Reduction in Nursing Numbers

OMD

Liam Doran on radio today is saying there has been a 1900 reduction in the number of nurses in Ireland in last 2 years.
Has the health service worsened as a result of this reduction?

Permabear

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OMD

donegalfella wrote: »

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A 1900 reduction saves the country €100,000,000 a year in a pretty painless way.

Permabear

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murf313

donegalfella wrote: »

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i thought nurses didnt do lowly tasks? is that not what care assistants do? (make beds etc.) maybe if nurses took on these tasks again there would be no need for these care assistant types? (i dont how many of these work for the hse)

Welease

(disclaimer: I am not a nurse, I don't want to be a nurse, and I don't know any nurses )...

but I did read on other threads, that our health systems is not directly comparable to other countries such as France or the UK because they have a different structure to Ireland with lots more services based in the community, and thus not performed by staff who would strictly be termed "nurses", the headcount and overall cost would still be similar.

True or not.. I have no idea..

bamboozle

i dare not voice my opinion on our nurses less Liam Doran come on here and tell me to shut up....

of all the union leaders he's the one who i find most annoying...and with the crowd that's out there believe me that's some achievement!

dubhthach

I was under the impression that the figure for total number of nurses in ireland that Harney likes to bandy about is that of nurses who are registered with an Bord Altranais. This register includes nurses who are both working and not (career break/ unpaid leave etc.) so it's not a valid metric to be using.

Sponge Bob

dubhthach wrote: »

I was under the impression that the figure for total number of nurses in ireland that Harney likes to bandy about is that of nurses who are registered with an Bord Altranais. This register includes nurses who are both working and not (career break/ unpaid leave etc.) so it's not a valid metric to be using.

Their registration semilapses after 5 years out and they must do a refresher course thereafter. The 1900 nurses Doran is on about may have died naturally or taken career breaks in c.2005 or merely buggered off back to the Phillipines c.2005 or indeed on to the States and therefore lapsed.

Dr Galen

donegalfella wrote: »

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Where did you get those figura from DF I'd be interested in taking a look at them. Not dismissing them but would be interested in the breakdown and detail of them.

WalterMitty

Sure the younger nurses are hungover half the time in my experience so if the 1900 are younger temps then they are no big loss.

Permabear

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Dr Galen

It's cool. I'll have afoot about myself later on. Your point stands though. There has been a serious increase in numbers of nurses. I'd suggest though it isn't as black and White as it may seem.

Therein lies the problem though. Effective workforce planning in healthcare requires accurate and detailed figures and stats. Sadly lacking in yhis country

rightwingdub

They could probably get rid of another 5,000 nurse at least, Ireland has a very favourable nurses per 1,000 ppulation compared to other OECD something which Liam Doran nevers likes to point out thanks to the trade union demarcation that plagues the HSE.

The HSE could lose 7,000 nurses and they wouldn't notice it on condition taht the nurses became more flexible as regards work practices.

Chuchoter

From my limited experience in hospitals, there are millions of nurses for like 3 doctors, yet they still end up doing stuff that has nothing to do with being a nurse (delivering charts/tracking down scans). The system is pretty screwed that you can have so many nurses and they still end up having to do stuff outside of their jobs

Dr Galen

rightwingdub wrote: »

They could probably get rid of another 5,000 nurse at least, Ireland has a very favourable nurses per 1,000 ppulation compared to other OECD something which Liam Doran nevers likes to point out thanks to the trade union demarcation that plagues the HSE.

The HSE could lose 7,000 nurses and they wouldn't notice it on condition taht the nurses became more flexible as regards work practices.

Your last point is incredibly specific. Care to elaborate on how you reached such a conclusion?

murf313

rightwingdub wrote: »

They could probably get rid of another 5,000 nurse at least, Ireland has a very favourable nurses per 1,000 ppulation compared to other OECD something which Liam Doran nevers likes to point out thanks to the trade union demarcation that plagues the HSE.

