Luas in Waterford

Sully

With all the talk of Dublin getting a Metro and with their own Luas line running around Dublin, I thought it might be a nice discussion to talk about, in the unlikely event, Waterford given some form of Luas line.

Where would you have it running? How often?

I'd like to see one from the Railway station, covering the bus station, the clock tower, out towards ardkeen and also out towards WIT. Also would be good to have one covering the back of the town up by Ballybricken etc.

I find the bus service a bit slow and unreliable at the best of times and a Luas would really add to the city.

abouttobebanned

Would it be possible to run one across the bridge with the lifts?

CantGetNoSleep

Could have 2 lines

One starting in Ballybeg, finishing in train station, other starting on Dunmore Road, finishing by the Hypermarket, with both lines meeting somewhere in city centre

ziedth

I think you would def need to service WIT to make the serious doe.

I guess train station-quay-harveys-woodies-wit.

Maybe second line quay-Newtown-hospital-woodlands.

Be very handy but I doubt the dunmore road line would make any money

Asmodean

Interesting idea and one that has often been brought up before as a sort of "pie in the sky" concept. I think that it isn't as ludicrous an idea as I'm sure some people would think. The bus services in Waterford leave a lot to be desired at times ( no buses on sunday for example, or the fact that the buses here are only about half the size of other cities ) which I suppose can be attributed to demand for the service.
There was talk about running a luas/tram line throughout Galway city, which has been laughed off by pretty much everyone and only a handful of politicians are still trying to strive for it. I do think though that a luas type system would be far more beneficial and feasible in a city like ours rather than somewhere like Galway, which has a larger suburban population but the street size/transport infrastructure is much more cramped.
A nice route would be from the train station and in across the bridge, up the quay and out the Dunmore road, with a branching line heading out the mall and out the tramore/cork road.

abouttobebanned

Will someone address my bridge concerns...

Sully

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Would it be possible to run one across the bridge with the lifts?

Perhaps the building of a special bridge? Is there not plans for a pedestrian bridge anyway, maybe it could be integrated into that? The current bridge is simply to busy to use a lane for Luas and not wide enough for construction of a dedicated line (assuming the lift issue could be addressed).

A luas towards Ardkeen IMO would do very well. People going to the hospital, the loads of housing estates, Tesco and bowling etc.

ziedth

I'm sure it wouldn't matter, Luas only travels on a track right? It doesn't have any overhead wires or anything I think.

abouttobebanned

That pedestrian crossing by the tower would be the best thing to ever happen to the city imo.

The luas would be fantastic for the city...but is a bridge too far I think. (apologies)

abouttobebanned

ziedth wrote: »

I'm sure it wouldn't matter, Luas only travels on a track right? It doesn't have any overhead wires or anything I think.

The ones in Dublin all have over head wiring.

ziedth

Ah,

I stand corrected.

foxylad2

instead of reinventing the wheel -
extend the Suir Vally Railway -
think there are already plans to extend it into the city
would be a lot more economical!

Bol_Whelan

Think we should focus on getting a decent bus service that can move people around the city. If travelling from the Dunmore road to the Industrial estate, do you still need to take 2 buses ? If I did not have a car, how would I get to Harvey Norman from Ardkeen ?

A bus service that goes along the outer ring road down the cork road into town and back out the dunmore road in a loop (perhaps in both directions), would do so much for public transport in the city. Much more than a tram covering an already well serviced route.

dayshah

foxylad2 wrote: »

instead of reinventing the wheel -
extend the Suir Vally Railway -
think there are already plans to extend it into the city
would be a lot more economical!

Go from Kilmeaden to Waterford, then along the quay, out to railway square, and then out to Tramore.

Lets face it though, the train station is in a terrible location. Best thing would be to move it somewhere.

merlante

Had some fun with this idea when it came up during the boom. I fear there are two many cities ahead of us in the pecking order, but for what it's worth, the following network would cover a population of 60,000 (Waterford + Tramore + park & ride in Slieverue?). Wouldn't electrify the Tramore one, too much distance for too little population, plus you'd have problems on Rice bridge with wires. Diesel/biofuel engines would do the job.

