planning 7 year rule

md12

Hi Guys,

My neighbour has just applied for retention for a business in his garage. He never had permission to build the garage for a start,never mind run a business from it. The garage is built since 2000.He was there before me so i had no idea it was unauthorised. My house is down a narrow lane about a mile long and only wide enough for 1 car. It also has about 6 blind spots and there's already been numerous crashes on it. I have approached him before about it and he told me he was only servicing his friends cars and nobody else. He also stated he would collect the cars himself and reduce the traffic flow.There are 5 houses at the end of this lane already so its quiet dangerous as is. Anyway he has applied for planning for the garage. I was sure he would'nt have a hope but it turns out there is a seven year rule on unauthorised development. The planner says even if he refuses the permission he can't stop him from running the business or increasing traffic flow. I did put in an objection to the application. Anybody ever had issues similar.??????

sydthebeat

the 7 year rule prevents the planning authority from enforcing legal action against a person in order for the ultimate removal of a structure. That is the statute of limitations.

If the applicant applying for permission to retain the garage as a domestic structure or a commercial enterprise?

md12

thanks for the reply. He wants it for commercial use only. Is it possible they can give him retention for the shed but not for the business

md12

does the 7 year rule apply to a structure (built 2000) that is on a very dangerous lane only wide enough for one car with 5 blind spots. The development is to be commercial in a residential area. Surely there's a safety hazard here. PA say they might not give planning but have'nt decided yet.Can a separate org like RSA or envoironment step in??????

Poor Uncle Tom

md12 wrote: »

does the 7 year rule apply to a structure (built 2000) that is on a very dangerous lane only wide enough for one car with 5 blind spots. The development is to be commercial in a residential area. Surely there's a safety hazard here. PA say they might not give planning but have'nt decided yet.Can a separate org like RSA or envoironment step in??????

And do what, exactly?

If a structure is built without planning permission in the year 2000 and it is now 2010 then the 7 year rule prevents the planning authority from enforcing legal action against a person in order to enforce the removal of the structure.

However, this is all based on planning permission, or the lack thereof, therefore, if the structure was constructed and used specifically as a domestic garage for a number of years before the use was changed to commercial then the 7 year rule works in your favour.

If the structure changed use from domestic to commercial within the last 7 years, then through enforcement, the use can be changed back to domestic or retention planning permission needs to be obtained for the commercial as well as a Fire Safety Certificate. Proof of easy access for a fire tender is necessary as part of a Fire Safety Certificate Application...;).

Retention Planning Permission and obtaining a Fire Safety Certificate after the fact are costly items, over €11/sq m each.

md12

the structure is a garage/domestic use unit behind a residential house. it has been used commercially since 2000 but only on occasion. My worry is the lane leading up to it. Its too dangerous even for the residents at the end of the lane. There are 5 houses already at the end of the cul de sac. If planning is granted the applicant can increase the flow of customers as he see's fit.The PA say that even if they refuse permission they can't stop the business as the 7 year rule applies. They did say however he needed to prove he is in operation for the last seven years or more. I realise this is a planning issue but is there any other organisation that would have the power to stop this unauthorised business on the grounds of public safety. I have witnessed numerous crashes on the lane already,the majority of them caused by people coming up to the business.This guy is a neighbour so its a bit of a tricky situation. I objected to the application for retention so i'm in it to the end now

Poor Uncle Tom

Something is niggling me, humour me by answering these:

Why didn't you object to the business starting up in the first place?
Or to the structure being constructed in the first instance?
Does everyone else on the road have the same concerns?

md12

The house and structure wwas built in 2000. My house was constructed in 2004. I was not aware the structure was built without permission. The other residents on the road have skeletons in their closet regarding planning permission. They have structures and alterations done without planning also. I was the only one who had the b*lls to object.They are all locals and know each other quiet well. I'm considered a blow in!!!!!!!!!!!!. The person in question has increased the business over the last year. I approached him and he told me the lane was outside town boundaries and that the speed limit is 80kph.The road by the way is public and maintained by the co co.

md12

Rang an bord pleanala and they say if the road is that dangerous then they would put a condition in to make the applicant widen the road. The seven year rule applies to planning. Road safety is a completely different scenario. They were only giving their opinion of course as they have not recieved an appeal as yet. In fact the local pa have'nt decided yet either.

Poor Uncle Tom

OK, please take a minute a see this from my (an outsiders) point of view. The Structure was built and being used as a commercial garage when you decided to apply for planning permission to put your house on this road.

So when you decided to put your house where it is, you had to weigh up the pros and cons of doing so, one of the major considerations would have been road safety, and regarding road safety the fact that there is a commercial garage on a very poorly aligned, narrow road. The fact that you went ahead with your application meant, to a degree, that you were accepting the situation as it stood at that time. The increase in traffic throughput is unfortunate for you, but should have been considered long before now.