The HSE could lose 7,000 nurses and they wouldn't notice it on condition taht the nurses became more flexible as regards work practices.

have you ever worked in a hospital??? why do people think they are qualified to comment on things on this board that they have no idea about?? as long as its something to do with the public service....

Dr Galen

Total of Nurses and Qualifications Registered 2005

Nurses Registered Active Inactive Female Male Total
Number of Nurses 62,639 15,913 72,596 5,956 78,552

Qualifications Registered Female Male Active Inactive Total
General 63,327 2,826 52,598 13,555 66,153
Psychiatric 8,273 3,520 9,417 2,376 11,793
Children's 4,691 53 3,859 885 4,744
Intellectual Disability 3,992 481 3,890 583 4,473
Midwifery 17,041 20 13,179 3,882 17,061
Public Health 2,674 1 2,173 502 2,675
Tutor 558 103 527 134 661
Other 585 25 276 334 610
Total 101,141 7,029 85,919 22,251 108,170



Verifications 2005 2004

United Kingdom 440 856
Other EU 25 18
Australia 718 572
USA 151 297
Canada 30 36
Other 79 39
Total Requests

1,443
1,818
Total Nurses 973 1,443

Dr Galen

Total of Nurses and Qualifications Registered 2009

Nurses Registered Active Inactive Female Male Total
Number of Nurses 68,483 21,021 82,500 7,004 89,504

Qualifications Registered Female Male Active Inactive Total
Children's 5,127 78 4,077 1,128 5,205
General 71,432 3,531 57,219 17,744 74,963
Intellectual Disability 4,588 547 4,358 777 5,135
Midwives 17,866 26 12,808 5,084 17,892
Nurse Prescriber 124 11 134 1 135
Psychiatric 9.256 3,828 9,801 3,283 13,084
Public Health 3,155 5 2,439 721 3,160
Tutors' 638 115 571 182 753
Other 579 26 218 387 605
Total 112,765 8,167 91,625 29,307 120,932

Verification Requests 2009 2008
United Kingdom 630 272
Other EU 26 16
Australia 1,963 4,896
Canada 410 282
USA 84 88
Other non-EU 80 69
Total Requests 3,193 5,623
Total Nurses 2,714 3,108

Dr Galen

sorry about the formatting above. I'll try tidy it up a little more, but it is readable I think

I got those stats from nursingboard.ie if anyone is interested. They are the regulatory body for nurses in this country and maintain the nursing register etc. As you can see the stats are broken down in active and inactive, and detail where peoples registration are held, i.e in what field.

The site only has online access to figures back as far as 2005, but still 5 years is a good enough comparision. They clearly show an increase in registered nurses, as has been pointed out. Unfortunately though, it does not show where these nurses are working, i.e public hospitals/care or private. This would be an interesting addition

irishh_bob

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Nurses are as bad, if not worse, as anybody else for demarcation bull**** ("that's not my job"), fake sick leave, sitting on their lazy asses sipping tea etc. And yes, I'm PS and worked in a hospital for years....

nurses are the one public sector group who are likely to recieve support from the general public regarding opposition to pay cuts - strikes etc , teachers , guards , firemen , forget it , nurses hold a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i put this down to the fact that traditionally a very high percentage of irish women worked as nurses , beit overseas or here at home , therefore , to criticise nurses is for a lot of people , to bad mouth your own mom

p.s , my mom is a retired nurse

murf313

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Nurses are as bad, if not worse, as anybody else for demarcation bull**** ("that's not my job"), fake sick leave, sitting on their lazy asses sipping tea etc. And yes, I'm PS and worked in a hospital for years....

i only have experience with a&e and paed nurses. they worked their arses off the whole time i was with them! especially the paediatric nurses, i have nothing but admiration for them!

