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Irish Coursing Club offer €20,000 Reward

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    To be honest, that's a cop out. I don't have an opinion on whether there was interference on the anti-coursing side for the creation of propaganda, but if there was, you're saying that it's the stewards' fault for failing to stop them, rather than their fault for doing it in the first place. That's a really ridiculous line of argument.


    No it isn't. Part of this issue is the lack of care of the hares.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Courser's capture wild Hares & transport them to a meet where they are chased by dogs. By law they are allowed to do this on the strict understanding that the Hares will be constantly monitored & returned physically unharmed though we don't consider their mental state.

    We simply do not know for certain how, why, or even if the Hare died. It is not a cop out to point out that the stewards clearly did not carry out their obligations under the law.

    I agree that if & to me it is a very implausible if, this was staged then it would be wrong. However all the bluster & €20,000 reward has not provided one shred of evidence of wrongdoing by the Students who filmed this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    Who tied the wire around the hare's neck then as it is plainly visable?

    Powerstown park is a very big place and while it is easy to hide where they have hidden it is also a place where they undoubtably would have seen stewards from......thats not saying the stewards would have seen them where they have filmed from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    ppink wrote: »
    Who tied the wire around the hare's neck then as it is plainly visable?

    Powerstown park is a very big place and while it is easy to hide where they have hidden it is also a place where they undoubtably would have seen stewards from......thats not saying the stewards would have seen them where they have filmed from.

    They would seen Stewards but the Stewards might not of seen them !. They were two student with a big video camera & the Stewards have the job of monitoring the Hares. For your version of events to be true they would of had to been hanging around the Hare enclosure for ages without being seen.

    The drugged Hare, mysterious wire, no stewards etc makes this unbelievable. If this happened then the ICC would be showing the dead Hare & the wire to the world. Also it would mean that the Hares were left unsupervised for a long time in direct breach of the regulations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    I think you need to know the area to know what I am talking about.

    It does not appear to be done on anything bigger than a little camcorder.

    The wire???


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    It was filmed on one of these - hardly small. The wire that you claim was tied around the neck of the Hare. Why don't the ICC have the dead Hare complete with wire noose ?.

    100b2sm.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    do you think there is no wire then?

    i have shown the clip to others who care little about coursing right or wrong and the first question was what is the story with the wire. It is clearly visable from the clip I have watched.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Having read the Student's very detailed statement, it is available online, the video was filmed some distance from the Hare compound. This might account for why it appears to be poor quality even though it was shot with a pretty good camera.

    The video has been viewed by wildlife experts including specialist wildlife vets in the UK. Some say that there could be something around the Hare's neck others say that they think that it is a shadow. The majority concur that a Hare appears to collide with a pole.

    Coursing is allowed on the false premise that a muzzled Greyhound cannot hurt a Hare. Anyone who has owned or even walked a Greyhound will know that they possess remarkable strength. My girl has knocked me off my feet & heaven knows what she would of done if she hit a Hare the same way.

    One could just as easily allege that someone in the Coursing fraternity attached a snare to use the Hare for illegal blooding. There is no proof. The IGB would not risk €20,000 if they thought there was the slightest chance of paying out. It is clearly a publicity stunt which could backfire especially if the Students sue for defamation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,458 ✭✭✭ppink


    I am not really looking at the grief caused to the hare by coursing yet. my responses as an independant person are based on what I have seen here.

    The "shadow" is not what I am referring to by the wire as i agree that is not clear but what is very clear is that there is something, attached to the neck of the hare, beating off the ground as it is struggeling. It is as clear as day to me and others i have shown it to. I am not suggesting who put it there but the filming of it is somethign i would have a big issue with.
    The filming was not done at a great distance from the hare enclosure, knowing Powerstown Park I can see that clearly too.

