Article: Elite civil servants: We deserve a pay rise

zootroid

TOP civil servants earning up to €146,000 a year told Finance Minister Brian Lenihan that their work was so important they deserved a pay rise.

Mr Lenihan subsequently decided to give these 150 key personnel -- along with 450 other senior state employees -- an exemption from the full brunt of the public-service pay cuts.

As part of its campaign against the cuts, the Association of Assistant Secretaries and Higher Grades (AASHG) told Mr Lenihan that their pay of up to €146,000 was "way behind" what was on offer in the private sector.

"Indeed, in other more favourable circumstances, this data would overwhelmingly support the case for an increase," it said in a series of letters to Mr Lenihan and the Department of Finance.

The revelation of the claims made by the senior civil servants is likely to spark further fury among teachers, gardai, nurses and low-paid public service workers, who are now being asked to vote to accept a deal cementing their full pay cuts.

While cleaners in government departments have taken a 5pc pay cut, the 150 assistant secretaries at the top of the civil service had their basic salaries reduced by just 3pc (from a maximum of €150,000 to €146,000).

The leading civil servants also accused Mr Lenihan of interfering with the work of the special body on higher-level pay by saying that the pay of senior public servants was "too high" and there needed to be a "downward revision".

According to the letters -- copies of which were obtained by the Irish Independent in a Freedom of Information request -- the AASHG wrote to Mr Lenihan's department last May, shortly after he had announced the setting up of a group to review the pay of senior public servants.

It said it had "considerable concerns" about the exercise and warned him that it represented an "important cohort of senior management within the civil service".

"We are also keen to emphasise that we are more than willing to make our contribution to restoring the health of the public finances subject only to the provision that this is done in a fair, equitable and transparent manner," its chairman Bryan Andrews wrote in a letter marked "seen by minister".

"The future well-being of the public service is critically dependent on our ability to attract our fair share of the necessary capability both at graduate level and to the senior level positions," he wrote.

Concerns

The AASHG wrote directly to Mr Lenihan last October as it became alarmed about the work of the review body, whose report had not yet been published. It said it wanted a meeting with him as a "matter of urgency" to put forward its "deep concerns" about pay cuts.

The review body recommended an 8pc cut to the salaries of assistant secretaries and other senior public officials -- even after it took account of the scrapped bonus scheme they once enjoyed, which delivered annual payments of around €15,000 each.

Fine Gael finance spokesman Richard Bruton said Mr Lenihan should never have conceded to the demands of the senior civil servants to exempt them from the full public-sector pay cuts.

"I think the general run-of-the-mill person felt that those who have privileged access were getting a better deal, whereas those who were remote from the centre of power were getting it in the neck," he said.

A spokesman for Mr Lenihan denied that he had been influenced in his decision by the powerful positions of the senior civil servants -- and their role in implementing his plan to tackle the crisis in the public finances. He said Mr Lenihan had consistently said he had taken account of their bonus scheme, which amounted to around 10pc of their salary.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/elite-civil-servants-we-deserve-a-pay-rise-2127572.html

The part of the article that caught my attention was how their pay of 146k was "way behind" that of the private sector, something which I think is simply not true. I think it shows a serious lack of judgement on Lenihan's part that he caved into this sort of lobbying.

Permabear

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RichardAnd

Very, very few people deserve that much money every year and asking for more is insane. How could someone possibly want more money when they get 150k a year? If I got that much, 70-80% of it would just go straight into my savings account and never see the light of day again.

But of course, they would probably claim their lifestyle requires it. And they'd probably even believe that an argument like that is a good one.

Nody

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The thing is they are probably comparing themselves with CEOs etc. which would put them "way behind". The problem how ever that they are no where competent enough to hold such a position in the first place but why let reality interfere...

AlekSmart

I think it shows a serious lack of judgement on Lenihan's part that he caved into this sort of lobbying.

For sure !

This story really does have the capacity to do achieve what the PS Unions have thus far failed to do....ie: stimulate some very REAL mass public indignation.

"Let them eat cake" perhaps is the next Statements from this small elite group.

It does also need to be recognised that this group were/are the effective power brokers in Ireland.
The established Civil Service run and direct Government Policy in virtually every field.
The BBC Series Yes Minister was remarkably accurate in its portrayal of Sir Humphrey style characters who merely tolerated their political "Masters".