Dr Galen

There are ways of phrasing things Irishh_bob

I wouldn't deem the post you quoted as anything more than ranty bull****. If someone wants to really get into it, discuss the issues and look at the facts and figures then I'll totally engage and discuss. If you stick around long enough, I'll even stand up and say I was wrong on things, if someone can prove it. Too often lately, the standard of post on the forum has been only marginally above that of shouty taxi driver hyperbole (sorrt taxi drivers, you know what i mean ). How can anyone engage with that? I say lets discuss the facts, the failings and the positives, without resorting to what we see posted above, nothing but unfounded and unhelpful crapola.

murf313

irishh_bob wrote: »

nurses are the one public sector group who are likely to recieve support from the general public regarding opposition to pay cuts - strikes etc , teachers , guards , firemen , forget it , nurses hold a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i put this down to the fact that traditionally a very high percentage of irish women worked as nurses , beit overseas or here at home , therefore , to criticise nurses is for a lot of people , to bad mouth your own mom

p.s , my mom is a retired nurse

im pretty sure you have posted this exact post before...... do you have a database of anti-ps posts?

Dr Galen

he's not far from the truth though tbh Murf.

The Florence Nightingale BS stills surrounds nursing as a profession. Personally, i think its a crock, and Nightingale was definitely not the angel that she's now made out to be. Its a whole other argument and thread to be fair though. I'd much rather peole had adniration and respect for nursing because of the work that is actually done, and the skills requireed, rather than some fuzzy wuzzy cuddly nonsense that everyone thinks its about.

nesf

Dr Galen wrote: »

Total of Nurses and Qualifications Registered 2009



Qualifications Registered Female Male Active Inactive Total
Children's 5,127 78 4,077 1,128 5,205
General 71,432 3,531 57,219 17,744 74,963
Intellectual Disability 4,588 547 4,358 777 5,135
Midwives 17,866 26 12,808 5,084 17,892
Nurse Prescriber 124 11 134 1 135
Psychiatric 9.256 3,828 9,801 3,283 13,084
Public Health 3,155 5 2,439 721 3,160
Tutors' 638 115 571 182 753
Other 579 26 218 387 605
Total 112,765 8,167 91,625 29,307 120,932

Ok, this is bizarre but looking at those numbers:

We've had one of the 26 men working as Midwives take care of us and have one of the 5 male Public Health nurses looking after us. Weird.

OMD

irishh_bob wrote: »

nurses are the one public sector group who are likely to recieve support from the general public regarding opposition to pay cuts - strikes etc , teachers , guards , firemen , forget it , nurses hold a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i put this down to the fact that traditionally a very high percentage of irish women worked as nurses , beit overseas or here at home , therefore , to criticise nurses is for a lot of people , to bad mouth your own mom

p.s , my mom is a retired nurse

If Mary Harney announced she was going to get rid of 1900 nurses there would be outrage. The newspapers and TV would be full of it. Joe Duffy would survive for months on it.

The reality is, according to Liam Doran, this has already happened and from what I can see the health service has not fared any worse in the last 2 years without these 1900 nurses.

Frequently on this site the point is made about how important "Frontline workers" are. Are they really needed in such numbers?

rightwingdub

OMD wrote: »

If Mary Harney announced she was going to get rid of 1900 nurses there would be outrage. The newspapers and TV would be full of it. Joe Duffy would survive for months on it.

The reality is, according to Liam Doran, this has already happened and from what I can see the health service has not fared any worse in the last 2 years without these 1900 nurses.

Frequently on this site the point is made about how important "Frontline workers" are. Are they really needed in such numbers?

No they are not needed in such frontline numbers, In 2004 Ireland had 15.0 nurses per 1,000 population, that compares very favourable to other OECD countries, as I've said already getting rid of 5,000 nurses would not make the health service any worse. Its time to slay this sacred cow myth that nurses are somehow saints and should be exempt from pay cuts.

Dr Galen

would you like to answer the question I put to you specifically above?

mumtoe&e

murf313 wrote: »

i thought nurses didnt do lowly tasks? is that not what care assistants do? (make beds etc.) maybe if nurses took on these tasks again there would be no need for these care assistant types? (i dont how many of these work for the hse)

I am a student Midwife - in the hospital I work in - Midwives do indeed make beds, clean, and mop up the floors in the labour ward....

beeno67

mumtoe&e wrote: »

I am a student Midwife - in the hospital I work in - Midwives do indeed make beds, clean, and mop up the floors in the labour ward....

