TUI rejects public-sector pay deal

Permabear

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RichardAnd

I'm actually not surprised. I'd be very interested to see how things pan out now.

ei.sdraob

Mr McMenamin compared the €22 billion needed committed to bail out Anglo Irish Bank to the €8 billion currently budgeted for education and asked if there as “something rotten in the state of Ireland”.

quick someone point him out the 20 odd billion per year going to public service and similar amount going to welfare

anyways, so what will happen if some unions reject the deal and some approve of it? what then

?

Welease

At least there was one point on which we can all agree...

"Ictu was strongly criticised by TUI president Don Ryan, who described union leadership as “arrogant” and “out of touch”."

Nody

Welease wrote: »

At least there was one point on which we can all agree...

"Ictu was strongly criticised by TUI president Don Ryan, who described union leadership as “arrogant” and “out of touch”."

Which begs to question what would be an appropiate description of president Don Ryan...

Permabear

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The_Honeybadger

I understand their anger, but for god's sake what do they actually think they can achieve through this. The Gov has guaranteed them no more paycuts, the recession is now over for those with permanent contracts if they had accepted this deal. I'm at a loss as to how they think this will improve their lot.

Nody

donegalfella wrote: »

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But will you not think of the children and our knowledge economy?!

Permabear

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Nody

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well seeing the unions list of demands...

nesf

They've only recommended rejection, they haven't done the ballot yet.

ixoy

What I also can't get over is the sheer unprofessional way a number of them reacted according to that report:

The Minister's speech was punctuated by frequent and loud heckling and booing from the floor.

These are the same people who are looked to instill values in young people (or at least that's what they've claimed before)? It demeans the TUI surely to act like this.

What do others make of saying their cut is 20%, including in that an unpaid pay increase? It seems a bit like massaging the figures. You can hardly count as a cut something you didn't actually have (even if you thought you might).

doc_17

Teachers get paid more because they do more ie they have more kids in each class than those other countries in the above graph.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0909/1224254134422.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/0918/ireland/mhcwidmhidmh/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/news-in-brief-240307.html

But...let the teacher bashing begin!!!!

doc_17

ixoy wrote: »

What I also can't get over is the sheer unprofessional way a number of them reacted according to that report:


These are the same people who are looked to instill values in young people (or at least that's what they've claimed before)? It demeans the TUI surely to act like this.

What do others make of saying their cut is 20%, including in that an unpaid pay increase? It seems a bit like massaging the figures. You can hardly count as a cut something you didn't actually have (even if you thought you might).

The minister wasn't speaking at the TUI conference. She'll get heckled there tomorrow. She was actually speaking to a group of people who accepted the recent pay deal. What'll it not be like tomorrow when she speaks to the TUI.

I realise lots of allegations will be made against teachers because of their actions but maybe we should wait til they commit them first before condeming them for it.

Mister men

They are pissing in the wind.

ei.sdraob

Mister men wrote: »

They are pissing in the wind.

more like pissing against the wind

rightwingdub

Hopefully more pay cuts to come for public sector workers especially the teachers, the delegates who voted to reject the croke park deal are incredibly stupid, even there pupils can do the sums and can see that the country is bankrupt.

gandalf

I am sure the TUI are going to find out what its like to have their wages cut to the bone and beyond now

ixoy

doc_17 wrote: »

The minister wasn't speaking at the TUI conference. She'll get heckled there tomorrow. She was actually speaking to a group of people who accepted the recent pay deal. What'll it not be like tomorrow when she speaks to the TUI.

That's even worse then surely? I can understand their frustration but surely it can be dealt with in a more professional manner rather than a class of 8 year olds at a Christmas panto.

I realise lots of allegations will be made against teachers because of their actions but maybe we should wait til they commit them first before condeming them for it.

I doubt there's much more to hear from them when their starting position seems shakey. They may have larger classes but, as pointed out above, the UK's are larger and the Irish teachers are still paid more (even factoring in the higher-cost of living here - something that isn't factored into my wage!).

nesf

ixoy wrote: »

That's even worse then surely? I can understand their frustration but surely it can be dealt with in a more professional manner rather than a class of 8 year olds at a Christmas panto.

It was the INTO conference and they only rejected the proposal to oppose the reform by 308 votes to 304 or something so it's not like the crowd was overwhelmingly pro the deal or anything.

tunney

doc_17 wrote: »

Teachers get paid more because they do more ie they have more kids in each class than those other countries in the above graph.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0909/1224254134422.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/0918/ireland/mhcwidmhidmh/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/news-in-brief-240307.html

But...let the teacher bashing begin!!!!

