Polish Presidents plane crashes.

Pride Fighter

My thoughts are with the Polish people on the loss of their head of state.

RIP.

Pride Fighter

http://www.france24.com/en/20100410-polish-president-kaczynski-plane-crashes-approach-russian-airport

There is the link. Not confirmed officially but the head of the Smolensk region in Russia said there are no survivors.

Dannyboy83

Not to speak ill of the dead, but from most of the Polish I have spoken to and the opinion they have of him, he won't be missed.

Dave!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0410/breaking1.html

Polish President Lech Kaczynski was killed when a plane carrying at least 96 people crashed in thick fog on its approach to a Russian airport this morning, killing everyone on board.

"The political consequences will be long-term and possibly will change the entire future landscape of Polish politics," said Jacek Wasilewski, professor at the Higher School of Social Psychology in Warsaw.

Polish government spokesman Pawel Gras said the country would hold elections after the death of Mr Kaczynski, who was 60 and had been president since 2005.

"In line with the constitution, we will have to hold an early presidential poll," Mr Gras said. "For now, the speaker of the lower house of parliament, Bronislaw Komorowski, is automatically ... the acting president."

Russian television showed the smouldering fuselage and fragments of the plane scattered in a forest.

Russia's Emergencies Ministry said 96 people were aboard the government plane, including 88 members of a Polish delegation en route to commemorate Poles killed in mass murders in the town of Katyn under orders from Soviet leader Josef Stalin in 1940.

Earlier reports had said 132 people were aboard. Smolensk regional governor Sergei Antufyev and Polish state news agency PAP said there were no survivors.

Pilot error was a possible reason for the crash, said Andrei Yevseyenkov, spokesman for the Smolensk local government. Local officials said the plane had clipped treetops on its way down.

A Russian mission control official who had been present during conversations with the pilot told said the pilot had ignored advice.

"The pilot was advised to fly to Moscow or Minsk because of heavy fog, but he still decided to land. No one should have been landing in that fog," he said, on condition his name was not published.

Polish Justice Minister Krzysztof Kwiatkowski said he would order a special inquiry into the crash.

Church services are being held throughout Poland. In Warsaw people started gathering outside the presidential palace to lay flowers and light candles.

Among the other casualties of the crash were President Kaczynski's wife Maria, along with Slawomir Skrzypek, 47, who had been central bank governor since 2007, the chief of Poland's military Franciszek Gagor and Deputy Foreign Minister Andrzej Kremer.

Some relatives of victims of the Katyn massacres were also on board, said a Polish government official in Smolensk.

Thousands of Polish prisoners of war and intellectuals were murdered at Katyn by Soviet forces in spring 1940 in an enduring symbol for Poles of their suffering under Soviet rule.

Russia has opened an investigation into the crash. The Investigative Committee of the Prosecutor General's Office is looking into whether bad weather, human error, a technical malfunction or other reasons caused it, according to a statement on the committee's Web Site.

A criminal case has been initiated, it said.

The plane, a Tupolev 154, "went through a complete overhaul two or three months ago," Janusz Sejmej, a Polish defence ministry spokesman, said today in an interview. Pilot error may have been responsible, RIA Novosti reported earlier, citing an unidentified investigator

mike65

Its looking like an administrative disaster for Poland, half the government, military top brass were on that plane.

digme

mike65 wrote: »

Its looking like an administrative disaster for Poland, half the government, military top brass were on that plane.

Maybe now they won't have missiles 25 miles from Russia?

DiscoStu

According to the flight manifest on-board were:

