Is there an argument to increase tax on fuels

Slideshowbob

Can it be argued that petrol and diesel is too cheap?

People drive everywhere in ireland at will
Add a euro to a litre of fuel?
People will start thinking about the energy they consume and appreciate it
It will also increase revenue for government

So some will argue it will kill trade and manufacturing!?

But it will prepare us for alternative energy use which will be required as worlwide oil stock diminishes!??

wicorthered

Why not add 2 euro to a pint of milk and loaf of bread too :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Slideshowbob

wicorthered wrote: »

Why not add 2 euro to a pint of milk and loaf of bread too :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Any reasoning behind this?

Thomas_S_Hunterson

You'd have to consider the consequences.

Now that ciggies are pretty outrageously priced, it has created an absolutely massive black market.

The same would happen with petrol and when people buy untaxed fuel, the state doesn't get any money.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Any reasoning behind this?

Cows are huge contributors to greenhouse gas emissions. Seriously.

Similar justification to your one for petrol.

Slideshowbob

Sean_K wrote: »

Cows are huge contributors to greenhouse gas emissions. Seriously.

Same justification.

Well are we running out of cows and grass?

I've heard of peak oil but not peak cows or grass!?

wicorthered

Petrol and diesel are now as important in day to day life as bread and milk for the majority of car users the car is a necessity not a leisure. Fuels are already crazy expensive and prices are going to rise enough due to the markets without the government taking their pound of flesh

Slideshowbob

wicorthered wrote: »

Petrol and diesel are now as important in day to day life as bread and milk for the majority of car users the car is a necessity not a leisure. Fuels are already crazy expensive and prices are going to rise enough due to the markets without the government taking their pound of flesh

There are alternatives to people having to take their cars.

Bread and milk comprise some of the most common and economic forms of nutrition.

Your argument ain't convincing.

PS Fundamentally man can live without petrol and diesel - however he needs food!

ei.sdraob

Slideshowbob wrote: »

PS Fundamentally man can live without petrol and diesel - however he needs food!

Why dont you try to grow some food to feed yourself without petrol/diesel

you be suprised how much oil goes into modern farming, no oil > no modern agriculture > no modern agriculture > starvation

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Well are we running out of cows and grass?

Cows release methane when they fart, methane is 40 times (40x) as bad for the environment as carbon, lets tax methane and cows

Slideshowbob wrote: »

I've heard of peak oil but not peak cows or grass!?

So because you think we are it peak oil, it should be taxed more? if oil is really in short supply then dont worry the market will take care of the prices, and will come up with an alternative(s)

Slideshowbob

Petrol is fundamentally too cheap - u get 31,000 calories in a litre of petrol

But only approx 4,500 calories in a kilo of sugar

Both are about the same price

A few years back some Nigerians died trying to rob a few buckets of oil from a pipeline when it exploded. They were prepared to risk life for a few litres. That shows how we in the 1st world undervalue oil.

IrishTonyO

Slideshowbob wrote: »

There are alternatives to people having to take their cars.

Not in all areas and even where there are alternatives they are sometimes in no way comparable. For example where I live it takes almost 2 hours on a bus to get to town and takes me 20 minutes to drive. So that is a choice between a 4 hour round trip or A 40 minute round trip.

Also to note is that petrol and diesel are already very expensive, over 60% is vat and tax, so at the moment a litre for €1.30 means the government get just over 78 cents per litre.

Also if people use less fuel the government will have to get that loss of revenue from somewhere else and we are talking billions here by the way

Slideshowbob

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Why dont you try to grow some food to feed yourself without petrol/diesel

you be suprised how much oil goes into modern farming, no oil > no modern agriculture > no modern agriculture > starvation




Cows release methane when they fart, methane is 40 times (40x) as bad for the environment as carbon, lets tax methane and cows




So because you think we are it peak oil, it should be taxed more? if oil is really in short supply then dont worry the market will take care of the prices, and will come up with an alternative(s)

As a race us humans did relatively ok food wise before the industrial revolution.

Are you suggesting we stop consuming meat?

"Let the market take care of itself"??? that's what was said about the economy a few years back by the free-marketeers!?!!

Slideshowbob

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Not in all areas and even where there are alternatives they are sometimes in no way comparable. For example where I live it takes almost 2 hours on a bus to get to town and takes me 20 minutes to drive. So that is a choice between a 4 hour round trip or A 40 minute round trip.

Also to note is that petrol and diesel are already very expensive, over 60% is vat and tax, so at the moment a litre for €1.30 means the government get just over 78 cents per litre.

Also if people use less fuel the government will have to get that loss of revenue from somewhere else and we are talking billions here by the way

Subsequent demand could increase public transport services.

Ya - on your last point it's supply and demand - why not put it to the test and see at what point people will sacrfice their cars!?

