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Ireland's Competitiveness - not improving..

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 932 ✭✭✭paddyland


    So much for Bertie shooting us into the stratosphere, instead of keeping growth on some kind of par with everyone else.

    We were like a little leprechaun, who got a Ferrari, filled the tank with nitro-glycerine, took off, and went headlong into a concrete wall.

    Instead of respecting the car, and driving it properly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.
    rollon the knowledge economy

    are the Polish somehow subhuman? why are you looking down on them for being hardworking?? is that what this country has come to???

    anyways its not about what you desire, but about what the market is willing to pay you, you have very little say in that


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    rollon the knowledge economy :D

    are the Polish somehow subhuman? why are you looking down on them for being hardworking?? is that what this country has come to???

    anyways its not about what you desire, but about what the market is willing to pay you, you have very little say in that

    I said I don't wish to compete with Polish workers. I will gladfully co-operate with them though in our mutual interests. And we should be looking to break the link with the market, not mindlessly obey it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I said I don't wish to compete with Polish workers..

    At some point in the Celtic Bubble mentality it became no longer about what you can earn by working hard, its all about what you desire and are "entitled" to, with cheap credit (pervesly coming from poorer hard working people in other countries) thrown on top

    you sir are a prime example of what went wrong with the attitude in this country

    DidierMc wrote: »
    I will gladfully co-operate with them though in our mutual interests.

    You already are, its called the EU

    DidierMc wrote: »
    And we should be looking to break the link with the market, not mindlessly obey it.

    Yes because the market can be manipulated and ignored :rolleyes:

    how is that working out for you and rest of the FF voting sheeple who ignored the market forces and thought house prices and wages can only ever go up, with no real wealth being produced but actually quickly being destroyed?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,044 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.
    Then you better move to a country with a real knowledge economy because Ireland doesn't have one of any size. Ireland IS in competition with Poland for jobs, FACT!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 785 ✭✭✭zootroid


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.

    I'd love a well paid, cushy job too. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    At some point in the Celtic Bubble mentality it became no longer about what you can earn by working hard, its all about what you desire and are "entitled" to, with cheap credit (pervesly coming from poorer hard working people in other countries) thrown on top

    you sir are a prime example of what went wrong with the attitude in this country




    You already are, its called the EU




    Yes because the market can be manipulated and ignored :rolleyes:

    how is that working out for you and rest of the FF voting sheeple who ignored the market forces and thought house prices and wages can only ever go up, with no real wealth being produced but actually quickly being destroyed?

    The EU is a capitalist free trade bloc so that corporations can expand their influence. It's nothing to do with workers co-operating.

    And the market only has as much control as you let it have. It is not some holy force that must be observed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    zootroid wrote: »
    I'd love a well paid, cushy job too. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that.

    So your idea of real world is about giving €22billion to Anglo-Irish bank then? No thanks!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    The EU is a capitalist free trade bloc so that corporations can expand their influence. It's nothing to do with workers co-operating.

    is that your answer to this thread of yours?


    then see this

    DidierMc wrote: »
    And the market only has as much control as you let it have. It is not some holy force that must be observed.

    Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side, as you do :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,582 ✭✭✭WalterMitty


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.
    Hear about the caveman who didnt want to compete with his neighbouring cavmen? he died of starvation, te other cavemen didnt want to subsidise him.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,044 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    DidierMc wrote: »
    And the market only has as much control as you let it have. It is not some holy force that must be observed.
    "The market" is just another word for other people. Of course they have control on what they are prepared to pay for your labour, product, etc. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    murphaph wrote: »
    "The market" is just another word for other people. Of course they have control on what they are prepared to pay for your labour, product, etc. :rolleyes:

    The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.

    usually the ones who think they can stand against it or ignore it...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    DidierMc wrote: »
    The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.

    No the market equalises both way, up and down.. If skills are in demand you should see an increase in the cost, if skills are in low demand you will see a drop..

    The problem with the Irish attitude, is lots of people want to be paid high prices for average productivitity. That does not, nor will ever make sense in a global economy if you want to remain competitive.

    If people want to continue to be paid a higher wage than our competitors they they need to add an equivalent amount of value,.


  • Posts: 5,079 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    of course we arent competitive, Lenihan has stated he wants to put a floor under the property market & prevent firesales.

