Ireland's budget deficit: what now?

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

unlike what some members said in this thread
that orange expenditure line will be even higher than 2009 leading to even more borrowing, and more pain down the road
and that's before we count in the recent banking fiasco and the moneys they would need


i recommend this article by ronan > http://www.ronanlyons.com/2010/03/02/budget-2011-and-the-eight-things-on-irelands-fiscal-to-do-list/

particularly the debt re-payment orange line is incredibly scary (once again that article was made before recent banking shenanigans)

MagicSean

The public service have to deliver savings if they want to keep their deal and not get a pay cut in december. There should be a similar reform of social welfare, especially rent allowance and single mothers allowance, and if reform can't produce savings it should be cut. The combined reform of ps and sw should produce savings of a few billion.

Just out of interest. What happens with the toxic debts? If the government foreclose on properties and sell them does this go towards the country income?

OMD

k_mac wrote: »

Just out of interest. What happens with the toxic debts? If the government foreclose on properties and sell them does this go towards the country income?

Eventually. The money goes to NAMA. When NAMA is wound up the money in NAMA goes to government coffers although only for a short time as it will then be used to pay back borrowings for NAMA

Permabear

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MagicSean

donegalfella wrote: »

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Clearly you are not a member of the public service. Anyone who works on the lower levels could give you lots of examples of where money is thrown away due to policy and procedures.

murphaph

When did our dole overtake the UK's? It's ~€73 over the border and if you have assets it's stopped after 6 months until you use up your own money first. It used to be an overly generous system like ours until Thatcher reformed the whole thing. That's where it needs to be heading towards to be quite frank. It might be easier for them as they still have way more social housing stock than us, so paying private landlords (like me) for rented accomodation is probably a much rarer occurance in the UK, they would simply offer a poor family a council house rather than offering to pay their mortgage or pay for private rented accomodation.

Permabear

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MagicSean

donegalfella wrote: »

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Sorry I thought you were referring to savings in the public sector in general, not just wages.

jmayo

One of my bugbears that K_mac mentioned is the rent allowance scheme.
It is a direct transfer of money from the taxpayer to landlords/property investors.

It is keeping an artifical floor on rents in this country and needs to be dropped drastically immediately.

FFS look at all the empty properties out there and then look how landlords are looking at guaranteed rents thanks to us the taxpayers.
And please none of the sh**e about some of it comes back in tax from landlords.

Permabear

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cson

murphaph wrote: »

When did our dole overtake the UK's? It's ~€73 over the border and if you have assets it's stopped after 6 months until you use up your own money first.

I remember looking at this and trying to get the concept around my head that it was over 100% more expensive to live in Dundalk rather than 5 minutes up the road in Newry. And I still can't understand it.

Until the cuts to the welfare benefits it was €202 versus ~£60 up north. An approx difference of almost 200%.

Idbatterim

The biggest overheads for anyone not living at home! i.e alot of us is rent, if rent allowance were drastically cut, the Goverment cut more easily justify cutting welfare! Other than the roof over your head and essential bills, food and drink is all you need to get by. Say for example the government is paying for your rent, you should get by on E100 per week, if the money is only being spent on what its intended! Now I can hear some people say, but I have a mortgage etc and am now unemployed, and for you I am genuinely sorry, but because you have worked and contributed, I think that the Goverment should pay you x amount of your final salary for 6-9 months and then slowly decrease it after that! We need a system where being a sponger / waster is an appalling situation compared to going out and working! Its the complete opposite at the moment! Could someone tell me how Rent Supplement works?

Idbatterim

now that the banks have been bailed out one way or another, what would happen if the state needs a bailout? would the banks still be ok or would this have implications for them? or are they out of the s**t once the goverment has written the cheques regardless of what happens to the economy? Whatver about the rest of them I can actually comprehend the figures involved for AIB and BOI etc but Anglo the figures involved with them are mindboggling / depraved!

ardmacha

(Number of PS employees) x (Wages) = (Total Wage Cost)

How is this equation altered by changing "policy and procedures"?

Firstly overtime is directly reduced. Secondly if people leave/retire and are not replaced then changing "policy and procedures" allows service to continue without them, either by efficiencies or by redirecting people who are not needed elsewhere.

By 2014 10-15% will have left.

Before reducing PS pay it would seem logical to reduce pensions by the same amount as a person earning that pay has been cut.

