With the KRP Cancelled, So the Interconnector is Dead Too?

FlameoftheWest

What would be the point of running DARTS into a dead end station at Inchicore. Would defeat the whole objective. Is this them breaking the news to us that the whole Dublin Rail Plan was just marketing, slick CGI and youtube videos.

Phoenix Park Tunnel anyone?

KC61

Sigh. As I've said elsewhere the KRP is NOT cancelled. The four tracking has and will deliver improvements in reliability regardless.

There is no rolling stock to operate additional services until the second half of 2011 at the earliest when the next tranche of stock is delivered.

The article was somewhat misleading in that regard.

FlameoftheWest

KC61 wrote: »

Sigh. As I've said elsewhere the KRP is NOT cancelled. The four tracking has and will deliver improvements in reliability regardless.

There is no rolling stock to operate additional services until the second half of 2011 at the earliest when the next tranche of stock is delivered.

The article was somewhat misleading in that regard.

Fair enough I am only catching up on this now.

Looking again it seems that you are jumping the gun here and we should be worried about the Interconnector being cancelled.

KC61

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Fair enough I am only catching up on this now.

Looking again it seems that you are jumping the gun here and we should be worried about the Interconnector being cancelled.

I am not saying that but what I am saying is that there was no hope of any extra trains on that route until the end of next year at the earliest when the next tranche of 22K sets were delivered and commissioned.

Given the manner that IE plan their timetables, it is impossible to say now that after the new sets arrive that no additional services will operate.

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

Sigh. As I've said elsewhere the KRP is NOT cancelled. The four tracking has and will deliver improvements in reliability regardless.

There is no rolling stock to operate additional services until the second half of 2011 at the earliest when the next tranche of stock is delivered.

The article was somewhat misleading in that regard.

Sorry KC, but Im at a loss as to which part of this you refuse to understand. You are insisting on this line about rolling stock availability. I know the additional services were dependent on it. But...

The article clearly states that planned services for NEXT YEAR will not be introduced and refers to the forthcoming rolling stock that was intended to make these extra services possible.

I agree that the KRP is not cancelled, but it is not being fully commissioned with additional services even after the new rolling stock arrives.

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

I am not saying that but what I am saying is that there was no hope of any extra trains on that route until the end of next year at the earliest when the next tranche of 22K sets were delivered and commissioned.

Given the manner that IE plan their timetables, it is impossible to say now that after the new sets arrive that no additional services will operate.

But IE have confirmed that NO additional services will operate.

KC61

DWCommuter wrote: »

But IE have confirmed that NO additional services will operate.

NEXT year!

The earliest they could would be the 2012 timetable change in December 2011!!!

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

NEXT year!

The earliest they could would be the 2012 timetable change in December 2011!!!

I know that and what Im saying to you is that there will be no additional trains provided on the KRP in the timetable issued in December 2011, which is still next year regardless of how you want to portray it.

KC61

Listen I think we both have different takes on this and I am not going to go on and on with this.

But knowing how the railway company works, they tend to view the December timetable change as being the following year's timetable and that could well be what is meant here.

We will wait and see.

DWCommuter

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

What would be the point of running DARTS into a dead end station at Inchicore. Would defeat the whole objective. Is this them breaking the news to us that the whole Dublin Rail Plan was just marketing, slick CGI and youtube videos.

Phoenix Park Tunnel anyone?

The entire plan is now totally and utterly at the mercy of the economic situation. It was an all out assault on building the best, with no back up plan, if the money ran out. Add to that the interference at Government level. Incremental solutions were tossed aside. There is a real chance that we could be left with bits and pieces that under perform.

Interconnector is 2018 now.

loyatemu

surely the "project" was to quad-track that part of the line and this has now been done (I know there's a bit closer to heuston that is still a bottleneck). Whether they run additional services this year or next doesn't change the fact that the tracks are in place.

dowlingm

loyatemu wrote: »

surely the "project" was to quad-track that part of the line and this has now been done (I know there's a bit closer to heuston that is still a bottleneck). Whether they run additional services this year or next doesn't change the fact that the tracks are in place.

They are not all in service. The oldest two tracks are being relaid in stages, now the newest two are operational. Full availability of 4-track will come in with the December timetable I'd say.

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

They are not all in service. The oldest two tracks are being relaid in stages, now the newest two are operational. Full availability of 4-track will come in with the December timetable I'd say.

They were all in service for a three month period or so, but now the "down fast", i.e. outbound fast, line is being relaid.

The four lines will deliver improvements in reliability and increase the peak hour capacity - something that is much needed.

