Railway Children's Yearly Event Now? - Institutionalised Insanity within Irish Rail

FlameoftheWest

It says in Ken Griffin's superb Tribune expose that the Irish Taxpayers subsidy with this UK charity is now on every year? Who decided this was now part and parcel of Irish Rail tradition? And has anyone notice the trend of these events is stepping up the public spend on this Trainspotter social welfare event year after year?

They have gone from putting old coaches and locos on a scheduled Sligo run for these tourists, to now refubishing an entire rake of Mrk3's which the Irish tax paying serfs are not allowed to contaminate. It's beggars belief.

One has to wonder at what point Irish Rail will be relaying and reopening closed routes for the visiting trainspotters next? Will the West Cork be reopened for a Railway Children's special and closed the next day so commuters can't use it? WTF!

It's just gone nuts really. Management and Unions at Irish Rail are completely out of control. There was a time when if you want to type their name in an ironic manner one would put quotation on the word Rail as in Irish "Rail" - well let me update this by adding some more quoations to "upgrade", if you will the irony.

"Irish" "Rail"

Enough already. Get the roll of wallpaper and start writing down the names of who is to be sacked and get this clowns away from out national rail network before the destory it completely or end up running it only 1 day a year for the Railway Children crowd.

Thinkingaboutit

In fairness Railway Children does operate worldwide, but Irish Rail's first task is to carry paying passengers efficiently, which it hasn't been doing.

Stonewolf

Step 1: Set up new companies

Dublin/Cork/Galway/Wherever Transit
To include Bus (owned or franchised), Heavy Rail franchising, Light Rail infrastructure and franchising for their area. Services planned and operated in an integrated manner.
Irish Transnational
To include Bus (owned and/or franchised) and passenger services over Heavy Rail (either as TOC or franchiser or both) on extra-urban routes in an integrated manner
Irish Rail Freight
A TOC for freight operations on Heavy Rail
GSR
State-owned rail infrastructure owner/provider with a mechanism for operators to request and help fund new works and the ability to levy usage charges. This body would also facilitate the linking of private lines and stations.

Step 2: Hire staff for new companies with no preference given to employees of old companies.
Step 3: Employees of new companies cease employment with old companies, begin employment with new companies. All remaining employees of old companies are made redundant.
Step 4: All assets of old companies transferred to new companies according to area of competency, old companies would up.
Step5: New companies begin operating

Steps 3 to 5 would be pretty much simultaneous happening at some significant time like 00:00:01 01/01/2011

FlameoftheWest

Stonewolf wrote: »

Step 1: Set up new companies

Dublin/Cork/Galway/Wherever Transit
To include Bus (owned or franchised), Heavy Rail franchising, Light Rail infrastructure and franchising for their area. Services planned and operated in an integrated manner.
Irish Transnational
To include Bus (owned and/or franchised) and passenger services over Heavy Rail (either as TOC or franchiser or both) on extra-urban routes in an integrated manner
Irish Rail Freight
A TOC for freight operations on Heavy Rail
GSR
State-owned rail infrastructure owner/provider with a mechanism for operators to request and help fund new works and the ability to levy usage charges. This body would also facilitate the linking of private lines and stations.

Step 2: Hire staff for new companies with no preference given to employees of old companies.
Step 3: Employees of new companies cease employment with old companies, begin employment with new companies. All remaining employees of old companies are made redundant.
Step 4: All assets of old companies transferred to new companies according to area of competency, old companies would up.
Step5: New companies begin operating

Steps 3 to 5 would be pretty much simultaneous happening at some significant time like 00:00:01 01/01/2011

I would agree with this completely. Add to this a statutory public transport users body who would have elected members who sit in on all board meetings of this groups.

No more secrecy. No more mystery as to how CIE spend our money. No more special favours like the Mk3 on the WRC at tax payers expense for the trainspotters. In fact I would completely ban all heritage groups from ever running any kind of train on the network. Instead open a few miles of an old line and let ALL the heritage groups run their trains there - south Wex would be the obvious choice now. But never on the main network.

It all has to end now.

Transportuser09

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

They have gone from putting old coaches and locos on a scheduled Sligo run for these tourists,

Although that was the plan originally, they didn't put an old loco and coaches on a scheduled Sligo service - it was run as a special.

FlameoftheWest

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Although that was the plan originally, they didn't put an old loco and coaches on a scheduled Sligo service - it was run as a special.

Good. Sounds like the Irish Taxpayers and Commuters won that round.