Sounds like a pretty poor use of resouces. Pay a nurse 60K a year instead of paying a cleaner 20K. Do they have cleaners/assistants as well or do nurses do all the bed making and floor mopping?

mumtoe&e

beeno67 wrote: »

Sounds like a pretty poor use of resouces. Pay a nurse 60K a year instead of paying a cleaner 20K. Do they have cleaners/assistants as well or do nurses do all the bed making and floor mopping?

Where are you getting your 60k per year???
Have you seen the starting point of the nursing/midwifery payscale - obviously NOT!

Welease

mumtoe&e wrote: »

Where are you getting your 60k per year???
Have you seen the starting point of the nursing/midwifery payscale - obviously NOT!

Can Nurses/Midwives not move beyond the start point of the scale? /shocked

mumtoe&e

Welease wrote: »

Can Nurses/Midwives not move beyond the start point of the scale? /shocked

Indeed they can.... but as you will see from the link below, it is the HIGHER grades that earn the 60k!!!
The max point of the nursing/midwifery salary scale is 43,800 which takes 13 years to get to that point!!!


http://www.inmo.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

Welease

mumtoe&e wrote: »

Indeed they can.... but as you will see from the link below, it is the HIGHER grades that earn the 60k!!!
The max point of the nursing/midwifery salary scale is 43,800 which takes 13 years to get to that point!!!


http://www.inmo.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

So... can a clinical nurse/midwife who is paid 55K not end up making beds?

Head The Wall

mumtoe&e wrote: »

Indeed they can.... but as you will see from the link below, it is the HIGHER grades that earn the 60k!!!
The max point of the nursing/midwifery salary scale is 43,800 which takes 13 years to get to that point!!!


http://www.inmo.ie/DesktopModules/Articles/ArticlesView.aspx?TabID=35&ItemID=3625&mid=6977

What about allowances. they are relevant here

behan29

allowances/perks in nursing are little to non-existant, ie army/gardai etc, it is well banded in the media the amount of nurses per head in this country, however, many nurses work on a part time basis so there may be a large amount of nurses but they are not working full time. allowances in nursing are slim pickings, ie nights and weekend pay in particular sundays. Look at gardai/army, clothes allownaces, nurses have begged to have their uniforms provided for by the hospitals and cleaned in the hospital, this would reduce mras rates significatly. unfortunately the ethos in the hse is "sure its not my job", ie washing beds etc.The standard of care in this country is very good in comparison to the uk, more nurses on the wards means basic care can be given, unlike in uk hospitals which are ran by health care assistants. I am qualified 8 years and i am on 37000 euro p/a.

Head The Wall

Thanks for that, I know they wouldn't get as many allowances as the starving gardai. What percentage of nurses are working part time by choice?

mumtoe&e

Oh I would love some of you to spend a week doing the work of a midwife or nurse!!!

I have just finished first year Midwifery - and although I will hopefully successfully complete the course - I am in serious doubt about it - nurses and midwives are working on their last nerve - and unless you see this first hand you would never even begin to imagine what they are being put through....

Allowances?????? Night duty & Sunday allowance - that is where it ends!!!

Head The Wall

mumtoe&e wrote: »

Oh I would love some of you to spend a week doing the work of a midwife or nurse!!!

I have just finished first year Midwifery - and although I will hopefully successfully complete the course - I am in serious doubt about it - nurses and midwives are working on their last nerve - and unless you see this first hand you would never even begin to imagine what they are being put through....

Allowances?????? Night duty & Sunday allowance - that is where it ends!!!

No one is saying it is easy. I always say "everyone to their own job" why don't you do what I do for a living for a week and see how you get on at it. Most jobs are a pain in the ass, difficult, many can be stressful and most people don't like working.

If you don't like what you are doing change, plenty of people change careers. I'm on my 3rd incarnation myself but heading back to my original choice again

Padraig Mor

mumtoe&e wrote: »

Where are you getting your 60k per year???
Have you seen the starting point of the nursing/midwifery payscale - obviously NOT!

