"Petty gossip" will not intimidate Catholic Church

Dionysus

And so it goes on.

Today, Easter Sunday 2010, yet another "leading" church figure, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, came out to tell the world that the "petty gossip" of the child abuse scandals across the world will not intimidate the Catholic Church.

Christ almighty, is there any hope for the Catholic Church when every day we have one arrogant git after another treating us all like infidels, circling the wagons and assuring the poor schmucks who blindly follow the utterances of Catholic Church "leaders" that the rest of the population of the world is just trying to attack the Church of Christ? Nothing, nothing it appears, to do with attacking the evil which that Church has covered up year after year and decade after decade. The Catholic Church leadership is, apparently like the Jews in WWII, the "victim".

Aside from Diarmuid Martin, an increasingly lonely, isolated and pitiable figure, I see no hope whatsoever for any redemption of the Catholic Church. There is not even a willingness to repent. After years of telling us what to do the hypocrisy of their current position is too much, and repeatedly so. Where is their courage: we were wrong; we are deeply ashamed; here is every abuse case we've covered up; we are motivated to create a new, healthier, more open and more honest church out of this shame?

Instead, all these "leaders" are doing is going into siege mentality mode and being as bigoted, intransigent, dishonest and unchristian as they could possibly be.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0404/breaking1.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0404/abuse.html

minidazzler

Some of them are living in the clouds, not realising that their fall from grace has already happened.

They are like Wild e Coyote, he will have to see he has already ran off the cliff before he actually falls.

corkcomp

Is anyone else sick of hearing about all the scandal within the church? Fair enough, some of the crimes committed were horrendous and people have a right to know, but people need to realise that some things never change (i.e. level of arrogance and lack of repentance from SOME quarters), on the other hand it is not fair to tar everybody within the institution with the same brush.

so the simple answer people is to vote with your feet .. if you dont attend mass then chances are you will have little other contact with the church.

df1985

i believe in god or should i say i hope to feck theres something after this life, but my support for the catholic church has gone completely out the window after all this. ill pray at home thanks, and not give ye feckers money just to practice my faith.

PeterIanStaker

Some of them? I would argue that the RCC hierarchy, from Ratz down, are in an advanced state of denial, if not delusion.

Unfortuately they have their apologists in the laity and even more unfortunately, people are still going to mass.
The organisation is not capable of any kind of change because of its greed and hubris.

conno3001

What can we expect from the same people that were in charge of making sure an atrocity like this didn't happen in this first place.

Dionysus

corkcomp wrote: »

Is anyone else sick of hearing about all the scandal within the church? Fair enough, some of the crimes committed were horrendous and people have a right to know, but people need to realise that some things never change (i.e. level of arrogance and lack of repentance from SOME quarters), on the other hand it is not fair to tar everybody within the institution with the same brush.

so the simple answer people is to vote with your feet .. if you dont attend mass then chances are you will have little other contact with the church.

We are not talking about the level of arrogance from merely "some" quarters. We are talking about it at the very top of the Church. Specifically, for instance, instructions to all Irish bishops from the Vatican to report all allegations of child abuse to the Vatican and wait for its instructions before informing the civil authorities in Ireland.

Today, there is no defensible reason for every single diocese in Ireland not having a Murphy-style investigation as suggested by Diarmuid Martin. Yet, the leadership of the Catholic Church refuses to accede to this basic and very justified request. Why?

corkcomp

Dionysus wrote: »

We are not talking about the level of arrogance from merely "some" quarters. We are talking about it at the very top of the Church. Specifically, for instance, instructions to all Irish bishops from the Vatican to report all allegations of child abuse to the Vatican and wait for its instructions before informing the civil authorities in Ireland.

Today, there is no defensible reason for every single diocese in Ireland not having a Murphy-style investigation as suggested by Diarmuid Martin. Yet, the leadership of the Catholic Church refuses to accede to this basic and very justified request. Why?

my comments remain the same, if you dont like it, dont buy into it .. like another poster mentioned, IF you want to pray you can do it at home. I dont understand why people dont just walk away if it bothers you, because hoping things will change is akin to banging your head on a brick wall.

