Polish President feared dead in plane crash

therecklessone

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/7574238/Polish-president-feared-dead-in-plane-crash.html

President Lech Kaczynski was travelling with his wife from Warsaw to Smolensk airport, 220 miles southwest of Moscow.

Sergei Antufiev, the regional governor of the Smolensk, said that everyone on board had been killed.

"It clipped the tops of the trees, crashed down and broke into pieces," Mr Antufiev, told Russia-24 television news network by telephone. "There were no survivors." Polish state news agency PAP also said there were no survivors.

Conditions around the airport were described as foggy when the Tupolev Tu-154 came down a mile from the airport.

Posts on PPRUNE suggest they pulled a go-around and crashed from that.

We have also lost Chiefs of: land forces, air forces, special forces and marine forces, with some accompanying generals.

Plus their governor of the central bank.

That's a lot of important people, the crash was at a military base and apparently Russian security forces are confiscating pictures/footage shot on the site, and arresting some members of the media.

This investigation needs to be open, and above suspicion.

adamski8

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0410/kaczynskil.html

A Russian mission control official who had been present during conversations with the pilot told Reuters the pilot had ignored advice.
'The pilot was advised to fly to Moscow or Minsk because of heavy fog, but he still decided to land. No one should have been landing in that fog,' he said, on condition his name was not published.

Looks like pilot error then. Do pilot ignore advise like that! seems unbelieveable

therecklessone

adamski8 wrote: »

Looks like pilot error then.

Please do not jump to conclusions, at least until a full investigation has been completed.

loldog

Did the airport have an ILS? Probably not, I guess.

There are two airports at Smolensk, one a military field in the north, the other a civilian airport in the south. Looking on Wikipedia, there is no mention of either having an ILS.

Also, maybe the altimeter didn't function correctly.

EDIT:

http://en.rian.ru/world/20100410/158510160.html

Russian air traffic controllers advised the pilot of a plane carrying Polish President Lech Kaczynski not to attempt to land, the Polish Gazeta Wyborcza said on Saturday.

All 96 people on board a Soviet-made Tu-154 were killed earlier on Saturday when the plane hit trees as it approached Smolensk airport in thick fog.

The paper said the pilot and Kaczynski were advised to turn around and head for Minsk, the capital of neighboring Belarus, as the Smolensk military aerodrome lacks the necessary navigational equipment to receive planes in heavy fog.

But the pilot and Kaczynski ignored the advice, the paper said.

.

adamski8

therecklessone wrote: »

Please do not jump to conclusions, at least until a full investigation has been completed.

Please don't try moderate my posts.
I said "looks like"! So I need to wait a year or two before I can comment on it?!!
Sources are saying the pilot was told to land in a different aiport as quoted above and choose not to, i don't see how thats really jumping to conclusions.

So my question to people in the know is if a pilot is told to land in another airport then does he not have to follow those orders?

Blue Punto

I know I am opening a can of worms here

BUT

Reports are that the aircraft made 3 approaches and crashed on the fourth

It makes me ask myself what were the crew thinking of when they had such amount of Polish VVIP's on board.
Were they under presssure to make the landing happen ?

The aircraft involved only had a major overhaul in Russia in May of last year which involved stripping it to a bare shell and rebuilding it.

It would only have had small hours since this was completed and more than likely had small hours anyway as it was delivered new to them in 1990.(The other TU 154 in the fleet came from LOT)

Regardless of the reason why it is a very sad event
May they all rest in peace

docentore

Blue Punto wrote: »

I know I am opening a can of worms here

BUT

Reports are that the aircraft made 3 approaches and crashed on the fourth

It makes me ask myself what were the crew thinking of when they had such amount of Polish VVIP's on board.
Were they under presssure to make the landing happen ?

The aircraft involved only had a major overhaul in Russia in May of last year which involved stripping it to a bare shell and rebuilding it.

