Irish Provinces have an unfair advantage over GP Sides

2040

I'm sick of hearing this:

And so the Heineken Cup has become an exclusive French-Irish affair. 'Tis probably a fair reflection of Europe's current balance of power.


Indeed, the exit of the Saints and the Ospreys marked the passing of the game in England and Wales - or so you would believe from the obituaries churned out by the Sunday papers and the crowing Irish denizens of cyberspace.


But is that entirely fair?


Sure, Welsh and English clubs have under-performed, of that there is no doubt. But are we comparing like for like?


The cream of Irish rugby is roughly divided between two sides. For Munster and Leinster, read Ireland Probables and Ireland Possibles.


The Welsh have a more even distribution across the nation's four elite sides. Moreover, there are fewer than 50,000 registered players in Wales. Ireland has over 150,000.


England's 12-way dilution is tempered by foreign imports, but it is still a factor. Sure, the French are in the same position in terms of sheer numbers, but the lack of a salary cap means that their top five or six sides can happily pepper their benches with seasoned internationals.


The same cushy deal isolates the same five or six French sides from the threat of relegation, and that's an issue that envelopes all 12 Guinness Premiership clubs during the early stages of the season, and a fear that dicates priorities.


Conversely, the likes of Munster can sleepwalk through the Magners League and come out smelling like roses.


Just look at the difference between the Munster that lost to Leinster at Thomond Park on April 2 and the Munster that beat the Saints at Thomond Park on April 10. It verges on the laughable.


With eyes for just one competition, the only surprise is that they don't win the Heineken Cup every year.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_6087573,00.html

danthefan

I see they haven't mentioned the fact England have over 1,000,000 registered players.

Just look at the difference between the Munster that lost to Leinster at Thomond Park on April 2 and the Munster that beat the Saints at Thomond Park on April 10. It verges on the laughable.

I would love some explanation for this comment also. Team selection? One player in the difference, Earls. Intensity? The players afterward were all saying it was right up there. I know, maybe Leinster are just better than Northampton? UNFAIR I SAY.

2040

danthefan wrote: »

I see they haven't mentioned the fact England have over 1,000,000 registered players.



I would love some explanation for this comment also. Team selection? One player in the difference, Earls. Intensity? The players afterward were all saying it was right up there. I know, maybe Leinster are just better than Northampton? UNFAIR I SAY.

I don't think they actually know what they're trying to say there. That the same effort doesn't go into ML games? Maybe, but not in Leinster/Munster games.

I was actually thinking about this red herring that rears its head every time English rugby does badly in Europe, and then lo and behold, planetrugby start the whinge again. I think Toby Booth said something about this before. It might have been someone else.

efb

I hear that Chestnut the whole time. If the opposite were the case, they'd cite lack of competitive matches as the excuse.

corny

Not even worth rebutting. Someone with a chip on their shoulder.

durkadurka

We have 3 good provinces, not 2. Conn people would disagree!
Munster and Leinster can sleep walk through the magners and still win it because the welsh and scots are so bad. That's their problem. They are welcome to copy everything we do.
England's terrible structure is also their fault. They are big enough to support a league of that size but they do it all wrong.
The fact is we have a great structure, great support and a great batch of players. Recipe for success.

thomond2006

Isn't Planet Rugby owned by Sky Sports?

It's Sky Sports' agenda to hype the Guinness Premiership/English rugby so that article is just baseless propaganda.

:rolleyes:

themont85

150,000 players is a laughable figure.

Did this writer even watch the Leinster versus Munster game let alone know the team sheets.

It is laughable that a country such as England with the ridiculous resources they have are below ourselves and Wales for over 5 years now (Don't give me the RWC 2007 final argument, two good wins isn't the basis for consistancy).

The line "Sure, the French are in the same position in terms of sheer numbers, but the lack of a salary cap means that their top five or six sides can happily pepper their benches with seasoned internationals" is hilarious. Just look at the Toulouse team that ripped Stade (with many imports) apart today, the vast vast majority are French. True they are seasoned internationals but mostly French! Tolouse, Leinster and Munster have plenty of internationals and quality players because they know what they are doing. Just like Leicester Tigers in the early 00s.

sock puppet

The way that article is written you'd swear that Leinster and Munster sucked up talent from across the island, despite the fact that the vast majority of Leinster and Munster's players come from within their own provinces.

