indoor track around an indoor rugby pitch, ah jaysus, pie in the sky. So its all about facilities is it? Finland have the best indoor facilities in the world, 400m indoor tracks. Great throwers and thats about that. Where were the great facilities in Britain in the 70/80s when there was the greatest generation of British coaches ever? Facilities is just an excuse. Its coaches and athletes are the answer. Kelly Proper has sh8te facilities. She is a great athlete. She has coaches who believe in her and have upskilled themselves to continue her progression. Thats whats needed, everywhere. Coach the coaches to coach the athletes.

DCU has the potential to be a version of the pie in the sky alternative that anotheronebitesthedust suggests. Dorm, check. Trails, not really but lots of places to run. Track, check. Gym, check. Medical care, potentially check. Massage, potentially check and so on. You don't have to build big white elephants to have a proper high performance unit. The hubs are there. DCU, Ferrybank, Leevale, UU, Ballymena, Mullingar, the Cahills etc etc. Build on these.

As for the personnel being an issue. If the system works propoerly then the personel will fall into place. Also, writing it off as never going to work because of who is or isn't involved is political and personal and an attitude that got us where we are. Patsy McGonagle won't be involved as he is just a team manager as he isn't going for chair of HP. The HP Manager now has clear goals to achieve and who is to say he won't achieve them. Give the system a chance. Support it. Compared to the previous system suggested, its the same or even better. As for Chris Jones, again give him a chance. Has anyone worked with him? Has anyone bad experiences in relation to him? He seems to have a strategic and realistic outlook on things and this is something we've never had. He isn't suggesting pie in the sky or bringing Grand Prix to Ireland or building indoor tracks. What use will that do and we don't have the resources or audience for either.

We can either keep moaning and giving out or sulking because the people we wanted or the systems we wanted aren't in place or we can look forward, get behind a system that looks like it could work and focus on the sport and not the politics.

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

I'm with Gerard65 and ecoli here. Its easy to be critical. But when critical and an alternative solution put forward is to build an indoor track around an indoor rugby pitch, ah jaysus, pie in the sky. So its all about facilities is it? Finland have the best indoor facilities in the world, 400m indoor tracks. Great throwers and thats about that. Where were the great facilities in Britain in the 70/80s when there was the greatest generation of British coaches ever? Facilities is just an excuse. Its coaches and athletes are the answer. Kelly Proper has sh8te facilities. She is a great athlete. She has coaches who believe in her and have upskilled themselves to continue her progression. Thats whats needed, everywhere. Coach the coaches to coach the athletes.

DCU has the potential to be a version of the pie in the sky alternative that anotheronebitesthedust suggests. Dorm, check. Trails, not really but lots of places to run. Track, check. Gym, check. Medical care, potentially check. Massage, potentially check and so on. You don't have to build big white elephants to have a proper high performance unit. The hubs are there. DCU, Ferrybank, Leevale, UU, Ballymena, Mullingar, the Cahills etc etc. Build on these.

As for the personnel being an issue. If the system works propoerly then the personel will fall into place. Also, writing it off as never going to work because of who is or isn't involved is political and personal and an attitude that got us where we are. Patsy McGonagle won't be involved as he is just a team manager as he isn't going for chair of HP. The HP Manager now has clear goals to achieve and who is to say he won't achieve them. Give the system a chance. Support it. Compared to the previous system suggested, its the same or even better. As for Chris Jones, again give him a chance. Has anyone worked with him? Has anyone bad experiences in relation to him? He seems to have a strategic and realistic outlook on things and this is something we've never had. He isn't suggesting pie in the sky or bringing Grand Prix to Ireland or building indoor tracks. What use will that do and we don't have the resources or audience for either.

We can either keep moaning and giving out or sulking because the people we wanted or the systems we wanted aren't in place or we can look forward, get behind a system that looks like it could work and focus on the sport and not the politics.

