Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Monty Burnz

Podge_irl wrote: »

I don't think any one thing killed Munster, there were failures all over the pitch. If all the players come back from injury, the back 3 isn't a position I think Munster are in too much trouble - Howlett is obviously brilliant, Jones is going through a rough patch but has played excellently in the past, and Zebo certainly has potential. A decent backs coach will do well with that. The Ospreys game was a nightmare, but it was in a very unfortunate set of circumstances.

The lack of cohesion in their forward pack is something I'd be more concerned with.

Agreed, Howlett is outstanding and has been for years - but for how much longer? A year or two max, if he comes back from that awful injury? An injury that is certain to rob him of a yard of pace?

CIARAN_BOYLE

Podge_irl wrote: »

The lack of cohesion in their forward pack is something I'd be more concerned with.

When all come back from injury I think Munster will be ok. Not in brilliant condition but a very good solid team.

danthefan

I think the back 3 was about the last problem Munster had the other night. There were several issues that will absolutely kill any team and imo they were: lack of commitment. Who would have thought you'd ever be saying that about a Munster team, but several senior players were just missing in action. Secondly is a huge lack of cohesion. Nobody seems to know what anyone else is doing, particularly in attack. There is no discernible gameplan at all in attack, sometimes is one out runners and sometimes it's just fling the ball as wide as possible whether it's on or not.

I don't think the problems are terminal tbh. A good coach, and McGahan certainly is not a good coach imo, can work with the group of players available to Munster.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Agreed, Howlett is outstanding and has been for years - but for how much longer? A year or two max, if he comes back from that awful injury? An injury that is certain to rob him of a yard of pace?

Despite how good Howlett was before his injury, its not his individual form which has cost Munster. His most important attribute is what he brings to the outside backs around him, injury won't have harmed his organisation of the outside backs and his reading of the game ahead of him.

thomond2006

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Despite how good Howlett was before his injury, its not his individual form which has cost Munster. His most important attribute is what he brings to the outside backs around him, injury won't have harmed his organisation of the outside backs and his reading of the game ahead of him.

Spot on, we've really missed his 'captaincy' of the backline.

GerM

profitius wrote: »

I also think McGahan was far to slow bringing players through.

Theres numerous examples.
-Murray and Barnes only made the breakthrough at the end of last season. Murray had to wait for multiple injuries to get his opportunity.
-Donnacha Ryan was fourth choice last season up until the end of the season again.
-JJ Hanrahan has not yet played a competitive for Munster.
-Keatley has gotten no HEC time, maybe a few minutes in total.
-Horan being ahead of Kilcoyne all season.
I could go on..

Perhaps he could have brought some through quicker but I genuinely think it's the strongest area of his tenure on reflection. Barnes and Murray were only 21 last season and McGahan made them first choice players ahead of internationals like TOL and Tuitupou. He can't force players into playing when they're 19 and completely unprepared for senior rugby. Hanrahan is still only 19 and the same thing applies. He can't just be thrown in and expected to be ready against seasoned professionals 10 years his senior.

Keatley hasn't had much HEC game time but unfortunately the games haven't really afforded McGahan the opportunity. He was never going to bring him into a tight game that was in the balance. He got on against Northampton (where the game wasn't secure until the last 10 minutes) and against Castres at home. Not enough really but circumstances made things difficult and if he had come on earlier and those games went to the wire, he would have been destroyed by the press and supporters for bringing him on. He has given Keatley significant games in the Pro12 though. Only 8 Munster players have had more time on the field this season.

Kilcoyne probably should have and could have been given some more games this season. He was pulled from the AIL though having never been taken into the academy originally though which shows a bit of willingness to look beyond the usual routes but that's glossed over by many and the failure to play him enough this season is focussed on.

McGahan was far from perfect but he seems to be constantly beaten with the development stick which isn't right in my opinion. I'd have much more issue with the limited tactics on the field and his signings.