As for the GP, relegation is only a serious threat now because many of the old top sides, such as Sale, Gloucester and Wasps are much poorer now.

danthefan

The IRFU annual report says there were less than 25k adult players in Ireland in 2009, with just over 50k age grade players. Age grade includes schools and clubs.

davidpfitz

150,000?! So, I'm expected to believe that one out of every 25 or 30 people (people, not even males!) are professional rugby players?

Seriously, how many full-time professionals do Ireland really have? It must be more like 200, tops.

Chucky the tree

While his uses the worst points possible I still agree with the principle argument. Irish teams have a huge advantage over GP/top 14.

davidpfitz

Chucky the tree wrote: »

While his uses the worst points possible I still agree with the principle argument. Irish teams have a huge advantage over GP/top 14.

How, exactly? Because we're better? Or, that the GP hamper themselves because they import too many players? They need to come up to our level, not us down to theirs.

LeeroyJones

Chucky the tree wrote: »

While his uses the worst points possible I still agree with the principle argument. Irish teams have a huge advantage over GP/top 14.

Would you care to venture a point or 2 on that?

theKramer

2040 wrote: »

I think Toby Booth said something about this before. It might have been someone else.

That was after the away match Leinster had to LI. Booth was saying in the post-match interview that the Irish players had an advantage coz of the resting policy. When Cheika came on the interviewer repeated Booths statement, and Cheika retorted that most of his players hadnt played for a month, so they had to contend with a lot of rusty players.

They just cant accept that one of the colonies is better than them Which we shouldnt really be, considering the difference in player numbers.

Digifriendly

durkadurka wrote: »

We have 3 good provinces, not 2. Conn people would disagree!
Munster and Leinster can sleep walk through the magners and still win it because the welsh and scots are so bad. That's their problem. They are welcome to copy everything we do.
England's terrible structure is also their fault. They are big enough to support a league of that size but they do it all wrong.
The fact is we have a great structure, great support and a great batch of players. Recipe for success.

Agree entirely. Original article talks of the spectre of relegation hanging over all 12 GP clubs from start of the season. Since when were Leicester in danger of relegation?

irishbucsfan

Chucky the tree wrote: »

While his uses the worst points possible I still agree with the principle argument. Irish teams have a huge advantage over GP/top 14.

In one way, it is a good point.

But it's only because of the poor organisation of the RFU.

We've managed to develop a system which allows us to field the best club teams in the world, while at the same time fielding an international team which is better than most of the other teams in the world.

Instead of whining about how good we are and how unfair it is, the English should probably be looking at themselves and asking how they've managed to become so pathetic that all of their teams are consistently beaten by teams from a nation with 2% percent of the playing numbers that they have.

cabrwab

Terrible article/blog.

Seems like nothing but sore loser.

The magners league has its fair share of full sides playing too.
That leinster munster game last week was crazy how tough it was hell for leather game.
Somebody should point out we have 4 provinces that all play in the magners league and one that is the poor cousin but this year has thrown up a few great games.

Chucky the tree

davidpfitz wrote: »

How, exactly? Because we're better? Or, that the GP hamper themselves because they import too many players? They need to come up to our level, not us down to theirs.

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Would you care to venture a point or 2 on that?

Because we play significantly less game then both the GP teams and top 14 teams. No one really cares about the ML, ROG said it himself. The fact it's a young competition doesn't help but it doesn't have the prestigae of the English or French leagues. Ask any Munster, Leinster, Ospreys, Cardiff etc fan which they would prefer to win the HEC or ML and they will all easily say HEC. Ask a toulouse, clermount, Lecister, Wasps fan and it will be a far tougher question, with French fans most likely going Top 14. The lack of depth in the ML is a huge weakness, far to many poor quality teams. If connaught actually had the worry of relegation I think they'd find it a lot tougher to make it to a challenge cup semi final. The big issue is number of games though, ROG has only played 9 times in the ML, I'd be shocked if you can find 1 French or English play who has only played that few games(barring major injury obviously).

LeeroyJones

Fair point. An advantage it is perhaps but is it an unfair advantage?

For me this is a problem for their respective organisations to address. We can only play what's in front of us, we can't really do anything about the quality of the Welsh or Scots.