With the benefit of hindsight, I might add the WIT campus in Carriganore onto the Gracedieu to Brasscock line.

jayboi

What problems do people think would stand in the way?
Personally I think a lot of the streets and roads are too narrow, like the dunmore road for example would their be room for a tram lane?
Would we need 2 lanes for a tram ingoing and outgoing?

If we had a tram in the town id like to see the car parks on the quay removed.
I’d like the reliability of a tram service.

How much did the Dublin one cost?

I remember someone telling me before that there were plans to put the train station down at bilberry back in the day which would of been the job, might have brought a bit of life down that part of town.

Gael23

I'd like to see the line to New Ross open again, maybe not as a train like it was before but as a luas like system. I think that would be particulary popular among older people.

Stan Nangle

A Luas system is really only cost effective when you have a population over half a million or so.

For a City the size of Waterford a solution running on rubber tyres, with its own engine, is the way to go.

These vehicles could run on the roads, in bus lanes, or on dedicated trackways.

The City Council Transport SPC is working on proposals for improving the Bus service in the City, and this will include improving the service in the hinterland (Dunmore, Tramore, Kilmeaden, Portlaw, Mooncoin, Slieverue/Ferrybank, Etc)

They have identified short, medium and long term objectives and some of these will be seen within the next few months.

Trick of the Tail

abouttobebanned wrote: »

The ones in Dublin all have over head wiring.

But they don't have to have overhead power, the same design trams as the Luas are used in some European cities with 3rd rail power.

Only the section of the power rail that has a tram on top of it is switched live, so its perfectly safe.

A.

rasper

nice thoughts but won't happen, we've got some of the worst public transport in the country, e.g Tramore-Waterford every 60mins at peak time , unbelivable, no wonder people can't/won't use it

Trick of the Tail

ryanf1 wrote: »

I'd like to see the line to New Ross open again, maybe not as a train like it was before but as a luas like system. I think that would be particulary popular among older people.

So would I, it wouldn't take much doing as the line is still officially 'open' anyway.

A railcar could be used on the line; judging by the traffic entering Waterford from the New Ross direction in the mornings and trying to enter NR from Waterford in the eves, there seems to be substantial commuter traffic.

A Park & Ride facility around the north quays might work, or extend the line over the bridge and out towards the industrial estate partially along the alignment of the Waterford & Suir Valley Railway.

It'll never happen though!

A.

Dum_Dum

Stan Nangle wrote: »

...

The City Council Transport SPC is working on proposals for improving the Bus service in the City, and this will include improving the service in the hinterland (Dunmore, Tramore, Kilmeaden, Portlaw, Mooncoin, Slieverue/Ferrybank, Etc)

They have identified short, medium and long term objectives and some of these will be seen within the next few months.

I hope the copy and paste job "Waterford City URBAN & COMMUTER BUS TIMETABLE" isn't the shape of things to come.

If you want the buses to work in Waterford you need:
integrated ticketing, timetabling, numbering and branding
timetables and shelters at bus stops
punctuality
family and day savers, timed tickets, encouragement of cashless systems to speed-up boarding
get rid of confusing circular routes
adopt clockface timetables

dayshah

ryanf1 wrote: »

I'd like to see the line to New Ross open again, maybe not as a train like it was before but as a luas like system. I think that would be particulary popular among older people.

But old people don't have to pay, so they won't make it viable.

Its commuters that we need to attract.

merlante

Stan Nangle wrote: »

A Luas system is really only cost effective when you have a population over half a million or so.

For a City the size of Waterford a solution running on rubber tyres, with its own engine, is the way to go.

These vehicles could run on the roads, in bus lanes, or on dedicated trackways.

The City Council Transport SPC is working on proposals for improving the Bus service in the City, and this will include improving the service in the hinterland (Dunmore, Tramore, Kilmeaden, Portlaw, Mooncoin, Slieverue/Ferrybank, Etc)

They have identified short, medium and long term objectives and some of these will be seen within the next few months.

Possibly, but there are much smaller cities <100,000 people with tram systems.