Have to disagree on a number of your points Tingle. When a system is up and running then it can be easier to fit people into a working system with the right ethic and morale in place. To get to that point you absolutely need the right people or else you get off on the wrong foot and that is the real risk here. We had Max Jones, Gareth Devlin and Patsy McGonagle for the last incarnation of a HP plan and they achieved nothing. The Sports Council have replaced one Jones with another and the result unfortunately will be the same. It unfortunately is not true to say McGonagle won't be involved. If you look at the plan you will see that the Senior Team Manager and the Performance Director (to be hired in April 2011) select all staff for travelling teams. Sending coaches to events with their coaches is an important part of developing those coaches but it will be subject to the usual McGonagle politicking as it always has been. Devlin has had plenty of time to show whatever hidden talents he might possess. He is detested in the office and he has a chip on his shoulder when dealing with athletes - I suspect a wannabee syndrome at work there.
With Chris Jones why give him a chance over anyone else? If Gregan is to make it he needs input from someone who has brought someone like Gregan on to the next level before - and that's the problem with Jones he has no experience of doing this. Now it is not likely we can attract someone who has such experience and that is why I say that you just give the top athletes the money and let them get on with it. When we have a Van Commennee and a system to match then we can insist on them getting on board.
Agree mostly re facilities but there is a real issue here for the technical events. It must be an issue for Derval that she has to train in a freezing indoor strip all winter. At least get some heating in there, even if only to help the Clonliffe wimps!

Fish'n'Chips

IrishTrackFan1 hit the nail on the head there.

The plan is mainly a publicity stunt because with the personnel involved in delivering it it is doomed for failure.

Patsy McGonagle's approach to High Performance would be more akin to the hurling dressing room sketch out of D'Unbelievables than anything remotely approaching professional. He has been involved in this area for over a decade and has delivered nothing so expect him to head up the "High Performance Unit".

Gareth Devlin is held in contempt by pretty much anyone he has ever come in contact with in the sport. He is useless as well so expect him to be given a promotion and made McGonagle's side-kick within that unit.

John Foley - not exactly overly convincing in laying out how the plan will be funded. His comment about it being a plan to Rio 2016 sounds like the sort of vague accountability we have heard all too many times before.

Liam Hennessy...well I don't think much needs to be said about this man other than have a look at the following clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iKaSuPmanE

Is it any wonder that the organisation is a complete joke when the odds are this guy is going to be re-elected as President for another 2 year term at Congress next weekend?

I know people would like to see a World Class Performance Plan for Irish Athletics implemented but it's simply not going to happen.

fastrack

I think both IrishTrackFan1 and Fish'n'Chips have hit the nail on the head on this one. It is merely a PR stunt to gloss over what has been going on for the past 2 years by certain individuals as named above. Note the timing of this - just over a week before congress to rush the launch through and note the paragraph in the strategy which states:

Performance Director & National team manager to appoint and engage all staff for major
championship events.

This essentially strips away the functions of the Coaching & Dev committee and High Perf committee without approval by congress and gives the 'Donegal Mafia' and their friends a clear run with their 'High Performance Unit' taking High Performance away from the 'rump of the sport' which they've always wanted. This underhanded means of conducting business is what started this whole legal mess in the Summer of 2008 by McGonagle, Devlin and co as clearly seen in their email exchanges in the High Court transcripts.

It is absolutely scandalous that McGonagle, Devlin and Hennessey whose actions have cost the sport over half a million in legal fees since the last congress 2 years ago are still in a position to continue to operate in the sport a the highest level. It would be no different to Seanie Fitzpatrick, David Drumm and co still holding their positions in Anglo Irish after their wreckles behaviour, but their shareholders would not tolerate it and neither should Athletics Ireland members tolerate this.

As a sport we have a chance next weekend at the Sligo congress to make some changes and pose some serious questions as to how we got ourself into such a position; and hopfully influence the future direction of our sport. The members must be made aware of the full truth and facts and not just the one-sided spin that a lot of them have been brainwashed with so that Hennessey gets reelected and the cosy clique continues.

I note too in the sillibus sent out to the county boards, that certan elements of the financial report have been blackened out, in particular a letter this time last year from the Finance & Risk committe warning the board members of the wreckless financial position that they were putting the sport in, where an alternative option for settlement was put before them which would have avoided High Court action and the huge legal costs, that was ignored by the 'anti-Coghlan faction' of the board.