* Lech Kaczyński, the President of Poland
* Maria Kaczyńska, the first lady
* Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile
* Jerzy Szmajdziński, Deputy Speaker of the Sejm
* Władysław Stasiak, Chief of the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
* Aleksander Szczygło, head of the National Security Bureau
* Paweł Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
* Mariusz Handzlik, Undersecretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
* Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
* General Franciszek Gągor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff
* Andrzej Przewoźnik, Secretary-General of the Council for the Defence of the Memory of Struggle and Suffering
* Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
* Przemysław Gosiewski, member of the Sejm
* Izabela Jaruga-Nowacka, member of the Sejm
* Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
* Leszek Deptuła, member of the Sejm
* Grażyna Gęsicka, member of the Sejm
* Sebastian Karpiniuk, member of the Sejm
* Aleksandra Natalli-Świat, member of the Sejm
* Arkadiusz Rybicki, member of the Sejm
* Jolanta Szymanek-Deresz, member of the Sejm
* Wiesław Woda, member of the Sejm
* Edward Wojtas, member of the Sejm
* Janina Fetlińska, member of the Senat
* Stanisław Zając, member of the Senat
* Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman
* Sławomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland
* Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance
* Tadeusz Płoski, Bishop of the Military Ordinariate of the Polish Army
* Piotr Nurowski, President of the Polish Olympic Committee
* Ryszard Rumianek – Rector of the Cardinal Stefan Wyszyński University in Warsaw
* Jerzy Bahr, Ambassador of Poland to Russia
* Krystyna Bochenek
* Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta, Commander-in-chief of the Polish Navy
* Maciej Płażyński
* Krzysztof Putra, member of the Sejm

Looks like a large chunk of the parliamentary system gone to. Kind of makes you wish our own boys were on board.

mike65

digme wrote: »

Maybe now they won't have missiles 25 miles from Russia?

Maybe they'll have 50? silly comment.

kev9100

If the president is dead, who's in charge and when do they have to hold elections?

Sulmac

kev9100 wrote: »

If the president is dead, who's in charge and when do they have to hold elections?

The Prime Minister is still there, and now the speaker of the lower house of Parliament, Bronisław Komorowski, is acting President.

They were due to have a Presidential election later this year anyway, but now it's likely it'll be brought forward, possibly to June.

I'm not sure about the Parliamentary members, but if Poland uses a list system I presume the next people on the list are automatically deemed elected.

The bigger task will be replacing the military and banking officials.

amacachi

DiscoStu wrote: »

Looks like a large chunk of the parliamentary system gone to. Kind of makes you wish our own boys were on board.

No it doesn't.

Dannyboy83

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Not to speak ill of the dead, but from most of the Polish I have spoken to and the opinion they have of him, he won't be missed.

I spoke to a polish girl this morning and she said "good riddance" she said he was an embarrassment to the people of Poland.

herya

mike65 wrote: »

Its looking like an administrative disaster for Poland, half the government, military top brass were on that plane.

Actually there was only one vice-minister on board. The government is not affected really.

Dannyboy83

Deleted User wrote: »

I spoke to a polish girl this morning and she said "good riddance" she said he was an embarrassment to the people of Poland.

I remember my ex-gf being enraged as Kaczynski had said that all Polish people who came to Ireland to work were 'toilet cleaners' and 'life failures'.

He made similar comments in the UK, Tony Blair was highly embarassed iirc.

He also had less than civil views on homosexuals, but this was as much about his politics (Christian Conservative iirc) as his own agenda.
Given the recent pope, the strength of the church in Poland and the fact that so many young liberals left Poland from 2004, leaving behind old conservatives, it was an own goal among Polish migrants, but rather popular among those 'left behind', particularly the elderly.

bleg

Was this the guy who held up the ratification of the Lisbon treaty?

Dannyboy83

bleg wrote: »

Was this the guy who held up the ratification of the Lisbon treaty?

Yep

http://euobserver.com/9/25842

17.03.2008 @ 09:26 CET
The Polish opposition, led by former Prime Minister Jaroslaw Kaczynski, has threatened not to approve the EU's Lisbon Treaty in the country's parliament unless the ratification bill contains legal guarantees respecting Poland's sovereignty and its constitution as the highest law in the country, out of worries about gay marriage "being imposed" on the country.

Freak:pac:

herya

Make sure you distinguish between Jaroslaw Kaczynski (the former PM) and Lech Kaczynski (late President). Not easy since they were twin brothers!

Lech Kaczynski was not suitable for a president, he was blindly conservative and he was playing tough being weak. He was an embarrassment really and there was no way he could get reelected. But still it's low to rejoice in his death.