My name is URL

I imagine he's talking about how the entire church (both priests and followers) are being targeted over what happened, regardless of whether they were involved or not.

If that's the case then he has a point. People go on as if anyone that admits to being a catholic is somehow involved in abusing children, which is stupid. Imo

I'm not religious in any way, but I also don't religiously attack anyone who is

PeterIanStaker

Dionysus wrote: »

We are not talking about the level of arrogance from merely "some" quarters. We are talking about it at the very top of the Church. Specifically, for instance, instructions to all Irish bishops from the Vatican to report all allegations of child abuse to the Vatican and wait for its instructions before informing the civil authorities in Ireland.

Today, there is no defensible reason for every single diocese in Ireland not having a Murphy-style investigation as suggested by Diarmuid Martin. Yet, the leadership of the Catholic Church refuses to accede to this basic and very justified request. Why?

Because of the organisations' total arrogance and superiority complex, as well as its unwillingness to give up the power and money it has accumulated. And they have a nice make - believe thing called Canon Law where they make up the rules as they go along.

Min

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Some of them? I would argue that the RCC hierarchy, from Ratz down, are in an advanced state of denial, if not delusion.

Unfortuately they have their apologists in the laity and even more unfortunately, people are still going to mass.
The organisation is not capable of any kind of change because of its greed and hubris.

Nothing wrong with people going to mass, the people that go have more of a say in the future of the church than someone outside complaining about it.

Hagar

In a generation the Catholic Church in Ireland will be a distant memory. There are no vocations, we have black priests from foreign missionaries on the altars in Ireland. The young don't believe and the older people are losing faith. If Jesus didn't weep before, he will now.

Dionysus

df1985 wrote: »

i believe in god or should i say i hope to feck theres something after this life, but my support for the catholic church has gone completely out the window after all this. ill pray at home thanks, and not give ye feckers money just to practice my faith.

I'm sort of like that myself. I haven't been to mass in about five or six years for no other reason than I find it utterly boring and devoid of spirituality (the occasional sermon excepted). On the other hand, I see the value of having some spiritual tradition and religious presence in my local community. When it comes to funerals, for example, the Church is a great facilitator. So while I'm incensed at the ongoing child abuse cover-ups I wouldn't be in the vanguard of anti-religion atheist types who merely want to replace one belief system with their own belief system. Agnosticism sounds much more intelligent to my mind.

pikachucheeks

Does it count as gossip if it's true?

You can't expect people not to talk about such scandals. Something that newsworthy is going to be talked about, no matter how much you try and prevent it from happening.

PeterIanStaker

Min wrote: »

Nothing wrong with people going to mass, the people that go have more of a say in the future of the church than someone outside complaining about it.

And how do mass goers have a say in the future of the church?

I'm fairly sure they go to mass to get told what to do, dictated to by fear and guilt.

Every person in the door only props up the decadent RCC as if it were on life support.

Fear Uladh

http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=152901023

Packed house for easter mass, seems people are just as happy to go to mass as they ever were and want to forget about what happened. If this isn't rock solid evidence of the warped mindset of some people I don't know what is.

Dionysus

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Does it count as gossip if it's true?

Good point. This dictionary defines it as '1. idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others'.

Unless this cardinal has really lost the plot and is saying the child abuse scandals are the "personal or private affairs" of the Catholic Church?

michael999999

how could any sane minded person go to mass and listen to sons of the devil preaching to us?

pikachucheeks

69 wrote: »

The young don't believe and the older people are losing faith. If Jesus didn't weep before, he will now.

Ah, he has other religions to mind, he might not be too gutted :pac:

Personally, I think that all this turning away from the Catholic church is for the good. Maybe they'll realise it's time for a change and reform the church. They can't ignore the voices of thousands of angry people! And if they chose to, it's at their own detriment.