Amazotheamazing

GerM wrote: »

Kilcoyne probably should have and could have been given some more games this season. He was pulled from the AIL though having never been taken into the academy originally though which shows a bit of willingness to look beyond the usual routes but that's glossed over by many and the failure to play him enough this season is focussed on.

Fairly sure Kilcoyne has been in the Academy for a few years. He was on the same Ardscoil team as Mike Sherry.

GerM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Fairly sure Kilcoyne has been in the Academy for a few years. He was on the same Ardscoil team as Mike Sherry.

Sorry, should have clarified. I meant he was brought into the academy when older. He was never brought in when he was about 19 when most players come into the set up but was brought into the academy for last season when he was older after playing AIL for some time. Similar story with Sherry who was fast tracked then to the senior squad. Think neither got into the Munster set up until they were 21/22.

Amazotheamazing

GerM wrote: »

Sorry, should have clarified. I meant he was brought into the academy when older. He was never brought in when he was about 19 when most players come into the set up but was brought into the academy for last season when he was older after playing AIL for some time. Similar story with Sherry who was fast tracked then to the senior squad. Think neither got into the Munster set up until they were 21/22.

Fairly sure that's not right. Sherry always had a pretty good rep, he's definitely been with the sub-Academy if not the full Academy since around the first year of college, same with Kilcoyne. I remember the surprise when Sherry missed out on the u20's Irish squad for the RWC.

irishbucsfan

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Fairly sure that's not right. Sherry always had a pretty good rep, he's definitely been with the sub-Academy if not the full Academy since around the first year of college, same with Kilcoyne. I remember the surprise when Sherry missed out on the u20's Irish squad for the RWC.

I think his point is that the Munster system seems to admit young players a little later than the !einster system, for example.

Probably all stems from the conditioning aspect.

Would it be possible for the IRFU to maybe assist schools in Munster by investing in schools facilities?

Monty Burnz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Would it be possible for the IRFU to maybe assist schools in Munster by investing in schools facilities?

The school I was in had a decent gym, and that was in the 90s.

phog

touts wrote: »

McGahan took over the greatest team in Europe and turned them into this. It is going to be a bleak couple of years for Rob Penny. He has **** all to work with.

I think you're being harsh on McGahan, McGahan inherited a great team but a team that was getting on in years, he developed some younger players and had it not been for a host of injuries this year then I believe we could have competed better than we did in the 2 knockout games that we've lost. I've no doubt that had Dougie been on the field against Ulster Gilroy would not have scored his try.

Friday night would have been a tough one anyway but losing POC, Wally, Howlett, Leamey, Coughlan and even Niall Ronan left us in the mire.

RuggieBear wrote: »

ESPN are showing a doc on Limerick and Munster rugby tomorrow morning at 10.30am

Munster Rugby: A Limerick Love Affair
Profiling the Limerick rugby community and its relationship with the Munster team

I saw it before but liked to have Sky+ it, anyone know if it's being repeated?

Some end of season stats.:

We've used 48 players in the Rabo, 20 of them have scored tries (Zebo on 8), we've used 33 players in the H/Cup, 10 of them have scored tries (Zebo on 4).

In total 24 players have scored 57 tries for Munster this season (we've also had 4 penalty tries awarded to us), we've conceded 42 tries.

We had 16 yellow cards issued to Munster players, 17 Y and One Red against opposition players in games with Munster.

GerM

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Fairly sure that's not right. Sherry always had a pretty good rep, he's definitely been with the sub-Academy if not the full Academy since around the first year of college, same with Kilcoyne. I remember the surprise when Sherry missed out on the u20's Irish squad for the RWC.

Might have been sub-academy (as are a good number of players) but Sherry wasn't in the academy until he was 21. He wasn't hugely on the radar at U20 level. Didn't go to the JWC but didn't get on at all during the 6N either that year either. Stephen Douglas and JHW were the hookers selected throughout. Don't think Kilcoyne has been with the sub-academy that long unless he was in it for 2 or 3 years as he wasn't brought into the full academy until last season and he turns 24 at the end of this year.