What we see here is the empowered class moving to protect it`s flanks.

You can bet your sweet bippy that when Sean FitzP or David Drumm were settin up their various sweet-deals that a large,sleek and well fed retinue of Senior Civil Servants would have been treated to several big-lunches on St Stephens Green.

Like his new Financial Regulator,Mr Lenihan should have shown these people the door pronto,with a quick adminishment as to what the fluich did they think they were at given that they were the supposed experts who acquicesed and facilitated the economic meltdown Ireland now lives with !

Treason.....you want treason...?....I`ll give you Treason !!!! :eek:

Permabear

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Dannyboy83

I don't see the issue.

It's 150 people.
150 probably very highly and uniquely skilled people.

If they are worth it and could make more elsewhere, then pay them properly if you want to hang onto them.
If you don't need their skills, then don't keep them.

There is no justification for a Guard or a teacher to be cleaning up in the way that they do. There is nothing to make it extremely high skilled or unique.

It works the exact same way in the private sector.
You have loads and loads of regular people on crap pay, then you have a handful of vital people on exorbitant pay.

gandalf

But these guys are the architects of bad governance in the PS. If anything they should be fired for incompetance. Its no wonder the lower level PS are going crazy at the inequality if this is the attitude from those running the PS.

If Brian Lenihan was serious about reform these guys should be the first place he turns his attention to.

Head The Wall

deadtiger wrote: »

But these guys are the architects of bad governance in the PS. If anything they should be fired for incompetance. Its no wonder the lower level PS are going crazy at the inequality if this is the attitude from those running the PS.

If Brian Lenihan was serious about reform these guys should be the first place he turns his attention to.

Politicians and political parties can be voted out. These clowns can't

In my eyes these guys can manipulate data being given to TD's etc and interfere with the political process. I wouldn't trust them at all. All these people are behind the ridiculous ideas peddled to this country - ppars, e-voting etc.

Where's the accountability?

zootroid

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't see the issue.

It's 150 people.
150 probably very highly and uniquely skilled people.

If they are worth it and could make more elsewhere, then pay them properly if you want to hang onto them.
If you don't need their skills, then don't keep them.

There is no justification for a Guard or a teacher to be cleaning up in the way that they do. There is nothing to make it extremely high skilled or unique.

It works the exact same way in the private sector.
You have loads and loads of regular people on crap pay, then you have a handful of vital people on exorbitant pay.

You see I'm not sure that's true either. For example, Patrick Neary wasn't highly qualified or skilled, and yet managed to become the head of the financial regulator. There are people within the civil service who just work their way up without being highly qualified, in the past positions weren't open to the labour market. Now I'm sure this happens in the private sector as well, people are promoted from within. But companies within the private sector aren't funded by the taxpayer.

It would also be interesting to see exactly how many senior civil servants left to take up better paid positions within the private sector over the last 10 years. I would guess that it's close to zero.

AlekSmart

It's 150 people.
150 probably very highly and uniquely skilled people.

It`s only 148 now since the likes of John Hurley and Paddy Neary left,doubtless to pursue new and exciting opportunites in the Private Sector ?.......or maybe not.

gandalf

Head The Wall wrote: »

Politicians and political parties can be voted out. These clowns can't

In my eyes these guys can manipulate data being given to TD's etc and interfere with the political process. I wouldn't trust them at all. All these people are behind the ridiculous ideas peddled to this country - ppars, e-voting etc.

Where's the accountability?

Exactly thats why I call them "the architects of bad governance" because they are the one constant behind the scenes directing things and they have made at best a piss poor attempt at doing their jobs. At worst they with the parties in Government has consigned a whole generation to the scrap heap because of their policies of avarice and greed.

seamus

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

It's 150 people.

It's 600 people.

150 probably very highly and uniquely skilled people.

Eh, no. 150 people who have been where they are for so long and have so much dirt on every TD that they effectively do whatever the hell they like.

There's nothing unique or special about these people. They're not doing jobs that anyone else couldn't do for half the cost. A surgeon - there's someone who's highly skilled and valuable. An assistant secretary is nothing more than a glorified PA.