For example,
Frankfurt-am-Oder, Germany
Population: 61,286
1 Tram line: http://www.vbbonline.de/download/pdf/liniennetze/141208_Frankfurt.pdf

Görlitz, Germany
Population: 56,461
2 Tram lines:
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/goer/goerlitz.htm

The population Waterford/Tramore is 60,000 and growing quickly.

I think what makes the investment more worthwhile in the Irish context is that Irish cities are small but growing very quickly. The German cities mentioned are either in decline or are stagnating. Furthermore, they are near the bottom of the urban hierarchy as opposed to near the top, as in Ireland. An urban centre of 50,000-100,000 people is Ireland is a regional capital, and principle centre for a population of 350-500,000.

The idea that public transport should pay for itself, particularly from the get go, is a very anglo-saxon view. In other countries, public transport is seen as something you should just do because it's a good thing.

I do accept though that there are a lot of things we need to do in this country before we build tram lines in Waterford. For starters, a bus system that is almost 100% reliable, linked up with integrated, time based or `total-journey' based ticketing would go a long way. People do, however, much prefer trams, and I think that trams offer the most attractive prospect for commuters and the best hope of getting people out of their cars.

dayshah

I wonder if the hill situation is important. Waterford is a bit more hilly than Dublin.

Partizan

A stupid and pointless thread. For a population the size of Waterford there is absolutley no need for a Luas like service in Waterford city. What is needed is proper integrated public transport between bus and rail. The first port of call for blame lies with IE & BE. There is absolutley no link up or joined up integrated transport link between the two. Both IE and BE are in competition between the two which should not happen.

First rail lines are there, to Dublin, Limerick, New Ross and Rosslare. New Ross line has been shut since the mid 1990s and the Rosslare line has been deliberatly run into the ground. The Waterford to Limerick Junction service is being scaled back and run on times that would be an inconvenience to many people. What I am getting at here is the root of the problem...commuter rail. It doesnt exist. Why cant there be a regular and reliable service from New Ross, Campile, Kilmac, Clonmel-Carrick and Thomastown? If we get that right and implement bus corridoors in Waterford city then Waterford and the South East has a reliable and cost effective transport service. Building Luas lines from Ballybeg and Dunmore Road would be a waste and divert much needed service away from vital capital rail projects.

In short the following should be done:
1) Bus corridors in Waterford city and regular buses from Waterford to Tramore and the surrounding townds and villages.
2) Reopen Waterford to Kilmac line with intermediate stations at Kilmac, Park & Ride at Kilmeaden, WIT Carriganore and Plunkett station with connecting bus from rail station to the city.
3) Provide regular 2 hourly services from Clonmel to Waterford and onto Wexford with linking trains to/from Dublin. Connecting buses to meet these services.

Would cost the guts of 60-80 million euro but for that you would get a top class public transport service.

merlante

Partizan wrote: »

A stupid and pointless thread.

Why bother commenting then?

Some people like the idea. I just pointed out two other cities of more or less the same size which have tram lines, so your opinion on what a city the size of Waterford 'needs' is just that, your opinion.

Agree with your comments on Iarnrod Eireann. What you're suggesting would not be cheap either though.

THall04

Partizan wrote: »

A stupid and pointless thread. For a population the size of Waterford there is absolutley no need for a Luas like service in Waterford city. What is needed is proper integrated public transport between bus and rail. The first port of call for blame lies with IE & BE. There is absolutley no link up or joined up integrated transport link between the two. Both IE and BE are in competition between the two which should not happen.

First rail lines are there, to Dublin, Limerick, New Ross and Rosslare. New Ross line has been shut since the mid 1990s and the Rosslare line has been deliberatly run into the ground. The Waterford to Limerick Junction service is being scaled back and run on times that would be an inconvenience to many people. What I am getting at here is the root of the problem...commuter rail. It doesnt exist. Why cant there be a regular and reliable service from New Ross, Campile, Kilmac, Clonmel-Carrick and Thomastown? If we get that right and implement bus corridoors in Waterford city then Waterford and the South East has a reliable and cost effective transport service. Building Luas lines from Ballybeg and Dunmore Road would be a waste and divert much needed service away from vital capital rail projects.