Hopefully the Tribune Article will lead to the cancellation of the WRC Mk3 farce.

Transportuser09

Just remember the fact that the mk3s so far do not appear to returning to regular service is an Irish Rail issue - it is NOT the fault of charities, heritage groups, train spotters or rail enthusiasts. In fact, I'd guess that many train spotters and rail enthusiasts would prefer the older mk3/loco hauled stock to be in regular service.

Transportuser09

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

In fact I would completely ban all heritage groups from ever running any kind of train on the network. Instead open a few miles of an old line and let ALL the heritage groups run their trains there - south Wex would be the obvious choice now. But never on the main network.

It all has to end now.

As long as the heritage runs are not run to the detriment of others, I don't see the problem with them. In fact, to an extent they promote travel by rail to people who might not otherwise consider it.

The WRC tour is not running to the detriment of other services, if anything it might increase the chance of a mk3 set returning to regular service if one is passed for running. Okay, so it probably isn't going to happen, but it certainly isn't decreasing the chances either.

lord lucan

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Just remember the fact that the mk3s so far do not appear to returning to regular service is an Irish Rail issue - it is NOT the fault of charities, heritage groups, train spotters or rail enthusiasts. In fact, I'd guess that many train spotters and rail enthusiasts would prefer the older mk3/loco hauled stock to be in regular service.

As far as i know a group of train enthusiasts didn't get together and pressure IE into running a rake of MKIII's down the WRC. It was an IE idea with the IRRS acting as ticketing agents for it.

And yes,most rail enthusiasts would prefer a loco and MKIII's in regular service. IMO they're the best coaching stock to ever run in this country,the ride quality is excellent and a refurb of the interiors would've done wonders for them.

For the record,i'm travelling on that spin down the WRC on the 24th.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Although that was the plan originally, they didn't put an old loco and coaches on a scheduled Sligo service - it was run as a special.

Only after intervention. Then they used an excuse to justify the change in plan, which was baloney, in an attempt to cover up the original idea which was an insult to rail customers.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

Only after intervention. Then they used an excuse to justify the change in plan, which was baloney, in an attempt to cover up the original idea which was an insult to rail customers.

Insult...maybe, maybe not. From memory the Craven carriages were as comfortable as mk2s - it was July so heating wouldn't have been as issue. Actually now that I think about it I'm not even sure if originally they planned to use Cravens on the service train, I think was just a loco change with the regular mk2s. As for the locos, well, I don't think the majority of regular customers would care as long as they got there on time. Now if they were to replace it with a single car 2700, yeah, I can see the problem...but given that occasionally Cravens subbed on mk2 links and 121/141/181s on 071/201 links I don't think it would have been that big an insult.

DWCommuter

Despite the debate elsewhere in relation to UK trainspotters, this tour (like the Sligo tour) has been instigated by UK based enthusiasts. The Railway Children charity has benefitted from many similar tours in the UK.

Now lets be realistic here. Any Irish Rail tour thats being run (for charity) should benefit an Irish Charity. This particular charity doesn't even have a registered office in Ireland for christs sake.

I have no doubt that this tour and charity farce is UK based and it lends more weight to FOTWs argument in another thread than any defense offered. For the record, the influence of UK based enthusiasts has had a bigger impact on the development of rail transport in Ireland than many realise. Those not prepared to accept that, have obviously failed to take note of developments over the last 8 years.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

Now lets be realistic here. Any Irish Rail tour thats being run (for charity) should benefit an Irish Charity. This particular charity doesn't even have a registered office in Ireland for christs sake.

I have no doubt that this tour and charity farce is UK based and it lends more weight to FOTWs argument in another thread than any defense offered. For the record, the influence of UK based enthusiasts has had a bigger impact on the development of rail transport in Ireland than many realise. Those not prepared to accept that, have obviously failed to take note of developments over the last 8 years.

Have any Irish charities come to IÉ for such a run? If they were to turn down a local charity I can see you're point, but I've seen no evidence to suggest that is the case. I wouldn't begrudge a charity that helps homeless children the chance to make a few bob.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

For the record, the influence of UK based enthusiasts has had a bigger impact on the development of rail transport in Ireland than many realise. Those not prepared to accept that, have obviously failed to take note of developments over the last 8 years.

You seem like a reasonable enough poster, would you mind explaining how so have UK enthusiasts had an influence on Irish rail transport? The majority of rail enthusiasts would be very much in favour of loco hauled trains, semaphore signalling and the like, so if they really had any influence you'd imagine they would have tried to keep these trains instead of introducing new DMUs.