People need to be made answereable and accountable for their actions and next weekend is the chance to make this happen.

thirtyfoot

Lads, this is getting boring. You can all head off to Sligo next week and talk, talk and scheme and do whatever else goes on at these things. Leevale was on yesterday, we had a great days sport from 10 year olds to elites, schools are starting soon, varsity is on next week, the track season is getting into full swing. Thats the real sport not this politics crap of people trying to make names for themselves without really doing or having anything to do with the sport, really. Boring, boring, boring. Seriously, its not a case of burying heads in the sand, its just getting on with it.

If a volcano erupted under the hotel that Congress is on next week, would it really matter and have an effect on the sport, not sure, don't think it would, most of the important people in the sport won't be there, ie, the athletes and the coaches, I'm sure we'd lose a few good men and women but by and large, probably not;)

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

Lads, this is getting boring. You can all head off to Sligo next week and talk, talk and scheme and do whatever else goes on at these things. Leevale was on yesterday, we had a great days sport from 10 year olds to elites, schools are starting soon, varsity is on next week, the track season is getting into full swing. Thats the real sport not this politics crap of people trying to make names for themselves without really doing or having anything to do with the sport, really. Boring, boring, boring. Seriously, its not a case of burying heads in the sand, its just getting on with it.

If a volcano erupted under the hotel that Congress is on next week, would it really matter and have an effect on the sport, not sure, don't think it would, most of the important people in the sport won't be there, ie, the athletes and the coaches, I'm sure we'd lose a few good men and women but by and large, probably not;)

Suspect things would improve radically!

fastrack

I also notice Jamie Costin was appointed to address the media at last weeks launch. He wasn't exactly 'singing off the same hymn sheet' as O'Rourke or Gillick in their response in the Daily Mail the next day.

Fish'n'Chips

I believe Jamie Costin is only in that position to be a "Yes Man" for AAI and the Sports Council. Note the Waterford connection. He doesn't represent the opinion of most Irish athletes. You'd have to be fairly wary of the motives of a current athlete who has involvment in the politics of the sport...

fastrack

FishnChips wrote: »

I believe Jamie Costin is only in that position to be a "Yes Man" for AAI and the Sports Council. Note the Waterford connection. He doesn't represent the opinion of most Irish athletes. You'd have to be fairly wary of the motives of a current athlete who has involvment in the politics of the sport...

Yes, he is the 'Athletes Representative' on both the AAI High Performance Committee and the OCI Athletes Commission, but I don't believe he was voted into either of these positions by the athletes, so he certainly doesn't represent the opinion of most Irish athletes. Again, more of the same re McGonagle, Hennessy etc.

thirtyfoot

It seems to me if you are not on 'your' side whatever your side is, you are considered part of the clique or part of the conspiracy. Jamie Costin is a decent guy, you are losing credibility quick by attacking him, he was there when Mary Coghlan was in power, was he a yes man for her back then? Are Ciara Mageean, Dave Campbell and Brain Gregan part of the plan of the dark side also or have they been brainwashed. Seriously, its getting crazy. Its like Jim Corr.

Whats wrong with a current athlete taking an interest? Derval O' Rourke has commented several times in the press (Indo, Daily Mail) about this situation, do we question her motives. Perhaps you do as she is managed by Paul Doyle but I wouldn't say thats the only reason as she is a naturally outspoken person (which is great).

Waterford connection, is Kelly Proper part of the conspiracy too. How about Usain Bolt, he is managed by Ricky Simms who is from Donegal, I'd say he is involved too. Costin spoke openly at the conference and to media such as Irish Times (forgot they are in on it too) and RTE (probably they are in it too) yet we get the athletes voice as being quotes from Derval O' Rourke in the Daily Mail. A rag that not too long ago was accusing Mary Coghlan of bullying (falsely), ie, they stir up the sh*t, thats what they do. Please don't tell me you are basing the Daily Mail as the barometer of the feeling of athletes in Ireland. Can you give me evidence that Jamie Costin doesn't represent the views of current Irish athletes, how did you undertake this research?

