Whats the problem with Karmann Ghias?

cath28

I've been looking at a 72 Karmann Ghia and also a 123 Merc ( chalk and cheese- I know:o). But everyone I know (off line) who knows aything about classics tells me NOT to buy a ghia. I know theyre noisy and slow.. but theyre also beautiful. I'm just wondering why they seem to have a bad rep? This one has heated windscreen and an additional heater so fogging of windows is not really a problem. Parts are easy to get arent they as its basically a prettier beatle?

So, is there any other major draw back?

Seweryn

cath28 wrote: »

Parts are easy to get arent they as its basically a prettier beatle?

So, is there any other major draw back?

Not really. The only problem I can see is the specific Ghia parts (body panels, bumpers, etc.) which are not as easy to get as for the Bug.
I covered in a Beetle about 200k km and they are reliable, easy to service and simple. Not fast, but you get further that with any other (single axle driven) car.

PaulK_CCI

A Karmann Ghia is in fact a beetle in an 'Italian suit', and the car is therefore pretty basic. Compared to a Merc that will have power steering, softer suspension, good heating system, etc etc.

I think that is the main reason why people would try to steer you away from a KG. Personally I think there is nothing wrong with them, once you know exactly what you can expect.

The shape is very much a hate it or love it car. Some people think they're ugly. other think they're gorgeous.

On the plus side, engines are in the back, so steering is always very light in a beetle/Ghia, so you wouldn;t need PS. Heating and windscreen demisting is a bit cumbersome in a Beetle/Ghia, but you get used to it very quickly. Performance, these cars are nippy enough to drive in modern traffic well enough, but if you need to travel up and down the country in it, long journeys can become tiresome, becaus engines rev higher (no 5 speeds ofcourse).
Parts availabitly is excellent as everything is Beetle, so servicing, maintenance etc is very cheap. Some body panels are tricky and bumpers are very hard to find!!! So make sure they are good.

One you are happy with a more basic way of driving, there is nothing to stop you from gettin one.

hi5

cath28 wrote: »

Parts are easy to get arent they as its basically a prettier beatle?

I agree,sound insulation can easily be fitted under the carpets and painted on to the underside to make it quite.
Engines can be made almost as fast as you want.
There are thousands of custom parts available also,see companies like EMPI.http://www.empius.com/2010_catalog/vw_parts.html
I think there is also a parts supplier in Tipperary.

I think some view them as a sort of girls car.Didnt Marian Keyes or someone have one featured in one of her aga sagas:D

cath28

Thanks for that everyone.. I did see the 'Beetle in an Italian Suit'comment in one of your older posts whan I searched the form and it gave me a laugh.. but then again.. Italian suits are great when theyre worn properly;)
I have driven this one twice, and the second time for long enough to get fairly used to it.. I am a bit worried about the comment about the steering should be light, as it definatly wasnt, even taking the lack of power steering into account...

The body on this one is fairly perfect.. so thats ok

As for a girly car.. well thats fine by me as I am of the fairer sex.. BUT the Marrion Keys thing has my hair standing on end. Cant stand her!!

I will have to drive to cork and back from time to time, which had me favouring the comfort etc of the Merc.. which I also really like ( two door, pillarless etc..). But now I find out here it will have to be NCT'd every year has complicated things in my muddled head. I think I'll get a mechanic to look at the merc and give me a reasonable estimation of what it will cost to get it NCT ready, then decide.. I do love the look of the ghia but its alot more expensive ad less comfy so I have to consider that..

Thanks so much for all your help everyone. I never thought it would be so complicated to buy a classic, but thank god I'm getting the info I need here.

Ali Babba

From a practical, everyday usage point of view i'd say the Merc would be the way to go. You should find a pre-80's Merc coupe to avoid the NCT and avail of the cheap road tax.

deckie27

I think i know the ghia your looking at (does it have a diesel heater)
If it is its a prime example of the model and has alot of love lavashed on it by the current owner

cath28

deckie27 wrote: »

I think i know the ghia your looking at (does it have a diesel heater)
If it is its a prime example of the model and has alot of love lavashed on it by the current owner[/Q


It does have an additional heater, its blue and white and I would imagine it has been loved lots by the owner. Its on clasic carsales.ie at the moment. Is it the same one?

