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Reduction in Nursing Numbers

  • 13-04-2010 01:36PM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭


    Liam Doran on radio today is saying there has been a 1900 reduction in the number of nurses in Ireland in last 2 years.
    Has the health service worsened as a result of this reduction?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    This post has been deleted.


    A 1900 reduction saves the country €100,000,000 a year in a pretty painless way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    This post has been deleted.
    i thought nurses didnt do lowly tasks? is that not what care assistants do? (make beds etc.) maybe if nurses took on these tasks again there would be no need for these care assistant types? (i dont how many of these work for the hse)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    (disclaimer: I am not a nurse, I don't want to be a nurse, and I don't know any nurses ;))...

    but I did read on other threads, that our health systems is not directly comparable to other countries such as France or the UK because they have a different structure to Ireland with lots more services based in the community, and thus not performed by staff who would strictly be termed "nurses", the headcount and overall cost would still be similar.

    True or not.. I have no idea..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭bamboozle


    i dare not voice my opinion on our nurses less Liam Doran come on here and tell me to shut up....

    of all the union leaders he's the one who i find most annoying...and with the crowd that's out there believe me that's some achievement!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    I was under the impression that the figure for total number of nurses in ireland that Harney likes to bandy about is that of nurses who are registered with an Bord Altranais. This register includes nurses who are both working and not (career break/ unpaid leave etc.) so it's not a valid metric to be using.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    dubhthach wrote: »
    I was under the impression that the figure for total number of nurses in ireland that Harney likes to bandy about is that of nurses who are registered with an Bord Altranais. This register includes nurses who are both working and not (career break/ unpaid leave etc.) so it's not a valid metric to be using.

    Their registration semilapses after 5 years out and they must do a refresher course thereafter. The 1900 nurses Doran is on about may have died naturally or taken career breaks in c.2005 or merely buggered off back to the Phillipines c.2005 or indeed on to the States and therefore lapsed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    This post has been deleted.

    Where did you get those figura from DF I'd be interested in taking a look at them. Not dismissing them but would be interested in the breakdown and detail of them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    Sure the younger nurses are hungover half the time in my experience so if the 1900 are younger temps then they are no big loss.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    It's cool. I'll have afoot about myself later on. Your point stands though. There has been a serious increase in numbers of nurses. I'd suggest though it isn't as black and White as it may seem.

    Therein lies the problem though. Effective workforce planning in healthcare requires accurate and detailed figures and stats. Sadly lacking in yhis country


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    They could probably get rid of another 5,000 nurse at least, Ireland has a very favourable nurses per 1,000 ppulation compared to other OECD something which Liam Doran nevers likes to point out thanks to the trade union demarcation that plagues the HSE.

    The HSE could lose 7,000 nurses and they wouldn't notice it on condition taht the nurses became more flexible as regards work practices.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Chuchoter


    From my limited experience in hospitals, there are millions of nurses for like 3 doctors, yet they still end up doing stuff that has nothing to do with being a nurse (delivering charts/tracking down scans). The system is pretty screwed that you can have so many nurses and they still end up having to do stuff outside of their jobs


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    They could probably get rid of another 5,000 nurse at least, Ireland has a very favourable nurses per 1,000 ppulation compared to other OECD something which Liam Doran nevers likes to point out thanks to the trade union demarcation that plagues the HSE.

    The HSE could lose 7,000 nurses and they wouldn't notice it on condition taht the nurses became more flexible as regards work practices.

    Your last point is incredibly specific. Care to elaborate on how you reached such a conclusion?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    They could probably get rid of another 5,000 nurse at least, Ireland has a very favourable nurses per 1,000 ppulation compared to other OECD something which Liam Doran nevers likes to point out thanks to the trade union demarcation that plagues the HSE.