My name is URL

michael999999 wrote: »

how could any sane minded person go to mass and listen to sons of the devil preaching to us?

How could any sane person make a comment about the sanity of others while suggesting that the devil fathered a load of priests?

InkSlinger67

michael999999 wrote: »

how could any sane minded person go to mass and listen to sons of the devil preaching to us?

This looks like an undercover priest trying to infiltrate the masses via their popular media and bring down the resistance from the inside

Don't look directly into his eyes!!!!

PeterIanStaker

Dionysus wrote: »

Good point. This dictionary defines it as '1. idle talk or rumor, esp. about the personal or private affairs of others'.

Unless this cardinal has really lost the plot and is saying the child abuse scandals are the "personal or private affairs" of the Catholic Church?

Again the make believe Canon Law.

bnt

In all these statements from the Church, there's a common theme: it's all about the Church and its image. They have nothing at all to say about the people who have been affected by their actions. The closest they get is talking about "sin" - and all they need to do about that is go to "confession", say a few Hail Marys, and all is forgiven.

I know there are hard-working clergy in various parts of the world who care about people and do the right things. I'm not talking about them. When you live in cloud-cuckoo land (a.k.a. The Vatican), these things do not happen to real people; they are abstract "sins" that are to be forgiven, not crimes that are to be punished, and therefore there will be no repercussions for them in this world.

PeterIanStaker

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Ah, he has other religions to mind, he might not be too gutted :pac:

Personally, I think that all this turning away from the Catholic church is for the good. Maybe they'll realise it's time for a change and reform the church. They can't ignore the voices of thousands of angry people! And if they chose to, it's at their own detriment.

They'll ignore it like they ignore their abuse victims. And they'll never change one iota, I can sadly guarantee you that. Also they are indeed deaf to the voices of angry people, or more likely as I said in a "Downfall" like state of delusion.

Dionysus

pikachucheeks wrote: »

Personally, I think that all this turning away from the Catholic church is for the good. Maybe they'll realise it's time for a change and reform the church. They can't ignore the voices of thousands of angry people! And if they chose to, it's at their own detriment.

That's what I was hoping when this all started. It seems that I was naïve and that instead of ordering a full investigation they are circling the wagons to defend the indefensible and intimating to their blind followers that attacks on the Catholic Church's actions regarding child abuse are attacks on Christianity. Breathtaking.

bronte

Ego is one of that Church's biggest downfalls.

Agent J

Im not Christian but i really hope that Jesus hurries the hell up and comes back to sort out this lot.

PeterIanStaker

And sadly the sheeple will close ranks or so the RCC hopes.

anotherlostie

It would have been bad enough for some rogue bishop to make this statement from his pulpit. But it came at the easter mass at the Vatican in front of the pope. I should be shocked, but like with the banks, I'm past that point now.

pikachucheeks

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

They'll ignore it like they ignore their abuse victims. And they'll never change one iota, I can sadly guarantee you that. Also they are indeed deaf to the voices of angry people, or more likely as I said in a "Downfall" like state of delusion.

It's a shame, because one major result of their actions has been that many people have left the church, with no hope of returning.

I'd be interested to see the decrease in people calling themselves "catholic" in the next census. I reckon it'll be quite substantial, as a direct result of all the abuse scandals.

Dionysus wrote: »

It seems that I was naïve and that instead of ordering a full investigation they are circling the wagons to defend the indefensible and intimating to their blind followers that attacks on the Catholic Church's actions regarding child abuse are attacks on Christianity...

I think a lot of that comes down to the hierarchy in the church itself. The priests are often thought of as being 'special' in comparison to the regular people that attend Mass. 'Special' in the sense that they are preaching God's word to the people, they are 'closer' to God and are called upon to do his work.
So, when the scandals came out, the result was that these priests on pedestals were believed over the normal, every-day people accusing them.

