Unions can't even agree to this....you know its time to leave

Mapsis

You know its time to leave when the Unions cant even agree on "no pay cuts until 2014"

What sort of peolpe are we dealing with here. If someone offered anyone in this (****ed) economy no pay decreases until 2011 they'd snap the hand off ya to sign it...and prob sign it in their kidss blood.

This is the sort of **** we have to deal with..the deal of the century is put on a plate and people are still turning their noses up at it.

The civil service will have to be halved before Ireland is out of these woods and people better start realising that sooner rather than later. People need to cop on. This is gonna be the slowest recovering in history because people cannot face up to what needs to be done!

No person in the private sector is in a union any more and if they are...then they are keeping damn quiet about it.

aoboa

The proposed agreement allowed for paycuts.
There was no real guarantee that there would be no more paycuts until 2014.

steof1984

Mapsis wrote: »

!

No person in the private sector is in a union any more.

What a Stupid Statement

ixoy

aoboa wrote: »

The proposed agreement allowed for paycuts.
There was no real guarantee that there would be no more paycuts until 2014.

That's correct but the fiscal situation is so bad that there's just no feasible way not to have this clause in. Perhaps some clarification on under what conditions this might be exercised would have been helpful.

Head The Wall

aoboa wrote: »

The proposed agreement allowed for paycuts.
There was no real guarantee that there would be no more paycuts until 2014.

Even God himself couldn't guarantee that.

Although it seems like the Teaching unions want a guarantee that they will get a payrise !!

ParkRunner

aoboa wrote: »

The proposed agreement allowed for paycuts.
There was no real guarantee that there would be no more paycuts until 2014.

Also pensions of existing staff will be reviewed in the Spring, which can only mean one thing really.

murf313

oh so if we half the civil service that will be the end to the country's woes..... problem solved :eek:

Riskymove

ixoy wrote: »

That's correct but the fiscal situation is so bad that there's just no feasible way not to have this clause in. Perhaps some clarification on under what conditions this might be exercised would have been helpful.

exactly .....the agreement is basically

no more paycuts

increments still in place

no compulsory redundancies

involvement in review of pensions arrangements

review of pay in due course to see if any of the cuts can be restored


where else would this be on the table? it is mainly down to Union leaders raising expectations of restoring pay that has people upset at a perceived caving in.

douglashyde

murf313 wrote: »

oh so if we half the civil service that will be the end to the country's woes..... problem solved :eek:

No we just pay them half of what we pay them now.

Seriously thought - they say that the Teacher's Union is split on pay reform. Judging by this, you'd have to worry that a lot of our Teacher's are not fit to teach basic Math!

We are all going to fight our own corner - if we ( the private sector ) where in the same situation as the civil servants of this country - we would be doing the exact same thing and we to would be unreasonable. . . What you really need is strong fearless leadership on the Goverements part to tell these guys "No"

Idbatterim

The goverment should cut tax relief on union dues! how much extra would that cost the average union "subscriber" per annum?

NUIG_FiannaFail

I agree completely with the OP. We all need to put our shoulder to the wheel and accept cuts for the good of the country. We need to take harsh medicine for the long term good. We need a functioning banking system and a competitive economy. Taxes have to stay low to keep investors in the country.

RichardAnd

douglashyde wrote: »

We are all going to fight our own corner - if we ( the private sector ) where in the same situation as the civil servants of this country - we would be doing the exact same thing and we to would be unreasonable. . . What you really need is strong fearless leadership on the Goverements part to tell these guys "No"

But they won't do that because they know it will cost them votes if they crack down on unions. THe government's primary concern is getting re-elected and as long as that is so, they will not make the best decisions for Ireland.

therecklessone

Idbatterim wrote: »

The goverment should cut tax relief on union dues! how much extra would that cost the average union "subscriber" per annum?

google: union tax relief

result? €70

NUIG_FiannaFail

douglashyde wrote: »

No we just pay them half of what we pay them now.

