restaurant owners seeking lower minimum wage

dermothickey

I dont know about all of you but after reading an article today on rte.ie/news I was a bit dissapointed in our restaurant owners here seeking to reduce the minimum wage. It would certainly make me think twice about eating out should it ever be reduced by this lobby group. Now don't get me wrong Im well aware of the burdens on restaurants, but lets face it this is a deep recession people cant afford to eat out and thats why they have seen a drop in business. Adding to that the fact that for years their prices were bloated. For me to think that someone who is preparing your food is getting less than the minimum wage would raise my eyebrows to the care given in the service.
Surely there are other ways to reduce costs considering food prices have dropped. In the old days having your own business was enough to feed your family, pay your bills and maybe put your kids in to college. But restaurant owners want profits of 10 grand a week or higher. Its no more a family business for MOST restauranteers but a income which exceeds their needs, but pays the Golfing holiday bills... Comments welcome

infamous

Restaurants prices were bloated as Irish restaurants have one of the highest cost basis in europe. Between wages, vat utilities and food costs it is no wonder that over 300 restaurants closed its doors in ireland last year. The minimum wage here is a joke it should be brought into line with the rest of europe. In the uk it is around 5stg even allowing for fx diff the rate here is still 50% higher. Also in the uk business's can hire part-timers under 18 cheaper again. Irish minimum wage needs to be reduced. If we pay our non-skilled workers such high rates this in turn leads to qualified professionals to seek higher wage rates its a viscious circle, and altho it will lead to tough times in the immediate for our lower payed the benefits will reaped by all going forward.

eejoynt

There is a phrase in the law
"he who comes to equity must come with clean hands"

given that 79% of the businesses inspected by NERA in this sector were not complying with the law, I don't see what their problem is!!!

http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/media/NERA%20Review%20of%202009.pdf

the_syco

infamous wrote: »

In the uk it is around 5stg even allowing for fx diff the rate here is still 50% higher.

Exchange rate now, yes. Back about 5 years, and £5 equaled to min pay here.

infamous wrote: »

Also in the uk business's can hire part-timers under 18 cheaper again.

Are we talking licensed premises, or not?

DangerMouse1978

What the government should do is subsidise workers pay in this important sector would work out cheaper than paying them dole, and look at tax relief options for these businesses who are working with borderline profitability.

Hagar

infamous wrote: »

Irish minimum wage needs to be reduced.

I'll hazard a guess that you are not trying to live on the minimum wage.

infamous

No 1st I aint on minimum wage but the madness has to stop somewhere, an unfortunatly the bottom of the pile is where it needs to start. My wage works out at about 26p.h which I feel is excessive, I feel all wages should be reduced proportionally however for this to happen the minimum wage has to go first. I have a degree and professional qualification, the general consensus of people in my profession like many other professions would be well if people can get 9 euro an hour for waiting tables or serving in a shop for the day theres no way they would work for any less than they currently earn. Eejoynt I feel your reference that 79% of companies inability to comply with the law is a further reinforcement that minimum wage needs to be reduced as I feel the main reason these companies are forced into these measures is that their survival depends on it.

Hagar

I'd suggest that greedy landlords have more to do with restaurant closures than the minimum wage.

dermothickey

infamous wrote: »

No 1st I aint on minimum wage but the madness has to stop somewhere, an unfortunatly the bottom of the pile is where it needs to start. My wage works out at about 26p.h which I feel is excessive, I feel all wages should be reduced proportionally however for this to happen the minimum wage has to go first. I have a degree and professional qualification, the general consensus of people in my profession like many other professions would be well if people can get 9 euro an hour for waiting tables or serving in a shop for the day theres no way they would work for any less than they currently earn. Eejoynt I feel your reference that 79% of companies inability to comply with the law is a further reinforcement that minimum wage needs to be reduced as I feel the main reason these companies are forced into these measures is that their survival depends on it.

