Ireland's Competitiveness - not improving..

ei.sdraob

yep article and graphs here

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/04/economcis-10042010-irelands.html

This is really self-explanatory. Ireland Inc is absolutely out of touch, in economic terms, with its previous, competitive self

seems that despite all the "pain" were still are an uncompetitive lot who are in denial

paddyland

So much for Bertie shooting us into the stratosphere, instead of keeping growth on some kind of par with everyone else.

We were like a little leprechaun, who got a Ferrari, filled the tank with nitro-glycerine, took off, and went headlong into a concrete wall.

Instead of respecting the car, and driving it properly.

DidierMc

I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.

rollon the knowledge economy

are the Polish somehow subhuman? why are you looking down on them for being hardworking?? is that what this country has come to???

anyways its not about what you desire, but about what the market is willing to pay you, you have very little say in that

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

rollon the knowledge economy

are the Polish somehow subhuman? why are you looking down on them for being hardworking?? is that what this country has come to???

anyways its not about what you desire, but about what the market is willing to pay you, you have very little say in that

I said I don't wish to compete with Polish workers. I will gladfully co-operate with them though in our mutual interests. And we should be looking to break the link with the market, not mindlessly obey it.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

I said I don't wish to compete with Polish workers..

At some point in the Celtic Bubble mentality it became no longer about what you can earn by working hard, its all about what you desire and are "entitled" to, with cheap credit (pervesly coming from poorer hard working people in other countries) thrown on top

you sir are a prime example of what went wrong with the attitude in this country

DidierMc wrote: »

I will gladfully co-operate with them though in our mutual interests.

You already are, its called the EU

DidierMc wrote: »

And we should be looking to break the link with the market, not mindlessly obey it.

Yes because the market can be manipulated and ignored :rolleyes:

how is that working out for you and rest of the FF voting sheeple who ignored the market forces and thought house prices and wages can only ever go up, with no real wealth being produced but actually quickly being destroyed?

murphaph

DidierMc wrote: »

I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.

Then you better move to a country with a real knowledge economy because Ireland doesn't have one of any size. Ireland IS in competition with Poland for jobs, FACT!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

zootroid

DidierMc wrote: »

I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.

I'd love a well paid, cushy job too. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that.

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

At some point in the Celtic Bubble mentality it became no longer about what you can earn by working hard, its all about what you desire and are "entitled" to, with cheap credit (pervesly coming from poorer hard working people in other countries) thrown on top

you sir are a prime example of what went wrong with the attitude in this country




You already are, its called the EU




Yes because the market can be manipulated and ignored :rolleyes:

how is that working out for you and rest of the FF voting sheeple who ignored the market forces and thought house prices and wages can only ever go up, with no real wealth being produced but actually quickly being destroyed?

The EU is a capitalist free trade bloc so that corporations can expand their influence. It's nothing to do with workers co-operating.

And the market only has as much control as you let it have. It is not some holy force that must be observed.

DidierMc

zootroid wrote: »

I'd love a well paid, cushy job too. Unfortunately the real world doesn't work like that.

So your idea of real world is about giving €22billion to Anglo-Irish bank then? No thanks!

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

The EU is a capitalist free trade bloc so that corporations can expand their influence. It's nothing to do with workers co-operating.

is that your answer to this thread of yours?

then see this

DidierMc wrote: »

And the market only has as much control as you let it have. It is not some holy force that must be observed.

Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side, as you do

WalterMitty

DidierMc wrote: »

I have no desire to compete with Polish workers to see who can work the longest for the least amount of pay. The only people who benifit from playing that game are the rich.

Hear about the caveman who didnt want to compete with his neighbouring cavmen? he died of starvation, te other cavemen didnt want to subsidise him.

murphaph

DidierMc wrote: »

And the market only has as much control as you let it have. It is not some holy force that must be observed.

"The market" is just another word for other people. Of course they have control on what they are prepared to pay for your labour, product, etc. :rolleyes:

DidierMc

murphaph wrote: »

"The market" is just another word for other people. Of course they have control on what they are prepared to pay for your labour, product, etc. :rolleyes:

The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.

usually the ones who think they can stand against it or ignore it...

Welease

DidierMc wrote: »

The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.

No the market equalises both way, up and down.. If skills are in demand you should see an increase in the cost, if skills are in low demand you will see a drop..

The problem with the Irish attitude, is lots of people want to be paid high prices for average productivitity. That does not, nor will ever make sense in a global economy if you want to remain competitive.