Average pay for a full time nurse in the HSE in 2007 was €57k. Rather higher now presumably.

behan29 wrote: »

allowances/perks in nursing are little to non-existant, iea.

The INO have previously stated that nurses on average add approx. 25% to their pay through the many allowances they are eligible for.

behan29

be rest assaured i do not earn any where near 57000, if i did i wouldnt be driving the equivalant of a skip and i work full time, the allowances of nights and sunday/bank holiday pay make a huge difference, you can be on nights on average once every 6 weeks and sunday pay makes all the difference.

beeno67

mumtoe&e wrote: »

Allowances?????? Night duty & Sunday allowance - that is where it ends!!!

You say that as if it is nothing. For working Sundays a nurse gets paid double time. So a nurse working only 5 Sundays a year will get 10% extra. So a midwife with 10 years experience working 5 Sundays a year will get €47,000. He/She will also get extra for working Saturdays and may get allowances based on qualifications.

Padraig Mor

behan29 wrote: »

be rest assaured i do not earn any where near 57000, if i did i wouldnt be driving the equivalant of a skip.

Maybe not, but many of your colleagues are. Your car comment reminds me of the nurses' conference a few years ago (think they were threatening to strike at the time) where one of the nurse head honchos bemoaned how she couldn't change her four year old car for a brand new one she was so poor.....

behan29

i got my p60 and i earned 46000, i work full time in a very specialised area,i work nites every 6-8 weeks and i worked over the xmas/easetr and bank holiday weekends and i do a bucketload of sundays, and i am qualified 8 years.

beeno67

behan29 wrote: »

. I am qualified 8 years and i am on 37000 euro p/a.

Good news. You are been underpaid. I assume you work 9-5, never do Saturdays, Sundays or Bank Holidays. You also have just the basic qualifications and do not work in a specialist area.

Even allowing for this, your pay should be €39,952 based on the INMO website. Better claim it quickly or they may refuse to pay it to you.

beeno67

behan29 wrote: »

i got my p60 and i earned 46000, i work full time in a very specialised area,i work nites every 6-8 weeks and i worked over the xmas/easetr and bank holiday weekends and i do a bucketload of sundays, and i am qualified 8 years.

Your P60 does not give your gross pay. So your actual gross pay will be substantially higher than this.

By the way well done for suddenly getting such a massive pay rise, you were only earning €37,000 a few hours ago

behan29

inmo pay scale is 37000, as i stated earlier allowances make a huge difference, hence the 47000(gross pay)

beeno67

behan29 wrote: »

inmo pay scale is 37000, as i stated earlier allowances make a huge difference, hence the 47000(gross pay)

Your basic pay after 8 years should be €39,952 not the €37,000 you are saying.

As I said P60 does not give gross pay. If your P60 says you are getting €47,000 that means your gross pay is about €54,000. Not too far off the €57,000 quoted previously. Obviously you are only qualified 8 years and the average nurse would be qualified a lot longer than this and may have been promoted.

behan29

honsetly my pay slip says i am on 37000, my average wage is approx 540 per week and that includes nights, i am far from saying we are underpaid, but it isnt exactly a fun job, personally i cant stand the unions/mafia of this country, certain areas the health profession do not require nurses on a similar pay scale to mine. Nursing/midwifery is specialised and the pay we earn is deserved, i am not on the bread line like a lot of people, as my friend syas who is in the army "i will never be rich and i will never be poor"

beeno67

behan29 wrote: »

honsetly my pay slip says i am on 37000, my average wage is approx 540 per week and that includes nights, i am far from saying we are underpaid, but it isnt exactly a fun job, personally i cant stand the unions/mafia of this country, certain areas the health profession do not require nurses on a similar pay scale to mine. Nursing/midwifery is specialised and the pay we earn is deserved, i am not on the bread line like a lot of people, as my friend syas who is in the army "i will never be rich and i will never be poor"

If you are 8 years qualified then according to INMO you are underpaid. The basic for someone 8 years qualified is €39,952 after recent pay cut. Your anual gross pay though is 54,000 roughly based on what you have said about your P60.