Seriously thought - they say that the Teacher's Union is split on pay reform. Judging by this, you'd have to worry that a lot of our Teacher's are not fit to teach basic Math!

We are all going to fight our own corner - if we ( the private sector ) where in the same situation as the civil servants of this country - we would be doing the exact same thing and we to would be unreasonable. . . What you really need is strong fearless leadership on the Goverements part to tell these guys "No"

Exactly. We can't afford to pay these extremist wages when we need more money to re-capitalise our banks and pay back our debts.

NinjaTruncs

I'd be interested to compare this years tax intake to prior years and find when was the last time we took in the same amount as currently, then compare what we paid the PS at same time. I'd say the findings would be interesting, anyone know where to get them?

gandalf

Idbatterim wrote: »

The goverment should cut tax relief on union dues! how much extra would that cost the average union "subscriber" per annum?

Not only should they do that they should also halt collection of subscriptions at source. It may concentrate peoples minds on how much they are actually paying their union masters.

ei.sdraob

there is a tax relief on union dues?

ffs :rolleyes:

learn something new every day

murphaph

The unions should be told to look at the package the greeks have been forced to accept. The IMF ARE involved now officially in supporting a Eurozone country (at the insistance of Germany who are sick and tired of bailing out lax mediteranean countries) which is something a lot of people said would not come to pass!!

The IMF will have been quite demanding in their terms associated with any loan. The irish teacher unions should bear that in mind. The Germans won't allow any bailout of Ireland now without IMF involvement as it would be a double standard. If we don't get our finances in order and need to resort to a bailout (still quite likely IMO) it WILL now certainly involve the IMF. Even the non IMF money that the greeks will get will be priced a few percent above market rates, to "encourage" them to get back on to market borrowing asap. Don't think the teacher unions have a fücking clue about the serious state of the defecit or they do but don't give a fück. Their members need to decide if they are prepared to take the risk and help sink the country even further into the abyss or not.

Idbatterim

If and when we require a bailout, do we know what kind of decisions the IMF would impose? would they be draconian about the measures in their entirety or would they have an indepth analysis, ie. 50% of PAYE workers paying no tax rediculous, too generous welfare, overstaffed underworked PS? Do we have any experience? Would they act as a referee? Is IMF involvement not in the Private Sectors interest? would they not do what the goverment wont / cant?

Fat_Fingers

To answer your question about IMF...

When the IMF makes a "rescue loan" to a government, the money spends no time in the state. It goes directly to the foreign creditors.
However, the debts remain, to be paid off by the taxpayers. Taxes rise, which just makes a bad economic situation worse. Valuable and important services are cut -- precisely when they are most needed. Then, the IMF "advisors" come in and start to make a lot of demands.

For example, they may demand that the government sell off "public infrastructure" and the assets of failed banks to pay off the loans which were used to bail out the bankers .

Prices for assets in a crisis are normally very low. But, a government that can be coerced into bailing out the bankers can also usually be coerced into selling off state assets at values that no private owner would accept.

Fat_Fingers

Ok Ben Dover, fair enough, economics is not really your thing but i do love your films!

Count Dooku

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

To answer your question about IMF...

When the IMF makes a "rescue loan" to a government, the money spends no time in the state. It goes directly to the foreign creditors.
However, the debts remain, to be paid off by the taxpayers. Taxes rise, which just makes a bad economic situation worse.

Taxes will rise anyway – to keep living standards of public servants or to pay off debts and start new life with optimised public services

irishh_bob

RichardAnd wrote: »

But they won't do that because they know it will cost them votes if they crack down on unions. THe government's primary concern is getting re-elected and as long as that is so, they will not make the best decisions for Ireland.

fianna fails way is to try and keep everyone ( especially large voting blocs . pensioners , public servants ) on side but one thing ive been wondering for a long time is how come fine gael are not pitiching soley for the private sector vote , under kenny , they,ve been extremley tame on the area of public sector pay cuts

Head The Wall

NinjaTruncs wrote: »

I'd be interested to compare this years tax intake to prior years and find when was the last time we took in the same amount as currently, then compare what we paid the PS at same time. I'd say the findings would be interesting, anyone know where to get them?