Cookie_Monster

can i ask a slightly more technical question about this project as I am not too familiar with it. I have seen it being built, and even been on a train to Galway and seen construction, but how does it work at stations?

Does it revert to two lines?
Do the two new track go around the station?
Have the stations been rebuilt to allow 4 tracks within their platform coverage?

KenGriffin

KC61 wrote: »

NEXT year!

The earliest they could would be the 2012 timetable change in December 2011!!!

Nope. IE told me that none of the planned additional services would be introduced due to falling demand. This remains the position for the forseeable future - which includes 2011/2.

KenGriffin

KC61 wrote: »

The article was somewhat misleading in that regard.

I never implied that the KRP was cancelled. It is clear from the pieces that all the construction work will be completed but that none of the promised new services would arrive.

FlameoftheWest

KenGriffin wrote: »

Nope. IE told me that none of the planned additional services would be introduced due to falling demand. This remains the position for the forseeable future - which includes 2011/2.

So in terms of service improvements it has been cancelled.

Transportuser09

KenGriffin wrote: »

I never implied that the KRP was cancelled. It is clear from the pieces that all the construction work will be completed but that none of the promised new services would arrive.

But they will arrive...just not as quickly as originally planned. Consider also the coming of the Dart to Hazelhatch, etc...

Transportuser09

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

So in terms of service improvements it has been cancelled.

The reduction of delays to long distance trains by the seperation of them from stopping commuter services is a service improvement all the same.

Anyway, the KRP may well prove to be a valuable piece of investment for the future, allowing the growth and improvement of services along the route, we can't say demand won't ever increase years down the road.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

can i ask a slightly more technical question about this project as I am not too familiar with it. I have seen it being built, and even been on a train to Galway and seen construction, but how does it work at stations?

Does it revert to two lines?
Do the two new track go around the station?
Have the stations been rebuilt to allow 4 tracks within their platform coverage?

It is 4 track all the way from just before Parkwest to just after Hazelhatch.

Each station has four platforms (and some have a fifth).

KC61

KenGriffin wrote: »

Nope. IE told me that none of the planned additional services would be introduced due to falling demand. This remains the position for the forseeable future - which includes 2011/2.

While that may well be the case now, it might change in 21 months.

The point I am making is that the article is referring to potential improvements that might happen in 21 months time.

I'm long enough watching the CIE group to know that plans can change completely in that timeframe. As an example, the Mark 4 rolling stock was orignally planned to be used on all the routes out of Heuston, and the coaches have maps to that effect. The plans then changed to using them to provide the now hourly Dublin/Cork service.

Any company's plans can change over that length of time, and given that they weren't going to happen until that point I still think it's a bit of a red herring.

What matters is what is planned during the summer of 2011 - not now.

KC61

KenGriffin wrote: »

I never implied that the KRP was cancelled. It is clear from the pieces that all the construction work will be completed but that none of the promised new services would arrive.

Apologies - the OP did.

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

While that may well be the case now, it might change in 21 months.

The point I am making is that the article is referring to potential improvements that might happen in 21 months time.

I'm long enough watching the CIE group to know that plans can change completely in that timeframe. As an example, the Mark 4 rolling stock was orignally planned to be used on all the routes out of Heuston, and the coaches have maps to that effect. The plans then changed to using them to provide the now hourly Dublin/Cork service.

Any company's plans can change over that length of time, and given that they weren't going to happen until that point I still think it's a bit of a red herring.

What matters is what is planned during the summer of 2011 - not now.

Your credibility is slipping now.

IE confirmed to the Tribune that all planned additional services on the KRP have been cancelled. I relayed that info to this forum and debated it with you. Earlier today you told me I was wrong. Remember that?

Well I think you read it wrong DW.

This is a pointless discussion as it all relates to planning for a timetable change in 21 months time, by which time the plans for the new sets could completely change!

The plain fact remains nothing can happen until the new stock arrives.

The journalist has taken the time to come on here and clarify it for you.Now you are just trying to cover your ass with rediculous speculation that flies in the face of fact, combined with evidence that isn't a like with like comparison and flimsy at best.

Admit you were wrong. You'll get more respect for it.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

It is 4 track all the way from just before Parkwest to just after Hazelhatch.

Each station has four platforms (and some have a fifth).

thanks.

surely thats over building then? Why not have just two island platforms, each serving 2 track lines. sounds wasteful to me.

KenGriffin

Following some contact from IE, I just want to clarify my comments from earlier.

I was working from memory, without access to my original materials. The exact IE answer, which was more nuanced regarding 2011 onwards, was:

The new infrastructure is in place, allowing for service expansion
into the future. However, as passenger demand has fallen due to the
recession, we're not planning currently to expand services. However, we
now have the infrastructure to allow for expansion.