IrishTonyO

Slideshowbob wrote: »

As a race us humans did relatively ok food wise before the industrial revolution.
!

Population of the world in 1850 was approx 1.5 billion, it is now 6.8 billion. There is a big difference in the amount of food required.

Slideshowbob

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Population of the world in 1850 was approx 1.5 billion, it is now 6.8 billion. There is a big difference in the amount of food required.

Exactly! How buggered will we be in 50 years when we run out of oil!!

Will nuclear or alternative energies be advanced enough to support what will probably be a larger population at the same standard that we enjoyed our oil fueled lives at the moment!?

deadhead13

A carbon tax of 15 euro per tonne of petrol and diesel was brought in in the last budget. From May of this year it will apply to heating oil and natural gas.

Mister men

I think adding a euro on to the price of a litre is an excellent idea as long road tax is scrapped.

Hagar

Great idea, because almost doubling fuel costs will make Irish industry so much more competitive.
We will have foreign manufacturers queueing up to locate in Ireland.

Opium led greed

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Petrol is fundamentally too cheap - u get 31,000 calories in a litre of petrol

I know it's my one weakness.. just goes straight to the thighs!

Opium led greed

By the way the 31000 calories is in a gallon of petrol not litre.

Noffles

That'll be great for commuters wont it... the piss poor infrastructure really does make us want to use a bus service that takes over 2 hours to get from Gorey to Dublin in the morning where I can use a car and get there in one hour?

f*ck putting tax on fuel of a euro.... bastard place is bad enough as it is!!

Victor

Slideshowbob wrote: »

So some will argue it will kill trade and manufacturing!?

Manufacturing pays a much lower rate of fuel duty.

ei.sdraob

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Petrol is fundamentally too cheap - u get 31,000 calories in a litre of petrol

But only approx 4,500 calories in a kilo of sugar

Both are about the same price

A few years back some Nigerians died trying to rob a few buckets of oil from a pipeline when it exploded. They were prepared to risk life for a few litres. That shows how we in the 1st world undervalue oil.

sigh what a pile of nonsense

the price of something is determined by supply and demand
not how much energy it contains


there as 1 litre bottle of water to my side, by your line of thinking this water should be worth €1.59 trillion (see calculation below)

because the energy contained within the atoms (hydrogen, oxygen) in the water can be released (and is released in that round object shinning in the sky today ) in a fusion reaction to produce a **** load of energy



calculation:
E = mc^2
m = 1 [1 liter =1 kg]
c^2 = speed of light squared
therefore => 1 ( 9 * 10^16 )
we have => 9*10^16 Joules of energy in a liter of water

thats 2.15105163 × 10^16 calories

so by your line of thinking (adding 1 euro to existing 1.3 euro a liter)

1 liter of water should be worth =>
((2.15105163 × 10^16) / 31000) * 2.3 = 1.59594153 × 10^12 euro

thats €1,590,000,000,000

or 21 NAMAs for 1 liter of water :P

_Kaiser_

As has already been pointed out, this idea is fundamentally flawed by virtue of the fact that outside Dublin, there often IS no (realistic) alternative to the car as a result of poor planning over the years, woeful underinvestment in infrastructure and now, cutbacks in an already insufficent public transport system.

Even in Dublin the public transport options are unreliable and slow and have an unnatural bias towards "An Lar" - not every commuter wants or needs to travel via O'Connell Street.

I'll use the same example I've often used here... say I want to go from Blanchardstown to Coolock.

By Bus I can:

(a) Take the 220 to Finglas, the 17A to Northside SC and the 27 the rest of the way - total travel time (including waiting around on connections and assuming they show up which is often not the case), roughly 90 minutes.

(b) Take the 39 to "an Lar" and the 27 back out - total time, roughly 90-120 minutes (but less standing around and USUALLY more reliable)

Then let's look at the car... door-to-door and at peak times, it's never taken me anymore than 35-40 minutes via the M50 (usually a lot less than this).

Now I know you can argue that public transport can't suit everyone and that's true, but there are a lot of people making journeys like this every day, and for them buses, or DARTs, or LUASs (not forgetting that these mostly serve areas where car ownership is higher and there's a more reliable bus service - places like Coolock will never see a DART or LUAS, which is ironic as the potential userbase is a lot larger) are simply not practical.

Unfortunately as a result of all of these factors, we are a car-dependent nation and that's extremely unlikely to change in the medium-long term (forward planning is not something we Irish do well!)

The most realistic option is to invest in alternative energy sources to fuel our cars - yesterday's electric car announcement was more of a PR stunt in my opinion, but in the long term it is the only real way forward.