The way I see it new management brought in from outside Ireland has revolutionised the way the railway operates and dragged it up to speed with that of other countries, new railcars, signalling, etc...

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Insult...maybe, maybe not. From memory the Craven carriages were as comfortable as mk2s - it was July so heating wouldn't have been as issue. Actually now that I think about it I'm not even sure if originally they planned to use Cravens on the service train, I think was just a loco change with the regular mk2s. As for the locos, well, I don't think the majority of regular customers would care as long as they got there on time. Now if they were to replace it with a single car 2700, yeah, I can see the problem...but given that occasionally Cravens subbed on mk2 links and 121/141/181s on 071/201 links I don't think it would have been that big an insult.

You and I are on different planets. I see the error, you don't and never will.

Cravens were on the special. The original plan was to use the older locos for the trip on the normal MK2 set thereby mixing an enthusiasts day out with regular passengers. You actually think thats okay?

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

You and I are on different planets. I see the error, you don't and never will.

Cravens were on the special. The original plan was to use the older locos for the trip on the normal MK2 set thereby mixing an enthusiasts day out with regular passengers. You actually think thats okay?

As long as

(a). There is room all passengers (the addition of extra carriages if needed)
(b). The older locos can get me there in the same time as the normal one
(c). The older locos are in good working order (at the time they were)

then yeah I don't see the problem really.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Have any Irish charities come to IÉ for such a run? If they were to turn down a local charity I can see you're point, but I've seen no evidence to suggest that is the case. I wouldn't begrudge a charity that helps homeless children the chance to make a few bob.

You are missing the point and using the cause as a weapon. This trip was organised by a UK based person that knew Dick Fearn. The latest trip has the same connection. In all my years involved in Irish Railways, this "charity" set up is unprecedented. My wife works in fundraising. I'll suggest she tries to put on a trip for charity and get back to you with the results. Expect your argument to be torn asunder.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

You seem like a reasonable enough poster, would you mind explaining how so have UK enthusiasts had an influence on Irish rail transport? The majority of rail enthusiasts would be very much in favour of loco hauled trains, semaphore signalling and the like, so if they really had any influence you'd imagine they would have tried to keep these trains instead of introducing new DMUs.

The way I see it new management brought in from outside Ireland has revolutionised the way the railway operates and dragged it up to speed with that of other countries, new railcars, signalling, etc...

You can find out in my forthcoming book.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

As long as

(a). There is room all passengers (the addition of extra carriages if needed)
(b). The older locos can get me there in the same time as the normal one
(c). The older locos are in good working order (at the time they were)

then yeah I don't see the problem really.

As I said..."different planets". The fact that you even try to defend it, is alien to me. If it was such an okay thing to do ask yourself why, after intervention, the idea was pulled. Now really think about it in terms of this modern railway that supposed to be rolled out.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

You can find out in my forthcoming book.

I look foward to reading it, but really if you're going to infer and accuse on a public board you should be prepared to back up your argument. I understand that there are certain things that can't be put on a public message board but in that case maybe its best not to mention it all.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

As I said..."different planets". The fact that you even try to defend it, is alien to me. If it was such an okay thing to do ask yourself why, after intervention, the idea was pulled. Now really think about it in terms of this modern railway that supposed to be rolled out.

At the time I don't see how it hampered the provision of a modern railway. It was a one off event. Most passengers probably wouldn't notice the difference if a 121 or 071 was hauling their train.

I really don't understand the begrudgery to be found on this board at times...

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

At the time I don't see how it hampered the provision of a modern railway. It was a one off event. Most passengers probably wouldn't notice the difference if a 121 or 071 was hauling their train.

I really don't understand the begrudgery to be found on this board at times...

Its only begrudgery if you perceive it to be that. My stance is that no scheduled passenger train on any railway should be compromised by an enthusiasts day out. A railway has a remit and purpose. If enthusiasts want a day out, let them charter a train. Preferably one that doesn't cost the tax payer any money and isn't run under the pretence of a charity that has no connection with the country whatsoever.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I look foward to reading it, but really if you're going to infer and accuse on a public board you should be prepared to back up your argument. I understand that there are certain things that can't be put on a public message board but in that case maybe its best not to mention it all.

But you see, I have no problem backing up anything I say. I have merely agreed with a certain point about UK based enthusiasts attempting to influence the development of rail transport in Ireland. If you knew your stuff, then you wouldn't question it, because the evidence is available all over the internet and in printed media. But I witnessed it first hand.