Newsflash: Patsy McGonagle and Gareth Devlin and Liam Hennessy and the Irish Times and Jamie Costin and Ciara Mageean and the Daily Mail (oh no they are not talking about Mary and bullying anymore, they are on our side - Jim Corr), Ossie Kilkenny and Bono, the postman from Glenties who predicts the weather (he is from Donegal) were all spotted in Iceland last week. Its suspected they triggered the volcano. Typical, what else would you expect from the clique:rolleyes:

While I am not denying there are problems, I think this has definetly gone to the land where old Mr Corr resides.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Newsflash: Patsy McGonagle and Gareth Devlin and Liam Hennessy and the Irish Times and Jamie Costin and Ciara Mageean and the Daily Mail (oh no they are not talking about Mary and bullying anymore, they are on our side - Jim Corr), Ossie Kilkenny and Bono, the postman from Glenties who predicts the weather (he is from Donegal) were all spotted in Iceland last week. Its suspected they triggered the volcano. Typical, what else would you expect from the clique

I never said Jamie Costin wasn't a decent guy but he wasn't voted in by the athletes so how can he be representative of them? In general, athletes are afraid to publicly voice their real opinions for fear of being shafted by the powers that be for doing so. That's the basic Modus operandi of the Sports Council as was shown in the High Court -rule by fear. Again, for someone who has remarked quite a lot on this it seems strange that you wouldn't have deducted this (or even thought it was possible) from what the court transcripts revealed about the ISC/AAI.

Also, it's a fact that there's a stong link between Costin and the Sports Council through Pierce O'Callaghan and Patsy McGonagle so it's not some sort of mad conspiracy like you're trying to make out.

While I am not denying there are problems

Understatement of the year.

thirtyfoot

FishnChips wrote: »

I never said Jamie Costin wasn't a decent guy

True, but you said he is a Yes man which is not a very complimentary charachter description and you questioned his motives for being the athlete rep. If thats not an attack on him personally, I'd hate to see what you'd say if you meant to attack him personally. As for the Pierce O' Callaghan link, I assume thats due to the Walks so do we assume then that the man likely to replace Patsy McGonagle at Congress next week, Ray Flynn, will also be part of this clique as he is a walks man through and through?

FishnChips wrote: »

. Again, for someone who has remarked quite a lot on this it seems strange that you wouldn't have deducted this .

Maybe I don't believe in fairytales or conspiracy theories;)

So, politics and Congress canvassing aside, does anyone have any other opinions on the plan. Personally I think it looks good as I have said. Indentify/create centres of excellence, tap into 3rd level institutions, implement proper LTAD, proper event coaches. There is more to a High Performance plan or high performance centre than putting a bit of heating in Santry. That would help maybe 50 top (not even elite athletes) in one location for 4-5 months of the year and only sprinters at that and to be honest won't leave a great legacy in say 10-20 years. This plan seems to address the next generation and is, at last, seemingly looking at the next 10 years as opposed to the next 10 months. When you look at the current make-up of Irish teams from Youth to Senior, how many of them came through and used one of the best (even though inadequate) indoor facility in Ireland we have in Santry, very few. What does that say? To me, that facilities are not as important as coaches.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
As for the Pierce O' Callaghan link, I assume thats due to the Walks so do we assume then that the man likely to replace Patsy McGonagle at Congress next week, Ray Flynn, will also be part of this clique as he is a walks man through and through?

No, Jamie Costin and Pierce O'Callaghan are very close friends.

Originally posted by Tingle
So, politics and Congress canvassing aside, does anyone have any other opinions on the plan.

Again, overlooking the fundamental flaw with the plan. Denial is not just a river in Africa..

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Maybe I don't believe in fairytales or conspiracy theories

What are the fairytales?

thirtyfoot

FishnChips wrote: »

No, Jamie Costin and Pierce O'Callaghan are very close friends.