In short the following should be done:
1) Bus corridors in Waterford city and regular buses from Waterford to Tramore and the surrounding townds and villages.
2) Reopen Waterford to Kilmac line with intermediate stations at Kilmac, Park & Ride at Kilmeaden, WIT Carriganore and Plunkett station with connecting bus from rail station to the city.
3) Provide regular 2 hourly services from Clonmel to Waterford and onto Wexford with linking trains to/from Dublin. Connecting buses to meet these services.

Would cost the guts of 60-80 million euro but for that you would get a top class public transport service.

I agree , bit of a pointless thread , but the sad fact is we had what would now be called a sub-urban rail , park and ride service.....but it got closed down fifty years ago.....back then it was called the Tramore Train.

Imagine how the development of Waterford would have changed if they kept it open , there'd be houses all the way out to Tramore and the Dunmore road would be countryside

dayshah

Some people are probably thinking, 'Dublin has 1million people and only 2 tram lines, so what can Waterford expect with 50,000'. However we should bear in mind the generally woeful public transport in Dublin.

In contrast Brussels has a similar population to Dublin, 6 metro lines and about 15 tram lines. Thats roughly 1 line per ...
50,000 people!!!

I would prioritise the "Green Route" however, and have a decent network of cycleways, replace Kenneallys with a decent service, put timetables in bus shelters, GPS bus tracking, integrated ticketing etc. Then I would think about a kilmac to Waterford to Tramore line.

Partizan

dayshah wrote: »

Some people are probably thinking, 'Dublin has 1million people and only 2 tram lines, so what can Waterford expect with 50,000'. However we should bear in mind the generally woeful public transport in Dublin.

In contrast Brussels has a similar population to Dublin, 6 metro lines and about 15 tram lines. Thats roughly 1 line per ...
50,000 people!!!

I would prioritise the "Green Route" however, and have a decent network of cycleways, replace Kenneallys with a decent service, put timetables in bus shelters, GPS bus tracking, integrated ticketing etc. Then I would think about a kilmac to Waterford to Tramore line.

It simply would not be feasable to reopen the line to Tramore. Much of the old alignment has been built upon and where the old station stood in Railway Square is now occupied by an apartment block. If you want to rebuild the Tramore line, what alignment would you use, where would you put the level crossings, how do you overcome the topography and where would you now put the stations? It would cost hundreds of billions to build just 10km of track needed. It woudl be better value for money to reopen 1) Put in a decent bus service in the city which would serve Tramore, Dunmore, Ballygunner, Passage, the city itself with bus lanes and 2) Reopen the Waterford - Dungarvan line as far as Kilmac (Stations at Kilmac, Kilmeadan Park & Ride, WIT Carriganore, Waterford South) for a fraction of the cost. A new train station could be built where the halting site is now or on the site of the old Foundry and have shuttle buses from Waterford South to Plunkett Station, the city and bus station.

Now that would be better value for money.

merlante

Partizan wrote: »

It simply would not be feasable to reopen the line to Tramore. Much of the old alignment has been built upon and where the old station stood in Railway Square is now occupied by an apartment block. If you want to rebuild the Tramore line, what alignment would you use, where would you put the level crossings, how do you overcome the topography and where would you now put the stations? It would cost hundreds of billions to build just 10km of track needed. It woudl be better value for money to reopen 1) Put in a decent bus service in the city which would serve Tramore, Dunmore, Ballygunner, Passage, the city itself with bus lanes and 2) Reopen the Waterford - Dungarvan line as far as Kilmac (Stations at Kilmac, Kilmeadan Park & Ride, WIT Carriganore, Waterford South) for a fraction of the cost. A new train station could be built where the halting site is now or on the site of the old Foundry and have shuttle buses from Waterford South to Plunkett Station, the city and bus station.

Now that would be better value for money.

Hundreds of billions? I really think we have a skewed idea of how much things cost because of what we paid for things during the boom when labour was expensive and government contracts were very generous.