Lets put it in to context..Waiting tables is a skill if done properly increases your customer base, It aint an easy job dealing with sometimes aggressive customers, keeping everyone happily fed...also working in a shop is a skill considering there is a chance the shop could be burgled any minute by a heroin addict with a needle or a criminal with a gun...lets face it the lower paid jobs are low simply because SOME people feel that their staff arent worth decent wages. Now the 300 euro a week or so earned by minimum wage staff should any more be taken out of their pocket it simply means less money being spent in the economy furthermore reducing the amount of customers using these restaurants. 1st has the right direction it is the rates that are the problem. I do understand though the double wage on a Sunday needs to be addressed if it is part-time weekend staff earning this, but for full time who do overtime on Sunday it is their right to be paid these wages. It has taken a long time for Ireland to develop as a nation and we are measured as a nation by how much we empower those weakest in society to better themselves...but 300 euro a week is pittance considering rent, and ALL the usual bills.

eejoynt

infamous you fail to tell us what your degree or professional qualification is in

it cannot be statistics or sociology other wise your methodology would be a bit better than
" me and my mates say so therefore it must be true"

it cannot be law otherwise you wouldn't be using breaches of the law as grounds for repeal
it would be media studies perchance?

infamous

Dermot, I aggree waiting on tables can be a skill but this would be more the exception than the norm, as for shop assistants they are my pet hate you do on occassion come accross some excellent staff however the normal level of service we receive is terrible. If I had a shop/restaurant I couldn justify paying these people €9p.h. Yes the rents are excessive but they have comedown in the past couple of years and wages need to do likewise. For restaurants your highest cost is your food costs which are roughly around 30% industry average, wage bills are a close second around 25%, throw in utilities/rent rates etc and your margins are very tight. Wages need to be the starting point in reducing costs. Also you speak of the 300p.w been tough to live in, this is in excess of the minimum in many other countries. 300 p.w is a more than an adequate ammount to live on, if the individual feels they should be paid more it is up to them to better themselfes by either training in a better paid field or applying themselfes in their current field to get what they deserve. The days of paying ignorant tutting shop assistants 9p.h should be over, and for this economy to recover need to be over.

infamous

eejoynt if you want to be so exact in analysing my point you may look at your own the following should read "infamous you fail to tell us what your degree or professional qualification are in" but that is just an easy way to have a snipe at a very valid point that I made. I am accountant if it makes any difference.

Jaysoose

DangerMouse1978 wrote: »

What the government should do is subsidise workers pay in this important sector would work out cheaper than paying them dole, and look at tax relief options for these businesses who are working with borderline profitability.

I coudnt disagree more the last thing we need is the goverment bailing out another group of irish "business people" that are incapable of running a business.

Hagar

infamous wrote: »

"infamous you fail to tell us what your degree or professional qualification are in"

Incorrect. Both choices on either side of "or" are singular so the outcome must be singular. The word "and" was not used, therefore the use of "is" is gramattically, if not factually in your case, correct.

infamous

regardless 1st, i made a valid point eejoynt would rather pick holes in the way I presented the point rather that aggreeing or disagreeing and giving his reasons for his viewpoint.

Hagar

The trouble with lower wages is proportion. Let's assume that a person on the current minimum wage can meet all his bills and live with income and outgoings balanced. A modest reduction in the MW, of say €1, will have a dramatic effect on his budget and may make him financially un-viable while the same €1 drop for you will just mean a lunch out per week less or a cheaper brand of golf ball.

jimoc

infamous wrote: »

My wage works out at about 26p.h which I feel is excessive,

And I'm assuming that you've gone to your employer and demanded that he lower your salary to the minimum wage?

infamous

Its all relative 1st, think of somene earning 60k 3 years ago, given a ridiculous mortgage by their bank, hit with pay cuts by company, hit harder than lower paid with new income levy and paying higher taxes. Everyone is suffering and everyone has to make cuts wether its me having to empty my stable and rent horses for my weekly game of polo or you having to dine from the euro saver menu rather than enjoying your big mac it needs to be done. There are plenty of middle income families on struggle street just cause they appear to have a nice house or live in a nice area they too are struggling to feed their kids and meet their bills. Before the onslaught I am ofcourse taking the piss with the polo I am far from living a well off lifestyle.

Hagar

No doubt the middle classes are suffering but most of them are only at risk of losing what someone on MW would regard as luxuries. In general they have a long way to fall before they hit MW standards.