There is no justification for a Guard or a teacher to be cleaning up in the way that they do. There is nothing to make it extremely high skilled or unique.

What you get paid is not about your uniqueness or your skill. It's about your value. Gardai and teachers provide a valuable service to the state. Security and education are two cornerstones of a civil society. Without either, the state is a shambles - just look at the african nations.

Assistant secretarial duties are not essential parts of a society. Would anyone notice if they stopped working for 6 months? Of course not.

This was a warning to the TD's from their underlings to not cross them lest a whole pile of unsavoury information makes its way towards the media.

AlekSmart

This was a warning to the TD's from their underlings to not cross them lest a whole pile of unsavoury information makes its way towards the media.

A Warning to ALL TD`s,serving and former I should imagine.

Plus more than a few ex-Ministers too.

These creepy suits are merely flexing their silken muscles in the full expectation of the Government blinking....and with it`s past history I should imagine that`s a given.

ei.sdraob

NAMA AND SHAME THEM

if the government were in any way smart the would name and shame this crowd


if the media were in any way smart (hint hint) they would be sending of freedom of information requests now to get the names of these people

if they do such an important job then they wouldn't object to being named in the national media

Dannyboy83

zootroid wrote: »

You see I'm not sure that's true either. For example, Patrick Neary wasn't highly qualified or skilled, and yet managed to become the head of the financial regulator.

Good points.

I would be uncomfortable taking Patrick Neary as the barometer by which to judge these civil servants - not entirely different from taking Fingleton as the barometer by which to judge private sec. workers.

But you did make a good point.
I'm just not sure how applicable the case of Patrick Neary actually is.
From what I understand, he was appointed specifically to be a Yes man, told to sit down and shut up to facilitate the inflation of the bubble by the Irish government.
I would certainly hope that is not the case with other civil servants.

Patrick Neary should have been well paid because he was in a position of immense responsibility.
Again, its a failing on behalf of our government that he has not been stripped of his pension and investigated/prosecuted, and a failing on behalf of the Irish people that we have accepted this from our government without even a protest and continue to do so.

There are people within the civil service who just work their way up without being highly qualified, in the past positions weren't open to the labour market. Now I'm sure this happens in the private sector as well, people are promoted from within. But companies within the private sector aren't funded by the taxpayer.

From my experience in the private sector, the people who have worked their way up have done so specifically because they have acquired the skills along the way, aswell as their work ethic, knowledge of procedure, leadership or some other virtues.
Sure, there have been backhanders and dirty dealings, but not usually into positions of responsibility.

I have no personal experience of the public sector, so I have nothing to compare against, but I certainly hope it would be a similar system.

It would also be interesting to see exactly how many senior civil servants left to take up better paid positions within the private sector over the last 10 years. I would guess that it's close to zero.

During a global recession, I would agree.
Not so sure I would agree when things being to recover and Ireland is still mired in depression (but of course that will probably happen to some extent anyway! even with pay rises et al.)

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

NAMA AND SHAME THEM

if the government were in any way smart the would name and shame this crowd


if the media were in any way smart (hint hint) they would be sending of freedom of information requests now to get the names of these people

if they do such an important job then they wouldn't object to being named in the national media

well firstly Personal information is not covered by FOI

but its hardly secret information as to who they are

Dannyboy83

Oh yea, a civil servant told me in January that the politicians pay is linked in some way to the top civil servants. (not sure how)

So a pay deduction for a top civil servants means a TD will also take a hit.

But that would be cynical!;)

Riskymove

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Oh yea, a civil servant told me in January that the politicians pay is linked in some way to the top civil servants. (not sure how)

So a pay deduction for a top civil servants means a TD will also take a hit.

But that would be cynical!;)

nah, TDs are linked to Principal Officer (PO) who did take the full hit (and therefore so did TDs)

ei.sdraob

Riskymove wrote: »

well firstly Personal information is not covered by FOI

but its hardly secret information as to who they are

what the people of this country are not allowed to know the names of the public workers at the top of the pyramid?

Riskymove

ei.sdraob wrote: »

what the people of this country are not allowed to know the names of the public workers at the top of the pyramid?

not under FOI i wouldnt think but as i say its not secret, if you contacted any Department/Agency and asked who they were you would be told

gandalf

Riskymove wrote: »

not under FOI i wouldnt think but as i say its not secret, if you contacted any Department/Agency and asked who they were you would be told

Its commonly accessible information. Just check any of the Government Department Websites and you will get the names.