Im lucky enough to be in a position whereby I can relate this information in a book, so anything I say here is said without any regret and on the basis that I can verify it at the appropriate time.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

Its only begrudgery if you perceive it to be that. My stance is that no scheduled passenger train on any railway should be compromised by an enthusiasts day out. A railway has a remit and purpose. If enthusiasts want a day out, let them charter a train. Preferably one that doesn't cost the tax payer any money and isn't run under the pretence of a charity that has no connection with the country whatsoever.

I see where you are coming from, but unless the standard of service offered is significantly reduced, I fail to see it as compromising a service.
I've commuted for many years with the various CIÉ companies, on occasion there have been times when the service is worked by an older bus/train than the regular one. And as long as its comfortable and gets me to my location safely and on time it never bothers me. So I respectfully disagree.

KC61

DWCommuter wrote: »

You are missing the point and using the cause as a weapon. This trip was organised by a UK based person that knew Dick Fearn. The latest trip has the same connection. In all my years involved in Irish Railways, this "charity" set up is unprecedented. My wife works in fundraising. I'll suggest she tries to put on a trip for charity and get back to you with the results. Expect your argument to be torn asunder.

I'm not sure about that. My understanding is that this tour is entirely the idea of the Heritage Department of Iarnrod Eireann.

There is a fundamental difference between this tour and the last one. The last one was using locomotives and rolling stock that were fully operational members of the fleet. Therefore they could notionally operate any timetabled service.

My problem with the forthcoming tour is that it is using stock notionally out of service, while there are other services being cancelled due to lack of rolling stock. The 1530 Heuston-Galway/Westport normally splits in Athlone, half continuing to Westport and half to Galway. But due to the heavy loadings for Mayo on Fridays, the whole train now continues direct to Westport, while Galway passengers are bussed from Athlone to Galway. This is farcical.

I cannot understand why two Mark 3 sets are not being used as backup at Heuston until the next sets of 22000s are delivered in 2011 thus freeing up a full six piece 22000 set for normal service and reducing the pressure on fleet availability.

HeritageRailway

KC61 wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. My understanding is that this tour is entirely the idea of the Heritage Department of Iarnrod Eireann.

There is a fundamental difference between this tour and the last one. The last one was using locomotives and rolling stock that were fully operational members of the fleet. Therefore they could notionally operate any timetabled service.

This was the case as understood here.

The trip was to mark the last mainline passenger run of the 121 Class locomotive and was planned to be a scheduled service with the then conventional Mark 2 stock departing at 8:30 and 13:25 respectively, the respective ticket monies to be donated to the Railway Children Charity. The trip was massively oversubscribed from the off set so the decision was made in late June to pair 124/134 with a set of Craven Coaches to run as a special with a 071 taking on the timetabled departure with the Mark 2's.

For the record, both sets were full on the day and the ticket prices levied on the day were normal ticket rates (€29 day return).

The tour in 2 weeks is involving one set of Mark 3 coaches that have been kept in operational condition. There were 3 sets to held onto for working relief duties for Dublin-Cork services and an anticipated expansion of Enterprise sets but it has been found that a combination of exchequer cuts and operational flexibility of 22000 sets has seen to it that they remain out of service for now. The set that is earmarked for the Special has undergone a heavy valeting and will be held onto pending any other charter/special duties for the time being; however there isn't anything in the short term for them to work.

KC61

HeritageRailway wrote: »

The set that is earmarked for the Special has undergone a heavy valeting and will be held onto pending any other charter/special duties for the time being; however there isn't anything in the short term for them to work.

I would fundamentally disagree with that.

It should be used as a backup set for the Dublin/Cork services and thus release the 6 car 22K that is kept for that purpose at Heuston.

This could then be used to perhaps free up 2 x 3 cars to be used where they are needed.

steamengine

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

I would agree with this completely. Add to this a statutory public transport users body who would have elected members who sit in on all board meetings of this groups.

No more secrecy. No more mystery as to how CIE spend our money. No more special favours like the Mk3 on the WRC at tax payers expense for the trainspotters. In fact I would completely ban all heritage groups from ever running any kind of train on the network. Instead open a few miles of an old line and let ALL the heritage groups run their trains there - south Wex would be the obvious choice now. But never on the main network.

It all has to end now.

Thankfully the likes of you don't rule the roost regarding heritage railways in Ireland or elsewhere. Mainline steam heritage tours are in the ascendant in the UK and are clearly being run in the 'black', otherwise they would be non-existent. There is a potential worthwhile tourist opportunity here for those who have the vision to see it.