Trams, such as the Luas can go on streets or on ordinary tracks where they exist.

I'm not pushing the tram idea ahead of everything else, just pointing out that it wouldn't cost *that* much.

Partizan

This is what I think shoudl happen regarding public transport to Waterford:

Commuter Rail:

Kilmacthomas - Waterford South
Stations at Kilmacthomas (P&R), Kilmeaden/Ballyduff (P&R), WIT Carriganore, Waterford South. 5 trains each way every day. 3 in the morning and 2 in evening.

Shuttle buses from Waterford South to Waterford Plunkett, Waterford Bus Station. Buses from Waterford South to city routes.

Clonmel - Waterford Plunkett
Stations at Clonmel, Kilsheelan, Carrick-on-Suir, Fiddown/Piltown, Waterford Plunkett. Regular trains at 2 hourly intervals to/from Clonmel & Limerick Junction. Link up with trains to/from Dublin. Shuttle buses to/from Waterford South, Bus Station and Tramore.

Wexford - Waterford Plunkett

All Intermediate Stations to/from Wexford. 2 hourly service from 06.30. Link up with trains to/from Dublin and Limerick Junction. Shuttle buses to/from Waterford South, Bus Station and Tramore

Bus:

Bus Lanes to be introduced in Waterford City. Regular bus services for city services and for services from Waterford to Tramore, Dungarvan, Dunmore East, Ballygunnar and Passage. Interconnecting buses to rail stations.

Only major costs would be reopening of line to Kilmac (allignment already there). Halts and loops at Kilmac, Kilmeaden, WIT Carriganore, new station at Waterford South on Bilberry side. 3-4 extra trains, 6-8 sets of 3 car 27k's and extra buses.

wellbutty

For me, step one would be mass pedestrianisation of the city center, possibly the area inside Gladstone Street, The Quay, The Mall, Parnell Street, Castle Street, Stephen Street. The exception would be deliveries and direct access to car parks.

This would then force people to look at alternatives. Then we can talk public transport. I think Park and rides with buses would suffice for a city of Waterford's size. Ferrybank, Newrath, Knockboy, Ballindud, Kilmeaden.

Trains and trams are expensive to build and maintain and in a city center that might employ 15000 people coming from all directions, I think it would be impossible to design a service that people would find interesting. Also, our city center is tiny and the thought of trams and dedicated bus lanes mixed up with car lanes is scary.

dayshah

Feck it, lets go the whole hog and get a 10 line metro

Also have an outdoors escalator up Patrick St. I'm fed up of having to walk up to Ballybricken.

dayshah

wellbutty wrote: »

Trains and trams are expensive to build and maintain and in a city center that might employ 15000 people coming from all directions, I think it would be impossible to design a service that people would find interesting. Also, our city center is tiny and the thought of trams and dedicated bus lanes mixed up with car lanes is scary.

Not as scary as bike lanes and bus lanes together. From the Quay to WIT is fairly broad. Just add 1.5m to the footpath on one side and make it a cycle-lane separated from the road. This would be safe for cyclists and take cars off the road.

Similarly around the old ring road.

kingstapler

WIT definetly. Mmm...well seen as this is all fanciful, maybe a circular route around the city, with sputs to WIT and the Ardkeen area. It would be ideal to have a spur linking the railway station as well but getting overhead wires onto a lifting bridge might present a bit of a challenge...

giles lynchwood

abouttobebanned wrote: »

Will someone address my bridge concerns...

Build a Martin Cullen tunnel under the river :cool:

merlante

giles lynchwood wrote: »

Build a Martin Cullen tunnel under the river :cool:

Yeah, because Cullen really bankrupted the country on Waterford investment...

Dum_Dum

giles lynchwood wrote: »

Build a Martin Cullen tunnel under the river :cool:

Yawn.

Can't mention any kind of investment in Waterford without Martin Cullen being brought up. People seem to think he brought a disproportionate amount of investment into Waterford; I wish he did - then all this labourious ridicule would be worth it.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Not as scary as bike lanes and bus lanes together. From the Quay to WIT is fairly broad. Just add 1.5m to the footpath on one side and make it a cycle-lane separated from the road. This would be safe for cyclists and take cars off the road.