    Either way whatever has gone on here is not nice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 525 ✭✭✭Tinytony


    The reponses on here are bizzare. So called animal-lovers not overly concerned about a hare being strangled, but more concerned in thinking they have got one over on the coursing club because they weren't able to stop the hare being strangled. Why are people on here trying to kid themselves that there is no wire in the film? It is as obvious as hell that there is, but the attitude on here is "even if there was a wire then it's the coursing clubs fault".

    There was a break-in at the course (reported to Gardai) prior to the meeting taking place and is believed that this is win this cruel act was filmed, not during the actual coursing festival itself and that is even if it was filmed at powerstown at all. As there are no wide pan shots of the hare being strangled it could easily have been filmed elsewhere and then edited into the other footage.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    Tinytony wrote: »
    The reponses on here are bizzare. So called animal-lovers not overly concerned about a hare being strangled, but more concerned in thinking they have got one over on the coursing club because they weren't able to stop the hare being strangled. Why are people on here trying to kid themselves that there is no wire in the film? It is as obvious as hell that there is, but the attitude on here is "even if there was a wire then it's the coursing clubs fault".

    There was a break-in at the course (reported to Gardai) prior to the meeting taking place and is believed that this is win this cruel act was filmed, not during the actual coursing festival itself and that is even if it was filmed at powerstown at all. As there are no wide pan shots of the hare being strangled it could easily have been filmed elsewhere and then edited into the other footage.


    Sadly many of these matters come down to politics do they not?

    Many here care very deeply indeed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    If the Students are guilty of breaking & entering then charge them. I am not surprised that the ICC are trying the break in tactic. The Hares are monitored constantly from capture to release or they are supposed to be. So where were the stewards during the supposed break in ?. In any event the ICC are hardly likely to admit the truth if it would incriminate them.

    The so called animal lovers are concerned about the way that the barbaric "sport" of Hare Coursing which is banned elsewhere continues in Ireland. This was one Hare of hundreds that are subjected to unacceptable abuse. This animal lover would chose to believe the testimony of two Swedish students rather than that of an organisation who has no interest in animal welfare.


  • Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭charlesanto


    I have watched the video and am 100% satisfied that the hare is restrained.

    I watched the video before the ICC or anyone else made statements/press releases and at that stage formed the opinion that the film was staged.

    I have no direct or indirect involvement in coursing and have no strong views on whether coursing should or should not be banned.
    After watching this video i do however have strong feelings against animal rights activists.

    I also recommend that people read the press release on the ICC website themselves because "Discodog" has misquoted it several times on this thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭tomybhoy


    I too am 100% sure that there is a wire around the hares neck, not only was the wire around the hares neck but it is evident from the video that the students should have been able to film the person pulling the hares neck as well with no bother.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF3L7BplMwg

    That is the hare being strangled in slow motion, there is also another video about to be released that will show the perimeter on the enclosure and a quick scan with the camera would have caught the culprit, that is of course if they wanted the culprit to be caught, it is rumoured that one of the students signed a petition before going into powerstown, it is also rumoured that they had links with people in Ireland, all will be revealed in due course if my source is correct.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    What have I misquoted please elucidate. These are direct quotes:

    "A second inspection of the video by ICC officials and members as well as IT and veterinary experts"

    Who are these "experts" & where is their report ?. Why are they not named so that their testimony can be questioned.

    "On Tuesday, 30 March 2010, a disturbingly engineered video"

    Where is the proof that the video was engineered ?. If the ICC had proof why wouldn't they show it ?.

    I could go on & on but anyone can read the statement for themselves. It was made by an organisation that supports capturing wild hares & then allowing dogs to chase them yet we are supposed to believe that they care about the welfare of the Hares.

    I am amazed at all the people who do not have a view pro or against coursing but that study this video in forensic detail & read ICC statements. These people also seem to openly blame those that oppose animal cruelty again with no evidence of wrong doing.

    If there is nothing wrong with Coursing why don't people just say so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 38 Gortglas


    Ok time for some facts on the matter gathered from researching this topic and mainly form the ICC Website.