    In the US they dont do this and you can buy decent houses in decent locations for under 30,000 dollars. How can we compete with workers who can have such tiny mortgages?

    http://www.illinoisproperty.com/shortsale.aspx
    http://www.illinoisproperty.com/remaxil/default.asp?p=findahome.asp&page=search&selected=foreclosure

    Letting the bubble burst and the recession correct things back in 2008 would mean we would be on the road to recovery now. Instead we have less economic growth and higher unemployment than Iceland :mad:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    seems that despite all the "pain" were still are an uncompetitive lot who are in denial

    In a recession not all prices come down and unit labour costs can go up as junior or operative staff are let go first. The other problem that business faces is that a lower quantity of output has to cover fixed costs either in the short or medium term so it is difficult to create a "virtuous circle"

    I'm afraid we will not see any competitiveness improvements until the zombie banks, hotels and other businesses are closed down. Then we will need to privatise all the state pigs and reduce welfare costs to bring the cost of business down to more reasonable levels.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    Welease wrote: »
    No the market equalises both way, up and down.. If skills are in demand you should see an increase in the cost, if skills are in low demand you will see a drop..

    The problem with the Irish attitude, is lots of people want to be paid high prices for average productivitity. That does not, nor will ever make sense in a global economy if you want to remain competitive.

    If people want to continue to be paid a higher wage than our competitors they they need to add an equivalent amount of value,.

    Fully exposed to the market, Irish wages will drop massively. While naturally profits will go through the roof. Only the rich benifit from the "free" market.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Fully exposed to the market, Irish wages will drop massively. While naturally profits will go through the roof. Only the rich benifit from the "free" market.

    Funny that, Ireland being the 3rd most open economy (down from 1st)...


    tho i suppose in your world view we can become more like North Korea :cool: they are not exposed to the world and the government controls everything


    I pick the "free market disaster" over the "communist protectionist utopia" of yours anyday


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Funny that, Ireland being the 3rd most open economy (down from 1st)...


    tho i suppose in your world view we can become more like North Korea :cool: they are not exposed to the world and the government controls everything


    I pick the "free market disaster" over the "communist protectionist utopia" of yours anyday

    I'm all in favour of trade. I just want fair trade not "free" trade. I want trade that benifits the millions and not just the millionaires.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    I'm all in favour of trade. I just want fair trade not "free" trade. I want trade that benifits the millions and not just the millionaires.

    lol empty rhetoric i love it

    if you want "fair" trade then remove all sorts of trade barriers surrounding the EU and rest of first world

    you would quickly learn what competition and "fair" trade means when you "really" have to compete against the rest of the world

    by the standards of the majority of the world population we here in Ireland are "millionaires", i wonder how Irish Farmers would feel about them being displaced from South American produce or Irish "low paid" workers would feel about Ghanan McDonnalds workers

    careful what you wish for...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    lol empty rhetoric i love it

    if you want "fair" trade then remove all sorts of trade barriers surrounding the EU and rest of first world

    you would quickly learn what competition and "fair" trade means when you "really" have to compete against the rest of the world

    by the standards of the majority of the world population we here in Ireland are "millionaires", i wonder how Irish Farmers would feel about them being displaced from South American produce or Irish "low paid" workers would feel about Ghanan McDonnalds workers

    careful what you wish for...

    Nothing wrong with certain forms of protectionism. The poor of the world benifit from protectionism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Nothing wrong with certain forms of protectionism.

    you cant have "fair" trade coupled with protectionism, both are mutualy exclusive

    DidierMc wrote: »
    The poor of the world benifit from protectionism.
    thats a bad joke you know :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 219 ✭✭DidierMc


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    you cant have "fair" trade coupled with protectionism, both are mutualy exclusive



    thats a bad joke you know :(

    Try reading a book sometime


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Try reading a book sometime

    Try travelling sometime, especially somewhere "poorer" where they could "benefit from protectionism"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭Welease


    DidierMc wrote: »
    Fully exposed to the market, Irish wages will drop massively. While naturally profits will go through the roof. Only the rich benifit from the "free" market.

    It seems that you can't see beyond the race to the bottom that unions waffle on about.. I was advocating a race to the top, which as per my post, has no wage cuts... but it does need an understanding that you are unlikely to change the nature of global supply and demand, and therefore need to work your best advantage within that model.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    yep article and graphs here

    http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/04/economcis-10042010-irelands.html




    seems that despite all the "pain" were still are an uncompetitive lot who are in denial

    Cost alone is too narrow a focus, productivity needs to be factored in too otherwise the argument is misleading, that is not to say cost is not important, of course it is but its not the only thing we should be examining when looking at competitiveness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    The graph attached shows the top 10 internationally for GDP per hour worked relative to the US (US is the base i.e. equal to 100). So we are still 5th in the world for productivity, as of 2008 anyway. Source OECD http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    The graph attached shows the top 10 internationally for GDP per hour worked relative to the US (US is the base i.e. equal to 100). So we are still 5th in the world for productivity, as of 2008 anyway. Source OECD http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL


    I wouldnt take the numbers at face value. There are too many zombie businesses here relative to other coutries. Plus its easy to generate "fake" or unsustainable GDP if the state is borrowing excessively relative to everyone else

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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