dermothickey

Having a grudge against shopkeepers Infamous is your personal feelings however wanting to reduce their wages because you feel 300 euro per week is too much to pay them sounds just wrong really. If we were to lash out on those we have grudges against..ie the accountants who fiddle the books every year for the business owners, the lab assistants, the politicians, the teachers, the Garda siochalanai the bankers the crabby nurses the town planners and so on where would we be. Now I recognize many of these professions have been hit and in a big way, but to reduce the wage of the underpaid the toilet cleaners(whose job I'm sure you wouldnt have the skills for) would be plain wrong. Making the point that 300 euro a week is more than other european countries doesnt stack up when you add in the cost of living here. Considering we have the highest cost of car insurance in the world. Many people if forced to take cuts like this would resort to moneylenders and bad credit card debt or simply would end up in a flat with no phone no t.v no car, no internet connection thus having the knock on effect of creating more unemployment in the country. Phone, t.v, car, and internet connection are the luxuries those on minimum wage have, which is the backbone of this economy. Also many who lost their high paid jobs are now in lower paid work...they have big mortgages too, kids to feed etc. All im really saying here is taking money from the minimum wage workers is taking the cash flow out of the country. Giving a few extra notes to business men is basically increasing the money being spent outside the country on foreign holidays every year.

Shelflife

The problem with the min wage is that it doesnt distinguish between jobs in the service industry, in the case of restaurants you could have a very efficient waiter and a very basic pot scrubber, both do their jobs but one is obviously worth more to the business than the other.

the problem arises in that both start at €8.65, but the fact that the waiters job is harder then you feel that they should get more. its just that the base rate is so high that it makes it hard to reward the more efficient and harder working staff.

at €8.65ph based on a 39 hr week and allowing for 4 weeks holidays the cost to a business per year is well over €20k a year.

thats a lot of money for an unskilled worker.

Hagar

And €5.00 is a lot for a bottle of water...

dermothickey

Shelflife wrote: »

The problem with the min wage is that it doesnt distinguish between jobs in the service industry, in the case of restaurants you could have a very efficient waiter and a very basic pot scrubber, both do their jobs but one is obviously worth more to the business than the other.

the problem arises in that both start at €8.65, but the fact that the waiters job is harder then you feel that they should get more. its just that the base rate is so high that it makes it hard to reward the more efficient and harder working staff.

at €8.65ph based on a 39 hr week and allowing for 4 weeks holidays the cost to a business per year is well over €20k a year.

thats a lot of money for an unskilled worker.

You see what the core issue here really is the value you put on someones wages simply because you believe their job is not adequate enough to reach certain wages. Without a pot scrubber you've no pots to cook in. I'm sure the pot scrubber works his pants off sweating, while the waiter walks around using communication. 1 The pot scrubber uses his hands/labour 2 the waiter uses his mind to record etc.In this society we tend to class people in what we believe is their worth in intelligence...ie the waiter needs to use his intelligence while the pot scrubber uses his muscles...now who's to say the pot scrubber could/may be more intelligent than the waiter and just was'nt lucky the day he applied to work in the restaurant to become a waiter. 8.65 is a small amount of money for any businessperson to pay someone else to make him a profit. That's what business is about. you pay others to create wealth for you...why we have minimum wage is so business owners cant exploit this situation, knowing how desperate people are to put food on their tables.

DangerMouse1978

Jaysoose wrote: »

I coudnt disagree more the last thing we need is the goverment bailing out another group of irish "business people" that are incapable of running a business.

Well maybe subsidising would be a step too much but at least some tax breaks could only help the situation. Public liability insurance is also a real killer for small businesses.

infamous

Dermot-your point that the minimum pay here is higher here as the cost of living is higher here than other european countries doesnt stack up. The cost of living here is so high due to the fact that we pay unskilled workers such large wages. We should not crucify those in business trying to create jobs and boost the economy, everyone needs to take a hit regardless of their current income that includes those on minimum wage. The minimum wage should be reduced on a fased down basis not hit down straight away but over time reduced.

Hagar

infamous wrote: »

We should not crucify those in business trying to create jobs and boost the economy

That is a myth, nobody is trying to create jobs or boost the economy. The only reason anybody is in business is to make money for themselves at other people's expense. Any serendipitous benefit to anybody else is just that.

Blazer

If the minimum wage was any lower some people wouldn't bother their asses working and just go on welfare. God knows there's very little difference between them.
If they were to cut wages then they would have to cut welfare by the same %.
Or if they did cut minimum wage reduce taxes for them so the employee is not affected so much by the cut.
And of course...ANY business that fires their staff and tries to hire people at the lower bracket should get a massive fine.
I agree we all need to cut back to help out but some greedy people will try and take advantage of this to deepen their pockets.

dermothickey

infamous wrote: »

Dermot-your point that the minimum pay here is higher here as the cost of living is higher here than other european countries doesnt stack up. The cost of living here is so high due to the fact that we pay unskilled workers such large wages. We should not crucify those in business trying to create jobs and boost the economy, everyone needs to take a hit regardless of their current income that includes those on minimum wage. The minimum wage should be reduced on a fased down basis not hit down straight away but over time reduced.