Point being, McGahan and the set up he oversaw, monitored these lads and identified their talent despite them not being earmarked for greatness initially. Once the set up felt they were ready, they were brought in which deserves some credit.

irishbucsfan

Matt Todd not included in the NZ summer squad.

Could he be a potential project player?

buck65

Glad the season is over in a way, we were always going to struggle after losing to Ulster, the try before half time killed the game and Munster just checked out early as far as I could see.
In a way it is a good result as there will be no delusion about just waht has to be done. We were poor all season bar the odd highlight in the HCup , most bizarre thing is we qualified for both playoffs.
We need to bring in a big backrow badly as we are light here , apart from that with some -ok alot -of decent coaching we are not too far away.

budhabob

buck65 wrote: »

Glad the season is over in a way, we were always going to struggle after losing to Ulster, the try before half time killed the game and Munster just checked out early as far as I could see.
In a way it is a good result as there will be no delusion about just waht has to be done. We were poor all season bar the odd highlight in the HCup , most bizarre thing is we qualified for both playoffs.
We need to bring in a big backrow badly as we are light here , apart from that with some -ok alot -of decent coaching we are not too far away.

I have to agree with this. I do think we have some great talent coming through, bar a brute of a backrow, Munster are just devoid of any inspirational ideas.I'm looking forward to next season,just to see progress and forward movement. I don't expect miracles just yet.

Fishooks12

budhabob wrote: »

I have to agree with this. I do think we have some great talent coming through, bar a brute of a backrow, Munster are just devoid of any inspirational ideas.I'm looking forward to next season,just to see progress and forward movement. I don't expect miracles just yet.

I think we need a ball carrying back row to compliment the likes of POM and Butler, other than that I'd be a lot more worried about our front row

Prop Joe

"Disrespectful to the Munster Jersey" says Moss Finn

Bit harsh,he also had choice words towards ROG

http://bigredbench.blogspot.com/2012/05/disrespectful-to-munster-jersey-claims.html

CiaranMT

Good read on the current state of affairs here:

http://adrugcalledsport.blogspot.com/2012/05/how-do-you-solve-problem-like-munster.html

touts

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

I think that's a fair assessment.

Ultimately let's see who our replacements/younger guys should have been

Darragh Hurley - always injured, replaced by Kilcoyne, decent prospect
Sherry- injured for most of the season
Archer - still a complete novice
Dave Foley - dislocated shoulder
Nagle - recurring ankle injury?
POM - big season, injured last season - Irish debut
TOD - injured this season
DOCv2.0 - injured this season, needs knee surgery?
Butler - coming through
Murray - Irish starter
Keatley - mixed season, ankle injury in March?
Zebo - fringe Irish player?
Dineen - injured for most of the season?
Barnes - injured before Christmas?
O'Dea- series of niggles
Jones - made of glass.

Now, maybe all teams have a similar profile but that is some list of injuries.

Add into that Flannery retired, Varley injured, POC injured, Wallace retired, Ronan, Leamy, Coughlan injured, and Howlett and Earls injured for large parts of the season.

I've never seen anything like it tbh.

I think the telling point is the rate of injury in the young lads. In Leinster they seem to have a conveyer belt of young talented players coming through with relatively few injuries and certainly not as serious as the ones Munster have. Most of our academy seem to be injured half the season. We may have played 48 players (or something like that) in the season but that is more because we are scraping the bottom of the playing barrel rather than falling over ourselves with talent.

Murray, Dineen and O'Donnell were all outclassed on Friday. I know you can argue that Dineen was playing out of position but that was because of injury to all the wingers. Even the young lads who came off the bench looked more like terrified lambs to the slaughter than impact subs (although the rout was well on by the time most of them came on).

And it is not just the young lads in the past few years we have seen Flannery, Wallace, Murphy, Dowling all forced to retire injured while Leamy, POC, Ronan, Howlett and Coughlan all seem to be held together with sticky tape.