NTMK

honestly is the vatican trying to bring down the RCC cause they're doin a great job

oneintotwo

I don't mind, they're the masterminds of their own downfall, saves me a lot of work.

thebman

corkcomp wrote: »

my comments remain the same, if you dont like it, dont buy into it .. like another poster mentioned, IF you want to pray you can do it at home. I dont understand why people dont just walk away if it bothers you, because hoping things will change is akin to banging your head on a brick wall.

Well there is the small manner of all those laws they broke by refusing to report sex offenders to the authorities and the problem of the actually abusers not being in prison.

Sure it won't happen is all anybody will say as the abused have to live with the horrors for their whole life's, the abusers and the people that cover it up get off free.

Rotten to its core the church is and the state that refuses to take action against them for fear of losing votes :rolleyes:

bleg

Don't really expect much more from the most disgusting organisation ever known to man.

Min

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

And how do mass goers have a say in the future of the church?

I'm fairly sure they go to mass to get told what to do, dictated to by fear and guilt.

Every person in the door only props up the decadent RCC as if it were on life support.

What fear and guilt?

One can talk to the priest, one can meet the bishop. I have more say than someone like you who is probably not Catholic.

I like going to mass, I'm not going to have you or anyone else decide what one should do.

Why should anyone listen to you? Church attendance isn't down from what I see. People have known about the sex abuse for a long time now, people who are only getting upset by it now as in they are going to leave, where have they been for the past number of years? I'm not going to allow the sins of humans to dictate how I treat my faith.

The petty gossip in this thread is the language used towards Catholics, gossiping they are sheeple, the same people thanking eachother, where ahave you people been?
Is it only the past year with the reports that you now know about the abuse, were you not around in 1994 when Brendan Smyth brought down a government?
Do you judge everyone by the worse, as far as I am concerned the grave evil committed within the church does not negate the great good committed within the church and the great good done within the church does not negate the grave evil.
It says a lot about some who can only judge something by the worst, do any of us want to be judged by our worst aspects?
This is just another bash Catholics topic with the same people thanking eachother like.......sheeple, closing ranks with one another one might say

bronte

Min wrote: »

Is it only the past year with the reports that you now know about the abuse, were you not around in 1994 when Brendan Smyth brought down a government?
Do you judge everyone by the worse, as far as I am concerned the grave evil committed within the church does not negate the great good committed within the church and the great good done within the church does not negate the grave evil.
It says a lot about some who can only judge something by the worst, do any of us want to be judged by our worst aspects?
This is just another bash Catholics topic with the same people thanking eachother like.......sheeple, closing ranks with one another one might say

In 1994 I was 10 , Min.
You grow up and you realise that what you've been told over the years may not actually be true.
If I had my way, I'd never have been raised Catholic.

NTMK

Min wrote: »

as far as I am concerned the grave evil committed within the church does not negate the great good committed within the church and the great good done within the church does not negate the grave evil.

What good?

Min

bronte wrote: »

In 1994 I was 10 , Min.
You grow up and you realise that what you've been told over the years may not actually be true.
If I had my way, I'd never have been raised Catholic.

I remember when I was a child Gemma Hussey was the minister for education and looking it up that was when I around 6 years old, ok some were maybe not exposed to politics and TV coverage of current affairs as a child, I remember the abortion referendum in 1983, when I was 7, remember when the Pope was shot when I was 5.

The problem with the abuse involves people, it doesn't involve my faith. The problem is some do not make a distinction between the faults (and in the case of the abuse - crimes and sins) of humans.
I am happy with my Catholic faith, that does not mean I am happy with how the abuse was handled. The following is a general post......
I am sick of some who just post negative stuff about the church as if we are all suppose to have a negative experience of the church since some claim it is a cesspool of evil and that we have to judge the church on the worst people who served among its ranks.

Min

NTMK wrote: »

What good?

You have some who claim the church target the poor since it is claimed they are easier to convert, then what does the church do, gives them education, provides healthcare and so on.
What is the greatest way of escaping poverty? Education is.....and outside of governments the Catholic church is the single largest provider of education in the world.

