Gardaí want fingerprints taken in all arrests

Sykk

Garda Superintendents have called for new laws to allow for fingerprints to be taken from everyone who is arrested and brought to a garda station.
President of the Association of Garda Superintendents Jim Smith told its annual conference in Dublin today that this would not only be of great help in the investigation of crime but also protect arrested persons.
The law at present only allows fingerprints to be taken from people arrested for certain serious offences.
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The Association has also called for jury lists, which contain personal details of jury panel members to be made available only to legal representatives to prevent intimidation of jurors.
While the Association, like all other representative associations, is concerned with pay and conditions, it has recommended its members accept the Croke Park agreement.
However, it has today called on the Government to introduce new measures to tackle crime.
Superintendents say too much of their time is spent on investigations for the Garda Ombudsman, which the Commission should conduct itself.
Supt Smith also says the Association believes all gangland crime trials should be held in the Special Criminal Court.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0414/garda.html


Oh deary... I can see the upside but I don't think I'd be comfortable with this one. I don't have any criminal record, not even a ticket but still, it seems like a serious breach of privacy.

Bonito

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Can't see myself giving the guards a reason to take my prints.

bazmaiden

Bring on the one world government theorists

TheZohanS

Easy solution, don't act the bollocks and get arrested.

Son Of A Vidic

I thought that was already a standard practice, but obviously it's not. No wonder detection rates for some types of crime are low.

Gaz

I would go one further and get a DNA database of every person in the country ...

Only the guilty have something to hide.

Bonito

TheZohan wrote: »

Easy solution, don't act the bollocks and get arrested.

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter, sir. I shall PM you my bank details.

Dravokivich

Sykk wrote: »

it seems like a serious breach of privacy.

I would see it as a breach of privacy if someone did something to me. If finger prints of a possible suspect are found on the scene, I like the idea of a database of previously convicted criminals or individuals arrested after being brought to the attention of the Gardaí can be checked against.

I'm suprised to find out we don't...

Earthhorse

Garda Superintendents have called for new laws to allow for fingerprints to be taken from everyone who is arrested and brought to a garda station.

I don't know about taking fingerprints but I definitely agree that people who are arrested should be brought to a Garda station.

ScumLord

This will be a pain in the hole, if they already have your prints you don't have to stand around getting them done again do you?

Prof.Badass

Bonito wrote: »

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest. Can't see myself giving the guards a reason to take my prints.

So that makes it ok for all of society?

MagicSean

Dravokivich wrote: »

I would see it as a breach of privacy if someone did something to me. If finger prints of a possible suspect are found on the scene, I like the idea of a database of previously convicted criminals or individuals arrested after being brought to the attention of the Gardaí can be checked against.

I'm suprised to find out we don't...

Currently Gardaí can only compel fingerprints from someone who has been detained for questioning.

Earthhorse wrote: »

I don't know about taking fingerprints but I definitely agree that people who are arrested should be brought to a Garda station.

People who are arrested are always brought to a Garda station. There are a few exceptions (Juveniles brought home, people brought to hospital etc). The point of taking fingerprints of everyone who is arrested would be to eliminate the possability of someone giving a false name or address.

My name is URL

Don't see the problem. Too many crimes go unpunished due to lack of physical evidence as it is.

Bonito

vinylmesh wrote: »

So it's ok for all of society?

What exactly is your objection to giving your prints to the guardaí if you commit a crime?

MagicSean

ScumLord wrote: »

This will be a pain in the hole, if they already have your prints you don't have to stand around getting them done again do you?

Yes in case you are lying about your name and address. It only takes a minute on the new electronic systems to get your prints done. No inky mess.

Morlar

I honestly don't know why they were not doing this all along. I am sure there is some hippy lefty liberal reason for this but if you get arrested there is no sensible reason why the Gardai should not be taking your fingerprints. This is one of those 'no downside whatsoever' kind of things.

hooradiation

This would undoubtedly suffer from the same issue as a DNA database - that is to say the birthday problem makes false positives a hell of a lot more likely.


oh and before i forget

Morlar wrote: »

hippy lefty liberal reason

grow the hell up.