But could it not be said that the classes are bigger because more teachers can't be hired because the wages are too high?

ixoy

doc_17 wrote: »

Teachers get paid more because they do more ie they have more kids in each class than those other countries in the above graph.

Well you also need to factor in hours worked per week, number of weeks worked per year (seem to recall the school year is quite short in Ireland) as well as other benefits to get a true picture.

doc_17

Absolutely. But other countries who might have their teachers contracted for more hours are not necessarily teaching more. They just have their admin duties reflected in their contracts which doesn't happen here. On average teachers here spend more time actually teaching their students.

And whoever it was up there who mentioned the UK would need to do some research into the state of teaching and education in general over there.

murphaph

...and also to factor in that the rest of the OECD aren't flat broke like Ireland. Nobody outside the PIIGS countries are in such a bad way as us.

Idbatterim

Did they mention that they pocket 77% of the entire education budget? Or the fact that the PS budget is 20 billion PER YEAR! Ofcourse the Anglo situation is a disgrace, but 2 wrongs dont make a right! Anglo is not getting this money for nothing!

doc_17

Idbatterim wrote: »

Did they mention that they pocket 77% of the entire education budget? Or the fact that the PS budget is 20 billion PER YEAR! Ofcourse the Anglo situation is a disgrace, but 2 wrongs dont make a right! Anglo is not getting this money for nothing!

Yeah that percentage is big but reflects the under investment in other areas - technology, buliding etc

No Anglo is not getting this money for nothing. It's getting it because they wrecked the country

Head The Wall

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah that percentage is big but reflects the under investment in other areas - technology, buliding etc

What rubbish talk that is. There is underinvestment in other areas because of the spend on wages. And if you are not willing to compare your wages to other countries well then you have no right to compare budget spend either.

77% of the education budget is spent on the wages of greedy teachers that only care about the kids :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Typical PS twisting words (I didn't get a pay rise so thats a pay cut or inflation means I'll be taking a paycut)

Idbatterim

I honestly dont think the directors of Anglo purposefully went out to ruin things for alot of people, no one was forced to take a loan! Id blame the regulator more, he is there to stop this kind of thing from happening! I mean your hear Quinn complaining about Quinn insurance being put into administration, this is the same MORON who invested 3 Billion into Anglo shares!

Tipp Man

Idbatterim wrote: »

Did they mention that they pocket 77% of the entire education budget? Or the fact that the PS budget is 20 billion PER YEAR! Ofcourse the Anglo situation is a disgrace, but 2 wrongs dont make a right! Anglo is not getting this money for nothing!

sorry just to clarify are you saying 77% of the entire education budget is spent on wages?? Is this a fact??

Permabear

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murphaph

Tipp Man wrote: »

sorry just to clarify are you saying 77% of the entire education budget is spent on wages?? Is this a fact??

I have seen it elsewhere. Should be easy enough to find the figures.

Idbatterim

I have seen that 77% figure god knows how many times! Im sure it can be easily found!

Cian92

ixoy wrote: »

They may have larger classes but, as pointed out above, the UK's are larger and the Irish teachers are still paid more (even factoring in the higher-cost of living here - something that isn't factored into my wage!).

God, it's a sad day when we try to copy the abismal education system that exists in the UK.

doc_17

Head The Wall wrote: »

What rubbish talk that is. There is underinvestment in other areas because of the spend on wages. And if you are not willing to compare your wages to other countries well then you have no right to compare budget spend either.

77% of the education budget is spent on the wages of greedy teachers that only care about the kids :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Typical PS twisting words (I didn't get a pay rise so thats a pay cut or inflation means I'll be taking a paycut)

Yeah greedy teachers who stay late and come in early (which they don't have to do), some of whom pay for books for their kids due to withdrawal of grants, who take football teams, musicals, drama, debate, field trips, school tours, holidays all out of their own time and none of this is paid for.
Laughable stuff and shows what you know, or don't.


Oh and by the way.... if you are not willing to take into account that irish teachers have larger classes, therefore more work than other countries. and if you are not willing to accept the correlation between higher pay for bigger classes then you have no right to compare wages either. If teachers here had the smallest classes and the highest pay you might be onto something.

But anyway...I'm sure you don't me telling you what your rights are because I certainly don't need someone as ill-informed as you telling me what my rights are.

murphaph

Cian92 wrote: »

God, it's a sad day when we try to copy the abismal education system that exists in the UK.

I think you might be overrating the Irish one tbh. Neither country scores particuarly well against the likes of South Korea.