[....]

We will continue to review service levels and the 22K order, coming
in 2011-12, will allow us to deploy on Kildare as well as other
longer-distance commuter services. We see this pause in service
expansion as relatively short term, and we will be equipped with the
infrastructure and fleet needed to deliver growth in the future.

Transportuser09

KenGriffin wrote: »

Following some contact from IE, I just want to clarify my comments from earlier.

I was working from memory, without access to my original materials. The exact IE answer, which was more nuanced regarding 2011 onwards, was:

The new infrastructure is in place, allowing for service expansion
into the future. However, as passenger demand has fallen due to the
recession, we're not planning currently to expand services. However, we
now have the infrastructure to allow for expansion.

[....]

We will continue to review service levels and the 22K order, coming
in 2011-12, will allow us to deploy on Kildare as well as other
longer-distance commuter services. We see this pause in service
expansion as relatively short term, and we will be equipped with the
infrastructure and fleet needed to deliver growth in the future.

Fair play to you for putting this up. However, maybe the article would have been more accurate if you had mentioned that the pause was short term as stated in your correspondence with IÉ. Otherwise it gives the impression that IÉ have no interest in expanding services on the KRP.

shamwari

DWCommuter wrote: »

Your credibility is slipping now.
[.....]
Admit you were wrong. You'll get more respect for it.

Well you are both right! Firstly I think Ken's clarification above proves there is more than a kernel of truth in what KC61 has said.

DW is also right in that all bets are off regarding additional services on the KRP for the moment, but those additional services weren't going to happen anyway till the new order of 22000 railcars had arrived, been tested and deployed.

I do think they will have to run some new services with these new trains purely because it would be not acceptable to have them delivered and not in service. Otherwise there would be outrage and rightly so. I say this because I remember there were very outspoken comments when the 29000 railcars were put on the Sligo route a few years ago. In my mind, these railcars are unsuitable for that particular route and outwardly the criticism seem justified. However the story behind this is more interesting. IE were unexpectedly given funding for those sets as a result of an underspend in a roads project elsewhere, and therefore they submitted a suplementary order for - I think - another 32 sets. When those sets were delivered, they had to be deployed somewhere. Had this not happened and those sets were left idle, then IE would have been wide open to the accusation that they were wasting taxpayers money. I think the same logic will be applied to these new 22000: they will have to go into service somewhere and to me, the Kildare route does seem the most likely. Let's wait and see

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Fair play to you for putting this up. However, maybe the article would have been more accurate if you had mentioned that the pause was short term as stated in your correspondence with IÉ. Otherwise it gives the impression that IÉ have no interest in expanding services on the KRP.

IE had the right of reply and said this in the article;

The spokesman said the project was still a worthwhile investment. "We see this pause in expansion as relatively short-term and we will be equipped with the infrastructure and fleet to deliver growth in the future," he said.

Have you actually read the article?

DWCommuter

shamwari wrote: »

Well you are both right! Firstly I think Ken's clarification above proves there is more than a kernel of truth in what KC61 has said.

DW is also right in that all bets are off regarding additional services on the KRP for the moment, but those additional services weren't going to happen anyway till the new order of 22000 railcars had arrived, been tested and deployed.

I do think they will have to run some new services with these new trains purely because it would be not acceptable to have them delivered and not in service. Otherwise there would be outrage and rightly so. I say this because I remember there were very outspoken comments when the 29000 railcars were put on the Sligo route a few years ago. In my mind, these railcars are unsuitable for that particular route and outwardly the criticism seem justified. However the story behind this is more interesting. IE were unexpectedly given funding for those sets as a result of an underspend in a roads project elsewhere, and therefore they submitted a suplementary order for - I think - another 32 sets. When those sets were delivered, they had to be deployed somewhere. Had this not happened and those sets were left idle, then IE would have been wide open to the accusation that they were wasting taxpayers money. I think the same logic will be applied to these new 22000: they will have to go into service somewhere and to me, the Kildare route does seem the most likely. Let's wait and see

With respect, KC61 was and continues to speculate. I was basing my posts on what IE confirmed to the Tribune.

Furthermore the decision making process on IEs timetables for the KRP will now be dictated by the hardcore reality of economics and may be well out of their hands. I appreciate the knowledge of some here in relation to the rail network, but I think its time they brushed up on the wider aspects of the economy, because both are intrinsically linked. The Irish Railway Network is no longer a playground of wealth and unprecedented investment. The party is over.