If you have made a valid observation to the planning file and if planning is granted you can appeal the decision to án Bord Pleanála. I would contact the Fire Office with your concerns also, they may put restrictions on the use of the structure also.

mossfort

md12 wrote: »

Rang an bord pleanala and they say if the road is that dangerous then they would put a condition in to make the applicant widen the road. The seven year rule applies to planning. Road safety is a completely different scenario. They were only giving their opinion of course as they have not recieved an appeal as yet. In fact the local pa have'nt decided yet either.

the planning authority are as much to blame for granting permission for 5 houses down that lane if it is so narrow.
if the road was to be widened he would have to get permission from landowners so would it not be a better idea for all the householders to approach the landowners and see if they could get it widened as it would benefit them all. you will have to live beside the guy so do you really want to fall out with him over it?

muffler

I have merged a few of these posts that were running in 2 separate threads.

One thread is sufficient.

Mellor

Does anybody know if it is possible for the PA or ABP to attach conditions to an applications outside of the 7 years limitations.

I am not aware of any such conditions happening before. I am leaning to think that they can't as it would alter the usage that stood years. Or at least nothing major, such as forcing them to widen the roads, which is the councils problem now imo.

md12

That was the impression i got from the Person i talked to in ABP. He seemed to think that it was a road safety thing more so then a planning issue.

littleredspot

I agree with Tom and Mossfort's last posts. But...

If he has to prove he has been running a "business" there for the last few years, is the tax man aware of this? You'd be getting in to really murky water with a neighbour then, which I really wouldn't recommend, especially if the other neighbours don't seem to feel as strongely as you.

md12

I agree. The PA did give planning for the houses on the lane. But its manageable if its only residents using it. Its a different story when a commercial business starts up. As i said before, I was not aware the structure had no planning and it was some time after i had moved in that i noticed the increase in traffic going to this guys house. In my opinion the 7 year rule makes a mockery of the planning system in this country. They make you jump through hoops to get planning and i've seen people walking out of planning meetings in tears. Then they go and include this rule in their planning and development act 2000.

Mellor

md12 wrote: »

In my opinion the 7 year rule makes a mockery of the planning system in this country. They make you jump through hoops to get planning and i've seen people walking out of planning meetings in tears. Then they go and include this rule in their planning and development act 2000.

I understand that your are annoyed about this, but the 7 year rule isn't a planning device, its common to all law across the world. Statute of limitations applies to all crimes and offences, bar a few like homicide, its nothing got to do with the planning act, its basic law. The fact is that most law abiding people only cross this one.

dvdman1

What I'd like to know is..how can you tell if a structure has been there 7 years or more...does the owner have to prove the structures age if he/she is being threatened by an enforcement action?

sydthebeat

dvdman1 wrote: »

What I'd like to know is..how can you tell if a structure has been there 7 years or more...does the owner have to prove the structures age if he/she is being threatened by an enforcement action?

yes

chippers

dvdman1 wrote: »

What I'd like to know is..how can you tell if a structure has been there 7 years or more...does the owner have to prove the structures age if he/she is being threatened by an enforcement action?

Start looking through your old photos!

Gumbo

dvdman1 wrote: »

What I'd like to know is..how can you tell if a structure has been there 7 years or more...does the owner have to prove the structures age if he/she is being threatened by an enforcement action?

Yes.
The person who made the complaint in the first place may have photos to argue against you.
The LA have access to the OS aerial image data base by year so they can see if an extension or structure was there on a given date.
Sometimes google maps,can prove something wasn't there.

The home owner has 2 options. Produce a statuatory declaration and/or photos to prove its there as long as they claim it is.

Metric Tensor

I've seen receipts for construction materials and site deliveries used as supporting evidence previously kceire. How would you view those?

Gumbo

Metric Tensor wrote: »

I've seen receipts for construction materials and site deliveries used as supporting evidence previously kceire. How would you view those?

I'd imagine the Plan Enf guys would have to also consider those as acceptable along with a sworn declaration.

SC024

md12 wrote: »

The house and structure wwas built in 2000. My house was constructed in 2004. I was not aware the structure was built without permission. The other residents on the road have skeletons in their closet regarding planning permission. They have structures and alterations done without planning also. I was the only one who had the b*lls to object.They are all locals and know each other quiet well. I'm considered a blow in!!!!!!!!!!!!. The person in question has increased the business over the last year. I approached him and he told me the lane was outside town boundaries and that the speed limit is 80kph.The road by the way is public and maintained by the co co.

Theres your answer its a public road. Did anyone object to the additional trafi your house is creating? Chaps probably only knocking a living working from home. Leave him be.

Gumbo

SC024 wrote: »

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Theres your answer its a public road. Did anyone object to the additional trafi your house is creating? Chaps probably only knocking a living working from home. Leave him be.

You do realise you are replying to a post from April 2010????

Poor Uncle Tom

kceire wrote: »

You do realise you are replying to a post from April 2010????

Could this be considered The Walking Thread?.....:D