Morlar

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Mj Fox is that you ?

Gaz

Gaz wrote: »

I would go one further and get a DNA database of every person in the country ...

Only the guilty have something to hide.

sigh

I wish people would stop bleating this rubbish

Prof.Badass

Bonito wrote: »

What exactly is your objection to giving your prints to the guardaí if you commit a crime?

You don't need to commit a crime to be arrested. Innocent until proven guilty.

Slugs

Morlar wrote: »

I honestly don't know why they were not doing this all along. I am sure there is some hippy lefty liberal reason for this but if you get arrested there is no sensible reason why the Gardai should not be taking your fingerprints. This is one of those 'no downside whatsoever' kind of things.

I suppose you'd have no problem with an RFID chip being inserted into your arm. Or every detail about you kept in a personnel database, just to ensure your safety. There is a lot of downsides, despite your inclination to profess otherwise. Might be an idea to open your mind before decrying objectionists as hippy left liberalists. As someone else said, grow up.

MagicSean

bluewolf wrote: »

sigh

I wish people would stop bleating this rubbish

Not a great contribution there. I presume you are against the idea of a database for DNA? I don't see the problem with it if access is properly restricted.

Morlar

vinylmesh wrote: »

proven guilty.

This part might be easier with fingerprints.

Bonito

vinylmesh wrote: »

You don't need to commit a crime to be arrested. Innocent until proven guilty.

Yes, because the ratio of innocent people arrested for a crime is higher than those arrested who are guilty of committing a crime. :rolleyes:

Wile E. Coyote

I don't see the problem. It's not like they're going to be calling door to door to get everyones prints. They'll only be taken if your arrested. Why do people have an issue with that?

Also if it's not mandatory at the minute can someone tell me what crime you have to commit before they take your prints?

Morlar

Slugs wrote: »

I suppose you'd have no problem with an RFID chip being inserted into your arm. Or every detail about you kept in a personnel database, just to ensure your safety. There is a lot of downsides, despite your inclination to profess otherwise. Might be an idea to open your mind before decrying objectionists as hippy left liberalists. As someone else said, grow up.

Bullshít. No one is talking about implanting RF chips in innocent people. Stick to what the discussion is about instead of pretending it's about something completely different. & no I wont 'please think of the children' either.

MagicSean

Slugs wrote: »

I suppose you'd have no problem with an RFID chip being inserted into your arm. Or every detail about you kept in a personnel database, just to ensure your safety. There is a lot of downsides, despite your inclination to profess otherwise. Might be an idea to open your mind before decrying objectionists as hippy left liberalists. As someone else said, grow up.

Id have no problem with it. In this case I think you are over-reacting. The fingerprints would only be used to confirm your identity once you are in custody.

Bonito

Slugs wrote: »

I suppose you'd have no problem with an RFID chip being inserted into your arm. Or every detail about you kept in a personnel database, just to ensure your safety. There is a lot of downsides, despite your inclination to profess otherwise. Might be an idea to open your mind before decrying objectionists as hippy left liberalists. As someone else said, grow up.

That's a bit harsh. There's a difference between fingerprints being kept on file as opposed to authorities knowing what you had for breakfast.

Dunjohn

I'm not the only one here who thought that this was already done, then. Since I haven't had a problem up to now, I obviously won't have one if this is introduced. Can't see any downside.

MagicSean

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

I don't see the problem. It's not like they're going to be calling door to door to get everyones prints. They'll only be taken if your arrested. Why do people have an issue with that?

Also if it's not mandatory at the minute can someone tell me what crime you have to commit before they take your prints?

Anything which has a punishment of five years or more on first conviction.

Wile E. Coyote

k_mac wrote: »

Anything which has a punishment of five years or more on first conviction.