    -30th March, thei video was edited and released on the YouTube by Bernie Wright of the association of hunt sabateurs, ICABS and numerous other organisations operating under the umbrella of welfare and operating from 'PO BOx 4374'. Comments appeared in the media, via letteres to Editors etc almost instantly for numerous welfare organisations, hitting out at the ICC (Irish Coursing Club). These included 'Greyhound Action', 'Stop Huntingdon Animal Cruelty', 'Association of Hunt Sabateours', 'ICABS', 'Alliance for Animal Rights' etc... Funnily enough all of these 'welfare groups' operate form the same PO Box and are all orchestrated by the same small groups of people. These people prey on the heart strings of the masses with shock tactics and untruths, and will stop at nothing to get their point accross. This video and subsequent press release was planned with precision.

    - On first viewing of the video, there are a numer of flaws. In the early part of the video you can clearly hear the noise of the 13,000+ crowd on Powerstown park and the tannoy announcements, but there is silence when the hare compound is being filmed. This cannot have been on any of the dasy of the coursing meeting. (for those unfamiliar the hares would be caught, vacinated and fed in the compound in the days leading up to the national coursing meeting). During the course of the national meeting the hare compound is manned by stewards and security personell, if this happend during that time, why did the person filming think it more imprtant to 'get the shot' rather than alert somebody who could have called one of the onsite vets (there were 3) to asist the clearly restrained hare.

    - There is clearly a wire restraining and shaking the hare during this video. This is absolutely vile behaviour by people claiming to represent animal welfare.

    - So when did this happen. Well there was a break-in to the hare compound on the day previous to the national meeting. The damage to the fence was in proximity to the camera angle and the direction from with the wire was being pulled. This break-in was reported to the Gardai at the time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    just watched the video i am a city boy with no connections to coursing one way or the other

    the hare is most definitely restrained

    the story does all sound a bit suspect and i hope the truth does come out asap


  • Registered Users Posts: 18 Tarsna


    Discodog wrote: »
    What have I misquoted please elucidate. These are direct quotes:

    "A second inspection of the video by ICC officials and members as well as IT and veterinary experts"

    Who are these "experts" & where is their report ?. Why are they not named so that their testimony can be questioned.

    "On Tuesday, 30 March 2010, a disturbingly engineered video"

    Where is the proof that the video was engineered ?. If the ICC had proof why wouldn't they show it ?.

    I could go on & on but anyone can read the statement for themselves. It was made by an organisation that supports capturing wild hares & then allowing dogs to chase them yet we are supposed to believe that they care about the welfare of the Hares.

    I am amazed at all the people who do not have a view pro or against coursing but that study this video in forensic detail & read ICC statements. These people also seem to openly blame those that oppose animal cruelty again with no evidence of wrong doing.

    If there is nothing wrong with Coursing why don't people just say so.


    Disco Dog

    You are full of misinformation

    YOU are not being informed because it is a art of a Gaudi investigation....and YOU are not privy to this.....in due course we will all know the truth of this dredful act

    The hare being coursed in the video collided with a piece of TEN INCH THICK FOAM FENCE..........yes it looked spectacular......but in fact the whole top fence by the escape is covered with a wall of thick foam sheeting ........to prevent injury to both hare and hound.

    You proudly boast that Coursing was banned in England........The facts are that Hare Coursing in England was subject to TWO independent inquries (Burns report) Both these inquries found in favour of Coursing and reported that Coursing Clubs work tirelessly to help with hare conservation.
    The simple facts is that now .....Coursing has been banned as a result of a law intended to stop Foxhunting. The Hare in England is now shot in the Hundreds ......and has lost its Gaudians.

    Coursing Clubs do not "farm Hares".........but they do protect the grounds they are on by practicing vermin control...........In other words they keep Fox and MINK ........(who kill thousands of young hares a year) to a minimum

    These MINK who are the main killers of Hares are not native animals......they were released by your friends the animal activists from mink farm..........So in effect the animals rights groups are the main enemy of the hare.............along with Poachers who go out to kill the hares with their dogs. Coursing Clubs also protect the hares from poachers.