As a small business owner I understand the value of paying my staff a proper decent wage as it created an environment of Happy workers who have built my business for me. Lets face it when we shifted to the euro Irish businesses rubbed their hands with glee and rounded up and in some incidences increased the cost of their goods for sale. On top of that everyone was working the money was there so landlords increased their rents and a cup of coffee became 2:50 3 euro instead of £1:50... In this environment as we all know whatever the asking price was we bought it as consumers we bought what we wanted not what we needed. Now lets look in to the multi-nationals who arrived not naming any of them but a sharp look at the furniture barons and electrical suppliers who came in with cheaper goods than local businesses were given them for...knocked the local business out of the loop then had the monopoly and increased their prices again. MMM LETS SAY the one we all know about who have a shop you look at a catalogue in...an lcd t.v in the north was 780 stg and in the south the same shop was charging 1500 in euro...fact is we were being robbed down here...we had no choice...we all know we pay more for goods and food in the south than the rest of europe. Hiding it behind an extra euro an hour in someones wages is crazy considering we are talking about 39 euro a week here. Our govt also has a part to play when it comes to import duty on new cars...why do we pay more in Ireland than the rest of the world for a car? Because we are being robbed. Now in fairness many companies lined their pockets during the tiger years...those days are gone people have woke up so businesses have to be competitive, all it really means is that profit has to dip..this cant be subsidised by knocking a euro off the minimum wage.. One pizza business i know recently cut wages by 30% simply because there is a recession even though his profit has fallen by 5%..considering the year before was his best year ever. Businesses are paring their losses on their best years and in so doing feel they are entitled to astronomical profits..Thats a fact...its that attitude which is hurting people... Now of course there are some small businesses where the business owner is ACTUALLY back working in his business...can you believe it a business man actually working??? I've nothing against business owners as I am one myself, but trust me I've no intention of hurting anybody who works for me, its hard enough out there to live than enforcing my will on others.

Hagar

Fair play to you Dermot. We need a few more decent guys like yourself out there.

dermothickey

it makes business sense really!!! what goes around comes around

tatli_lokma

Berkut wrote: »

If the minimum wage was any lower some people wouldn't bother their asses working and just go on welfare. God knows there's very little difference between them.

+1
If you are on dole and have a dependent wife/husband you get €326 per week, plus most likely will get assistance from HSE with mortgage or rent, medical card.
In that case why would a married person with a dependent go to work for €337 (39 hour week on min wage)??? out of their wage they then have to pay tax, travel costs to work, and possibly full mortgage (although some may get some benefits but not many).

I understand that in the past many waiting staff/shop assistants were usually students or younger people who worked p/t for a bit of spending money. €8.65 isn't bad when you are in that situation, possibly living at home, minimal responsibilities. But the current job situation has seen skilled workers who would have in the past been managers/senior roles happy to take any role as long as they are working and not unemployed. So it is no longer younsters with no responsibilities who are on min wage - it is men and women with families, mortgages and responsibilities.

If the min wage is lowered in one sector then everyone will go looking for it - slippery slope.

eejoynt

@dermothickey

a good point - minimum wages also protect decent employers.

devotional1993

infamous wrote: »

Restaurants prices were bloated as Irish restaurants have one of the highest cost basis in europe. Between wages, vat utilities and food costs it is no wonder that over 300 restaurants closed its doors in ireland last year. The minimum wage here is a joke it should be brought into line with the rest of europe. In the uk it is around 5stg even allowing for fx diff the rate here is still 50% higher. Also in the uk business's can hire part-timers under 18 cheaper again. Irish minimum wage needs to be reduced. If we pay our non-skilled workers such high rates this in turn leads to qualified professionals to seek higher wage rates its a viscious circle, and altho it will lead to tough times in the immediate for our lower payed the benefits will reaped by all going forward.

love to see you live on a lower min wage you scabby asshole

GoneShootin

devotional1993 wrote: »

love to see you live on a lower min wage you scabby asshole

Attack the post - not the poster. Banned for a week.