Of course we are aware by now of your extensive 'NO - NO' railway list - WRC, trainspotters, old age pensioners, heritage railways etc. Pity really as one tires listening to the constant negativity laced with your uncharitable brand of satire !

Stonewolf

Thankfully the likes of you don't rule the roost regarding heritage railways in Ireland or elsewhere.

I'd like to point out as the author of the post he was replying in support of that I do not subscribe to his negative view of heritage groups. I'd actually envision reformed transport operations providing for heritage services where they don't interfere with normal services (something like in the UK where a heritage group with access to a mainline certified locomotive can operate as a TOC). I'd actually like to flesh out my proposal somewhere but I don't think C&T is the appropriate forum as it's all hypothetical.

FlameoftheWest

This and the other thread just validates that the trainspotters would gladly see the entire network shut down as long as a few locomotive trips to the seaside on old trains were still around.

Everything else is non-issue. That's why you are not concerned that much with the South Wexford line. No freight on it. Simple as that.

Some of us actually care about the rail network as something more than a living museum.

steamengine

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

This and the other thread just validates that the trainspotters would gladly see the entire network shut down as long as a few locomotive trips to the seaside on old trains were still around.

Everything else is non-issue. That's why you are not concerned that much with the South Wexford line. No freight on it. Simple as that.

Some of us actually care about the rail network as something more than a living museum.

Totally incorrect, The 'everything else' is the No. 1 issue - if Beeching/Andrews had never taken place, and the present Mark 2 version of it, we wouldn't be having this discussion. I was around at the time and I remember the desecration. I'm totally against the shutting down of any portion of the network, as I think its totally short sighted, and not in the long term interest of the economy. In the case of South Wexford it connects a sea port to the network - enough said as to why it should be kept open, apart from the Waterford/Wexford link.

But, it appears that the constant 'slagging off' of a certain section of railway enthusiasts is uncalled for, because first and foremost they are in the main, totally pro all types of railways. Also it would appear that preservation societies can actually run trains at a profit.

Agreed, reform is needed and also charity should begin at home - I've no problem with those concepts at all.

Judgement Day

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Just remember the fact that the mk3s so far do not appear to returning to regular service is an Irish Rail issue - it is NOT the fault of charities, heritage groups, train spotters or rail enthusiasts. In fact, I'd guess that many train spotters and rail enthusiasts would prefer the older mk3/loco hauled stock to be in regular service.

Not forgetting the Cravens! The RPSI set should be compulsorily repurchased and put into service on the Dublin/Cork without delay.

HeritageRailway

KC61 wrote: »

I would fundamentally disagree with that.

It should be used as a backup set for the Dublin/Cork services and thus release the 6 car 22K that is kept for that purpose at Heuston.

This could then be used to perhaps free up 2 x 3 cars to be used where they are needed.

Somewhat OT but interesting nonetheless. I see where you are coming from and agree with you that it is possible to have a Mark 3 set ready but the 22000 set prove flexible and practical for other reasons. Having a spare set means it is free to cover failed 22000 sets that may be out of action over the day at short notice. So long as Mark 3 sets were used to cover the working, it also required the use of a station pilot in Heuston and Cork to either release or turn the loco, something a railcar or push pull unit obviously doesn't require. A 22000 set is also easier on fuel and less costly to staff so it has it's benefits at that end and internally more pleasing than a Mark 3.

Truth be known, most of the mid morning services would suffice with a 3 car set but sin scéal eíle.

dowlingm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8428097.stm

Steam train's snow rescue 'glory'

Passengers were rescued by a steam locomotive after modern rail services were brought to a halt by the snowy conditions in south-east England.

Trains between Ashford and Dover were suspended on Monday when cold weather disabled the electric rail.

Some commuters at London Victoria faced lengthy delays until Tornado - Britain's first mainline steam engine in 50 years - offered them a lift.

They were taken home "in style", said the Darlington-built engine's owners.

Train services in Kent were hit hard by the freezing conditions at the start of the week.

The weather-related disruption included three days of cancellations for Eurostar services through the Channel Tunnel.

Tornado, a £3m Peppercorn class A1 Pacific based at the National Railway Museum in York, was in the South East for one day, offering "Christmas meal" trips from London to Dover.

Its "Cathedrals Express" service, the last mainline journey in its first year of operations, was about to depart when staff heard about the stranded passengers.