Whats that got to do with anything? Is he unsuitable for the gig because of his friendships with certain people or where they are from, bizarre. You are making constant and unfounded accusations on people based on your opinion solely or where they are from or who they are friends with, nothing else.
As far as I can see, anyone who gets involved or attempts to get involved is corrupt/weak/brainwashed/scared and not up to the job if they don't follow in behind the Coghlan/Giblin axis. Give people some credit. Its starting to sound like some form of fundamentalism, a modern day athletics version of the Legion of Mary:)

I am not too tossed about this, genuinely, but its the blind and constant beating off the same old drum that draws me in and triggers me to respond. It so boring. It is political bull from you that ironically is the same stuff you give about on the other side. My frustration is when does it end. When will the politics go away and when will everyone focus on moving on.

This thread is going nowhere. Reminds me of what Sean Naughton would say from his time on the Board. He said they spent all their time fighting personal battles, political fighting, empire building and he never got a chance to actually discuss athletics and the real stuff they should have been talking about. So, leaving aside the personal and political battles, what is the alternative to the current HP plan, what would make you a happy camper?

thirtyfoot

FishnChips wrote: »

What are the fairytales?

I think there was talk in another thread of a production of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, I just couldn't believe in it, it was too good to be true;)

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Whats that got to do with anything? Is he unsuitable for the gig because of his friendships with certain people or where they are from, bizarre. You are making constant and unfounded accusations on people based on your opinion solely or where they are from or who they are friends with, nothing else.
As far as I can see, anyone who gets involved or attempts to get involved is corrupt/weak/brainwashed/scared and not up to the job if they don't follow in behind the Coghlan/Giblin axis. Give people some credit. Its starting to sound like some form of fundamentalism, a modern day athletics version of the Legion of Mary

I am not too tossed about this, genuinely, but its the blind and constant beating off the same old drum that draws me in and triggers me to respond. It so boring. It is political bull from you that ironically is the same stuff you give about on the other side. My frustration is when does it end. When will the politics go away and when will everyone focus on moving on.

This thread is going nowhere. Reminds me of what Sean Naughton would say from his time on the Board. He said they spent all their time fighting personal battles, political fighting, empire building and he never got a chance to actually discuss athletics and the real stuff they should have been talking about. So, leaving aside the personal and political battles, what is the alternative to the current HP plan, what would make you a happy camper?

Tingle, you have your head deeply buried in the sand on this one. The reasons why this HP plan will not work have been outlined in this thread already.

The only response you have been able to come up with to the valid points challenging it have been to make sarcastic and immature comments.

You haven't addressed any of the fundamental points raised about it but instead say 'let's get on with it anyway'. That shows either (1) a total breakdown in the steps of logic on your part or (2) complete denial.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
I think there was talk in another thread of a production of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves, I just couldn't believe in it, it was too good to be true

Hiding behind more childish responses I see.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Whats that got to do with anything? Is he unsuitable for the gig because of his friendships with certain people or where they are from, bizarre.

Yes it's got quite a lot to do with it when combined with the fact that he is an athletes representative who was never voted in by the athletes.

If you don't understand this please refer to my post re "steps of logic".

thirtyfoot

FishnChips wrote: »

Tingle, you have your head deeply buried in the sand on this one. The reasons why this HP plan will not work have been outlined in this thread already.

To be honest I can't see clearly where you have outlined the issues apart from a personal crusade against Patsy McGonagale, Gareth Devlin, Liam Hennessy and John Treacy. Humour me and outline them again? Is it that these people are still around and not the actual content of the plan?

FishnChips wrote: »

The only response you have been able to come up with to the valid points challenging it have been to make sarcastic and immature comments.

I diagree. I have clearly outlined the key points about the plan that I see as good, ie, LTAD, 3rd level link ins, identifying high performance centres like Ferrybank, Ballymena and proper event coaches. Thats talking and outlining the real issues in my book. You just go on about personalities and how crap they are without really talking about stuff that will make a difference. We all know you opinions on these people, its all you go on about in every thread thats mildly related to the topic. Maybe clarify specifics of the plan you like or dislike and I will be able to understand you a little better and accept you opinions as more than just political posturing. Do you agree the 4 points I raised above within the plan are a positive step and good to be focusing on?

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
To be honest I can't see clearly where you have outlined the issues apart from a personal crusade against Patsy McGonagale, Gareth Devlin, Liam Hennessy and John Treacy. Humour me and outline them again? Is it that these people are still around and not the actual content of the plan?