His wife Maria was a real lady. His mother has been hospitalised for the last couple of weeks due to prolonged illness. What a blow to the family - think what his twin brother or the couple's daughter are going through.

Dannyboy83

herya wrote: »

Make sure you distinguish between Jaroslaw Kaczynski (the former PM) and Lech Kaczynski (late President). Not easy since they were twin brothers!

Lech Kaczynski was not suitable for a president, he was blindly conservative and he was playing tough being weak. He was an embarrassment really and there was no way he could get reelected. But still it's low to rejoice in his death.

His wife Maria was a real lady. His mother has been hospitalised for the last couple of weeks due to prolonged illness. What a blow to the family - think what his twin brother or the couple's daughter are going through.

Heyra,
I check on PolishForums.com and they said both of the twins were killed in the crash. Is this correct?
One of first replies on the thread was "Thank God".

I agree, it's low to rejoice in his death and I don't, but a lot of Poles will and a lot of homosexual people will.

seamus

Very sad for the families of those involved, though I think you could say that this will have a beneficial effect for Poland's relationship with the rest of Europe, and it's no devastation for the political system of Poland.

Are there any talks of foul play here? A big chunk of Polish top brass killed en route to Russia...

herya

Only Lech died in the crash. Jaroslaw was in Poland - he is only the head of his party, not a state official so he didn't travel there. Good for you to stay respectful, thank you. I would vote for absolutely anybody against Kaczynski in the next election and I think as a president he was a caricature but still he was a human being and a half-decent one at that.

Artur.PL

I do not think so it is very important for us Polish was the President popular or not. People are dead and this is tragedy.

One of first replies on the thread was "Thank God".

how people stupid and heartless could be.

I feel embarrassed because of that

herya

seamus wrote: »

Very sad for the families of those involved, though I think you could say that this will have a beneficial effect for Poland's relationship with the rest of Europe, and it's no devastation for the political system of Poland.

Are there any talks of foul play here? A big chunk of Polish top brass killed en route to Russia...

Some people will always speculate. But no, it looks like heavy fog and the lack of modern equipment are to blame - the pilots couldn't see the ground and the airport did not have the modern landing support systems. They had rerouted other planes just before the crash but they have no authority over diplomatic flights and although advised to continue to another airport the pilots decided to land. The experts are suggesting that due to the very important nature of the event the pilots may have been ordered by the brass to land despite the conditions. It has happened before on another trip of Kaczynski to Georgia.

Byron85

My Polish friend over in Poznan text me about it this morning. She said things are slightly crazy over there at the moment. People are panicking and aren't sure what to do. It's not armageddon crazy but fun times lay ahead nonetheless.

Le King

RIP

Dr_Phil

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Heyra,
I check on PolishForums.com and they said both of the twins were killed in the crash. Is this correct?
One of first replies on the thread was "Thank God".

I agree, it's low to rejoice in his death and I don't, but a lot of Poles will and a lot of homosexual people will.

Your post is an utter pile of sh1te.

Here are the links to some forums, read just these 2 if you can:

http://www.gazeta.ie/forum/index.php?showtopic=62769

http://www.gazeta.ie/forum/index.php?showtopic=62775&pid=448239&st=0&#entry448239

http://www.gazeta.ie/

Some other from PolishForums.com

"CK, I understand that but there was no need for such harsh commentary. He stood against the Russian government, not the Russian people. Even Putin and Medvedev found kind words for him and the others, why can't you?"

"My prayers to our President, Lech Kaczynski, his wife, and all the other people of this crash.

I can hardly believe some of the comments posted on this topic, I mean, the victims bodies are probably still warm and some of you have the nerve to make it all a joke?"


A few idiots posted some crap and you think this is the entire nation? Do you work for "Daily Mail" by any chance?


And here is what these few idiots get:

"You are scum - no decent person talks badly about a man shortly after his death.
Only the worthless trash, the lowest of the low do that."

Read the forum properly..

kravmaga

Latest from website on this tragedy

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0410/kaczynskil.html

What is interesting in the article is an un-named ATC operative in Russia who states that the pilot ignored advice to divert to Moscow or Minsk airports as the fog was very heavy on approach to Smolensk regional airport??.