If people want to continue to be paid a higher wage than our competitors they they need to add an equivalent amount of value,.

of course we arent competitive, Lenihan has stated he wants to put a floor under the property market & prevent firesales.

In the US they dont do this and you can buy decent houses in decent locations for under 30,000 dollars. How can we compete with workers who can have such tiny mortgages?

http://www.illinoisproperty.com/shortsale.aspx
http://www.illinoisproperty.com/remaxil/default.asp?p=findahome.asp&page=search&selected=foreclosure

Letting the bubble burst and the recession correct things back in 2008 would mean we would be on the road to recovery now. Instead we have less economic growth and higher unemployment than Iceland :mad:

silverharp

seems that despite all the "pain" were still are an uncompetitive lot who are in denial

In a recession not all prices come down and unit labour costs can go up as junior or operative staff are let go first. The other problem that business faces is that a lower quantity of output has to cover fixed costs either in the short or medium term so it is difficult to create a "virtuous circle"

I'm afraid we will not see any competitiveness improvements until the zombie banks, hotels and other businesses are closed down. Then we will need to privatise all the state pigs and reduce welfare costs to bring the cost of business down to more reasonable levels.

DidierMc

Welease wrote: »

No the market equalises both way, up and down.. If skills are in demand you should see an increase in the cost, if skills are in low demand you will see a drop..

The problem with the Irish attitude, is lots of people want to be paid high prices for average productivitity. That does not, nor will ever make sense in a global economy if you want to remain competitive.

If people want to continue to be paid a higher wage than our competitors they they need to add an equivalent amount of value,.

Fully exposed to the market, Irish wages will drop massively. While naturally profits will go through the roof. Only the rich benifit from the "free" market.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

Fully exposed to the market, Irish wages will drop massively. While naturally profits will go through the roof. Only the rich benifit from the "free" market.

Funny that, Ireland being the 3rd most open economy (down from 1st)...


tho i suppose in your world view we can become more like North Korea :cool: they are not exposed to the world and the government controls everything


I pick the "free market disaster" over the "communist protectionist utopia" of yours anyday

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Funny that, Ireland being the 3rd most open economy (down from 1st)...


tho i suppose in your world view we can become more like North Korea :cool: they are not exposed to the world and the government controls everything


I pick the "free market disaster" over the "communist protectionist utopia" of yours anyday

I'm all in favour of trade. I just want fair trade not "free" trade. I want trade that benifits the millions and not just the millionaires.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

I'm all in favour of trade. I just want fair trade not "free" trade. I want trade that benifits the millions and not just the millionaires.

lol empty rhetoric i love it

if you want "fair" trade then remove all sorts of trade barriers surrounding the EU and rest of first world

you would quickly learn what competition and "fair" trade means when you "really" have to compete against the rest of the world

by the standards of the majority of the world population we here in Ireland are "millionaires", i wonder how Irish Farmers would feel about them being displaced from South American produce or Irish "low paid" workers would feel about Ghanan McDonnalds workers

careful what you wish for...

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

lol empty rhetoric i love it

if you want "fair" trade then remove all sorts of trade barriers surrounding the EU and rest of first world

you would quickly learn what competition and "fair" trade means when you "really" have to compete against the rest of the world

by the standards of the majority of the world population we here in Ireland are "millionaires", i wonder how Irish Farmers would feel about them being displaced from South American produce or Irish "low paid" workers would feel about Ghanan McDonnalds workers

careful what you wish for...

Nothing wrong with certain forms of protectionism. The poor of the world benifit from protectionism.

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

Nothing wrong with certain forms of protectionism.

you cant have "fair" trade coupled with protectionism, both are mutualy exclusive

DidierMc wrote: »

The poor of the world benifit from protectionism.

thats a bad joke you know

DidierMc

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you cant have "fair" trade coupled with protectionism, both are mutualy exclusive



thats a bad joke you know

Try reading a book sometime

ei.sdraob

DidierMc wrote: »

Try reading a book sometime

Try travelling sometime, especially somewhere "poorer" where they could "benefit from protectionism"

Welease

DidierMc wrote: »

Fully exposed to the market, Irish wages will drop massively. While naturally profits will go through the roof. Only the rich benifit from the "free" market.

It seems that you can't see beyond the race to the bottom that unions waffle on about.. I was advocating a race to the top, which as per my post, has no wage cuts... but it does need an understanding that you are unlikely to change the nature of global supply and demand, and therefore need to work your best advantage within that model.