It would only have had small hours since this was completed and more than likely had small hours anyway as it was delivered new to them in 1990.(The other TU 154 in the fleet came from LOT)

Regardless of the reason why it is a very sad event
May they all rest in peace

To understand why they wanted to land in Smolensk you have to understand what Katyn for us Poles is. Problem was that if the plane would land in Minsk or Moscow they wouldn't make it for the anniversary. This was meant to be a historical moment when for the first time in the history Polish president and Russian president were supposed to attend the event

Sterling Archer

I heard from a polish mate that President Lech Kaczynski once treathened to strip a pilot of his rank for refusing to land at an airport in bad weather, but he said it was all just speculation...

R.I.P all very sad..

me_right_one

docentore wrote: »

To understand why they wanted to land in Smolensk you have to understand what Katyn for us Poles is. Problem was that if the plane would land in Minsk or Moscow they wouldn't make it for the anniversary. This was meant to be a historical moment when for the first time in the history Polish president and Russian president were supposed to attend the event

Thats terrible, so tragic that all these people died there now too. My condolences to Poland and all her people.

Blue Punto

docentore wrote: »

To understand why they wanted to land in Smolensk you have to understand what Katyn for us Poles is. Problem was that if the plane would land in Minsk or Moscow they wouldn't make it for the anniversary. This was meant to be a historical moment when for the first time in the history Polish president and Russian president were supposed to attend the event

Docentore
I fully understand and know the history of what the Russians did @ Katyn and make the comment without any disrespect to the people who died there

SAFTEY FIRST IN FLIGHT
Land at another field as instructed
Miss or be late for the anniversary

BE ALIVE

If they were that tight on time then surely somebody was not doing their job right as enough time should be allowed for diversions on important flights like this .
Plus Im sure seeing as the Russian President was going to be there with the Polish President for the first time a time delay of a few hours due to bad weather would not be a major problem


Anyway

Respect to all

therecklessone

adamski8 wrote: »

Please don't try moderate my posts.

I'm not trying to moderate anybody's posts. There are a number of sources who have reported the death toll as anything from 90 to 130, sources can be wrong. The best thing for everyone to do is wait until actual evidence is available before assinging blame, we have no ideas what went on in the cockpit until the CVR is examined. I have read that the Polish president has in the past threatened the career of an Air Force officer who reufsed to land in Georgia during the Russian incursion into the country last year on safety greounds, we have no idea what pressure the crew were under (the commander of the Polish Air Force was also on board)

adamski8 wrote: »

So my question to people in the know is if a pilot is told to land in another airport then does he not have to follow those orders?

In generic terms, the captain holds ultimate responsibility for the safety of his aircraft and may choose to disregard ATC instructions should he wish.

pclancy

I see no harm in discussion or speculation as long as it does not breach any forum charter rules and does not disrespect anyone or anything.

DOCARCH

According to BBC news, controlers at Smolensk advised the pilot a number of times not to land, due to weather conditions, and asked them to divert to another airport, but this advice was ignored.

adamski8

update from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/10125435.stm

Non-crew members were present in the cockpit of a plane that crashed killing the Polish president and more than 90 others, an investigation has found

Seems to tie in witht the therory that they put the pilot under pressure to land.

donkey balls

adamski8 wrote: »

update from http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/10125435.stm

Seems to tie in witht the therory that they put the pilot under pressure to land.

what if the person found in the cockpit was a jumpseater ?

the_syco

"It has been established that in the cockpit there were individuals who were not members of the crew," said Tatyana Anodina, one of the investigating officials.
"The voice of one of them has been identified exactly, the voice of the other, or the others, will require additional information from the Polish side."

Hrm... I hope none of the jumpseaters were soviets...

donkey balls

the_syco wrote: »

Hrm... I hope none of the jumpseaters were soviets...

so they heard other people talking beside the crew in the cockpit thats a BIG NO NO well in my old company anyway, no one was allowed to talk to the crew whie jumpseating with the acft below FL100.

Dacian

donkey balls wrote: »

what if the person found in the cockpit was a jumpseater ?

The term 'non-crew member' I would accept as someone who really shouldn't have been there.

IMO it would be strange to have a jumpseater on a national/political charter flight. "Any chance of a lift to Smolensk guys?" In addition anyone qualified to be in a jumpseat would know not to talk or interfere with the crew during take-off and approach.

pclancy

Was it not being operated as a military flight by a military flight crew therefore exempt from those rules?