I love the car to look at but its pretty hard to drive with the lhd etc and it is fairly heavy steering. A totally different driving experience obviously to the big comfy merc-and alot more expensive! But maybe not if you factor in tax till Nov 2011, ncts etc..

cath28

Ali Babba wrote: »

From a practical, everyday usage point of view i'd say the Merc would be the way to go. You should find a pre-80's Merc coupe to avoid the NCT and avail of the cheap road tax.

I have looked for a Merc coupe pre 80 but cant see any on sale. Do you know of any?

deckie27

Thats the one

LHD is not an issue when you get used to it.
Last year I drove a 50's LHD beetle as my daily car
It only comes an issue going into carparks which envolves leaning out the passenger window or getting out
The ghia steering shouldn't be very heavy but if your stationary turning the wheel it may feel heavy

cath28

deckie27 wrote: »

Thats the one

LHD is not an issue when you get used to it.
Last year I drove a 50's LHD beetle as my daily car
It only comes an issue going into carparks which envolves leaning out the passenger window or getting out
The ghia steering shouldn't be very heavy but if your stationary turning the wheel it may feel heavy

Well, to be honest after a while driving it ( and having never driven a LHD here before) I was supprised it wasnt so bad..

But what about overtaking on motorways? ( And yes, I have been slagged that with that car I wont be doing any overtaking!!) And joining motorways from slip roads.

Also how do you think the ghia would be on long journeys?

galwaytt

cath28 wrote: »

But what about overtaking on motorways? ( And yes, I have been slagged that with that car I wont be doing any overtaking!!) And joining motorways from slip roads.

Also how do you think the ghia would be on long journeys?

LOL, your friends are right, you won't have much cause to ever venture into the outside lane !!

It's fine for longer journey's.....if you undertake them as you would have when the car was new.......for 70mph cruising. Forget 60mph. More like 50, tbh. Set out a 1/2 hour earlier, and take your time, and you'll have no bother.

If you try to drive it like a Focus/206/Yaris, you'll kill it. You need to get in to the mentality of the age that built it.

Then, it'll be fabulous.

Oh, and btw, I think they're gorgeous cars.

aidhan

cath28 wrote: »

I have looked for a Merc coupe pre 80 but cant see any on sale. Do you know of any?

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/1234603

shaywest

great car suprisingly nippy but beware they can be heavy on juice and check for rust around the floorpan espesially under the seats

deckie27

galwaytt wrote: »

LOL, your friends are right, you won't have much cause to ever venture into the outside lane !!

It's fine for longer journey's.....if you undertake them as you would have when the car was new.......for 70mph cruising. Forget 60mph. More like 50, tbh. Set out a 1/2 hour earlier, and take your time, and you'll have no bother.

If you try to drive it like a Focus/206/Yaris, you'll kill it. You need to get in to the mentality of the age that built it.

Then, it'll be fabulous.

Oh, and btw, I think they're gorgeous cars.

Are you mad a karman ghia will easy sit at least 65mph+ all day long and won't take more than a few minutes longer on a long journey

I don't have a karmann ghia but beetles are my daily drivers

Blue850

Does it have to be a Merc or VW?



Does it have to be a coupe?

Ali Babba

cath28 wrote: »

I have looked for a Merc coupe pre 80 but cant see any on sale. Do you know of any?

Not off hand but I haven't been looking to be honest. Loads of good 123 series about though or consider an SL from the 70's lovely car and a convertible too, they're not making hugh money either.

boatbuilder

Hi, the blue and white ghia you are talking about is mine.

Just want to add some things to the discussion....

Yes, a ghia is not as comfortable as a merc, but I'd hazard a guess that its a million times more beautiful and reliable.

In terms of speed, the ghia will easily keep up and in fact overtake most traffic. IMO, she is at her best at 70mph and the acceleration from 70mph to 90mph is actually pretty nippy.

The heavy steering is a result of having recently renewed the balljoints to the highest quality Lemforder ones which are stiff until broken in.
(Link to how I did it here>>> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392557&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= )

Rust is not an issue on this car as it came from Arizona not so long ago where it spent all its life.

Overtaking on motorways..... this is no problem as the ghia goes 90mph+ and has good acceleration at those speeds. I enjoy the shock on peoples faces as I pass them because the general public's (incorrect) assumption is that "old cars are slow".

The two main problems with any aircooled VW to use as a daily driver are:

1. Windows steaming up in wet weather. This is partly because the ghia has frameless door windows which must be adjusted correctly to keep the rain out. Its also because the VW heating system tends to vapourise water from the road and blow it into the car.
2. The cold. The VW heating system takes a while to warm up so if you're going on a short journey, the first few miles can be a wee bit chilly.