Like I said in my first post on this issue it's not the plan itself, it's the personnel behind it. That is the fundamental problem with it - it will not get implemented because the people involved in implementing don't have the ability to implement it.

There's no point talking about the actual details of the plan once you know that.

Patsy McGonagale, Gareth Devlin, Liam Hennessy and John Treacy - What have these guys ever delivered on? Have you read the court transcripts properly about how they operate? Have you seen Hennessy's youtube appearance? What makes you think things will change magically?

John Foley - jury is still out on him. He was CEO of Waterford Crystal in Ireland when they went tits up. Maybe it was out of his control, maybe it wasn't. As I said before he wasn't too convincing on how the plan would be funded though.

thirtyfoot

FishnChips wrote: »

Like I said in my first post on this issue it's not the plan itself, it's the personnel behind it.

Ok, thats grand, its the personnel then and not the content. So, if we say these people weren't involved, would you be behind the plan?

FishnChips wrote: »

it will not get implemented because the people involved in implementing don't have the ability to implement it.

Fullness of time will determine that, not us anonymous posters here. Would you be happy, for the sake of Irish athletics, to be wrong and see the plan implemented and be successfull? Your answer here will really interest me.

FishnChips wrote: »

Patsy McGonagale, Gareth Devlin, Liam Hennessy and John Treacy - What have these guys ever delivered on? Have you read the court transcripts properly about how they operate? Have you seen Hennessy's youtube appearance? What makes you think things will change magically?

John Foley - jury is still out on him. He was CEO of Waterford Crystal in Ireland when they went tits up. Maybe it was out of his control, maybe it wasn't. As I said before he wasn't too convincing on how the plan would be funded though.

You should put that as your signature as you repeat it in every other email.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Ok, thats grand, its the personnel then and not the content. So, if we say these people weren't involved, would you be behind the plan?

I would back it but with the people involved it's not going to happen - not a hope. The acid test of a genuine World Class system would be when high level athletes from other countries want to come here to train.

Originally posted by Tingle
You should put that as your signature as you repeat it in every other email.

If it sounds repetitive it's only because you have seem to have difficulty comprehending some of the fundamental issues which continue to hold Irish athletics back. Maybe if I say it enough times it might start to sink in? You're saying we should get on with things but you're ignoring the elephant in the room.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Fullness of time will determine that, not us anonymous posters here. Would you be happy, for the sake of Irish athletics, to be wrong and see the plan implemented and be successfull? Your answer here will really interest me.

Of course I would but I live in the real world.

downthemiddle

http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=13006

They must only have surveyed the Donegal mafia, their brethren in Waterford and friends of Jamie Costin.
I find myself wondering if there is anything about Irish athletics Fish n Chips finds praiseworthy or are we all on a fool's errand?

IrishTrackFan1

Tingle wrote: »

Ok, thats grand, its the personnel then and not the content. So, if we say these people weren't involved, would you be behind the plan?



Fullness of time will determine that, not us anonymous posters here. Would you be happy, for the sake of Irish athletics, to be wrong and see the plan implemented and be successfull? Your answer here will really interest me.



You should put that as your signature as you repeat it in every other email.

This is going round in circles for quite a while now, with not much light been shed on any particular topic.

The HP plan should appeal to both sides of the political divide in fact since it is largely based on the 5 year plan Coghlan produced.

As I see it it there are three main layers to it in terms of performance. The lowest level is the widest as you would expect and it is based on a national talent identification scheme. The Australians use a very simple scheme to identify talent - run a mile, throw a cricket ball and standing long jump, from memory, are the constituents of it. Now if that is integrated with a club schools integration plan, and with a sensible degree of technology to gather and analyse the data, you should be able to deliver a stream of talent into a youth development level of performance.
That will get you from 12 to 16 say (primary school would be ideal but maybe 1st year secondary is practical) and I think the key to the next level is to have continuity from 16 to 22, with transition from school to college a seamless experience athletics wise. The top 8 in the All-Irelands should be directed to the regional centre of excellence for their event so that long jumpers for instance are pointed towards the college which contains our jumps high performance centre. That way they get four years to go from youth and development level to knowing whether they can/should dedicate themselves full time to athletics. More integration needed here between the local coach who got them that far and the HP centre who will take them on but should have all the info from the club coach regarding the athlete and it is at this point that the local coach should be involved in a way that guarantees they get upskilled as part of this stage.
The top level is the easiest to define but the hardest to deliver. World class services for our world class athletes. Most of our volunteers don't get this bit - they see themselves as capable of contributing to the program that a world class athlete needs. Very few can contribute at this level. If this is about getting them to world finals then you need services from people who have experience of doing this. Big problem for us in the short term. My inclination is to get the first two levels up and running and just give money to our top athletes and let them continue to do what they have done so well for themselves to date.