JonathanAnon

Why would they put so many important people on the one flight???? I mean even some families split themselves up on flight (like the ones on AF447). Chechyn terrorists, pitot tubes, etc etc

akkadian

JonathanAnon wrote: »

Why would they put so many important people on the one flight???? I mean even some families split themselves up on flight (like the ones on AF447). Chechyn terrorists, pitot tubes, etc etc

My thoughts are with the families. My heartfelt condolences

Artur.PL

But that question is good. This is tragedy no doubt but this is second time when it happen. Nobody has done his homework. CASA air accident

mike65

The same thing was said after the Mull of Kintyre helicopter crash that killed most of the NI security experts.

Dannyboy83

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Your post is an utter pile of sh1te.

As a matter of fact, it is your post which is the utter pile of sh1te.
Unsurprisingly.

Here are the links to some forums, read just these 2 if you can:
http://www.gazeta.ie/forum/index.php?showtopic=62769
http://www.gazeta.ie/forum/index.php?showtopic=62775&pid=448239&st=0&#entry448239
http://www.gazeta.ie/

Did I comment on these forums genius?:rolleyes:

Some other from PolishForums.com

"CK, I understand that but there was no need for such harsh commentary. He stood against the Russian government, not the Russian people. Even Putin and Medvedev found kind words for him and the others, why can't you?"

"My prayers to our President, Lech Kaczynski, his wife, and all the other people of this crash.

I can hardly believe some of the comments posted on this topic, I mean, the victims bodies are probably still warm and some of you have the nerve to make it all a joke?"

Obviously the thread had already been moderated by the time you looked.
Thats clear by the replies to some of the quotes genius.

A few idiots posted some crap and you think this is the entire nation?

What the hell are you on about seriously?
Point out where I said the "entire nation".
Pathetic.

Do you work for "Daily Mail" by any chance?

Do you work for the "Dail Fail" by any chance?

And here is what these few idiots get:

"You are scum - no decent person talks badly about a man shortly after his death.
Only the worthless trash, the lowest of the low do that."

And this is relevant how?:rolleyes:

Read the forum properly..

Try to read my post properly genius, you appear to struggle with comprehension.

dan_d

Up to 90 people dead....RIP.
My thoughts are with all of their families.
No matter who they are, or what they do, you would not wish that on anybody.

Dr_Phil

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

a lot of Poles will and a lot of homosexual people will.

Ok genius, if you are uncapable of getting my previous post properly, here is the genius-friendly version: Don't comment on things you don't have a clue about. I simply doubt that you know anything about what man the president was and what over 50 million people around the world do feel after his death. A few sh1tty posts from the crappy forums are perfect for an artice in Daily Mail "How did the Poles hate anti-homosexual president". I didn't expect you to be that low, thats where my question about working for Daily Mail came from.

Peace,

Polish swan-eater (according to Daily Mail)

Dannyboy83

Dr_Phil wrote: »

Ok genius, if you are uncapable of getting my previous post properly, here is the genius-friendly version: Don't comment on things you don't have a clue about.

Ok, I can see why you are frustrated, you think I've taken my opinions from the forum, but that is not the case.

My ex-GF was Polish, I visited Poland a good few times, many of my friends in Ireland are Polish and I still have Polish friends in Poland.
I've never heard a good word uttered about the man by anyone.

I used to have an interest of Polish politics until 2007 and I find it difficult to distinguish between those twins and Eugene Terreblanche.
Simply one discriminated on the grounds of colour, the other two discriminated on the grounds of sexuality.
Even Heyra said he was a caricature.

Now, Poland has one of the most homophobic cultures I've ever experienced in my life, but even the wannabe gangsters/blokkars/killars used to comment on how deluded this guy was.
The only people I ever heard express support for the twins, were the bitter people who couldn't emigrate or the uber-religious. Frequently these same people were advocating war with Russia or some other deluded nonsense, LOL.