I've pretty much solved those problems by fitting a heated front windscreen and an eberspacher petrol BN2 furnace heater.

Parts availability is easy. Mechanically identical to the standard beetle. You have a choice of Otto or GSF car parts in Dublin and they keep almost everything in stock and most things are dirt cheap.
For any ghia-specific parts, everything is available and I've found that one of the best places to deal with is VW Heritage in the UK or House of Ghia in America. The expensive bits are the body panels because they are so curvy I suppose, but so long as there is no rust and you don't crash it, you're fine!

Someone commented that "if you drive it like a Yaris, you'll kill it".
Air cooled VWs were designed to be driven hard, so if you keep them correctly serviced, they will actually enjoy and be at their best being revved hard and driven fast.
The same air-cooled engines have been used in everything from everglades-style airboats to
hovercrafts and even airplanes and all of these applications involve high, sustained rpms.

I would take people's advice with a pinch of salt because there are plenty of people who will claim to know all about ghias and are willing to diss them, but have they ever even seen one in the flesh or sat in one? I doubt it.

Anyhow, it all comes down to a personal choice at the end of the day. Some people love em, some people don't. I think at different stages in your life, different cars suit you.

I fell in love with the car when I saw it, bought it, used it at my wedding, drive it every day to work all year round and now that I have two kids and many paycuts, I need a boring family car.

Maybe I should get a Merc :rolleyes: Hope I haven't opened a can of worms!

cath28

Blue850 wrote: »

Does it have to be a Merc or VW?



Does it have to be a coupe?

Hi again! Thanks for the pics!

No, doesnt have to be a Merc or a VW, its just having looked at so many cars I really liked but needed too much work done or were buckets of rust- these are the two that are serious contenders in that theyre both lovely cars that shouldnt cause a newbie like me total headaches .( yes, yes I know all classics will have their days.. just not EVERY day!)

As for it being a coupe?.. yeah! In a Merc anyway. I have considered and driven the larger ones like the one above, but theyre just not my taste. Too big for me I think. But there isnt many nice coupes ones around.. well, for sale anyway!

But thanks for pointing me to these all the same:)

cath28

aidhan wrote: »

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/vintagecars/1234603

Thanks for that link.. It looks lovely indeed..
And.. I just happen to be from The Peoples Republic;)

cath28

boatbuilder wrote: »

Hi, the blue and white ghia you are talking about is mine.

Well Hello boatbuilder!!
Fancy meeting you here! Well, now you know I wasnt just wasting your time I suppose:)

emick

Are Karmann Ghia's usually around 12K? I would double check that extra heater works. I had a Beetle with the extra heater but it never worked.

carmad

boatbuilder wrote: »

Hi, the blue and white ghia you are talking about is mine.

Just want to add some things to the discussion....

Yes, a ghia is not as comfortable as a merc, but I'd hazard a guess that its a million times more beautiful and reliable.

In terms of speed, the ghia will easily keep up and in fact overtake most traffic. IMO, she is at her best at 70mph and the acceleration from 70mph to 90mph is actually pretty nippy.

The heavy steering is a result of having recently renewed the balljoints to the highest quality Lemforder ones which are stiff until broken in.
(Link to how I did it here>>> http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392557&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= )

Rust is not an issue on this car as it came from Arizona not so long ago where it spent all its life.

Overtaking on motorways..... this is no problem as the ghia goes 90mph+ and has good acceleration at those speeds. I enjoy the shock on peoples faces as I pass them because the general public's (incorrect) assumption is that "old cars are slow".

The two main problems with any aircooled VW to use as a daily driver are:

1. Windows steaming up in wet weather. This is partly because the ghia has frameless door windows which must be adjusted correctly to keep the rain out. Its also because the VW heating system tends to vapourise water from the road and blow it into the car.
2. The cold. The VW heating system takes a while to warm up so if you're going on a short journey, the first few miles can be a wee bit chilly.

I've pretty much solved those problems by fitting a heated front windscreen and an eberspacher petrol BN2 furnace heater.

Parts availability is easy. Mechanically identical to the standard beetle. You have a choice of Otto or GSF car parts in Dublin and they keep almost everything in stock and most things are dirt cheap.
For any ghia-specific parts, everything is available and I've found that one of the best places to deal with is VW Heritage in the UK or House of Ghia in America. The expensive bits are the body panels because they are so curvy I suppose, but so long as there is no rust and you don't crash it, you're fine!