Thats it??? Bloody hell, you'd be lucky to see someone get 5 years for murder in this country!

CortezTheKiller

I personally would have no problem, but can anyone who sees downsides perhaps offer them up?

hooradiation

Bonito wrote: »

Yes, because the ratio of innocent people arrested for a crime is higher than those arrested who are guilty of committing a crime. :rolleyes:

Fair enough.
Now would you like to explain why you think that constitutes a rebuttal, because i don't see it.

CortezTheKiller wrote: »

I personally would have no problem, but can anyone who sees downsides perhaps offer them up?

Circumvents the principle of "Innocent until proven guilty"
And from a strictly pratical point of view - If the Gardaí start using the database to perform cold hits the chances of false positives rises astronomically.

Dilynnio

This is a great idea and I am surprised it has taken so long to be introduced.

With the rate of crime continually on the increase and the majority are repeat offenders then it is necesssary.

About time I say!

Donkey Oaty

It'll make no difference to the Abu Hamzas of this world, so a compulsory DNA database would mean that the terrorists have won.

I accept that I have not really thought this through.

Prof.Badass

Bonito wrote: »

Yes, because the ratio of innocent people arrested for a crime is higher than those arrested who are guilty of committing a crime. :rolleyes:

A fair and just system works on absolutes. A system based on ratios or likelihoods is inherantly unfair. It has injustice built into it.

Slugs

Morlar wrote: »

Bullshít. No one is talking about implanting RF chips in innocent people. Stick to what the discussion is about instead of pretending it's about something completely different. & no I wont 'please think of the children' either.

What, and you don't think this'll be a precedent, wake up and smell the coffee, instead of living in fairyland. Do you honestly think that this is just going to end with fingerprints. That's where these things'll start. They already use mobile phones to track movements, and if we accept this, pretty soon we'll start going down the road of RFID chips. If you stopped thinking about the children for a second, and thought about this rationally, you'd see this would set what we adults call, a legal precedent. And as for your "think of the children", I say "**** the children"

Bonito

hooradiation wrote: »

Fair enough.
Now would you like to explain why you think that constitutes a rebuttal, because i don't see it.



Circumvents the principle of "Innocent until proven guilty"
And from a strictly pratical point of view - If the Gardaí start using the database to perform cold hits the chances of false positives rises astronomically.

It's simple, really. How often do you get genuine caught in the wrong place at the wrong time situations? AGS are not stupid. They'd rarely pull in an innocent by-stander and cart them to the station. You're still innocent until proven guilty. That's evident from your rights. You're always arrested on suspicion of whatever.

Upon examining and questioning an arrested person and the AGS choose to charge them then their prints should be taken. If they're let go without charge then the AGS have no reason to have their prints unless they're a previous offender.

dsmythy

bluewolf wrote: »

sigh

I wish people would stop bleating this rubbish

Explain it's rubbishness to us.

Wile E. Coyote

hooradiation wrote: »

Circumvents the principle of "Innocent until proven guilty"

Since when does having your prints taken prove that your guilty? If anything it goes towards proving your innocent.

Morlar

Slugs wrote: »

What, and you don't think this'll be a precedent, wake up and smell the coffee, instead of living in fairyland. Do you honestly think that this is just going to end with fingerprints. That's where these things'll start. They already use mobile phones to track movements, and if we accept this, pretty soon we'll start going down the road of RFID chips. If you stopped thinking about the children for a second, and thought about this rationally, you'd see this would set what we adults call, a legal precedent. And as for your "think of the children", I say "**** the children"

Ah the old 'waaaahh waaaaahhh , this could lead to something completely different mwaaaaah ' rationale. I think this thread is heading into Godwin land. Utter paranoid hippy twaddle. Fingerprints for anyone who is arrested for ANYTHING. This thread needs a poll.

Bonito

vinylmesh wrote: »

A fair and just system works on absolutes. A system based on ratios or likelihoods is inherantly unfair. It has injustice built into it.