Similarly around the old ring road.

I actually think that cycle lanes on footpaths are a disaster. I think you need the lanes to be on the road, like on the Old Kilmeaden rd. Even though motorists often disrespect cycle lanes on the road, there are not as bad as dog walkers, joggers, etc.

People who commute on a bike are pretty serious about getting somewhere and having to slow down for or go around random people wandering between the cycle lane and the footpath is pretty annoying and potentially dangerous.

Best solution is to have the cycle lanes on the road, but with a separator or curb of some kind. Ideally a few trees!

Cabaal

merlante wrote: »

Best solution is to have the cycle lanes on the road, but with a separator or curb of some kind. Ideally a few trees!

Fully agree, cycle lanes on footpaths are retarded and clearly thought out by people who don't cycle

bluesfan

Cabaal wrote: »

Fully agree, cycle lanes on footpaths are retarded and clearly thought out by people who don't cycle

or walk

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Best solution is to have the cycle lanes on the road, but with a separator or curb of some kind. Ideally a few trees!

I think on-road with a barrier works. As for on footpath, do you use a bell? I'm fond of the on-path lane.

Personally I think having a no-car cyclelane on a road is like having a no-pi$$ing area in a swimming pool.

tonc76

IE and BE have no money to expand either service and will have no money for the foreseeable future. Both have been running at a loss for years at this stage.

The cycletrack along the Mall won't work either as in order to do this car parking spaces would be lost leading to a loss of revenue for WCC. Same applies to the Quay. There is also no room on Parnell St for a cycletrack so it would start and end on the Mall and as a result would not be used..

On road cycletracks are far more dangerous for the cyclist than off road. Segregated cycletracks/footpaths (white marking) only work if both cyclists and pedestrians know how to use them. Shared cycletracks/footpaths however are a disaster as no one knows who has "right of way".

dayshah

tonc76 wrote: »

The cycletrack along the Mall won't work either as in order to do this car parking spaces would be lost leading to a loss of revenue for WCC. Same applies to the Quay. There is also no room on Parnell St for a cycletrack so it would start and end on the Mall and as a result would not be used..

I can't see how you can say it 'won't work' when the only downside you point out is a reduction in parking spaces. That could be made up for elsewhere.

As for Parnell St., how wide do you think bikes are? Sure we lose a few car spaces, but its just about priorities.

tonc76

dayshah wrote: »

I can't see how you can say it 'won't work' when the only downside you point out is a reduction in parking spaces. That could be made up for elsewhere.

As for Parnell St., how wide do you think bikes are? Sure we lose a few car spaces, but its just about priorities.

It won't work because one of WCC's priorities is to generate revenue

merlante

tonc76 wrote: »

It won't work because one of WCC's priorities is to generate revenue

But sure the spaces removed can appear elsewhere. The council/Waterford Crystal/the government are building a large extension to the car park off Lombard st. as part of the new Waterford Crystal showroom/factory. These spaces with increase revenue. Having car parking on Mall has had its day, imho. Looks bad and it's not even easy or desirable to park there. The Mall should be the 'showey' st. of Waterford.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

I think on-road with a barrier works. As for on footpath, do you use a bell? I'm fond of the on-path lane.

Personally I think having a no-car cyclelane on a road is like having a no-pi$$ing area in a swimming pool.

Speed limits are in the same category, but those get enforced don't they? All it would take would be a couple of penalty points, etc. for cars parked, or driving through, cycles lanes and people would learn the difference.

Besides, in countries that are better at these things, a small barrier or curb is put in to separate the two. In those places, I suspect that people actually put themselves in the mindset of the cyclist and say, would I feel comfortable cycling there giving such and such a setup for a cycle lane. Whereas in Ireland, any oul thing on a path or road, marked or not marked, ticks the box. All very fine, but it it's just a token attempt, nothing changes. We should look to places like London, where cycling is now prevalent, normal and widely accepted.