The UK produces a LOT more homegrown R&D than us (do we have indiginous chip design companies, or communications satellite manufacturers?) so their education system can't be all that bad!

murphaph

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah greedy teachers who stay late and come in early (which they don't have to do), some of whom pay for books for their kids due to withdrawal of grants, who take football teams, musicals, drama, debate, field trips, school tours, holidays all out of their own time and none of this is paid for.
Laughable stuff and shows what you know, or don't.


Oh and by the way.... if you are not willing to take into account that irish teachers have larger classes, therefore more work than other countries. and if you are not willing to accept the correlation between higher pay for bigger classes then you have no right to compare wages either. If teachers here had the smallest classes and the highest pay you might be onto something.

But anyway...I'm sure you don't me telling you what your rights are because I certainly don't need someone as ill-informed as you telling me what my rights are.

My bold. As a rough percentage, how many teachers would you say have put their hands in their pocket and paid for schoolbooks for kids in their classes? I suggest it is a tiny number and not representative of typical teacher behaviour.

Secondly, how much extra work per student can be involved? In my day at least, the teacher sat at the top of the class and taught us all at the same time. How much bigger are Irish classes and would correcting 35 essays instead of 30 be such a big deal?

Idbatterim

But could it not be said that the classes are bigger because more teachers can't be hired because the wages are too high?

Ofcourse it could! this is the whole joke, if they care about student welfare, why not say "cut our wages 5% and take on more teachers"! Their smoke screen and bare face lying is easy to see through!

dan_d

Aaaaaaannnnnnd.....here we are back here again.
The point is not class sizes, or hours worked, or essays corrected, or people pulled from burning buildings (firemen), or drunks mopped up and brought to Beaumont (gardai), or passports produced, or no. of social welfare payments processed, or the amount of "management" done in a week. The point is that we can't afford to keep paying these wages.And the unions and their cohorts have yet to come up with a better (and dare I say it - sensible) plan to save money.
Do you know we've been having this argument for at least 18 months now?

Tipp Man

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ofcourse it could! this is the whole joke, if they care about student welfare, why not say "cut our wages 5% and take on more teachers"! Their smoke screen and bare face lying is easy to see through!

Its a joke that they come out with this student welfare crap all the time, If they weren't getting paid such ridiculous wages for working only 7 months of the year, maybe we could have a proper educational infrastructure and an educational system that we could be proud of. But it didn't happen in the good times so it certainly won't be happening in the bad times

ardmacha

I think you might be overrating the Irish one tbh. Neither country scores particuarly well against the likes of South Korea.

You have a point there murphaph. No doubt you would support introducing South Korean teacher salaries, 50% higher than in Ireland, or South Korean hours, 20% less than in Ireland.

Or maybe not, the only examples acceptable here are those which allow people rant about ridiculous wages and the like.

ei.sdraob

ardmacha wrote: »

You have a point there murphaph. No doubt you would support introducing South Korean teacher salaries, 50% higher than in Ireland, or South Korean hours, 20% less than in Ireland.

Or maybe not, the only examples acceptable here are those which allow people rant about ridiculous wages and the like.

we could start by borrowing their "shooting finance minister for doing **** job" practice

ardmacha

we could start by borrowing their "shooting finance minister for doing **** job" practice

I think that was north of the DMZ! But we could at least deprive guilty parties of Mercs.

WalterMitty

Some teachers start out idealistic and doing things for the kids but in the end they nearly all become consumed with the culture in Irish education. they become moaners and burnt out and their only concern becomes their life outside of school, their pensions etc.
i was watching a news report from these public schools in america that have amongst the best results in world(they get kids from ghettos to universities) and the director of the programme said teachers shouldnt teach longer than ten to 15 years as the vast majority get burnt out or p1ssed off and just counting the days till long holidays and retirement.

Look teaching is important but noting so difficult or special to justify the current salries. Excellent teachers , i mean the best 10% of teachers should probably get much more but for the average teacher the pay is too much in relation to a) international comparison and b) our ability to pay it.

I know many teachers and private sector workers in their 30s. Most of the private sector people are better qualifed and educated (Msc, PHDs ) yet work much longer hours and get less per hour!. Wake up you spoilt brats.

doc_17

doc_17 wrote: »

Teachers get paid more because they do more ie they have more kids in each class than those other countries in the above graph.



http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0909/1224254134422.html

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2007/0918/ireland/mhcwidmhidmh/

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/news-in-brief-240307.html

But...let the teacher bashing begin!!!!

then lets pay em less and decrease class sizes

WalterMitty

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ofcourse it could! this is the whole joke, if they care about student welfare, why not say "cut our wages 5% and take on more teachers"! Their smoke screen and bare face lying is easy to see through!