You inferred that I stated the entire nation of Poland will be happy about his death? (I didn't; reread my post; do not put words in my mouth please)
I am aware that there is a strong conservative, and very homophobic element in Poland who were supportive of his 'neo-Nuremberg' outlook.

More specifically, you are speaking only of the 50million Poles.
I also referred to homosexuals (Polish and non-Polish).
I was on a British bodybuilding forum yesterday and the thread didn't look entirely different from the one running about Eugene Terreblanche at the moment.
If you base your policies on grounds of discrimination, you have to be prepared to accept the backlash.

I simply doubt that you know anything about what man the president was and what over 50 million people around the world do feel after his death.

Any less than you do?
Are you omnipotent/omnipresent?
I was at the gym this morning and there were 4 Polish lads I asked about it, they all said it was a terrible tragedy but Good Riddance to Kaczynski and it's a shame his brother wasn't on the plane with him.
They are of course 'toilet cleaners' and 'life failures' in Kaczynski's eyes so they have adequate reason to feel slighted by him.

A few sh1tty posts from the crappy forums are perfect for an artice in Daily Mail "How did the Poles hate anti-homosexual president". I didn't expect you to be that low, thats where my question about working for Daily Mail came from.

See above
I think you jumped the gun.

Peace,

Polish swan-eater (according to Daily Mail)

Peace,
Polish & Russian speaking Irishman;)

Dr_Phil

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I used to have an interest of Polish politics until 2007

That's fine, I give up on this conversation and leave you in peace. I could post back and start going on either about Ireland's issues (homophobia, xenophobia, drugs, pyjamas, etc, etc,) but that brings us nowhere. I should actually post about communism, culture, people from blocks/flats in cities against the country, post communists, Solidarity and political mafia that drains Poland in the name of (so called in Poland) "democracy" to it's very end - but you will not understand. 10 pints would be not enough to tell you what I know, what my parents told me, what I saw and went through. And I wouldn't blame you because, as you say, even some Polish don't understand who Kaczynski was, what he did, what his idea was and what was he fighting agains. That's why Poland's wasted it's chance.

It's all way more complicated than a bunch of youngsters fed by TVN (anti-opposition TV) propaganda can tell you. You would probably be surprised (or maybe not) that all this Solidarity trick was just to pass the power temporarily - so that the people could believe they live in democracy - and then take it back. Do you speak Polish? Watch "The Night Shift":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocna_zmiana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhj4rvei5pg

My frustration (it's actually sadness more than frustration) comes from fact, that a number of people who used to do and could do something for Poland goes down more and more... And blinded by the propaganda people don't seem to cope on and realise where the actual problem is, no they fcuking care about "What did he say about homosexuals".. In the scale of the issues thatKaczynski had to deal and dealt with - whatever he said, he's excused in my opinion.

I appreciate your interest in Poland's history, I'm impressed that you've scored with a Polish girl - but you have to learn a hell lot more, and I'm not being sarcastic here at all.

Dannyboy83

Dr_Phil wrote: »

That's fine, I give up on this conversation and leave you in peace. I could post back and start going on either about Ireland's issues (homophobia, xenophobia, drugs, pyjamas, etc, etc,) but that brings us nowhere.

I disagree.
You should post on these things.
I do it constantly myself.
I've often made the point how laughable it is that the Catholic church and religious leaders in Ireland can condemn homosexuals, while raping children and hiding the epedemic paedophilia in the Catholic Church.

The level of homophobia in Poland is disturbing and makes the country like like a pack of .......what's the word? Wiesnaki? Rolnicy?

Kaczynski's views didn't instill confidence, anymore than Jacob Zuma's stories about taking a shower after sex will prevent HIV.

Speaking of xenophobia in Ireland, I've found EE on EE xenophobia to be far worse.
Polish hate Lithuanians.
Lithuanians hate Russians.
Russians hate Georgians.
And they all hate Polish (because the Poles are the majority immigrant group)

Then all of the EE immigrants together hate the blacks.
It's bound to happen when you have a microcosm tho.

I should actually post about communism, culture, people from blocks/flats in cities against the country, post communists, Solidarity and political mafia that drains Poland in the name of (so called in Poland) "democracy" to it's very end - but you will not understand.