2040

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Because we play significantly less game then both the GP teams and top 14 teams. No one really cares about the ML, ROG said it himself. The fact it's a young competition doesn't help but it doesn't have the prestigae of the English or French leagues. Ask any Munster, Leinster, Ospreys, Cardiff etc fan which they would prefer to win the HEC or ML and they will all easily say HEC. Ask a toulouse, clermount, Lecister, Wasps fan and it will be a far tougher question, with French fans most likely going Top 14. The lack of depth in the ML is a huge weakness, far to many poor quality teams. If connaught actually had the worry of relegation I think they'd find it a lot tougher to make it to a challenge cup semi final. The big issue is number of games though, ROG has only played 9 times in the ML, I'd be shocked if you can find 1 French or English play who has only played that few games(barring major injury obviously).

French teams have massive squads. James Haskell wasn't even in the Stade 23 today, after having a cracker of a game last week. Players get rested a fair bit in the Top14. Jonny Wilkinson doesn't start every game for Toulon at all.

I think the main problem for people like the author of the original article and Toby Booth is one of perception. They hear that Ireland fields provinces while England fields clubs and they immediately feel aggrieved. Then they try to come up with reasons why it's unfair.

As far as i'm concerned it's this simple:

- England has a population of 60 million people with about 1 million rugby players and 12 top flight clubs (2nd division clubs in reality are feeder clubs, just as the AIL is to the Irish provinces.)
- Ireland has a population of around 6 million with 4 provincial teams with far less players.

If anyone should have the advantage it's England.

As for the teams not really being bothered by the ML, there may be something there, but i don't see how it really makes a difference when it comes down to it. Munster played Northampton yesterday and beat them. I don't see how the competitiveness of their respective leagues comes into it. You could just as easily say that Munster players were worn out from International/Lions duty.

Plus, English clubs have an overabundance of foreign players, not all of whom are of a high standard.

They need to get rid of the salary cap, or at least change it, and start, incrementally, putting a cap on the amount of foreign players a team can have.

danthefan

Haskell didn't start last weekend against Clermont either.

Podge_irl

Chucky the tree wrote: »

No one really cares about the ML, ROG said it himself.

No, ROG doesn't care about the ML. There's a difference.

The lack of depth in the ML is a huge weakness, far to many poor quality teams

I'm not sure I agree with this, but it's a tough one to argue. Some will claim that the Blues trouncing Newcastle is a sign that the standard of the ML is higher while some will claim that it shows the Blues don't care about the ML (though I personally have a hard time believing the latter considering their performances in the ML leave them were leaving them perilously close to missing out on HEC rugby til recently). It's an argument that's impossible to win from either side. I certainly don't think Leeds, Worcester, Montauban or Bourgoin are better than Connacht or Scarlets.

The big issue is number of games though, ROG has only played 9 times in the ML, I'd be shocked if you can find 1 French or English play who has only played that few games(barring major injury obviously).

Which leads to an equal number of complaints that the players are rusty. Everything the provinces do is designed to have the players at their peak for the international side, not for the provincial side. It's occasionally a handicap as well.

2040

danthefan wrote: »

Haskell didn't start last weekend against Clermont either.

Okay, my mistake, it was the week before against Perpignan. I don't even rate Haskell as highly as a lot of people do. My point is a lot of French teams have big squads with quality players. I don't think that's too contentious a point.

anonymous_joe

One thing I will say is this.

Our regional set up means that our use of our resources is infinitely better than England's. Added to that, our teams play in a competition that's sadly undervalued. Were the Magners League given the respect it deserves, Irish teams wouldn't do as well in Europe, but I could probably live with that.

Anyway, we do have an advantage, but unfair is a stretch.

Podge_irl

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Were the Magners League given the respect it deserves, Irish teams wouldn't do as well in Europe, but I could probably live with that.

I don't believe that. Leinster are so far ahead of everyone in the ML at the moment that it's not even funny and they did that using a lot of squad players.

Chucky the tree

LeeroyJones wrote: »

Fair point. An advantage it is perhaps but is it an unfair advantage?

For me this is a problem for their respective organisations to address. We can only play what's in front of us, we can't really do anything about the quality of the Welsh or Scots.

I don't know if I'd use the word unfair, but it is an advantage. I don#t why people get offended when it's mentioned though. I've had this debate before on this site and as soon as it's mentioned people get defensive and try and deny there is no advantage.