Someone commented that "if you drive it like a Yaris, you'll kill it".
Air cooled VWs were designed to be driven hard, so if you keep them correctly serviced, they will actually enjoy and be at their best being revved hard and driven fast.
The same air-cooled engines have been used in everything from everglades-style airboats to
hovercrafts and even airplanes and all of these applications involve high, sustained rpms.

I would take people's advice with a pinch of salt because there are plenty of people who will claim to know all about ghias and are willing to diss them, but have they ever even seen one in the flesh or sat in one? I doubt it.

Anyhow, it all comes down to a personal choice at the end of the day. Some people love em, some people don't. I think at different stages in your life, different cars suit you.

I fell in love with the car when I saw it, bought it, used it at my wedding, drive it every day to work all year round and now that I have two kids and many paycuts, I need a boring family car.

Maybe I should get a Merc :rolleyes: Hope I haven't opened a can of worms!

Couldn't have said it better myself, thats a lovely little motor that boatbuilder has got, really orginal and straight car. The only reason I haven't rang to view it is, I'm broke!

emick wrote: »

Are Karmann Ghia's usually around 12K? I would double check that extra heater works. I had a Beetle with the extra heater but it never worked.

They are, for a decent one. But panels and doors are expensive. At least you know one from Texas will be fine.

boatbuilder

emick wrote: »

Are Karmann Ghia's usually around 12K? I would double check that extra heater works. I had a Beetle with the extra heater but it never worked.

The heater works perfectly. Refurbished by myself. The reason they usually don't work is that the rubber diaphragms in the fuel pump and the fuel regulator get brittle with time and stop working correctly. I got new diaphragms from a guy in America who makes them from the correct rubber material and fitted them. After that, its just a matter of renewing all the fuel lines, making sure the glowplug works and then adjusting the fuel flow to the heater (around 10ml per minute).
The only thing about these heaters is that they don't have thermostats....its either on or off.

To be honest, I think 12k should get you a pristine KG. Personally I wouldn't pay that much for a "restored" car. I'd far rather get an honest original one that hasn't had loads of (potentially badly done) repairs.

the airbag man

Hi there

First of all did you ever hear the saying ignorance is bliss? Karmann Ghias were not a very common car in Ireland. Because of this they are not very well understood. The belief that panels and parts are hard to get for them is complete rubbish. Ownership and enthusiasm of early Volkswagens is a bit like acquiring a taste for Guinness - once it gets into you you will tend to stick with it.

I am 38 years of age and in my time have owned many Karmann Ghias - some of which I have restored in the States and imported into Ireland. I'm proud to say I am a hardened fan of early VWs especially the Karmann Ghia- not a major fan of the razor edge version. 1972 KG is not the most practical of any classic car - no power steering, a heater that sometimes works and primitive ignition system.

Owning a Karmann Ghia in modern times really has to be a labour of love. There are any number of websites out there where you can get advice and purchase parts.

Mechanically these are the same as a '72 Beetle - there will be no mechanic worth his salt who would have a problem working on these, as they are so simple. Structurally they rot like hell due to the fact that moisture is blasted through the heater channels connected to the floor pan and outer sills in the form of hot air from the exhaust, thus causing problems for both the Beetle and Karmann Ghia. They particularly rot in the headlight bowls and area of the wing above these, and in the quarter panels both front and rear of the back wheels, and the floor pans (more so towards the back).

I can understand you when you say they are very beautiful as I too believe so - convertible being my preference - and do not know of any car in the history of cars that has similar lines. Having worked on these cars and having acquired a vast knowledge of them my advice would be don't even think of restoring one as you will never be finished - instead gather your money together and buy some other mans hard work from UK or even better sunny California (where they have escaped our moist climate and the dreaded rust bug (excuse the pun!))

A website to have a look at is www.rccimport.co.uk

Regards

Keith

Alfasudcrazy

I once thought the karman Ghia was a neat classic but now I think its ugly - partly I am sure influenced by the numerous very tatty ones I have seen.

If I wanted to experience a classic air cooled VW it would have to be the fast back but these are so rare and most of those that still exist have been horribly modified.

I have given up searching for a fastback and lately have been scanning the ordinary beetles for sale. Plenty of those about many in brilliant and unmodified condition.

I recall reading once that the Karmann Ghia was not in fact built by VW at all but by Karmann themselves and that their quality control and especially corrosion protection was well below the VW standard of the day. Perhaps that is the reason many advise steering clear of them.