You reach a point when an injury crisis develops where it is no longer bad luck. Other teams have injuries but not the the extent that Munster seem to have them. There must be something systemic causing these long term injuries. Facilities, training, coaching, style of play? I'm not sure what it is but the end result is our senior team are walking wounded while the young lads coming up are years behind their Leinster equilivents because in Munster they spend more time in hospital than on the pitch.

Kev_2012

I'm looking forward to seeing how Downey is used with Earls/Laulala.

If he can break a tackle and get the offload away, either of the other 2 should run decent lines off that. Mafi has been off the boil for the past 2 years since Tipoki left.

I'd like to see this backline next year.
9 - Murray
10 - Keatley
11 - Zebo
12 - Downey
13 - Earls/Laulala
14 - Howlett
15 - Jones

As for the forwards, and I have noticed this for the last 2 seasons, there are no pods being set up for taking the ball on. How many times did we see one of our forwards isolated with no one within 8/9 yards around him to clear out? I think we are fairly solid for props and if Sherry stays fit I'd have him in. We definitely need a SOB type player though.

1 - Du Preez
2 - Sherry
3 - Botha
4 - Ryan
5 - O'Connell
6 - AN Other
7 - O'Mahony
8 - Butler

(Maybe a reshuffle of the backrow dependent on the new signing, I'd still like to see both the young lads get stronger though)

HEC game 1, supposing all players fit

1 WdP
2 Sherry
3 Botha
4 POC
5 Ryan
6 POM
7 TOD
8 Coughlan
9 Murray
10 Keatley/ ROG
11 Earls
12 Downey
13 Lualala
14 Howlett
15 Jones

can't see past this tbh. perhaps Ronan instead of TOD

slievenamon fella

ya i must say it looks like a solid team...mayb a few questions over zebo bu i dont think he is good enuf to keep earls or dougie ou!

Fireball07

Kev_2012 wrote: »

I'm looking forward to seeing how Downey is used with Earls/Laulala.

If he can break a tackle and get the offload away, either of the other 2 should run decent lines off that. Mafi has been off the boil for the past 2 years since Tipoki left.

I'd like to see this backline next year.
9 - Murray
10 - Keatley
11 - Zebo
12 - Downey
13 - Earls/Laulala
14 - Howlett
15 - Jones

As for the forwards, and I have noticed this for the last 2 seasons, there are no pods being set up for taking the ball on. How many times did we see one of our forwards isolated with no one within 8/9 yards around him to clear out? I think we are fairly solid for props and if Sherry stays fit I'd have him in. We definitely need a SOB type player though.

1 - Du Preez
2 - Sherry
3 - Botha
4 - Ryan
5 - O'Connell
6 - AN Other
7 - O'Mahony
8 - Butler

(Maybe a reshuffle of the backrow dependent on the new signing, I'd still like to see both the young lads get stronger though)

As for as absolute first choice goes, can you really drop Coughlan?? I know we have to build for the future but Coughlan is consistently one of the best players on the pitch when he plays. If Leamy comes back, I'd make him first choice, otherwise I'd put Ronan at 7, I suppose.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing a good bit of rotation. Give players like LOD, Hanrahan, Nagle, Foley, Kilcoyne, Archer, etc. gametime but not just in matches where we're playing our 2nd team basically. Give them games with the experienced players in relatively big games. And obviously Butler and DOC2 aswell.

Say have your full-strength team out, but put LOD on one wing, with Howlett on the other. And put Kilcoyne in an otherwise first-choice front row. Maybe Hanrahan at 12, beside Laulala. Give them a chance to learn from the experienced players.


And he shouldn't be afraid to drop players either, that's most important. When everyone is fit, we do have a good amount of options. If competition for places is healthy, it improves form all-round.