So, thats how I would do it and I don't think its that different from what is proposed. What is missing from the plan are measurable targets. When you get a plan presented to you and a bill to implement it then you have to ask how will I know it is successful? And that is not addressed at all which concerns me greatly because an honest plan would not avoid that question.

And finally I go back to my earlier point that without the right personnel this will not be implemented. The same people are in charge, they have never ever produced any plan that they have implemented in any sphere and why should this be any different. Would love to be wrong on this.

Barname

FishnChips wrote: »

Liam Hennessy...well I don't think much needs to be said about this man other than have a look at the following clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iKaSuPmanE

Is it any wonder that the organisation is a complete joke when the odds are this guy is going to be re-elected as President for another 2 year term at Congress next weekend?

LMAO

That guy is inept.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by downthemiddle
http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=13006

They must only have surveyed the Donegal mafia, their brethren in Waterford and friends of Jamie Costin.
I find myself wondering if there is anything about Irish athletics Fish n Chips finds praiseworthy or are we all on a fool's errand?

How is anything of what you have written there relevant to what is being discussed in this thread?

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan1 wrote: »

The same people are in charge, they have never ever produced any plan that they have implemented in any sphere and why should this be any different. Would love to be wrong on this.

Good to hear you agree with the content of the plan and would like to see it succeed while stating the reservations you have. At least I can relate to that:cool:

downthemiddle

FishnChips wrote: »

How is anything of what you have written there relevant to what is being discussed in this thread?

It is relevant in that it reflects that a broad cross section of Irish athletics have faith in the structures that are in place. They believe that Irish athletics is going in the right direction. They appear to trust the association. I know it is difficult for you to comprehend but the majority of people involved in Irish athletics, while acknowledging difficulties, embrace the sport and actively attempt to improve the sport.
The high performance strategy is another step in the right direction. It will not cure all the ills of the sport but it does give us some hope for the future despite your repetitive negativity.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by downthemiddle
It is relevant in that it reflects that a broad cross section of Irish athletics have faith in the structures that are in place. They believe that Irish athletics is going in the right direction. They appear to trust the association. I know it is difficult for you to comprehend but the majority of people involved in Irish athletics, while acknowledging difficulties, embrace the sport and actively attempt to improve the sport.
The high performance strategy is another step in the right direction. It will not cure all the ills of the sport but it does give us some hope for the future despite your repetitive negativity.

Hate to burst your bubble but a survey done on attitudes towards competitions in Ireland has nothing to do with whether the High Performance plan will work.

I feel sorry for the members if they trust the association because the actions of a few at the top of the hierarchy have blown a lot of their good money! You seem to have omitted that minor detail.

downthemiddle

FishnChips wrote: »

Hate to burst your bubble but a survey done on attitudes towards competitions in Ireland has nothing to do with whether the High Performance plan will work.

I feel sorry for the members if they trust the association because the actions of a few at the top of the hierarchy have blown a lot of their good money! You seem to have omitted that minor detail.

Sorry to disappoint you but it would take more than a myopic internet poster to burst my bubble.
I'm sure the members appreciate your sympathy though!

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by downthemiddle
Sorry to disappoint you but it would take more than a myopic internet poster to burst my bubble.
I'm sure the members appreciate your sympathy though!

You wouldn't happen to have shares in Anglo Irish by any chance?

downthemiddle

FishnChips wrote: »

You wouldn't happen to have shares in Anglo Irish by any chance?

An attempt at witticism.:eek: Don't give up the day job.