If it's relevant to the discussion, then post away...
There was a time when I didn't understand Polish either, but I had to tackle that one.

TBH, you could be speaking about Ireland there if you swap the word communist for republican.

10 pints would be not enough

Let's smash another stereotype - I don't drink alcohol.
Not all Irish are mono-lingual, beer swilling, xenophobes.:D

to tell you what I know, what my parents told me, what I saw and went through. And I wouldn't blame you because, as you say, even some Polish don't understand who Kaczynski was, what he did, what his idea was and what was he fighting agains. That's why Poland's wasted it's chance.

All I will say is that I've probably heard it all before.
From my ex-gf's parents and grandparents, from the parents and grandparents of friends.

My partner is ethnic Russian from Lithuania. I've heard it from her angle too.
I've heard it from the Georgians, from the Estonians, from the Ukranians.
I've heard it from the Hungarians, from the Romanians, from the Slovakians.
I've heard it from so many EE angles you wouldn't believe it.

One thing I've noticed is that Poland and the Poles are very insular when compared to surrounding countries.

Usually a lot of nations, especially the former Soviet ones, have a broad outlook, but often Poles talk as if there are the only nation that has been down this road.

It's all way more complicated than a bunch of youngsters fed by TVN (anti-opposition TV) propaganda can tell you. You would probably be surprised (or maybe not) that all this Solidarity trick was just to pass the power temporarily - so that the people could believe they live in democracy - and then take it back.

Is that a dig at the EU?

Regardless, you can say that about every country.
I hear British people say it everyday.
I was just on a British board and they were saying similar things and talking about how they would vote for the BNP as Britain was no longer great and the EU were dictating terms to them.

Just last week I was listening to a Lithuanian giving out about the Polish-Lithuanian spelling issue and how ethnic Poles are not accepting Lithuania's sovereignty.
Had to listen to Georgians complaining about Abkhazia and South Ossetia etc.

Do you speak Polish? Watch "The Night Shift":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocna_zmiana

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhj4rvei5pg

Yes, I will watch it, Thank you.

My frustration (it's actually sadness more than frustration) comes from fact, that a number of people who used to do and could do something for Poland goes down more and more... And blinded by the propaganda people don't seem to cope on and realise where the actual problem is, no they fcuking care about "What did he say about homosexuals".. In the scale of the issues thatKaczynski had to deal and dealt with - whatever he said, he's excused in my opinion.

Again, every country has that problem to some extent.
I am actually sick of explaining to Russian's that they don't have any 'claim' over Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine. In their mind, they do.

I don't view discrimination against homosexuals as justifiable in light of some other virtues, anymore than one could excuse Uncle Adolf for the liquidation of the Polish nation in light of his incredible success at world domination.
When Napoleon was dominating the world, he actually liberated the Jews.

I appreciate your interest in Poland's history, I'm impressed that you've scored with a Polish girl - but you have to learn a hell lot more, and I'm not being sarcastic here at all.

I wouldn't say I scored, more like scored an own goal, but that's all ancient history Thank God. (not a dig at Polish people btw, just kicking myself)

As I said, I'm interested in what you think it is, I have to learn.
But you need to be more specific and elaborate please.

DubArk

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I remember my ex-gf being enraged as Kaczynski had said that all Polish people who came to Ireland to work were 'toilet cleaners' and 'life failures'.

He made similar comments in the UK, Tony Blair was highly embarassed iirc.

He also had less than civil views on homosexuals, but this was as much about his politics (Christian Conservative iirc) as his own agenda.
Given the recent pope, the strength of the church in Poland and the fact that so many young liberals left Poland from 2004, leaving behind old conservatives, it was an own goal among Polish migrants, but rather popular among those 'left behind', particularly the elderly.

Bet they'll say that a gay was flying the plane!

Artur.PL

funeral procession with coffins of victims of the air crash in Warsaw

Artur.PL

final report
http://cdn.gazeta.pl/bi.gazeta.pl/pub/raport/FinalReportTu-154M.pdf

Artur.PL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQU2zRP5HHk