About 100 people were offered free seats, according to Mark Allatt, chairman of The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust - the charity which built Tornado.

'All credit'

He said: "It was a nice way to finish for Christmas, though I think some of the rescued passengers didn't realise they'd even been travelling on a steam train until they got off."

Mr Allatt, who was on the service at the time, said he only saw a handful of other trains between London and Dover throughout Monday.

He added: "If any of the train operators want to modernise their services by using steam trains, I would be happy to give them a quote."

A spokesman for Southeastern Trains congratulated Mr Allatt on his "moment of glory".

He said: "I'm sure those passengers were saved from a lengthy wait, all credit to him."

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

But you see, I have no problem backing up anything I say. I have merely agreed with a certain point about UK based enthusiasts attempting to influence the development of rail transport in Ireland. If you knew your stuff, then you wouldn't question it, because the evidence is available all over the internet and in printed media. But I witnessed it first hand.

But you haven't; you have yet to provide example of how UK based enthusiasts have influenced rail in Ireland. All you've done is given a cyptic answer stating that it will be in your forthcoming book.

dowlingm

HeritageRailway wrote: »

So long as Mark 3 sets were used to cover the working, it also required the use of a station pilot in Heuston and Cork to either release or turn the loco, something a railcar or push pull unit obviously doesn't require.

Did NIR ever get around to PPing the 111s for the Gatwick set before they gave up on the DBSO? IE could have stuck those on the end of a PP set and loaned NIR a couple of the 201s Dick and Co. are allegedly trying to flog to haul the Gatwicks and ballast trains. No aircon of course but would that be the end of the world?

Transportuser09

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

This and the other thread just validates that the trainspotters would gladly see the entire network shut down as long as a few locomotive trips to the seaside on old trains were still around.

Eh, no, it does not. My posts where merely in response to DWCommuter's claim that the switching of locos on a service train was an 'insult' to passengers. I was stating that it was really not a huge insult as long as the quality of service was not distrupted. As it turned out, and as heritagerailway states, the trip was oversubscribed and the operation of a special proved more suitable. I am not saying that evrything should be changed to suit trainspotters or rail enthusiasts. I was simply stating that on this occasion the proposed loco swap might not have been as big an insult to passengers as DWCommuter claimed it would be. And I'm speaking as a commuter here.

FlameoftheWest wrote: »

Everything else is non-issue. That's why you are not concerned that much with the South Wexford line. No freight on it. Simple as that.

Some of us actually care about the rail network as something more than a living museum.

If you are referring to me dude I am indeed concerned about the South Wexford line. If you look through that thread you will find so. It is one particular area of IÉ that I would be quite critical of. So in future I suggest you research before making statements like that. In fact, even IRN, which you despise so much, has plenty of what you would call 'trainspotters' speaking against it.

I don't know why you're bringing freight into it; I suppose I am pro-rail freight from an environmental aspect but my main experience of rail is that of a commuter so I don't really post much on the freight end of things.

HeritageRailway

dowlingm wrote: »

Did NIR ever get around to PPing the 111s for the Gatwick set before they gave up on the DBSO? IE could have stuck those on the end of a PP set and loaned NIR a couple of the 201s Dick and Co. are allegedly trying to flog to haul the Gatwicks and ballast trains. No aircon of course but would that be the end of the world?

They received the driving cab in 2009, about a year late. The Gatwick's are currently withdrawn and out of service so this cab was not ever used! Given NIR's current tendering for more railcars, they may see one more final hurrah before they finally are retired and scrapped.

There are no plans to sell any locos; if there was NIR have very little need for their 111 class as it is except for a rare PW train so they are unlikely to buy.

Transportuser09

KC61 wrote: »

I'm not sure about that. My understanding is that this tour is entirely the idea of the Heritage Department of Iarnrod Eireann.

There is a fundamental difference between this tour and the last one. The last one was using locomotives and rolling stock that were fully operational members of the fleet. Therefore they could notionally operate any timetabled service.

My problem with the forthcoming tour is that it is using stock notionally out of service, while there are other services being cancelled due to lack of rolling stock. The 1530 Heuston-Galway/Westport normally splits in Athlone, half continuing to Westport and half to Galway. But due to the heavy loadings for Mayo on Fridays, the whole train now continues direct to Westport, while Galway passengers are bussed from Athlone to Galway. This is farcical.

I cannot understand why two Mark 3 sets are not being used as backup at Heuston until the next sets of 22000s are delivered in 2011 thus freeing up a full six piece 22000 set for normal service and reducing the pressure on fleet availability.