    This year 98.7% of captured hares were released back into the wild...........whos to say...........had all those hares been left in the wild..........more hares would have perrished naturally


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭stevoman


    Discodog wrote: »
    The IGB would not risk €20,000 if they thought there was the slightest chance of paying out. It is clearly a publicity stunt which could backfire especially if the Students sue for defamation.


    How on earth do you know that? Really? Do you have any affiliations with the coursing club that you know inside information that they dont intend to pay out such a reward?

    Your just being silly IMO.

    Fair enough if your anti coursing, everyone is intitled to an opinion, but whats the point in posting on websites that organisations have no intent on paying out reward money when you have no proof of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,795 ✭✭✭✭Discodog


    Gortglas wrote: »
    Ok time for some facts on the matter gathered from researching this topic and mainly form the ICC Website.

    Facts that you have obtained from the ICC who organise Coursing. Are we supposed to assume that these facts are not rather biased ?. All this bluff, more bluff, legal threats, rewards, rumours & speculation. Nothing is proved. Do you & the ICC think that if you could prove that this video is faked that it would change people's opinion of coursing ?.

    Will the ICC tell us how many Greyhounds are killed every year ?. The ICC& the IGB are very selective with their facts. The undisputed fact is that the ICC & it's supporters believe that it is acceptable to capture a wild animal & then let hounds chase it purely for pleasure plus, let us not forget, betting money.

    You may consider these to be people of integrity whose word is gospel. I do not.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 HELEN OF TROY


    my friend said the problem is letting 8 dogs go from a cage at the same time chasing after a rabbit around in a circle and this is what injures them. can they not run in straight races of two or three dogs and less would get hurted? she also said there is a nice lady in dublin paid by the govenment to take in stray dogs and fix their injuries and make them better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 HELEN OF TROY


    a nice person has now told me what dog courses is in ireland and i think it is better for the dog than the one my friend from the usa says happens in her country. when the 2 dog chase hare why is dog muzles as in my country south africa no muzle on dog when he chases other animal. its cruel to muzle natural things. in usa my friend say they let 8 dogs go from a cage to chase a rabbit in a circular arena and all dogs biting and get injurd trying to kill rabbit. you have a very good natural sport dog courses and i would like to get some dvds to bring home to show my friends in durban so if anybody knows how i can buy these please let me know, thank you all, h o t.


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭scartman1


    Helen of Troy,
    If you visit the Irish Greyhound Board website, www.igb.ie you'll get some more background information on how greyhound racing is run and regulated in Ireland.
    In Ireland and England it is all six dog races, while in America and Australia the races are 8 dog races. But it is best to see for yourself and visit the website, or if you have the time wander down to your local greyhound track and see it at first hand. Its a great night out and the people involved with greyhounds are for the most part very decent and down to earth, normal people, like the bulk of society.
    As for the 'nice lady' who looks after the dogs I don't know who this maybe, as there is lots of nice ladies, and gentlemen too who care for the dogs all over the country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 HELEN OF TROY


    thank you scartman1 but i really do not like to watch the dog races of 6 but would like to watch the 2 dog courses after a natural hare as it reminds me of when home in south africa, is it posible to see some near dublin.


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭scartman1


    Helen of Troy,
    If you visit the www.Greyhounddata.com website they have videos of previous coursing meetings on this website.
    In years past greyhounds in Coursing meetings were not muzzled, but the Irish Coursing Club, given that catching the hare was not fundamental to the object of the sport, it was decided to muzzle the dogs. This has been the case for almost 20 years at this stage.
    Many at the time considered, like you have stated, that to muzzle the greyhounds was not natural but in the light of the fact that the dogs rarely got to catch the Hares in any case and the fact that the dogs didn't seem to even consider that they were wearing muzzles, (they were solely instinct driven to chase the moving hare,) on balance it was decided to muzzle the dogs. The muzzles are made of a light slightly flexible plastic and don't impede the greyhounds to any great extent.
    you'll get some more info if you visit the Irish Coursing club website www.icc.ie.


