Is Big Representation Big Government

Nuravictus

I've always wondered if Big Representation is Big Government. Big Government to me is something that costs so much money that it is oppressive to the economy.

One State in America has always interested me and that State is New Hampshire. New Hampshire works basically like below...

The legislature is called the General Court. It consists of the House of Representatives and the Senate. There are 400 representatives, making it one of the largest elected bodies in the English-speaking world,[29] and 24 senators. Most are effectively volunteers, nearly half of which are retirees.

Could we have a system like this in Ireland and could it work ? Would it make more sense to create four states and have a small Federal Government ?

NOTE: The population of New Hampshire is about 1 and a half million which is basically what we have in all but 1 of the provinces in Ireland.

imported_guy

ireland is like the 1/20th the size of the biggest american state (alaska), why the hell would it need 4 state governments, thats just asking for trouble, government should always be limited to what the constitution allows for.

Nuravictus

imported_guy wrote: »

ireland is like the 1/20th the size of the biggest american state (alaska), why the hell would it need 4 state governments, thats just asking for trouble, government should always be limited to what the constitution allows for.

Im talking about New Hampshire not Alaska

Eliot Rosewater

imported_guy wrote: »

ireland is like the 1/20th the size of the biggest american state (alaska), why the hell would it need 4 state governments, thats just asking for trouble, government should always be limited to what the constitution allows for.

The Swiss Confederation is nearly half the size of Ireland yet it has 26 states, or cantons, in a federal system. It does have nearly double the population though.

I'd be in favor of a federal system for Ireland. I wouldn't go for the provinces just because they're convenient, you'd want to break it up into comparable chunks. I would propose devolving drastic powers to the individual states, including tax powers and social welfare provision.

Iwasfrozen

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'd be in favor of a federal system for Ireland. I wouldn't go for the provinces just because they're convenient, you'd want to break it up into comparable chunks. I would propose devolving drastic powers to the individual states, including tax powers and social welfare provision.

Nobody said anything about convenience, it's traditional. If the country is to be divided it should be divided by the provences.

One of my many pet hates was the way the "All Ireland Talent Show" dissolved the country into North, South, East, West and Dublin.

Ahhhh, I know it sounds stupid but I couldn't watch the show because of it.

Eliot Rosewater

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If the country is to be divided it should be divided by the provences.

Why? It's clearly impractical that the state of Leinster should have 3 or 4 times the population of the state of Connaught.

Iwasfrozen

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Why? It's clearly impractical that the state of Leinster should have 3 or 4 times the population of the state of Connaught.

California's population at 36,961,664 is 68 times greater then Wyoming's at a tiny 544,270.

What's your point ?

Eliot Rosewater

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What's your point ?

My point is that the states should be roughly the same population, in the absence of other factors. It is fallacious to compare Ireland to America in this regard as the federal system there is cultural and intrinsic. In Ireland a federal system would not be introduced for reasons other than practicality and philosophical advantage.

What is your justification for states based on the provinces? What difference will a Wexford person get from being governed by a 2 million large Leinster state concentrated in Dublin as opposed to the Irish state as it is now?

Why, out of curiosity, do you think we should have federalism?

Iwasfrozen

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

My point is that the states should be roughly the same population, in the absence of other factors. It is fallacious to compare Ireland to America in this regard as the federal system there is cultural and intrinsic. In Ireland a federal system would not be introduced for reasons other than practicality and philosophical advantage.

This is incorrect, if anything the idea of dividing Ireland up by Counties and Provinces. Is more ingrained into the national psyche culture then in the U.S.

Don't forget Ireland has been divided that way while Indians ruled the American continent.

Eliot Rosewater wrote:

What is your justification for states based on the provinces?

Tradition.

Eliot Rosewater wrote:

What difference will a Wexford person get from being governed by a 2 million large Leinster state concentrated in Dublin as opposed to the Irish state as it is now?

I don't know.

Eliot Rosewater wrote:

Why, out of curiosity, do you think we should have federalism?

Again, I don't know. This isn't my thread or my idea. Ask the OP.

The only reason I entered the discussion was to give my two cents on how it should be divided if it where to be federalised.

MysNthR0p3

The reason there is such a formalised system in the US is because each of the 50 states were once sovereign "nation states", each petitioning to be part of the Republic. Also as state incorporation occurred from 18th-20th Centuries (Hawaii becoming a state in 1959) prior to "modern" telecommunications (i.e. fibre optic, internet, etc.), it made sense to keep any governing bodies the State came with and federalise them into State governments, allowing them to retain certain powers, while subordinating the remainder (those with a national impact) to the Federal Government. So the US from its founding was an confederation of States.

When Ireland as a Republic was declared in 1916, we were declared a single State. Ergo one State, one State government which is also the 'Federal' government. Our small size means there's no need for smaller subordinated governments, although county councils are something along similar lines with much less power.

Actually with modern communications, the US could easily abandon its Federal system and operate a purely national government, however every Republican would then attack Washington DC because they're all rabid nut jobs there.

Hazlittle

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

The Swiss Confederation is nearly half the size of Ireland yet it has 26 states, or cantons, in a federal system. It does have nearly double the population though.

I'd be in favor of a federal system for Ireland. I wouldn't go for the provinces just because they're convenient, you'd want to break it up into comparable chunks. I would propose devolving drastic powers to the individual states, including tax powers and social welfare provision.

Swiss is a good model. Defense and main legal system in the top gov, public services and taxes in the cantons, and weeny little stuff for the local community.

Ireland should be broken up into 122 mini states based on the council wards.

Exile 1798

What practical benefits would a federal division of Ireland bring? The only somewhat convincing one I've ever heard suggested was that in a Province based Federal, United Ireland a 9 County Ulster would mean Unionists made almost 50% of the population in their own locally governed province.

But even that's more to do with symbolism and baseless Unionist concerns then real benefits.

We are a very small country and a very small population. I don't think America is at all a valid comparison. And in any case I wouldn't say their system is so fantastic. State's rights have often meant a State's right to racially and sexually discriminate amongst it's citizens. Also let's not forget the fact that in many American States the legal drinking age is 21 - a shocking infringement on human rights!

Hazlittle

Exile 1798 wrote: »

What practical benefits would a federal division of Ireland bring? The only somewhat convincing one I've ever heard suggested was that in a Province based Federal, United Ireland a 9 County Ulster would mean Unionists made almost 50% of the population in their own locally governed province.

But even that's more to do with symbolism and baseless Unionist concerns then real benefits.

We are a very small country and a very small population. I don't think America is at all a valid comparison. And in any case I wouldn't say their system is so fantastic. State's rights have often meant a State's right to racially and sexually discriminate amongst it's citizens. Also let's not forget the fact that in many American States the legal drinking age is 21 - a shocking infringement on human rights!

Depends on what function you want your government to have. I need any state subsidies or welfare so I'm content with getting rid of them. A central government to run the criminal courts. Local(122 of them) to run the civil courts and environmental law.

If you dont do any harm to anyone then there shouldnt be a reason to interact with the government.