Thats an excellent point. Until the delievery of extra 22000 sets it would make sense to keep a mk3 set in service, perhaps spare in the week and working a service on Friday. Ideally this should be a push-pull set. It would use resources to keep it operational though. However, it would presumably be only for 2 or 3 years. One can see the logic of keeping the WRC mk3 set for this after the run, although as heritagerailway points out you would require a pilot loco at Heuston for this. Its a bit of a mess alright.

DWCommuter

Transportuser09 wrote: »

But you haven't; you have yet to provide example of how UK based enthusiasts have influenced rail in Ireland. All you've done is given a cyptic answer stating that it will be in your forthcoming book.

Nothing cryptic about it. I agree with the original point and I'll discuss it where I feel its appropriate. You can continue to berate me for not discussing it here if you wish.

Transportuser09

DWCommuter wrote: »

Nothing cryptic about it. I agree with the original point and I'll discuss it where I feel its appropriate. You can continue to berate me for not discussing it here if you wish.

I don't want to berate you, its just I don't see why people will make statements like that on a public forum and then not explain what they mean by them, all it does is serve as a plug for this book of yours.

csd

DWCommuter wrote: »

Nothing cryptic about it. I agree with the original point and I'll discuss it where I feel its appropriate. You can continue to berate me for not discussing it here if you wish.

Here we go with this again!

I only have one question, which I asked before and you didn't answer. Where is all the evidence that the UK Trainspotters have had an influence on Irish railway policy? Sure they may have tried, but where have they been effective?

As I said before (the last time this argument surfaced), as far as I can see, we have the railway that the SRR and IE: The Way Forward argued for. Those documents were written by expensive consultants, not trainspotters.

There is no rail freight (at least none of any volume worth talking about). There is no loco haulage outside Dublin - Cork and Dublin - Belfast. All the main lines have had mechanical signalling replaced by some form of CTC. Diesel tours were banned for over a year at one point. Where O where is the hand of the trainspotter in any of this? I honestly can't see how you can say that the evidence is there for all to see!

If anything, I hope this piece will highlight the fact that perfectly serviceable stock is lying empty while trains are overcrowded. The sight of an 'orange' train on the WRC might provide a bit of pressure to get a few train sets back into service and sort out the Waterford and Athlone/Galway/Westport messes.

I fear though that the tour will end up getting cancelled in an attempt to appease the begrudgers and bury the whole Mk 3 debacle once and for all.

/csd

KC61

HeritageRailway wrote: »

Somewhat OT but interesting nonetheless. I see where you are coming from and agree with you that it is possible to have a Mark 3 set ready but the 22000 set prove flexible and practical for other reasons. Having a spare set means it is free to cover failed 22000 sets that may be out of action over the day at short notice. So long as Mark 3 sets were used to cover the working, it also required the use of a station pilot in Heuston and Cork to either release or turn the loco, something a railcar or push pull unit obviously doesn't require. A 22000 set is also easier on fuel and less costly to staff so it has it's benefits at that end and internally more pleasing than a Mark 3.

Truth be known, most of the mid morning services would suffice with a 3 car set but sin scéal eíle.

This point is completely on topic. The train is being refurbished for the charity run. My point is that it should be retained for operational service to free up capacity needed elsewhere.

As for the shunting - the Heuston/Inchicore "taxi" locomotive could do the shunt release at Heuston. No issue there.

A 22K can usually be switched from one train to another to cover services in the event of a failure, but the primary use of the spare set is for Dublin/Cork.

Whatever about the asthetics, we have a situation currently where one day per week Dublin/Galway passengers are having to take a bus because the train is cancelled due to lack of rolling stock, and other trains on the Mayo route are severely overcrowded with either the Manulla/Ballina train having to operate to Athlone or a bus being organised.

Management should swallow their pride and accept that the set is needed especially given that they are one 22K set down at the moment.

KC61

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Thats an excellent point. Until the delievery of extra 22000 sets it would make sense to keep a mk3 set in service, perhaps spare in the week and working a service on Friday. Ideally this should be a push-pull set. It would use resources to keep it operational though. However, it would presumably be only for 2 or 3 years. One can see the logic of keeping the WRC mk3 set for this after the run, although as heritagerailway points out you would require a pilot loco at Heuston for this. Its a bit of a mess alright.

Exactly my point, except that the push/pull stock is in "rag order" and would require major overhauls to be brought back to operational standard. They are also only capable of 75mph when being pushed.