Anonymous1987

ei.sdraob wrote: »

yep article and graphs here

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.com/2010/04/economcis-10042010-irelands.html




seems that despite all the "pain" were still are an uncompetitive lot who are in denial

Cost alone is too narrow a focus, productivity needs to be factored in too otherwise the argument is misleading, that is not to say cost is not important, of course it is but its not the only thing we should be examining when looking at competitiveness.

Anonymous1987

The graph attached shows the top 10 internationally for GDP per hour worked relative to the US (US is the base i.e. equal to 100). So we are still 5th in the world for productivity, as of 2008 anyway. Source OECD http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL

silverharp

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

The graph attached shows the top 10 internationally for GDP per hour worked relative to the US (US is the base i.e. equal to 100). So we are still 5th in the world for productivity, as of 2008 anyway. Source OECD http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DatasetCode=LEVEL

I wouldnt take the numbers at face value. There are too many zombie businesses here relative to other coutries. Plus its easy to generate "fake" or unsustainable GDP if the state is borrowing excessively relative to everyone else

Anonymous1987

Silverharp2 wrote: »

I wouldnt take the numbers at face value. There are too many zombie businesses here relative to other coutries. Plus its easy to generate "fake" or unsustainable GDP if the state is borrowing excessively relative to everyone else

My point was to illustrate that labour cost is not the full story for competitiveness. Besides we're not the only country running a budget deficit (in fact we had no other economic stimulus aside from automatic stabilisers). The figures are to be treated with caution but nevertheless they are good indicators.

silverharp

Anonymous1987 wrote: »

My point was to illustrate that labour cost is not the full story for competitiveness. Besides we're not the only country running a budget deficit (in fact we had no other economic stimulus aside from automatic stabilisers). The figures are to be treated with caution but nevertheless they are good indicators.

too simplistic though. A genuine top tier country would be owners of capital or generators of IPR. While Ireland has pockets of excellence, too much of the economy was debt/consumption driven. On the plus side, ireland had a decent demographic position so it should have been a "cheap" economy to run with a 20 year window or so to build up the capital stock. This window seems to be have blown

DJCR

DidierMc wrote: »

The market is not another word for people. The market screws people over.

Funny that .... seen as people control the market!!

Thing is, when we got "rich" we got retarded at the same time... paying prices for stuff that were well above their worth.

If the "market" ie. us decide we won't pay over the odds for stuff you will find that the price will drop to compete with similar knock-offs.

The only thing is the "market" is broke... and "it" can't afford to pay the high prices of the past... so prices have dropped.

Suppose thats a bad thing for the "Market" so. Good thing for the people though !

the_dark_side

paddyland wrote: »

So much for Bertie shooting us into the stratosphere, instead of keeping growth on some kind of par with everyone else.

We were like a little leprechaun, who got a Ferrari, filled the tank with nitro-glycerine, took off, and went headlong into a concrete wall.

Instead of respecting the car, and driving it properly.

As the old saying goes, 'give a beggar a horse, and he'll ride iot to hell'

I couldn't help wondering last night, as I watched to 9 o'clock news, what is Ireland actually exporting? It showed a clip of some 40' containers being loaded onto/off something by a crane, and the commentry went '..meanwhile, Irish exports are slightly up on this time last year'... maybe they contained reposessed Ferrari's

DJCR

the_dark_side wrote: »

I couldn't help wondering last night, as I watched to 9 o'clock news, what is Ireland actually exporting?

Chemical Products, Medical and Pharmaceuticle Products Exports have risen dramatically (As export share goes) ... I assume they are whats driving on the increase in exports.

AlekSmart

As the old saying goes, 'give a beggar a horse, and he'll ride it to hell'

The_Dark_Side may be closer the truth than many want to accept.

I had occasion yesterday (Sat) to visit a pal who lives in a sizeable estate in South Dublin.
I had`nt visited him in quite some time and I was struck by the look of decripitude of his area.
I had to stop for directions outside the local Pub,which appeared to have as many standing outside smoking as were inside watchin Sporty stuff on telly.
Biggest problem was turning my Bike to avoid a big spread of broken bottles in the car Park,but armed with my new directions I found my Pal`s abode.

He lives in a cul-de-sac with a palasaide fence at the end,which was twisted and widened apart to allow a person squeeze through.
First thing I noticed was the remains of a burned out scooter wedged up against the fence.

I had a cuppa with my friend (who recently lost his job but is hopeful of securing another one soon) who told me the place had turned very ropey in recent times with a very unwelcome return of car and bike thieving and burn-out`s.

What happened next was straight out of the realms of Monty Python.....his neighbour knocked in and asked if we would give him a hand movin a washin machine....so we all went in next door and lifted it onto a trolley which our man then wheeled up the road to the Burnt-Out scotter and tipped it out beside it !!!!