I used to commute in the Old Kilmeaden road for a good while. When they built the road first, the cycle lane that ended with the new section of road literally led into a pit. As in, if you cycled beyond the end of the marked area, and it was dark, which it is on that part of the road in the night, you could have flown off the road into a big hole. Nice. This is the reason I don't like cycling in Waterford. No cop on.

Also, I remember when half the footpath/so-called-cycle lane on the ORR outside TK Maxx was halved overnight to accommodate the entry/exit lane for the centre. Sure the cycle-lane was only for fun anyway, serious people have to drive to TK Maxx. I mentioned this to Mary Roche and she told me it was in the Co. Council area (which presumably meant she wasn't interested in talking to them). So Waterford Co. Co. in Dungarvan are on charge of most of the cycle lane on the ORR...

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

Speed limits are in the same category, but those get enforced don't they? All it would take would be a couple of penalty points, etc. for cars parked, or driving through, cycles lanes and people would learn the difference.

Besides, in countries that are better at these things, a small barrier or curb is put in to separate the two. In those places, I suspect that people actually put themselves in the mindset of the cyclist and say, would I feel comfortable cycling there giving such and such a setup for a cycle lane. Whereas in Ireland, any oul thing on a path or road, marked or not marked, ticks the box. All very fine, but it it's just a token attempt, nothing changes. We should look to places like London, where cycling is now prevalent, normal and widely accepted.

I used to commute in the Old Kilmeaden road for a good while. When they built the road first, the cycle lane that ended with the new section of road literally led into a pit. As in, if you cycled beyond the end of the marked area, and it was dark, which it is on that part of the road in the night, you could have flown off the road into a big hole. Nice. This is the reason I don't like cycling in Waterford. No cop on.

Also, I remember when half the footpath/so-called-cycle lane on the ORR outside TK Maxx was halved overnight to accommodate the entry/exit lane for the centre. Sure the cycle-lane was only for fun anyway, serious people have to drive to TK Maxx. I mentioned this to Mary Roche and she told me it was in the Co. Council area (which presumably meant she wasn't interested in talking to them). So Waterford Co. Co. in Dungarvan are on charge of most of the cycle lane on the ORR...

I fully support the little kerb thing. I suppose it would be cheap too

merlante

tonc76 wrote: »

IE and BE have no money to expand either service and will have no money for the foreseeable future. Both have been running at a loss for years at this stage.

Any fool can make a loss on a potentially profitable service. Can we really and honestly say that there is no real world business case for IE and BE or is it more to do with the way they're running it?

Why is it that we are so quick to say that such and such a service or improvement is not viable and so slow to point out that IE and BE are in all likelihood grossly inefficient. There's no incentive there for them to report a profit because then the government will give them less cash.

A public service should be run like a public service rather than turning a department into a sham business.

tonc76 wrote: »

On road cycletracks are far more dangerous for the cyclist than off road. Segregated cycletracks/footpaths (white marking) only work if both cyclists and pedestrians know how to use them. Shared cycletracks/footpaths however are a disaster as no one knows who has "right of way".

Are they really far more dangerous? I wonder. More serious accidents on the road but a lot more minor accidents on the footpath I'd say. Or else a lot of slowing down for pedestrians, which is unacceptable and will drive 99% of cyclists out onto the road. For example, I never cycles on the ORR "cycle lane". Commuters want to get places. Footpaths are joggers and dog walkers who are going nowhere.

tonc76

merlante wrote: »

But sure the spaces removed can appear elsewhere. The council/Waterford Crystal/the government are building a large extension to the car park off Lombard st. as part of the new Waterford Crystal showroom/factory. These spaces with increase revenue. Having car parking on Mall has had its day, imho. Looks bad and it's not even easy or desirable to park there. The Mall should be the 'showey' st. of Waterford.

The car parking on the Mall is always full and generating revenue as a result. WCC are not going to give up that revenue even if there is a new expanded car park around the corner. The point I made about no start or end to a cycletrack along the Quays or Parnell Street remains. To bring it one step further there is no space available at all to construct a cycletrack along Manor Street thereby making the whole cycletrack through town impossible. On top of that a cycletrack has to be bidirectional in order for it to be of any use.