2040 wrote: »

French teams have massive squads. James Haskell wasn't even in the Stade 23 today, after having a cracker of a game last week. Players get rested a fair bit in the Top14. Jonny Wilkinson doesn't start every game for Toulon at all.

I think the main problem for people like the author of the original article and Toby Booth is one of perception. They hear that Ireland fields provinces while England fields clubs and they immediately feel aggrieved. Then they try to come up with reasons why it's unfair.

As far as i'm concerned it's this simple:

- England has a population of 60 million people with about 1 million rugby players and 12 top flight clubs (2nd division clubs in reality are feeder clubs, just as the AIL is to the Irish provinces.)
- Ireland has a population of around 6 million with 4 provincial teams with far less players.

If anyone should have the advantage it's England.

As for the teams not really being bothered by the ML, there may be something there, but i don't see how it really makes a difference when it comes down to it. Munster played Northampton yesterday and beat them. I don't see how the competitiveness of their respective leagues comes into it. You could just as easily say that Munster players were worn out from International/Lions duty.

Plus, English clubs have an overabundance of foreign players, not all of whom are of a high standard.

They need to get rid of the salary cap, or at least change it, and start, incrementally, putting a cap on the amount of foreign players a team can have.

Players don't get a huge amount of rest in the top 14 because it's so competitive and a lot of them want to win it more then the HEC. Teams now will rest players now if they have a play-off spot. Exact stats are hard to find but most would have played 15+ or so Top 14 games.

Podge_irl wrote: »

No, ROG doesn't care about the ML. There's a difference.

I'm not sure I agree with this, but it's a tough one to argue. Some will claim that the Blues trouncing Newcastle is a sign that the standard of the ML is higher while some will claim that it shows the Blues don't care about the ML (though I personally have a hard time believing the latter considering their performances in the ML leave them were leaving them perilously close to missing out on HEC rugby til recently). It's an argument that's impossible to win from either side. I certainly don't think Leeds, Worcester, Montauban or Bourgoin are better than Connacht or Scarlets.


Which leads to an equal number of complaints that the players are rusty. Everything the provinces do is designed to have the players at their peak for the international side, not for the provincial side. It's occasionally a handicap as well.

lol, you really think BOD would be just as happy winning the ML as the HEC? As a fan which would you prefer to win? I think Connacht or Scarlets aren't far off but I do think there's a huge difference playing Connacht this time of year in the ML when they have nothing to play for compared to playing Bourgoin who are two points above relegation.

Podge_irl

Chucky the tree wrote: »

lol, you really think BOD would be just as happy winning the ML as the HEC? As a fan which would you prefer to win? I think Connacht or Scarlets aren't far off but I do think there's a huge difference playing Connacht this time of year in the ML when they have nothing to play for compared to playing Bourgoin who are two points above relegation.

Of course I don't, but I do know that he and the Leinster team were happy to win the ML two seasons ago and that it provided an important springboard to their HEC success. Obviously the HEC is more important, but I think Leinster at least are genuinely serious about making a play for both competitions this season. I think the ML is improving in its competitiveness and I think it is at times under-rated as a competition. I also thing comments about player not caring about the ML do it a disservice and are ultimately untrue. Sure, they care more about the HEC, but that's not the same thing.

Leinster have only fielded a massively weakened team once this season and Cheika even admitted that was a mistake. I think they just have an awesome squad and that is why they are managing to do so well on both fronts. Three Welsh teams were in a fight for HEC places so they couldn't afford to take any games lightly (obviously the Scarlets have now fallen behind in that). French teams regularly all but capitulate away games in advance and Clermont rested some players ahead of the QF against Leinster.

I think the Celtic teams are currently the best set up for the HEC, but I think the advantage is over-stated by England/Welsh teams who simply aren't as good. International games would support that idea.

danthefan

The attitude that teams would rather win the HEC than the ML therefore the ML is worthless really doesn't make sense.

castie

Suppose if you put it on paper.

Irish Team -> 3 provinces mainly

English Team -> ?? Teams

Its alot more than 3.

So I suppose dividing the pie into fewer slices grants teams from that nation a better chance.

irishbucsfan

castie wrote: »

Suppose if you put it on paper.

Irish Team -> 3 provinces mainly

English Team -> ?? Teams

Its alot more than 3.