Seems the neighbour had a pal in the Council who advised him of a contractor employed to collect burned-out stolen vehicles which would be in the area on Monday morning early...so why not get rid of the old washing machine this way...there`s efficiency for ye !!!

In all honesty I was glad to get back on the bike and away out of the place,as all I could think of was MY investment getting torched outside his gaff by one of the many sullen-faced young chaps gathered around outside.

On my way to work, little further up the road I came across a large group of hi-viz clad people along the roadside and on the roundabouts.
Each group was picking up litter and tidying up the flower beds as well as cleaning graffiti of the road-signs.

I went into the filling station to get fuel and got talking to one of the hi-viz people,turns out it was a Residents Association Clean Up Day,supported by the Local Council and local businesses,but all voluntary.

The hi-viz folk were mainly middle-aged or of pensionable age and were all beavering away in great form.

What struck me was the absolute contrast between the two locations,barely 5 minutes apart...it was like Night and Day.

What is it that makes one group sit in the dirt and await somebody else to clear up after them and the next group to simply get stuck-in and improve their own environment.

The Competiveness or otherwise of Ireland is largely within the gift of it`s own people and I feel we are at a tipping-point here...either we recognize that there is no great white hope going to ride in and rescue us from our own misadventures or we continue to sit in a dark corner and bemoan our own bad luck...it`s a choice....not something we like making at all.

Tea drinker

paddyland wrote: »

We were like a little leprechaun, who got a Ferrari, filled the tank with nitro-glycerine, took off, and went headlong into a concrete wall.

More like a pimped out A-team van with all of us inside, and now leprachaun wants us to pay for his bad driving and poor choice of vehicle.

The hi-viz folk were mainly middle-aged or of pensionable age and were all beavering away in great form.

Well fair play to them, that's the difference between a victim and a participant.
I will temper that and say there has been massive wealth tranfer from young people to the older generation!

RichardAnd

Tea drinker wrote: »

More like a pimped out A-team van with all of us inside, and now leprachaun wants us to pay for his bad driving and poor choice of vehicle.


Well fair play to them, that's the difference between a victim and a participant.
I will temper that and say there has been massive wealth tranfer from young people to the older generation!

Interesting metaphor. I'll sum up by disagreement with what you are saying by expanding upon it; the leprechaun was put in the driving seat by the people at the back and no one made them get in.

As to your second statement, that there has been a wealth transfer to the older generations. Well really, do you not think that people who have worked 20, 30 or 40 years ought to have more money than the younger generation? Most of the young generation, and I would be part of it as I'm only 23, p!ssed any money they had (borrowed) against the wall. That's not a transfer of wealth.

hiorta

On holiday in Donegal to visit relatives and do a bit of sight-seeing in my favourite places, I had the misfortune to be in Carrigart one evening in mid summer.
After a decent meal in the North Star, I went to the only phone box I could see at the hotel, to find a young smart arse pretending to be using it for over 30 minures, presumably to prevent a Scots spoken individual from using it.

Earlier in the North star, I recognised a man at the bar who I knew when we were 16 year olds. He had been abroad for many years and was now severely afflicted with arthritis. We enjoyed a few geniuses, but later on another smart arse, presumably having heard the accent, wanted to fight me all because 'there were some 500,000 Protestants/ Rangers supporters in Glasgow'.
Needless to say, I've never been back.

Sandvich

There's a number of issues here.

First, we don't have a lot in terms of national resources. Second, apart from pharmacuticals we don't have a lot in terms of our own industries.

Ireland relied on, for the most part, other countries for it's economic growth. If you think about most of the businesses/companies you take seriously in Ireland; most of them are run by foreigners.

Because we had no long term plan to develop as a nation, we're now stuck with little in the way of growth prospects.

The other problem is the high cost of living. You can't realistically slash minimum wage by much, or even welfare without putting many people into economic difficulty. People are calling for a drop in these without dealing with the root problem that causes them to be so high to begin with.

The Nordic countries can survive on higher costs of living because they have their own industry. Most of europe does. Even the UK does to some extent.

The main issue with Ireland is that as it is, we're just not worth an awful lot as a country. Tourism was one of our greatest draws but evne that's going down.

Other than cutting and slashing, which would do nothing to improve the economy as countless IMF examples have shown, how can we realistically get out of this slump? We're waiting for the rest of the world to pick up slack, basically, and come back and help us all over again. Meaning in another 20-30 years time, the same thing will happen again.

thebman

Sandvich wrote: »

The other problem is the high cost of living. You can't realistically slash minimum wage by much, or even welfare without putting many people into economic difficulty. People are calling for a drop in these without dealing with the root problem that causes them to be so high to begin with.