And aren't the forthcoming 22k sets the supplementary order that was a result of the road underspend? Which begs the question, if there was no supplementary order as a result of the road underspend, how were the (now postponed) additional services on the KRP going to be imnplemented?

shamwari

DWCommuter wrote: »

With respect, KC61 was and continues to speculate. I was basing my posts on what IE confirmed to the Tribune.

Furthermore the decision making process on IEs timetables for the KRP will now be dictated by the hardcore reality of economics and may be well out of their hands. I appreciate the knowledge of some here in relation to the rail network, but I think its time they brushed up on the wider aspects of the economy, because both are intrinsically linked. The Irish Railway Network is no longer a playground of wealth and unprecedented investment. The party is over.

And aren't the forthcoming 22k sets the supplementary order that was a result of the road underspend? Which begs the question, if there was no supplementary order as a result of the road underspend, how were the (now postponed) additional services on the KRP going to be imnplemented?

Well, I would have agreed with the assertion that nothing could happen till that order of 22000's were delivered, purely because nothing could happen without them!

I again restate my opinion from above that those new trains coming in will see service, and in that regard, usage on the Kildare route is the most likely. Coming at it from another direction DW, where else could they possibly go?!

As for where the money came for the the supplementary 22000 order, I genuinely don't know, but you may well be right. The logic does follow though that if the number of tracks was going to be doubled, then new trains would also be needed to deliver an increase in services. Just where does the money come from in order to buy the stock to implement these services? An interesting question indeed !

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

IE had the right of reply and said this in the article;



Have you actually read the article?

I was reffering to the statements made in the "Rail against the machine" article. Sorry, I realise I may have posted this in the wrong thread.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

thanks.

surely thats over building then? Why not have just two island platforms, each serving 2 track lines. sounds wasteful to me.

The line is set up with the two fast lines on the outside and the two slow lines on the inside.

There are two outer platforms on the fast lines and then an island platform between the two slow lines.

At Adamstown and Hazelhatch there are turnback platforms.

KC61

DWCommuter wrote: »

Your credibility is slipping now.

IE confirmed to the Tribune that all planned additional services on the KRP have been cancelled. I relayed that info to this forum and debated it with you. Earlier today you told me I was wrong. Remember that?



The journalist has taken the time to come on here and clarify it for you.Now you are just trying to cover your ass with rediculous speculation that flies in the face of fact, combined with evidence that isn't a like with like comparison and flimsy at best.

Admit you were wrong. You'll get more respect for it.

I was never speculating anything.

There could not be any new services until the new rolling stock arrived. Plans for those tend to change frequently, and as I said until the stock is ready to be pressed into service then this sort of discussion is irrelevant.

Ken's clarification clears that up.

With due respect I am fully aware of what the prevailing economics are doing and the impact that it can and will have on services. The Kildare route may well only see modest improvements, or may stay similar to the present, but to say nothing will happen in 21 months when the stock is finally ready is guesswork at the very least.

KC61

DWCommuter wrote: »

And aren't the forthcoming 22k sets the supplementary order that was a result of the road underspend? Which begs the question, if there was no supplementary order as a result of the road underspend, how were the (now postponed) additional services on the KRP going to be imnplemented?

Quite correct!

That is one question that I have been trying to figure out for quite some time!!!

dowlingm

I think I missed something - where does it say the follow on 22K order was cancelled? I understood that they would take delivery (perhaps pushing the acceptance dates a bit) but thought they would then maybe park up some existing commuter DMUs rather than redeploy those (which would require more drivers to be hired and trained)

KC61

The follow up order is not cancelled - there are 17 additional 3-car units on order for delivery in 2011-2012 along with 2 replacement 3-car units for the sets irreparably damaged during their original shipment from Korea.

Sponge Bob

KC61 wrote: »

There are 17 additional 3-car units on order for delivery in 2011-2012 along with 2 replacement 3-car units for the sets irreparably damaged during their original shipment from Korea.

That lot should get us better services on the Limerick - Galway line

dowlingm

that's good news KC61. Any word on whether an acceptable tender came in to repair 22037? (Portlaoise split points incident)

KC61

dowlingm wrote: »

that's good news KC61. Any word on whether an acceptable tender came in to repair 22037? (Portlaoise split points incident)

I have no idea!

But I am sure we'll find out in due course.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote: »

Quite correct!

That is one question that I have been trying to figure out for quite some time!!!

I'll raise you one, it was an underspend on the N 11 that led to this spare money:)

Cookie_Monster

Hamndegger wrote: »

I'll raise you one, it was an underspend on the N 11 that led to this spare money:)

the N11, but its not even finished yet, how about spending that on the rest of the feckin road, sigh!