So I suppose dividing the pie into fewer slices grants teams from that nation a better chance.

Depends on the size of the pie. England have 40 times more registered players than us.

castie

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Depends on the size of the pie. England have 40 times more registered players than us.

Size of the pie is the same as its the national team in this case.

molloyjh

To say that because the HEC is the ultimate prize at that level is fair enough. To say that means that the ML is worthless is nonsense. The players and the supporters all want to win every game. Cheika is aiming for the double so obviously the ML means something there.

The article basically seems to be identifying flaws with the English set up more-so than anything. Albeit unintentionally. England has over 7 times the number of registered players as us while the GP only has 3 times as many teams as we do. And the GP itself is a pretty poor tournament at the moment. English rugby is in a bad way and that is no ones fault but their own.

marco_polo

Makes a change from the whinging about the Irish national team having an unfair advantage I suppose.

Articles like this make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, for it is an good indicator that our provinces are still highly successful .

As for the point of the article 4/8 quarter finalists this year suggest that this is not a problem for the french teams.

durkadurka

Heres a theory.
England dont have many good players.

Thats why the international team and the club scene are in shyte state. Yeah their system sucks but their main problem is that they havent got the players. Simple as.
Never replaced the llikes of dallaglio, back, johnson, wilkonson(hes not the same player now), robinson.
We are blessed to have a great bunch of players atm. Yes the system is important to that, but theres an element of luck too.

profitius

I think this constant knocking of the ML is getting old. Its a young improving competition and its the bread and butter for Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams. Alot of English and Welsh say negative things about it and thats because they think they should be better then Irish teams like they traditionally are.

As for us having 3 times more players then Wales, thats a joke. I'm sure its fairly even and maybe the Welsh have more.

I don't think Irish teams get credit for having talent. Watch Sky and they'll highlight Alan Quinlan being 'cute' and over the weekend Munster beat Northampton because of 'experiance'.

[Jackass]

haha I love these articles / posts!

The English squirm in a desperate attempt to explain their failings, and the obvious conclusion is "it's not fair!!"

Heaslip is quoted as as saying that the Munster Leinster clash in Thomond had the intensity of a test match. Just because Northampton can't live with Munster there, then there must be a better explanation, like perhaps, they're not as good?

Also, some English and French rugby teams read like a who's who of world rugby with all the imports they have, plus they have about 10 times the player base as Ireland, but we spread our player base over four teams, 1 third the amount of the English teams.

Relegation wouldn't make a difference. Unless Newcastle were playing in the Heineken Cup final and a last day relegation battle at the same time, it's a moot point.

And as for not winning it every year............................we pretty much do! This year would make it 4 Irish wins from the last 5 years, should Leinster or Munster lift the trophy.

JustinDee

Don't be so thin-skinned, folks.

Irish provincial teams do in fact have an advantage in qualification criteria for the ERC.

chupacabra

JustinDee wrote: »

Don't be so thin-skinned, folks.

Irish provincial teams do in fact have an advantage in qualification criteria for the ERC.

How so?

freyners

haha every time i see this arguement i smile:), because as long as they keep using it as an excuse, it means there going to keep using as the reason they're not progressing and not take a serious look at there own flawed system.:D

oh ya, just for anyone who doesnt think the ML has the same standards, try watch a munster-leinster, edinburgh-glasgow or osprey-blues match and get back to me, there plenty of lesser intensity matchs there too but so does every league.

buck65

Ospreys put Leicester out of the HCup and we are still hearing about it. Connacht beat Worcester home and away, and are in a European semi final, why is this not mentioned here?
2 teams my arse, Ulster have a fair "peppering" of irish and other internationals too and this isn't mentioned either.

bamboozle

surely Welsh and scottish teams have the same advantages as Irish teams if the point is lack of focus on the magners league.

Irish professional rugby set up is the best in the NH hence the levels of performance in the HC. Of course the support our provinces receive is also a huge help.

Its not an irish problem the GP is littered with south africans and south sea islanders and lots of english born players are not getting a lookin, plus appointing Johnson as coach was another backwards step.

In saying all this its gotta be said an all irish HC final would be bad for the competition,

pickarooney

The population/number of teams argument is largely irrelevant in the context of the professional game and player mobility. It's up to clubs how they build their teams, be it from grassroots, imports or something in between.