We've seen prices dropping for over a year now. How much do they have to drop before we can consider the cost of living to have fallen enough to cut welfare and minimum wage.

Seems like a bad joke at this stage TBH.

Other than cutting and slashing, which would do nothing to improve the economy as countless IMF examples have shown, how can we realistically get out of this slump? We're waiting for the rest of the world to pick up slack, basically, and come back and help us all over again. Meaning in another 20-30 years time, the same thing will happen again.

Making cuts is necessary and not a problem as long as you cut the right things. Lets start with the quangos and modernising procedures and cutting excess staff once we have done that.

We can make substantial cuts without actually affecting service much at all if we do it right.

paddyland

thebman wrote: »

We've seen prices dropping for over a year now. How much do they have to drop before we can consider the cost of living to have fallen enough to cut welfare and minimum wage.

Where are all these drop in prices we keep hearing about? Granted, there are a few good savings to be made here and there, particularly in the realm of hard hit small businesses, who are forced to cut prices to the bone just to break even and stay in business.

But the important bills, phone bills, electric bills, insurance, mortgage, health insurance, fuel, doctors' fees, dentists, solicitors, all manner of a hundred different bills which hit ordinary people the hardest, have not come down at all, in fact many are still going UP.

Tesco drop the price of bread today, then tomorrow it goes back up and there's a half price deal on yoghurts, the next day it's apple tarts. All that does is prove how much markup there is on day to day items, and how we continue to be ripped off blindly.

I don't see any sign whatsoever that prices across the board, and I mean everything, are going to drop anything like the kind of realistic amount that would justify the kind of salary and welfare cuts that are required. Again, it is the little guy at the bottom of the food chain who is squeezed dry.

It is all a sham, and while the country gasps and wheezes for life, profiteering continues on a grand scale, and absolutely nothing of SUBSTANCE changes in any meaningful way.

Sandvich

We've seen prices dropping for over a year now. How much do they have to drop before we can consider the cost of living to have fallen enough to cut welfare and minimum wage.

It really hasn't. If you're earning loads of money you probably won't pay much attention to these things. The cost of many things is rising.

For example the cost of a bottle of ballgowan sparkling water has gone up from 1.98 to 2.30 in the local Spar(2.3 times what it costs in Tesco). That's inexcuable. Obviously, I try not to buy from there, but I often need some water later at night when going to Tesco isn't practical.

old_aussie

Just a quick question.

Does Ireland export to countries that are not in the EU?

dan_d

The cost of living is related to the wages people get paid.
Can't have one go up without the other going up too. And vice versa. The problem is the pain in the middle when they start to decrease. We were never this worried when they were going up.We complained alright...but not worried.
The bigger problem would be the mortgages....

maninasia

old_aussie wrote: »

Just a quick question.

Does Ireland export to countries that are not in the EU?

Yes, it does. Unfortunately it doesn't export enough..if it exported more to Asia there wouldn't be such an economic crisis.

dean21

murphaph wrote: »

Then you better move to a country with a real knowledge economy because Ireland doesn't have one of any size. Ireland IS in competition with Poland for jobs, FACT!

what do you know about a knowledge economy???
Define one for us

murphaph

dean21 wrote: »

what do you know about a knowledge economy???
Define one for us

Finland.

Seriously dean, name a few indiginous Irish firms involved in the "knowldege economy". Ireland is still an FDI dependent country. We have some software development going on but little else I'm afraid. Sorry to ruin the FF illusion for you!

galway2007

If we are not getting competitiveness back dose that not cast doubt over all those so called private sector pay cut we keep hearing about???

Tea drinker

thebman wrote: »

We've seen prices dropping for over a year now. How much do they have to drop before we can consider the cost of living to have fallen enough to cut welfare and minimum wage.

Seems like a bad joke at this stage TBH.



Making cuts is necessary and not a problem as long as you cut the right things. Lets start with the quangos and modernising procedures and cutting excess staff once we have done that.

We can make substantial cuts without actually affecting service much at all if we do it right.

I agree with you bman.
It's agood idea to focus our slashing on non productive areas and redirect the little bit of cash that we have to things that increase our competitiveness like better infrastructure, or even indiginous R+D.
Some people here think that just because we have uncompetitive areas in the economy they must be sheltered to avoid damaging the whole economy if they were streamlined.