Far better to have two sets of standard 100mph capable Mark 3s restored to operational capability.

Transportuser09

KC61 wrote: »

Exactly my point, except that the push/pull stock is in "rag order" and would require major overhauls to be brought back to operational standard. They are also only capable of 75mph when being pushed.

Far better to have two sets of standard 100mph capable Mark 3s restored to operational capability.

I see what you mean. Maybe the pilot situation could be got around with the use of the 'taxi' locomotive. There would still be costs associated with keeping the sets certified for use, but if it was only for a few years rather than indefinetly this mightn't be so bad.

GM071class

I don't know why people think there'd be an issue arrising from the Shunt in Heuston.
The Locomotive coming from Inchicore could simply take the set from the siding, and reverse it back into the platform. There's no need for a pilot locomotive, and no need for a run around.

I have to agree with many on this thread, coming back to the original topic, I don't believe that regular passengers should EVER be affected by 'us' railway enthusiasts.

Most of the 'spotters' very rarely travel by Train, and mostly only on specials when they do.
However, they seem to think that our railway should be to suit them - Bo!!ox!

I love Irish Railways, I always have, But I also travel (as a regular passenger) on them.
I wouldn't be happy if my train was late leaving every station because people wanted their photo's, No problem with that on a special charter though.

That said I agree with KC61 (tis' lovely to hear some sense being made) They should be using MK.3's as relief, instead they're sitting in yards.....

csd

GM071class wrote: »

I don't know why people think there'd be an issue arrising from the Shunt in Heuston.
The Locomotive coming from Inchicore could simply take the set from the siding, and reverse it back into the platform. There's no need for a pilot locomotive, and no need for a run around.

So what happens when the train reaches its destination? How is the loco released from the bufferstops? You need some form of pilot/shunter to perform the release.

I have to agree with many on this thread, coming back to the original topic, I don't believe that regular passengers should EVER be affected by 'us' railway enthusiasts.

Of course, but when has this happened in practice?

Look, all this rubbish about trainspotters (UK or otherwise) is a distraction from the very real issues facing the railway. I travel Dublin - Cork a couple of times a month, and it's far more important to me that they fix the ride quality and get the speed up so the travel time becomes competitive again. When the last bit of the M8 opens in the next month or two I'll be able to get door-to-door in 2h20. The train/taxi combo takes 4h, negating much of the ability to get some work done while on-board.

Thankfully, I'm not affected by the overcrowding that seems to be a problem on some lines, but this sounds like another important issue to be resolved. Bringing a Mk 3 set or two into service again sounds like a great way of doing this. One-off charters and specials are, for the most part, irrelevant to any of this, so I can't see why the usual suspects get so worked up about it. Concentrate on the real issues here and don't be distracted by trying to get a dig in at so-called trainspotters. If anything, we should be happy that this special is taking place, as it proves that the stock is still useful and could be put towards solving some of the overcrowding problems!

/csd

KC61

csd wrote: »

So what happens when the train reaches its destination? How is the loco released from the bufferstops? You need some form of pilot/shunter to perform the release.

If it's used on Dublin/Cork - then there are no buffers - it is just uncoupled and runs around the train. Same is possible at Galway, Waterford, Westport.

GM071class

csd wrote: »

So what happens when the train reaches its destination? How is the loco released from the bufferstops? You need some form of pilot/shunter to perform the release.

/csd

The Locomotive pushed back from the Buffers, normally there are passing loops at Terminus Stations, so it run's round its train, and backs into the platform.
This has always been done until recently, it seems though that IÉ have forgotten how to run a railway using Locomotives.... (I could show Dicky Feran with my Irish Railway Models if that'd help, although he might have a stroke when he see's all that orange n' black)

This definitely isn't a problem upon arrival in Heuston as there is always a Pilot (or two) in Inchicore at any given time.

Transportuser09

I would be absolutely against the railway being changed to suit enthusiasts or spotters - photo stops on a service train would be a big no no. I just meant as a commuter if the change is something as minor as the loco being swapped by a pair that can still do the same job in the same time as the booked one I wouldn't mind as long as the service ran as planned. I just thought that DW Commuter's comments that it was an 'insult' were a bit hyperbolic.

csd

Great, if we can assume Heuston is taken care of by the taxi loco, and the other locations aren't a problem then let's campaign to get the Mk 3s back in service!

Out of curiosity, where would there be a problem with this? Limerick, Connolly... anywhere else?

/csd