Podge_irl

JustinDee wrote: »

Irish provincial teams do in fact have an advantage in qualification criteria for the ERC.

Of course they do. There is a difference between that and saying they have an unfair advantage in the competition itself.

magotch07

absolute horse cr*p typical sky sports bull****

BoarHunter

don't disagree with the article. we have been saying that long time in France.

Having said that, irish teams are made by and for the HC . They target the Hcup and they get it now consistently since 4 years. I don't see where the robbery is there ...

There wouldn't be the HCup, the irish province would play maybe 2 games a year as they used to and the AIL would be the reference.

yes the province are half of internationals and old/futur internationals but the french teams are also a mix of French, argentinian, Italian premium players.

The big difference IMO is the unfair advantage of not considering their domestic league as a priority, the fitness advantage of that is the biggest thing that is fooling people both in Ireland and away.

It is true for the HCup and the 6 N.

You can verify it every 4 years when all the teams are starting the competition with the same level of fitness : Wales and Ireland didn't go out of their group in the last WCup...

So when the fitness edge isn't there, you can see that Magners league rugby isn't so dominating.

daveharnett

davidpfitz wrote: »

150,000?! So, I'm expected to believe that one out of every 25 or 30 people (people, not even males!) are professional rugby players?

Not professional players, just players.

Every player in the country (at every level) is registered with the IRFU for insurance purposes. Not sure how long it takes for registration to lapse - I'd say that a good number of 'registered players' aren't actively playing.

molloyjh

profitius wrote: »

As for us having 3 times more players then Wales, thats a joke. I'm sure its fairly even and maybe the Welsh have more.

According to the IRB this is how it breaks down for registered senior male players:

England: 705,272
France: 91,886
Ireland: 21,939
Wales: 21,196
Scotland: 10,556

So Wales are pretty much the same as ourselves. England have a whopping 32 times the number of registered players as we do, and over 7.5 times the number of players compared to their bext biggest European rival.

If you look at the total number of clubs in England it is 1,900 That's an average of 371 players per club. Compare this to Irelands 207 clubs. We have an average of just under 106 players per club. So per club they have over 3.5 times the number of players than we do. And none of us are calling that an unfair advantage. If they can't create at least a couple of top class sides from all of that then that is their problem, not ours. And it's a bloody big problem at that. Let's not even talk about the national side!

Wales may have more cause for complaint given that they have 325 clubs. That's an average of about 65 players per club. But then they have set their rugby union up that way and should really be looking to reform it at this stage.

molloyjh

BoarHunter wrote: »

don't disagree with the article. we have been saying that long time in France.

Having said that, irish teams are made by and for the HC . They target the Hcup and they get it now consistently since 4 years. I don't see where the robbery is there ...

There wouldn't be the HCup, the irish province would play maybe 2 games a year as they used to and the AIL would be the reference.

yes the province are half of internationals and old/futur internationals but the french teams are also a mix of French, argentinian, Italian premium players.

The big difference IMO is the unfair advantage of not considering their domestic league as a priority, the fitness advantage of that is the biggest thing that is fooling people both in Ireland and away.

It is true for the HCup and the 6 N.

You can verify it every 4 years when all the teams are starting the competition with the same level of fitness : Wales and Ireland didn't go out of their group in the last WCup...

So when the fitness edge isn't there, you can see that Magners league rugby isn't so dominating.

I think the problem with the ML is the quality of the competition. It isn't consistantly top class opposition. Certainly not when compared to the French league. But then the French league has how many years on the ML? The quality of the ML does seem to be increasing at the moment. I would hope that in the next few years there will be some reform in the Welsh set-up leading to greater competition and a bigger challenge. Not sure what the Scottish can do though.

As many of the Irish team have said in the past, and most sports people too, you relish the big games. You play so that you can face the top teams and push yourself as much as possible. At the moment this happens more in the HEC than the Magners. That is not because of the HEC itself, but because of the domestic leagues. The ML will get there in time itself.

daveharnett

molloyjh wrote: »

According to the IRB this is how it breaks down for registered senior male players:

England: 705,272
France: 91,886
Ireland: 21,939
Wales: 21,196
Scotland: 10,556

Not sure if this is the best metric in predicting success at the elite level. I would be more interested in the number of youth players, and the level of success in retaining and developing them.