Last year's tax intake was back to 2003 Levels

Bear in mind that teachers wages have been cut to the bone (mythical 20% cut) so they must have all been living in poverty back in 2003

They are earning on average 17.5% more now than in 2004

2004 Salary Scales Here

2010 Salary Scales Here

BeardyFunzo

The unions haven't actually rejected this agreement yet. What is happening is that some unions recommending that when a bollot takes place the agreement be rejected.

So the general population of which ever union will still get to vote and that vote to accept the agreement may still pass.

You have to remember that the people at these conferences are heavily involved in their trade union and they are more likely to take a hard line. The bulk of the numbers that will actually vote on the agreement have not made their voice heard yet.

For example, in my employment, an EGM of the union attended by 2.5% of the full population of the staff passed a vote to recommend rejecting the agreement. I would predict that once put to a vote the agreement will be accepted by the majority of the people in my employment.

The important thing to remember is that when recommending that the membership reject the agreement they aren't calling for the people who negotiated the agreement (i.e. the union heads) to be removed from their jobs. Which is bullsh*t because if the agreement isn't up to scratch then it's the union heads fault.

So this minority of people, hardliners, are calling for the rejection of the agreement because they know it would be accepted if they didn't influence the vote as much as possible beforehand.

Dannyboy83

irishh_bob wrote: »

fianna fails way is to try and keep everyone ( especially large voting blocs . pensioners , public servants ) on side but one thing ive been wondering for a long time is how come fine gael are not pitiching soley for the private sector vote , under kenny , they,ve been extremley tame on the area of public sector pay cuts

From reading NewEra, FG seem far more interested in stimulating the economy, using €18.5 billion worth.
I guess it doesn't make sense to try and stimulate the economy while simultaneously deflating it via wage cuts.
If the economy can be brought back to life by FG, then public sector pay is not the massive dilemma which it currently is.

They seem more interested in public sector reform, elimination of waste, surgical removal of dead tissue, rather than the Fianna Fail favoured butcher method of just randomly chopping off good and bad tissue all together.

Then again, they've also demanded that charges for government services be reduced.
I was shocked to hear that the cost of a driving test had jumped from about 35E (2007) to 75E(2010)!! Then again, you can sit the test in 10 weeks now, compared to 54 weeks when I did it.

Some clarification would be good but I would still happily vote for FG if they simply aim to reform the public sector and reduce waste. They do not have to slash any wages to win my vote.
They need to keep the public sector onside, or else those votes will go to Labour.

A FG/Labour coalition is undesirable imo.

Opium led greed

I don't understand why they can't just change careers if they want higher salary. I changed careers about 10 years ago completely from what I studied in college and worked at for years mainly for salary and job satisfaction and it worked. I had to start at the bottom again but it in retrospect it was the best decision I ever made in my life.

There absolutely nothing stopping these whingers doing the same thing, they aren't contractually obliged to stay teachers for the rest of their life. But doing that might require some hard work and effort, and god forbid having to work in the private sector where they know they wouldn't last a day with this rubbish.

dean21

Mapsis wrote: »

You know its time to leave when the Unions cant even agree on "no pay cuts until 2014"

What sort of peolpe are we dealing with here. If someone offered anyone in this (****ed) economy no pay decreases until 2011 they'd snap the hand off ya to sign it...and prob sign it in their kidss blood.

This is the sort of **** we have to deal with..the deal of the century is put on a plate and people are still turning their noses up at it.

The civil service will have to be halved before Ireland is out of these woods and people better start realising that sooner rather than later. People need to cop on. This is gonna be the slowest recovering in history because people cannot face up to what needs to be done!