So you believe prints should only be taken in a caught red handed situation?

gerryjc

Really can't understand why it hasn't been done already.

The criminals are contantly using new methods and technologies to commit thir crimes. How can we expect the Gardai to bring crime rates down if they are not given the powers to do so.

The gang-bangers know these legal loopholes inside out, that's why they are continuosly recruiting young-lads who have never been arrested for anything serious to carry out some of the most heinous crimes. If they're prints are found at the scene there is nothing to identify them against.

Mrmoe

I think they should take this one step further again and finger print every person in the country in combination with a genetic database. It would make crime prevention much easier.

charlemont

fingerprinting is already very common in garda stations, but they destroy them after a length of time, fingerprinting is also done in the prisons, they are kept on file. in a 6 year period, i had my prints taken at least twice in a garda station with the ink roller, and i have no objection to gardai taking prints of people, it could help eliminate a suspect within minutes. although technology has gone well ahead, now we should be talking about dna, skin cells saliva hair etc as evidence

Wile E. Coyote

Morlar wrote: »

Ah the old 'waaaahh waaaaahhh , this could lead to something completely different mwaaaaah ' rationale.

It's all true I tell ya. I saw it on an episode of the twilight zone once :rolleyes:

Bonito

charlemont wrote: »

fingerprinting is already very common in garda stations, but they destroy them after a length of time, fingerprinting is also done in the prisons, they are kept on file. in a 6 year period, i had my prints taken at least twice in a garda station with the ink roller, and i have no objection to gardai taking prints of people, it could help eliminate a suspect within minutes. although technology has gone well ahead, now we should be talking about dna, skin cells saliva hair etc as evidence

Do you mind me asking what the situation was that the Guardaí took your prints and you had no objection to it?

Naos

hooradiation wrote: »

Circumvents the principle of "Innocent until proven guilty"
And from a strictly pratical point of view - If the Gardaí start using the database to perform cold hits the chances of false positives rises astronomically.

How does taking your fingerprints infer you as guilty?

Sofa King Great

I read this:

Slugs wrote: »

What, and you don't think this'll be a precedent, wake up and smell the coffee, instead of living in fairyland. Do you honestly think that this is just going to end with fingerprints. That's where these things'll start. They already use mobile phones to track movements, and if we accept this, pretty soon we'll start going down the road of RFID chips. If you stopped thinking about the children for a second, and thought about this rationally, you'd see this would set what we adults call, a legal precedent. And as for your "think of the children", I say "**** the children"

But i thought this:



I really don't see what the problem is with this. If this helps to increase the detection rates of the Gardai and as such take some dangerous people off the street i am all for it..

As others have said if you do nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about. I hve managed to go 25 years without getting arrested or set up for a crime i didn't commit by the gardai so i don't see that changing

Slugs

I saw this

Sofa King Great wrote: »

And thought this:

hooradiation

Bonito wrote: »

It's simple, really. How often do you get genuine caught in the wrong place at the wrong time situations? AGS are not stupid. They'd rarely pull in an innocent by-stander and cart them to the station. You're still innocent until proven guilty. That's evident from your rights. You're always arrested on suspicion of whatever.

As someone said earlier a fair justice system is built on absolutes.
Going "ahh now, that doesn't happen that often" as a rebuttal flies directly in the face if this.

Bonito wrote: »

Upon examining and questioning an arrested person and the AGS choose to charge them then their prints should be taken. If they're let go without charge then the AGS have no reason to have their prints unless they're a previous offender.

This makes sense. However, it's not what is being called for

from the OP
"Garda Superintendents have called for new laws to allow for fingerprints to be taken from everyone who is arrested and brought to a garda station."

So if you happen to be arrested then you're printed, despite the fact that your guilt has not been determined.

And there is still the statistical problems that systems like this present, which coupled with the above make this system something i do not approve of.