Zamboni

Oil is not the problem for the population of the world.
Population is the problem with the world. 6.5 billion people living on a planet that research indicates should sustain a population of 1.5 - 2 billion.
There should levies on flippin reproduction not everything else.

The_Honeybadger

To the OP question I would answer no. My commute is roughly 500km per week. I have no choice but to do this as there is absolutely no public transport where I live, and there is very little hope of it ever being there, and now you want to levy me for the priviledge of having to drive to work?? We already pay car tax, VRT and substantial taxes on fuel as well as the new carbon tax, coming back for more again would be grossly unfair on motorists IMO. I would however be in favour of heavily taxing SUV drivers and the like, most normal people do not need a car over 1400-1600cc, anything above this is very much a lifestyle choice and should come with a pricetag if we are talking about the environment etc.

Hagar

mickeyk wrote: »

My commute is roughly 500k per week.

Where do you work, the Moon?

The_Honeybadger

1st wrote: »

Where do you work, the Moon?

LOL 500km sorry

Max Power1

1st wrote: »

Where do you work, the Moon?

?

500 k per week = 50k each way 5 days. Not an unreasonable commute, say kildare to dublin for example!

the_syco

Slideshowbob wrote: »

There are alternatives to people having to take their cars.

I smell a city boy. So everyone should invest in a horse?

The_Honeybadger

Max Power1 wrote: »

?

500 k per week = 50k each way 5 days. Not an unreasonable commute, say kildare to dublin for example!

Its not unreasonable but it's still 40-50 euro pw fuel, and the OP wanted to put an extra euro per litre onto petrol, my fuel bill would then hit 65-70 euro. The effect of this would be similar to a pension levy for everybody that has a commute. And this is without even mentioning what it would do to inflation and the CPI.

Max Power1

mickeyk wrote: »

Its not unreasonable but it's still 40-50 euro pw fuel, and the OP wanted to put an extra euro per litre onto petrol, my fuel bill would then hit 65-70 euro. The effect of this would be similar to a pension levy for everybody that has a commute. And this is without even mentioning what it would do to inflation and the CPI.

no, thats what i mean. The previous post asked were you commuting to the moon!

On Topic: Im totally against this, we pay enough duty on fuel, and road tax per annum as it is.

Hagar

500k = 500,000 as opposed to 500km which is a perfectly reasonable distance.
An amusing typo, that is all.

The_Honeybadger

Max Power1 wrote: »

no, thats what i mean. The previous post asked were you commuting to the moon!

On Topic: Im totally against this, we pay enough duty on fuel, and road tax per annum as it is.

Thanks I left the m out of km so he jokingly took this as 500,000km LOL. And yes we pay plenty already couln't agree more

problemchimp

what about people who depend on driving for a living? Private busses, truck drivers, taxis, motorbike couriers etc.... Should they be penalised? I don't think so. Taxing people to the hilt is not the way to sort out our poor transport infrastructure, the extra tax intake would be blown on something else.

zootroid

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Can it be argued that petrol and diesel is too cheap?

As 60% of the price paid at the pumps goes to the exchequer, I would argue that it is nowhere near market price and indeed too expensive. Hence why laundering diesel is such an attractive proposition to those who engage in it.

People drive everywhere in ireland at will

True, and one of the reasons is the lack of a decent public transport system, even in Dublin.

Add a euro to a litre of fuel?
People will start thinking about the energy they consume and appreciate it
It will also increase revenue for government

Call me cynical, but people won't appreciate it. Instead they will moan about how much of their disposable income is now spent on fuel, and start thinking about ways to get cheaper fuel, ie turn to black market activities.
The only way adding a euro to a litre of fuel could work is to also provide a better alternative, basically providing an incentive for people to use public transport. This would mean providing a public transport system that is cheap, reliable, gets you to your destination, and also fast. Even in Dublin alone, the public transport system addresses none of these criteria. Extend that then to the other cities and towns in the country and it just gets worse.

So some will argue it will kill trade and manufacturing!?

It won't kill trade, but will have an adverse affect. Consumers have a lower disposable income as more of their cash is going to the government, and manufacturing companies also have additional costs at a time when they are doing everything possible to lower costs simply to remain in business.

But it will prepare us for alternative energy use which will be required as worlwide oil stock diminishes!??

As ei.sdraob pointed out, the market is already helping to take care of that as given a consistent level of demand, supplies will gradually diminish, thereby increasing the price. This will create an incentive for the discovery of alternative energy sources that are cheaper (and an awful lot needs to happen before we are driving electric cars).

Liam Byrne

Slideshowbob wrote: »

There are alternatives to people having to take their cars.

Depends on where you live. I've pointed out in another thread that a bus was promised to this area about 15 years ago and never materialised.