No person in the private sector is in a union any more and if they are...then they are keeping damn quiet about it.

would they snap your hand off after there wages has already being cut by 16% or have you forgot that???

dean21

murphaph wrote: »

The unions should be told to look at the package the greeks have been forced to accept. The IMF ARE involved now officially in supporting a Eurozone country (at the insistance of Germany who are sick and tired of bailing out lax mediteranean countries) which is something a lot of people said would not come to pass!!

The IMF will have been quite demanding in their terms associated with any loan. The irish teacher unions should bear that in mind. The Germans won't allow any bailout of Ireland now without IMF involvement as it would be a double standard. If we don't get our finances in order and need to resort to a bailout (still quite likely IMO) it WILL now certainly involve the IMF. Even the non IMF money that the greeks will get will be priced a few percent above market rates, to "encourage" them to get back on to market borrowing asap. Don't think the teacher unions have a fücking clue about the serious state of the defecit or they do but don't give a fück. Their members need to decide if they are prepared to take the risk and help sink the country even further into the abyss or not.

I might be wrong but have we not done more cuts than the greeks?
Did they cut public sector pay??

Flex

dean21 wrote: »

would they snap your hand off after there wages has already being cut by 16% or have you forgot that???

If my wages had been increased by nearly 70%, in exchange for me having to do absolutely nothing extra in return, in the years preceding that cut, I would be.

douglashyde

dean21 wrote: »

I might be wrong but have we not done more cuts than the greeks?
Did they cut public sector pay??

Dean - Benchmarking is what got us into this mess in the first place; but if we where to benchmark I don’t think Greece would be a good choice.

We have a target reduction for the cost of our Public Sector, this needs to be met - what people like yourself and the unions are doing is the equivalent of taking a bandage of slowly.

Then we have the problem of massive inefficiency in the Public Service. Back in 2007 at the height of the boom, the people who averaged 2 weeks sick leave a year, are the people that have jobs today. Phones are never answered. Money was used on frivolous things in all departments.

If the Public Service was a well oiled working machine, you could argue that it is important to keep it that way; but it's not. So not only can we not afford to keep paying you what you are earning but you also don’t deserve it.

Riskymove

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

If the economy can be brought back to life by FG, then public sector pay is not the massive dilemma which it currently is.

public sector pay has no effect on the current issues (i.e. the collapse in tax revenues)

the problem is that as a result of that collapse we have a major, unsutainable, deficit that must be tackled and the cost of the public sector is a significant part of that

any economic recovery will likely be about exports picking up and investment of new companies leading to jobs etc...not a cheaper public service

dean21

Flex wrote: »

If my wages had been increased by nearly 70%, in exchange for me having to do absolutely nothing extra in return, in the years preceding that cut, I would be.

Where did you get the “absolutely nothing extra in return "??
You should be more intelligent than to generalize
Like for god sake you are saying that a person on 28k today was on 9k

dean21

douglashyde wrote: »

Dean - Benchmarking is what got us into this mess in the first place; but if we where to benchmark I don’t think Greece would be a good choice.

We have a target reduction for the cost of our Public Sector, this needs to be met - what people like yourself and the unions are doing is the equivalent of taking a bandage of slowly.

Then we have the problem of massive inefficiency in the Public Service. Back in 2007 at the height of the boom, the people who averaged 2 weeks sick leave a year, are the people that have jobs today. Phones are never answered. Money was used on frivolous things in all departments.

If the Public Service was a well oiled working machine, you could argue that it is important to keep it that way; but it's not. So not only can we not afford to keep paying you what you are earning but you also don’t deserve it.

for the last time benchmarking gave me 3.6% over 7 years or 0.5% a year but i would love to see the reverse of benchmarking as that was manager awarding managers big wage rises

Flex

dean21 wrote: »

Where did you get the “absolutely nothing extra in return "??
You should be more intelligent than to generalize
Like for god sake you are saying that a person on 28k today was on 9k

Average weekly earnings of teachers in 2000 was €644.47. In 2008 it was €946.47 (it would have been higher again in 2009, but the CSO only provides to 2008 as far as I can see). Thats a 47% increase . Not sure what you're referring to regards the "person on 28k today was on 9k"

murphaph

dean21 wrote: »

Where did you get the “absolutely nothing extra in return "??
You should be more intelligent than to generalize
Like for god sake you are saying that a person on 28k today was on 9k

170% of 9k is nowhere near 28k dean

Check your sums!