I never remember teachers striking for the massive inwquity in Irish education between those living in poor areas and those living in middle class areas. I mean innate ability is probably normally distributed and why should 3rd level attainment be so low in poor areas. Now i know theres more to it than the teachers and their home environment and culture has significant impact but surely teachers should be striking for much more resources for early teaching of poor kids as this is the most important age for a child's educational development.
They never striked to get rid of the prefabs etc. only ever for pay and their conditions. If teachers wanted smaller class sizes this could be achieved through further wage reduction and using these savings to recruit more new teachers but the reality is they want to keep high pay and get less work to do/pupils to teach!

Permabear

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ardmacha

If teachers wanted smaller class sizes this could be achieved through further wage reduction

Smaller class sizes and prefabs should be of interest to more than teachers. Why are parents not willing to pay more taxes to ensure progress in these matters. People talk of Finnish standards, but not of Finnish taxes.

Instead, we have a system in which only 16 percent of Leaving Cert candidates do honours maths, 10 percent do honours chemistry, and 8 percent do honours physics. That's hardly up to South Korean standards.

This is a problem with society which does not want these things. Why not propose to restore the pay of qualified maths teachers or pay a higher capitation fee to schools for each student doing these subjects?

FlutterinBantam

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah greedy teachers who stay late and come in early (which they don't have to do), some of whom pay for books for their kids due to withdrawal of grants, who take football teams, musicals, drama, debate, field trips, school tours, holidays all out of their own time and none of this is paid for.
Laughable stuff and shows what you know, or don't.


Oh and by the way.... if you are not willing to take into account that irish teachers have larger classes, therefore more work than other countries. and if you are not willing to accept the correlation between higher pay for bigger classes then you have no right to compare wages either. If teachers here had the smallest classes and the highest pay you might be onto something.

But anyway...I'm sure you don't me telling you what your rights are because I certainly don't need someone as ill-informed as you telling me what my rights are.

You seem to be very sure of your 'rights', what about your responsibilities?

The_Honeybadger

ardmacha wrote: »

Smaller class sizes and prefabs should be of interest to more than teachers. Why are parents not willing to pay more taxes to ensure progress in these matters. People talk of Finnish standards, but not of Finnish taxes.



This is a problem with society which does not want these things. Why not propose to restore the pay of qualified maths teachers or pay a higher capitation fee to schools for each student doing these subjects?

I think if prefabs weren't eliminated in the boom you can forget about it now unfortunately. Our tax system definately needs an overhaul as our dependence on consumer taxes is killing us now that we are in recession and people are not spending. I don't know much about the finnish tax system but do they pay the same level of stealth taxes as we do, I know our income tax levels are low.

On the second point I agree that it is not the teachers fault that students aren't taking these difficult subjects. Something needs to be done about this, more points weighting or something similar, perhaps waive the registration fees and give an automatic cost of living grant to those taking science / technology at third level?

On teachers pay we could squabble all day about hours worked and class sizes and OECD findings, but at the end of the day I think most teachers will acknowledge privately that they get a pretty good deal in this country, average 50k+ salary when the AIW is in the low 30's, incredible holidays and fantastic pension. I have done sub teaching for a while in the past and yes it is a tough enough job, nothing cushy about the hands on part of the job but the perks are very good indeed. Unions have done a great job negotiating on behalf of teachers throughout the last decade and even after the cuts they are in a far better position than they were then. I know these points are simplistic but at the end of the day we are broke, surely even the most hardline teachers can see that, they got a good deal at Croke park which ensured they could keep their pay for the next 4 years and they want to refuse it, really can't see what they think they will achieve if this happens.

Head The Wall

They're standing up for the childers, they'll mind them when we sack all the Gardai, firemen, paramedics etc

oldyouth

doc_17 wrote: »

Yeah greedy teachers who stay late and come in early (which they don't have to do), some of whom pay for books for their kids due to withdrawal of grants, who take football teams, musicals, drama, debate, field trips, school tours, holidays all out of their own time and none of this is paid for.
Laughable stuff and shows what you know, or don't.


Oh and by the way.... if you are not willing to take into account that irish teachers have larger classes, therefore more work than other countries. and if you are not willing to accept the correlation between higher pay for bigger classes then you have no right to compare wages either. If teachers here had the smallest classes and the highest pay you might be onto something.

But anyway...I'm sure you don't me telling you what your rights are because I certainly don't need someone as ill-informed as you telling me what my rights are.

Factor in all that extra activity as hours worked and give me a revised estimate as to how many days a year teachers work. Then give me the average teachers pay. That will give us an idea of how well they are (or not) paid. For fairness, don't quote a junior teachers salary, but give us the average. That will compensate for all the lazy clock watching teachers compared to the fine ones (and they do exist) that put in the extra effort like you have outlined.