Add in ridiculous planning - even in cities - where it's a two mile walk to the nearest shop or bus stop through a sprawling housing estate and you haven't a leg to stand on with that argument.

the_syco wrote: »

I smell a city boy. So everyone should invest in a horse?

Not just a city boy......a Dublin city boy ?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

RichardAnd

It is a fact that as petrol prices rise, consumption of the fuel falls as people will either cut down on car usage or simply stop using it altogether.

At my local gas station, it's 1.32 a liter for petrol. Slap an extra euro onto that and that would make a full tank for me cost well over 100 euros. No politician will do this as he will loose the next election. In short, it won't happen.

Also, I have never bought the "climate change" story being fed to us. Global climate change happens every few hundred years and did so long before humans were here. I'm all for renewable energy but the government green policy is, in my opinion, just another way to earn more tax revenue.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Slideshowbob

Opium led greed wrote: »

By the way the 31000 calories is in a gallon of petrol not litre.

Apologies - so about 8,000 calories + in a litre of petrol

OMD

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But it wouldn't. The government would simply add the extra 14c. There is a total tax on petrol it matters very little to government how this tax is collected although it does matter for businesses

Hagar

OMD wrote: »

But it wouldn't. The government would simply add the extra 14c.

QFT, see VRT rates for further proof of this methodology.

donkey balls

guys about 80% of our exports/imports go by road all goods delivered to the supermarket chains are delivered by road.
by putting up the prices these chains would pass on the difference(fuel surcharge etc) to the customer.

Chris_5339762

The problem is that with this "add a euro" idea that Ireland just doesnt have the public transport infrastructure to support it. You can add a euro but there will be NO CHANGE in transport becuase there simply isnt a reasonable option.

yop

Slideshowbob wrote: »

There are alternatives to people having to take their cars.

Bread and milk comprise some of the most common and economic forms of nutrition.

Your argument ain't convincing.

PS Fundamentally man can live without petrol and diesel - however he needs food!

Ok answer this for us. I live 7 miles from my work place, I don't have a train/luas/bus service/bike lane etc. How do I get to my work?

We all dont live in cities with an alternative mode of transport, if we did I would gladly give up my car.

Its a necessity not a leisure.

donkey balls

yop wrote: »

Ok answer this for us. I live 7 miles from my work place, I don't have a train/luas/bus service/bike lane etc. How do I get to my work?

We all dont live in cities with an alternative mode of transport, if we did I would gladly give up my car.

Its a necessity not a leisure.

my friends live in leitrim and without their car they would be hermits they pay taxes like everyone else but yet have no/little form of public transport.
i live in Dublin and need my car for transport as we dont have a 24hr bus svcs some places of work are off the beaten track even in Dublin,
i used public transport for a while 4hr return journey within Dublin on bus i could do it in the car in about an hour.

cson

Just out of interest, can the OP explain and provide some robust statistics concerning 'Peak Oil'?

Because I've been hearing we're at this tipping point for the past 6 or so years yet it never quite happens. A little healthy skepticism may explain my pov.

Slideshowbob

cson wrote: »

Just out of interest, can the OP explain and provide some robust statistics concerning 'Peak Oil'?

Because I've been hearing we're at this tipping point for the past 6 or so years yet it never quite happens. A little healthy skepticism may explain my pov.

Wikipedia quote:

Optimistic estimations of peak production forecast the global decline will begin by 2020 or later, and assume major investments in alternatives will occur before a crisis, without requiring major changes in the lifestyle of heavily oil-consuming nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

cson

Slideshowbob wrote: »

Wikipedia quote:

Optimistic estimations of peak production forecast the global decline will begin by 2020 or later, and assume major investments in alternatives will occur before a crisis, without requiring major changes in the lifestyle of heavily oil-consuming nations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_oil

I wouldn't advise using that as a reference for a thesis but I suppose in the interests of a discussion board it is allowable.

Regarding the emboldened piece; if that is what you offer as being in line with your opinion of Peak Oil then why the need to add an encumbering tax to it?

I'd suggest good old wikipedia for a look at Diminishing Returns. Have a good read on that and get back to us about whether you think a €1 fuel surcharge effectively, is a good idea.

Slideshowbob

cson wrote: »

I wouldn't advise using that as a reference for a thesis but I suppose in the interests of a discussion board it is allowable.

Regarding the emboldened piece; if that is what you offer as being in line with your opinion of Peak Oil then why the need to add an encumbering tax to it?

I'd suggest good old wikipedia for a look at Diminishing Returns. Have a good read on that and get back to us about whether you think a €1 fuel surcharge effectively, is a good idea.

Thanks for the condescending advice - but this is a only harmless 'discussion' forum innit?!

Who said I was doing a thesis - sure I already have a Masters in the bag

Not sure if diminishing returns would strictly apply to taxation! Any experts in the house?