    The 8 dog races in the USA are also highly regulated. I may be wrong but I percieve that when you say that the dogs chase a rabbit around a circular track that you believe that it is a live rabbbit. This is not the case, it is dummy rabbit that runs on a rail system. Secondly, the greyhounds are not allowed to bite each other as you were told. In fact any dog that has a tendency to bite the other dogs during the race is disqualified and unless he proves that he has given up this trait he will not be allowed to race again.This generally leads to clean racing as dogs that run cleaner racers are the most successful when it comes to breeding the next generation of racing dogs. Dogs that bite are very few and far between in the sport nowadays.
    The occassional injuries that do occur from time to time are more likely to be muscle tears and bone injuries suffered while the dogs compete. They are similar to those suffered by human athletes competing in athletics.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭tomybhoy


    Helen,
    This is a video of what happens at a coursing meeting.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xp5i0y0_8Q&feature=player_embedded


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭scartman1


    Helen of Troy
    I gave you the wrong website address for the Irish Coursing Club on the previous post. Try www.irishcoursingclub.ie and they will have the fixtures and dates. The season is closed to allow the hares breed now but commences at the end of Septemeber and finishes at the end of February. Ballbriggan is the nearest coursing meeting to Dublin city, but there are over 80 across the entire country during the above season. Many are within an hours drive of Dublin.
    Bring a good pair of socks and a wooly hat, as it can be cold during that time of the year. Its a very enjoyable day, and a marvelous spectacle.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ Josie Tight Multimillionaire


    Helen,

    All I'll say is you should avoid this subject or take the time and effort to get a balanced view on this. The Greyhound associations will certainly give a clean view of the "sport" while the animal right groups will claim all kinds of "torture". Don't be swayed by extreme groups on either side and watch for individuals driving their own agendas.


  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭scartman1


    Discodog wrote: »
    Facts that you have obtained from the ICC who organise Coursing. Are we supposed to assume that these facts are not rather biased ?. All this bluff, more bluff, legal threats, rewards, rumours & speculation. Nothing is proved. Do you & the ICC think that if you could prove that this video is faked that it would change people's opinion of coursing ?.

    Will the ICC tell us how many Greyhounds are killed every year ?. The ICC& the IGB are very selective with their facts. The undisputed fact is that the ICC & it's supporters believe that it is acceptable to capture a wild animal & then let hounds chase it purely for pleasure plus, let us not forget, betting money.

    You may consider these to be people of integrity whose word is gospel. I do not.

    Discodog,
    You are obviously very au fait with the background to this video but surely you can see the string attached to the hares neck.

    The €20,000 reward was obviously an enticement by the ICC to get the anti's to break ranks and hopefully get a conviction from this scam. I believe that this would severely damage the animal rights movement as it would put a major question mark over their practices and untimate motives.
    Whether you fundamentally agree or disagree with coursing that is an entirely different matter but most people dislike being codded by misinformation and the abuse of animals to further a cause.

    I understand the guards are investigating to establish the merits to the allegations so i don't go with your view that the ICC are playing a game of Call My Bluff for publicity. let's see how it pans out.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭scartman1


    Helen,

    All I'll say is you should avoid this subject or take the time and effort to get a balanced view on this. The Greyhound associations will certainly give a clean view of the "sport" while the animal right groups will claim all kinds of "torture". Don't be swayed by extreme groups on either side and watch for individuals driving their own agendas.

    Helen
    I would concur entirely with this point of view, it is very sensible. While I myself would be an advocate of coursing and enjoy it, individuals have to get the full picture for themselves. I certainly won't be pushing my views onto someone else. Thanks for taking the interest.


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