Riskymove

Flex wrote: »

Thats a 68% increase .

is it?

Flex

Riskymove wrote: »

is it?

My mistake, 47%!

Riskymove

Flex wrote: »

My mistake, 47%!

the cumulative increase in the CPI for the same figure was over 36%

douglashyde

dean21 wrote: »

for the last time benchmarking gave me 3.6% over 7 years or 0.5% a year but i would love to see the reverse of benchmarking as that was manager awarding managers big wage rises

So your wages only increased by 3.6% over seven years? Or are you taking away increases in your grade?

Riskymove

douglashyde wrote: »

So your wages only increased by 3.6% over seven years? Or are you taking away increases in your grade?

he is talking specifically about benchamrking not national pay deals which are a different process

murphaph

douglashyde wrote: »

So your wages only increased by 3.6% over seven years? Or are you taking away increases in your grade?

Yeah, something doesn't add up here. There's no way dean's gross salary increased by just 3.6% in 7 years. What was your gross pay 7 years ago dean, and what is it now?

Head The Wall

dean21 wrote: »

for the last time benchmarking gave me 3.6% over 7 years or 0.5% a year but i would love to see the reverse of benchmarking as that was manager awarding managers big wage rises

What is your position so we can verify that. It's hard to trust any facts from Public sector people because of all the mistruths they do be spouting

Riskymove

Head The Wall wrote: »

What is your position so we can verify that.

murphaph wrote:

Yeah, something doesn't add up here. There's no way dean's gross salary increased by just 3.6% in 7 years. What was your gross pay 7 years ago dean, and what is it now?

see my point above

It's hard to trust any facts from Public sector people because of all the mistruths they do be spouting

:rolleyes:

Ben_Dover

Mapsis wrote: »

You know its time to leave when the Unions cant even agree on "no pay cuts until 2014"

What sort of peolpe are we dealing with here. If someone offered anyone in this (****ed) economy no pay decreases until 2011 they'd snap the hand off ya to sign it...and prob sign it in their kidss blood.

This is the sort of **** we have to deal with..the deal of the century is put on a plate and people are still turning their noses up at it.

The civil service will have to be halved before Ireland is out of these woods and people better start realising that sooner rather than later. People need to cop on. This is gonna be the slowest recovering in history because people cannot face up to what needs to be done!

No person in the private sector is in a union any more and if they are...then they are keeping damn quiet about it.

Largest number of people in Unions in Private Sector (Fact)SIPTU - largest union in country are made up of one third public servants and two thirds private sector.(Public Sector only make up one sixth of the overall workforce).That is why you are all so well off, you got all the wage agreements over the years in a shorter time frame than the public servants got, all fought for by the Unions. Unions also got you the minimium wage and fought for the Working time act to help vunerable sections in the private sector to get all their entitlements.You have been subsidised to the hilt by the State to provide jobs and this has proved to be too much for you. When we had a run on work in the private sector you had to call on all the foreigners you could to fill the jobs.
No matter what you think of public sector the recovery has to come in private sector and you are just not up to it , hence all the job losses. Hope you do not need garda or medical assistance in the near future or the use of any other public service as you seem to want to get rid of 50% of them-Take care now

danman

Ben_Dover wrote: »

Largest number of people in Unions in Private Sector (Fact)SIPTU - largest union in country are made up of one third public servants and two thirds private sector.(Public Sector only make up one sixth of the overall workforce).That is why you are all so well off, you got all the wage agreements over the years in a shorter time frame than the public servants got, all fought for by the Unions. Unions also got you the minimium wage and fought for the Working time act to help vunerable sections in the private sector to get all their entitlements.You have been subsidised to the hilt by the State to provide jobs and this has proved to be too much for you. When we had a run on work in the private sector you had to call on all the foreigners you could to fill the jobs.
No matter what you think of public sector the recovery has to come in private sector and you are just not up to it , hence all the job losses. Hope you do not need garda or medical assistance in the near future or the use of any other public service as you seem to want to get rid of 50% of them-Take care now

That's funny, the unions have done nothing for me.