Dannyboy83

seamus wrote: »

It's 600 people.
Eh, no. 150 people who have been where they are for so long and have so much dirt on every TD that they effectively do whatever the hell they like.

TBH, I can trot out slogans about plenty of my colleagues in the private sector, but it doesn't make it true.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion when we don't know specifically who they are/what the positions are?

There's nothing unique or special about these people. They're not doing jobs that anyone else couldn't do for half the cost. A surgeon - there's someone who's highly skilled and valuable. An assistant secretary is nothing more than a glorified PA.

That may be the case.
I doubt it tho.

What you get paid is not about your uniqueness or your skill. It's about your value.

You cannot establish value without a measure of frequency.
That's why rare items are priceless. (oil?)

What you get paid is very much about your uniqueness and skill, aswell as your potential value.

Gardai and teachers provide a valuable service to the state. Security and education are two cornerstones of a civil society. Without either, the state is a shambles - just look at the african nations.

Gardaí/Teachers are performing jobs which can be performed by most individuals taken off the street and given a few years training.

Some of the most stupid individuals I have encountered in school became guards. That doesn't mean all guards are stupid.
It just means, there is no particular skill or attribute required of an individual not possessed by most individuals.

Assistant secretarial duties are not essential parts of a society. Would anyone notice if they stopped working for 6 months? Of course not.

Perhaps you are correct. But I doubt it somehow.

This was a warning to the TD's from their underlings to not cross them lest a whole pile of unsavoury information makes its way towards the media.

Seems rather sensationalist to me.
Sounds too much like the stonecutters guild.
You apply to join the public service, you are not born into it by way of a special tattoo.
You could go and join tomorrow, it doesn't mean you have joined some secret organisation with a hidden agenda.


To me, it just looked like people who have acquired high skills and education want their just rewards for doing so, otherwise they plan to take their skills elsewhere.

Perhaps I am being naive?
Perhaps you are being too conspiratorial?
Or maybe somewhere in the middle?

conorhal

Jesus wept. If these jokers feel that they could earn more in the private sector they should be told, "by all means feel free to seek alternative employment then".
What these guys fail to realize (apart from the fact that their employer is broke) is that, with that private sector salary comes a private sector expectation of performance and results, and a failure to achieve their targets will see them turfed out of their high paid private sector job inside of 18 months. (about the average length of time our CEO's have lasted over the past few years, after successive head honcho's have failed to deliver)

Call their bluff, my bet is that rather then face the prospect of accountability, performance related pay and the expectation that for that sort of money you will be expected to work 25 hours a day, they will back down and return to their simplex crossword puzzles and piss poor policy implementation.

SkepticOne

article wrote: »

The revelation of the claims made by the senior civil servants is likely to spark further fury among teachers, gardai, nurses and low-paid public service workers, who are now being asked to vote to accept a deal cementing their full pay cuts.

While cleaners in government departments have taken a 5pc pay cut, the 150 assistant secretaries at the top of the civil service had their basic salaries reduced by just 3pc (from a maximum of €150,000 to €146,000).

I think senior civil servants will have to take more care in locking away correspondence with ministers in future when they go home in the evening.

InReality

On a semi-factual note assistant-secteraries in govt dept have no relation to the job of a PA. The job role is more akin to a senior manager and they would have a large budget , staff and pretty defined responsibilties. The key problem is not 150 in the civil service but the other 450. The bulk of these are likely to be in the HSE/health sector. This is the sector that employes 200k people and whose budget has gone up faster than any other. The CAG has tried to find out what was the role of many of senior HSE staff was. He failed. Lenihan should have tackled both groups but that 450 seems to be an afterthough in the media reports , when it should be their primary focus.

AlekSmart

To me, it just looked like people who have acquired high skills and education want their just rewards for doing so, otherwise they plan to take their skills elsewhere.

Quite a succinct view of the poor Higher Civils position although there are many new and developing areas where the Highers would I`m sure be welcome with (cash laden) open arms.....Kyrgyzstan is currently in the process of restructuring it`s administrative sector