    The HSE could lose 7,000 nurses and they wouldn't notice it on condition taht the nurses became more flexible as regards work practices.
    have you ever worked in a hospital??? why do people think they are qualified to comment on things on this board that they have no idea about?? as long as its something to do with the public service....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Total of Nurses and Qualifications Registered 2005

    Nurses Registered Active Inactive Female Male Total
    Number of Nurses 62,639 15,913 72,596 5,956 78,552

    Qualifications Registered Female Male Active Inactive Total
    General 63,327 2,826 52,598 13,555 66,153
    Psychiatric 8,273 3,520 9,417 2,376 11,793
    Children's 4,691 53 3,859 885 4,744
    Intellectual Disability 3,992 481 3,890 583 4,473
    Midwifery 17,041 20 13,179 3,882 17,061
    Public Health 2,674 1 2,173 502 2,675
    Tutor 558 103 527 134 661
    Other 585 25 276 334 610
    Total 101,141 7,029 85,919 22,251 108,170



    Verifications 2005 2004

    United Kingdom 440 856
    Other EU 25 18
    Australia 718 572
    USA 151 297
    Canada 30 36
    Other 79 39
    Total Requests

    1,443
    1,818
    Total Nurses 973 1,443


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    Total of Nurses and Qualifications Registered 2009
    Nurses Registered Active Inactive Female Male Total
    Number of Nurses 68,483 21,021 82,500 7,004 89,504

    Qualifications Registered Female Male Active Inactive Total
    Children's 5,127 78 4,077 1,128 5,205
    General 71,432 3,531 57,219 17,744 74,963
    Intellectual Disability 4,588 547 4,358 777 5,135
    Midwives 17,866 26 12,808 5,084 17,892
    Nurse Prescriber 124 11 134 1 135
    Psychiatric 9.256 3,828 9,801 3,283 13,084
    Public Health 3,155 5 2,439 721 3,160
    Tutors' 638 115 571 182 753
    Other 579 26 218 387 605
    Total 112,765 8,167 91,625 29,307 120,932
    Verification Requests 2009 2008
    United Kingdom 630 272
    Other EU 26 16
    Australia 1,963 4,896
    Canada 410 282
    USA 84 88
    Other non-EU 80 69
    Total Requests 3,193 5,623
    Total Nurses 2,714 3,108


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    sorry about the formatting above. I'll try tidy it up a little more, but it is readable I think :)

    I got those stats from nursingboard.ie if anyone is interested. They are the regulatory body for nurses in this country and maintain the nursing register etc. As you can see the stats are broken down in active and inactive, and detail where peoples registration are held, i.e in what field.

    The site only has online access to figures back as far as 2005, but still 5 years is a good enough comparision. They clearly show an increase in registered nurses, as has been pointed out. Unfortunately though, it does not show where these nurses are working, i.e public hospitals/care or private. This would be an interesting addition


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,700 ✭✭✭irishh_bob


    Nurses are as bad, if not worse, as anybody else for demarcation bull**** ("that's not my job"), fake sick leave, sitting on their lazy asses sipping tea etc. And yes, I'm PS and worked in a hospital for years....

    nurses are the one public sector group who are likely to recieve support from the general public regarding opposition to pay cuts - strikes etc , teachers , guards , firemen , forget it , nurses hold a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i put this down to the fact that traditionally a very high percentage of irish women worked as nurses , beit overseas or here at home , therefore , to criticise nurses is for a lot of people , to bad mouth your own mom

    p.s , my mom is a retired nurse


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    Nurses are as bad, if not worse, as anybody else for demarcation bull**** ("that's not my job"), fake sick leave, sitting on their lazy asses sipping tea etc. And yes, I'm PS and worked in a hospital for years....
    i only have experience with a&e and paed nurses. they worked their arses off the whole time i was with them! especially the paediatric nurses, i have nothing but admiration for them!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    There are ways of phrasing things Irishh_bob

    I wouldn't deem the post you quoted as anything more than ranty bull****. If someone wants to really get into it, discuss the issues and look at the facts and figures then I'll totally engage and discuss. If you stick around long enough, I'll even stand up and say I was wrong on things, if someone can prove it. Too often lately, the standard of post on the forum has been only marginally above that of shouty taxi driver hyperbole (sorrt taxi drivers, you know what i mean :)). How can anyone engage with that? I say lets discuss the facts, the failings and the positives, without resorting to what we see posted above, nothing but unfounded and unhelpful crapola.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    nurses are the one public sector group who are likely to recieve support from the general public regarding opposition to pay cuts - strikes etc , teachers , guards , firemen , forget it , nurses hold a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i put this down to the fact that traditionally a very high percentage of irish women worked as nurses , beit overseas or here at home , therefore , to criticise nurses is for a lot of people , to bad mouth your own mom

    p.s , my mom is a retired nurse
    im pretty sure you have posted this exact post before...... do you have a database of anti-ps posts? :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    he's not far from the truth though tbh Murf.