PhatPiggins

Deleted User wrote: »

HEC game 1, supposing all players fit

1 WdP
2 Sherry
3 Botha
4 POC
5 Ryan
6 POM
7 TOD
8 Coughlan
9 Murray
10 Keatley/ ROG
11 Earls
12 Downey
13 Lualala
14 Howlett
15 Jones

can't see past this tbh. perhaps Ronan instead of TOD

Varley has to start in my book, also I've just tweeted Jerome Kaino and informed him he'll be starting 6 for us next season

irishbucsfan

I'm telling ye lads. Phil Burgess or Matt Todd. Don't you dare miss out.

totallegend

Deleted User wrote: »

HEC game 1, supposing all players fit

1 WdP
2 Sherry
3 Botha
4 POC
5 Ryan
6 POM
7 TOD
8 Coughlan
9 Murray
10 Keatley/ ROG
11 Earls
12 Downey
13 Lualala
14 Howlett
15 Jones

can't see past this tbh. perhaps Ronan instead of TOD

That is a very, very good team. Munster's problem is what happens if/when a few guys get injured.

Like, with that XV, their bench would be:
Varley, Horan, Archer, DOC, Leamy/Ronan, Williams/Stringer, Keatley/ROG, Murphy
I'd be worried enough going into a major HC game with those subs.

Fireball07

totallegend wrote: »

That is a very, very good team. Munster's problem is what happens if/when a few guys get injured.

Like, with that XV, their bench would be:
Varley, Horan, Archer, DOC, Leamy/Ronan, Williams/Stringer, Keatley/ROG, Murphy
I'd be worried enough going into a major HC game with those subs.

I think you're overstating on both sides.

I wouldn't say it's a "very very good team" that is starting. Plenty of talent...but we've either got a very inexperienced or an aging player in the most important position, we've got a fairly standard front row and a back row lacking a bit of physicality. The good news is that if we do get a proper backs coach, our backline could be very dangerous.

But I don't think the subs are that bad. Not much difference between Varley and Sherry, Varley is a good ball carrier, always brings some physicality. The front row subs aren't great, that's the main worry, but Kilcoyne looks reasonably promising. DOC is a fine sub at this level. Leamy is a fantastic option to have on the bench if he's fully fit, Ronan's not a bad player either. Stringer is another player who will speed up the game if brought on. Murphy wouldn't be the most exciting option from the bench, but I'd have Zebo there tbh. It's not a bad bench.

thehairyone

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm assuming it was at best a league for B teams, like the Barry Cup. I love the conspiracy theory element though...

We could very well have been playing B teams but is it so hard to believe that a team from Connacht (albeit the best team that year) could have been beating senior Limerick schools. The league was called the North Munster League or something to that effect. Its not in existence now, was stopped for whatever reason in the early 2000s. its a long time ago now but my abiding memory of the League is either a Nessans/Munchins centre running up from the backline and punching one of our forwards in the face during a lineout when a bit of pushing and shoving was going on. Was near the end of the match (I think it was even blown up early because of it) and the centre was sent off. If anybody reading this was playing during this match (during the 2001/2002 season) it would be great if you could tell me were we playing the Senior team or a B team. Would be great to know either way.

Fireball07

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think you're overstating on both sides.

I wouldn't say it's a "very very good team" that is starting. Plenty of talent...but we've either got a very inexperienced or an aging player in the most important position, we've got a fairly standard front row and a back row lacking a bit of physicality. The good news is that if we do get a proper backs coach, our backline could be very dangerous.

But I don't think the subs are that bad. Not much difference between Varley and Sherry, Varley is a good ball carrier, always brings some physicality. The front row subs aren't great, that's the main worry, but Kilcoyne looks reasonably promising. DOC is a fine sub at this level. Leamy is a fantastic option to have on the bench if he's fully fit, Ronan's not a bad player either. Stringer is another player who will speed up the game if brought on. Murphy wouldn't be the most exciting option from the bench, but I'd have Zebo there tbh. It's not a bad bench.

It's not 2008 anymore. Leamy hasn't been fully fit, nor in form, for quite some time.