I work a 60 hour week, no overtime, just a basic salary.
If I don't want to do my job, there are plenty people of equal qualifications and experiance to take over.

I'm not complaining, I like my job and I like being able to pay my mortgage.

I'm not saying that everyone should be like me, but the unions did nothing for most workers in this country.

My father used to work for a semi state company. He found out that he and fellow workers were getting half the wages of similar workers. He went to his union, SIPTU, to get help.
There were only 14 workers in the country in his position.

They never bothered their arses helping him. It went to the labour court and they didn't bother turning up.

Why bother making any effort when it's only 15 subs to the union.

The unions don't help the little man, only themselves.

Idbatterim

Ben Dover, you think all of these union "victories" that make us less and less competitive and more expensive dont come at a price? they win the battle but lose the war!

Head The Wall

Ben_Dover wrote: »

Largest number of people in Unions in Private Sector (Fact)SIPTU - largest union in country are made up of one third public servants and two thirds private sector.(Public Sector only make up one sixth of the overall workforce).That is why you are all so well off, you got all the wage agreements over the years in a shorter time frame than the public servants got, all fought for by the Unions. Unions also got you the minimium wage and fought for the Working time act to help vunerable sections in the private sector to get all their entitlements.You have been subsidised to the hilt by the State to provide jobs and this has proved to be too much for you. When we had a run on work in the private sector you had to call on all the foreigners you could to fill the jobs.
No matter what you think of public sector the recovery has to come in private sector and you are just not up to it , hence all the job losses. Hope you do not need garda or medical assistance in the near future or the use of any other public service as you seem to want to get rid of 50% of them-Take care now

Hey Ben look your Font is shrinking just like your pay packet :D

murphaph

Riskymove wrote: »

see my point above




:rolleyes:

This is the thing...it's hard for us private sector plebs to understand the difference between getting a payrise under benchmarking or just getting a payrise under a "national wage agreement" (whatever that is, it never had any impact on me and I thought I was in the nation, go figure) or just "an increment".

In the private sector it's usually very simple:
If you perform from year to year you get more money (if your employer isn't bust of course!). If you don't, you don't!

The PS seems to have terribly complicated the whole notion.

Mapsis

dean21 wrote: »

would they snap your hand off after there wages has already being cut by 16% or have you forgot that???

Oh, ....I dont suppose I thought about that now to be honest. Maybe I, like everyone else in the private sector is just concerned about keeping their heads down and trying to keep their jobs while having to deal with effective rate pay decreases of 28%....so I think I'd jump at the the chance for only a 16% decrease...as FF used to like to say..and I will edit...on the "alot done. more to do"

"alot cut. more to cut"

Riskymove

murphaph wrote: »

This is the thing...it's hard for us private sector plebs to understand the difference between getting a payrise under benchmarking or just getting a payrise under a "national wage agreement" (whatever that is, it never had any impact on me and I thought I was in the nation, go figure) or just "an increment".

it is not that difficult really

benchmarking was a particular process for public service only, of which there were two reports, one (Benchmarking 1) gave rises (varying from a couple of percent to around 15% i think over 3 years) to most grades, the other (Benchmarking 2) gave mostly no rises and where they di give rise most have been scrapped due to economic climate

they were about benchmarking to private wages etc


National pay deals took place form time to time Partnership 2000, Towards 2016 etc whereby pay was one of the items agreed along with other things

It also applied to some of the private sector btw


Increments are related to how many public servants are paid, i.e. their grade has an incremental scale of points which they move up over time - as discussed many times, there is a performance dependent element but it is weakly implemented.

that scale is what is increased or reduced in response to pay deals or pay cuts as appropriate