    The Florence Nightingale BS stills surrounds nursing as a profession. Personally, i think its a crock, and Nightingale was definitely not the angel that she's now made out to be. Its a whole other argument and thread to be fair though. I'd much rather peole had adniration and respect for nursing because of the work that is actually done, and the skills requireed, rather than some fuzzy wuzzy cuddly nonsense that everyone thinks its about.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Dr Galen wrote: »
    Total of Nurses and Qualifications Registered 2009



    Qualifications Registered Female Male Active Inactive Total
    Children's 5,127 78 4,077 1,128 5,205
    General 71,432 3,531 57,219 17,744 74,963
    Intellectual Disability 4,588 547 4,358 777 5,135
    Midwives 17,866 26 12,808 5,084 17,892
    Nurse Prescriber 124 11 134 1 135
    Psychiatric 9.256 3,828 9,801 3,283 13,084
    Public Health 3,155 5 2,439 721 3,160
    Tutors' 638 115 571 182 753
    Other 579 26 218 387 605
    Total 112,765 8,167 91,625 29,307 120,932

    Ok, this is bizarre but looking at those numbers:

    We've had one of the 26 men working as Midwives take care of us and have one of the 5 male Public Health nurses looking after us. Weird.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,458 ✭✭✭OMD


    irishh_bob wrote: »
    nurses are the one public sector group who are likely to recieve support from the general public regarding opposition to pay cuts - strikes etc , teachers , guards , firemen , forget it , nurses hold a uniquely special place in irish peoples hearts , they are the most sacred of sacred cows , i put this down to the fact that traditionally a very high percentage of irish women worked as nurses , beit overseas or here at home , therefore , to criticise nurses is for a lot of people , to bad mouth your own mom

    p.s , my mom is a retired nurse

    If Mary Harney announced she was going to get rid of 1900 nurses there would be outrage. The newspapers and TV would be full of it. Joe Duffy would survive for months on it.

    The reality is, according to Liam Doran, this has already happened and from what I can see the health service has not fared any worse in the last 2 years without these 1900 nurses.

    Frequently on this site the point is made about how important "Frontline workers" are. Are they really needed in such numbers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    OMD wrote: »
    If Mary Harney announced she was going to get rid of 1900 nurses there would be outrage. The newspapers and TV would be full of it. Joe Duffy would survive for months on it.

    The reality is, according to Liam Doran, this has already happened and from what I can see the health service has not fared any worse in the last 2 years without these 1900 nurses.

    Frequently on this site the point is made about how important "Frontline workers" are. Are they really needed in such numbers?

    No they are not needed in such frontline numbers, In 2004 Ireland had 15.0 nurses per 1,000 population, that compares very favourable to other OECD countries, as I've said already getting rid of 5,000 nurses would not make the health service any worse. Its time to slay this sacred cow myth that nurses are somehow saints and should be exempt from pay cuts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,373 ✭✭✭Dr Galen


    would you like to answer the question I put to you specifically above?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 220 ✭✭mumtoe&e


    murf313 wrote: »
    i thought nurses didnt do lowly tasks? is that not what care assistants do? (make beds etc.) maybe if nurses took on these tasks again there would be no need for these care assistant types? (i dont how many of these work for the hse)

    I am a student Midwife - in the hospital I work in - Midwives do indeed make beds, clean, and mop up the floors in the labour ward....


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    mumtoe&e wrote: »
    I am a student Midwife - in the hospital I work in - Midwives do indeed make beds, clean, and mop up the floors in the labour ward....

    Sounds like a pretty poor use of resouces. Pay a nurse 60K a year instead of paying a cleaner 20K. Do they have cleaners/assistants as well or do nurses do all the bed making and floor mopping?


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