If that is not good then people simply do not want to see any good,

NTMK

Min wrote: »

You have some who claim the church target the poor since it is claimed they are easier to convert, then what does the church do, gives them education, provides healthcare and so on.

provided they're catholic

I know for a fact alot of Missionaries use these to bribe people into converting

NTMK

And Just so you know im not attacking the Religion im attacking the people who run it

GLaDOS

Chillaxe wrote: »

http://news.ie.msn.com/article.aspx?cp-documentid=152901023

Packed house for easter mass, seems people are just as happy to go to mass as they ever were and want to forget about what happened. If this isn't rock solid evidence of the warped mindset of some people I don't know what is.

Irish Catholics: barstoolers of the Religious world. Bet two thirds of them won't be back next week.

super_furry

The Pope is either a blind fool, or a very clever man doing everything within his power to destroy the Catholic Church.

Min

NTMK wrote: »

provided they're catholic

I know for a fact alot of Missionaries use these to bribe people into converting

But that isn't true. Were programs like newsnight telling lies when they showed otherwise in Nigeria. providing healthcare and other services to Christians and Muslims who live in slums. i'm on my phone now so sorry for the typos.

Hank_Jones

bronte wrote: »

In 1994 I was 10 , Min.
You grow up and you realise that what you've been told over the years may not actually be true.
If I had my way, I'd never have been raised Catholic.

I'm exactly like this, my brothers are as well for that matter.
Get old enough to realise that you have been fed a line of crap your whole life and then the fact that we live in a country in which main events in people's lives (weddings,funerals) revolve around churches...

I try to not let people's beliefs bother me.
It's probably just due to my dislike for religion as a whole.
And then people of some larger religions to look down on other religions because they seem more outrageous (Christians looking down on Scientology etc).
It's all just a load of crap, people afraid to go against the grain.

Nodin

corkcomp wrote: »

.. if you dont attend mass then chances are you will have little other contact with the church.

Unless you've a child in school....

corkcomp

Nodin wrote: »

Unless you've a child in school....

I remember class mates of mine being allowed to opt out of religion class, if their parents requested and that was over 15 years ago ..

bronte

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'm exactly like this, my brothers are as well for that matter.
Get old enough to realise that you have been fed a line of crap your whole life and then the fact that we live in a country in which main events in people's lives (weddings,funerals) revolve around churches...

Yeah, I know the feeling.
It was written in the stars for me, I reckon.
I was adopted from a Catholic adoption agency and one of the lovely stipulations of that adoption was that I was raised Catholic.
I made the first communion at 7 and confirmation at 12 ...then as I grew up all the things that bothered me about the religion started being impossible to ignore.

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I try to not let people's beliefs bother me.
It's probably just due to my dislike for religion as a whole.
And then people of some larger religions to look down on other religions because they seem more outrageous (Christians looking down on Scientology etc).
It's all just a load of crap, people afraid to go against the grain.

This is a huge issue. A lot of people have their children baptised etc so as not to piss off the grandparents. Sad really.

Mike 1972

Min wrote: »

Nothing wrong with people going to mass, the people that go have more of a say in the future of the church than someone outside complaining about it.

Since when has the RCC become a democracy ?

PeterIanStaker

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Since when has the RCC become a democracy ?

My point exactly. Its a dictatorship more or less.
I don't see how mass goers gain from it.

And I say this as one who was taken to mass against my will, more times than I care to remember; as a child, after being baptised i.e. "cleansed" of my supposed "original sin"

strobe

corkcomp wrote: »

I remember class mates of mine being allowed to opt out of religion class, if their parents requested and that was over 15 years ago ..

Fair enough....But do you think it's fair that parents are forced to choose between having their child exposed to the indoctrination of what many people would describe as a cult and their kid being seperated from their freinds and being made go sit on their own for an hour of the day. Do you think either choice is fair on the child? School's are supposed to exist to educate our children. If you want to instill certain values or belief systems, wether they are Christian, Satanic, or anything else, then surely that is best done at home and we can keep schools as un-exclusive institutions of genuine knowlege.