T-rev

infamous wrote: »

Dermot, I aggree waiting on tables can be a skill but this would be more the exception than the norm, as for shop assistants they are my pet hate you do on occassion come accross some excellent staff however the normal level of service we receive is terrible. If I had a shop/restaurant I couldn justify paying these people €9p.h. Yes the rents are excessive but they have comedown in the past couple of years and wages need to do likewise. For restaurants your highest cost is your food costs which are roughly around 30% industry average, wage bills are a close second around 25%, throw in utilities/rent rates etc and your margins are very tight. Wages need to be the starting point in reducing costs. Also you speak of the 300p.w been tough to live in, this is in excess of the minimum in many other countries. 300 p.w is a more than an adequate ammount to live on, if the individual feels they should be paid more it is up to them to better themselfes by either training in a better paid field or applying themselfes in their current field to get what they deserve. The days of paying ignorant tutting shop assistants 9p.h should be over, and for this economy to recover need to be over.

haha hilarious altogether. i think you need to come down a peg or two, not the minimum wage.

I feel all wages should be reduced proportionally however for this to happen the minimum wage has to go first. I have a degree and professional qualification, the general consensus of people in my profession like many other professions would be well if people can get 9 euro an hour for waiting tables or serving in a shop for the day theres no way they would work for any less than they currently earn.

So basically you are saying that we need to cut the wage of the lowest paid people in the country first, who are probably on the breadline in a lot of cases. Then go to the better paid who are on salaries probably double or triple of the minimum wage, who can probably afford things the people on minimum wage can only dream of.

Are you for real or what?

I would love to see those statistics of people in your profession. I think its just your general consensus tbf.

Sorry but such nonsensical crap to come out with. Seriously.....

the_syco

infamous wrote: »

T]My wage works out at about 26p.h which I feel is excessive, I feel all wages should be reduced proportionally however for this to happen the minimum wage has to go first.

Ah, another naive person. Holy f**king sh|t, which part of minimum wage do you not get? Minimum wage goes down, people stating a job will get paid less. Your pay won't. No-ones pay will go down. Only the new people starting will have less money. And here's the kicker: if wage was forced down, the only winner would be the employer who'd rake in more profits, because unless you work for SVP, your employer is out to make a profit.

Check the newspapers: what happens when a company makes €2million profit compared to €4 million profit last year? They sack people.

taram

infamous wrote: »

Also you speak of the 300p.w been tough to live in, this is in excess of the minimum in many other countries. 300 p.w is a more than an adequate ammount to live on, if the individual feels they should be paid more it is up to them to better themselfes by either training in a better paid field or applying themselfes in their current field to get what they deserve.

Last year I worked in Ireland on the minimum wage, slightly higher than it actually at 9.70 euro as I was experienced, and 24. This year I'm living in the UK, on mimimum wage at 5.80 sterling. My rent/bills/internet in the UK is 100 pounds/week, Ireland was 90 euro/week. Guess in which country I can afford to buy new clothes, go out drinking twice a week, going abroad on holidays in June...UK! Ireland in general is over priced for EVERYTHING, including staff, I agree. But the fact remains that in the morning if you reduced minimum wage, people would either not bother their arses going to effort of working a whole week for not much more than the dole, or people would work to get experience and be probably miserable.

Oh, and I'm doing a masters, working 20 hours, as well as shadowing people in my field once a week, not everyone on minimum wage is a lazy person who can't "apply themselves", people need to pay their way through college, or take a minimum wage job between "real" jobs to feed their family!

dermothickey

Your rent bills and internet was 90 euro a week.... That's amazing whereabouts in Ireland was that?

taram

dermothickey wrote: »

Your rent bills and internet was 90 euro a week.... That's amazing whereabouts in Ireland was that?

East Cork, shared with 3 others. Bog standard price I was quoted for other houses in that area, wouldn't have thought it cheap really. Even friends who lived in Cork city would have been paying that minus say, their oil bill, though they'd be maybe 6 in a house.

Hagar

While we are discussing how much the staff "cost" the restaurant can we discuss how much of the "service charge" is actually passed on to the staff? Or is that too close to the bone?

the_syco

Hagar wrote: »

While we are discussing how much the staff "cost" the restaurant can we discuss how much of the "service charge" is actually passed on to the staff? Or is that too close to the bone?

Depends. In a restaurant over 10 years ago where I got £2 an hour (Irish punt, with no minimum wage), what the waitresses got in tips would usually be divided up between them, and some going to the people who worked in the kitchen.

It varies a lot place to place, though.