Ebonhoof

We need to pimp out the Army to some third world dictator. The dictator can pay their wages and a stipend to the government for their use.

Instant reduction to public service paybill and income from abroad.

Ok, seriously I am not advocating this, but similar creative thinking is needed rather than just smashing out the old reliable ideas that wont work.

silverharp

its a really interesting setup. If the playbook from the 1970's/ 80's was dusted off, it would mean raising income tax to the point that someone on an industrial wage would be paying a marginal tax above 60%. However in those days, people were solvent and the gov had the space to be reckless, plus inflation allowed the people to be fooled into thinking that the effect of high taxes could be mitigated
However now the government is being reckless after large numbers of the general population have been too. This time the government will not have the room to raise taxes to 1980's levels or if they do it would mean yet another round of defaults which will kill the private economy.

Its basically going to be a decade or more of austerity, and the main sport will be the various sectional interests trying to pass the cost on to everyone else. At some stage the bond market will lose their appetite to buy our junk debt (the sooner the better) and hopefully younger people will call for a change in how politics is run which appears to be currently funded by generational theft. Remember one of reasons Anglo was bailed out was to support Irish pension fund assets, god forbid that our elders and betters would be allowed to take a hit!

Ebonhoof

I'd prefer some creative thinking to a decade of austerity. Let those bucks earning the big bucks earn it for a change...

Eliot Rosewater

I don't know if I'd put so much faith in the "next generation" (of which I am a part). A lot of young people are happy to sit back wait for the Government to do everything for them, rather than being proactive themselves.

A lot of young people become politically aware when they're in University, where the main political goal is the maintaining of the perceived right to free third level education. The culture of entitlement kicks in from a very early age.

It will be "interesting" to see how the situation develops seeing as the Government can't please everyone, as donegalfella said. Strong liberal reform seems unlikely, especially with a Labour Government on its way by 2012.

So overall I would say the future is extremely bleak and I for one cant see the light at the end of the tunnel. It is with some degree of sadness that I, at only twenty years old, say that.

amen

I'd prefer some creative thinking to a decade of austerity

there are loads of ways to save money:
1: include road tax in the price of petrol and close all road tax offices. Save the wages of the civils servents involved immediately (or redeploy other sections)
2: government should stop accepting credit cards as payment methods for any service (most likely there are paying 2-3% of money recevied to credit card company). This could be big saving for county councils when collecting rates
3: merge the country fire services and remove the 29 fire chiefs, assistant chiefs and have a national fire service etc
4: cap all public salaries (td, civil servants etc) at 4 times the average industrial wage reviewed every 3 years. If the average industrial wage goes up so do public salaries if they go down so does the average industrial wage go down.
5: stop using taxis to transger patient documents between hospital especially between regional hospitals and dublin!!!
loads more;

prehaps a post should be started on ways to save money?

ardmacha

1: include road tax in the price of petrol and close all road tax offices. Save the wages of the civils servents involved immediately (or redeploy other sections)

This would simply transfer a load of revenue to petrol stations in Forkhill.

2: government should stop accepting credit cards as payment methods for any service (most likely there are paying 2-3% of money recevied to credit card company). This could be big saving for county councils when collecting rates

Better to strike a harder deal with the CC people.

3: merge the country fire services and remove the 29 fire chiefs, assistant chiefs and have a national fire service etc

The Fireman Union said this. Perfect sense.

4: cap all public salaries (td, civil servants etc) at 4 times the average industrial wage reviewed every 3 years. If the average industrial wage goes up so do public salaries if they go down so does the average industrial wage go down.

A bit simplistic.

5: stop using taxis to transger patient documents between hospital especially between regional hospitals and dublin!!!

This type of thing is the way forward.

Ebonhoof

amen wrote: »

there are loads of ways to save money:
1: include road tax in the price of petrol and close all road tax offices. Save the wages of the civils servents involved immediately (or redeploy other sections)
2: government should stop accepting credit cards as payment methods for any service (most likely there are paying 2-3% of money recevied to credit card company). This could be big saving for county councils when collecting rates
3: merge the country fire services and remove the 29 fire chiefs, assistant chiefs and have a national fire service etc
4: cap all public salaries (td, civil servants etc) at 4 times the average industrial wage reviewed every 3 years. If the average industrial wage goes up so do public salaries if they go down so does the average industrial wage go down.
5: stop using taxis to transger patient documents between hospital especially between regional hospitals and dublin!!!
loads more;

prehaps a post should be started on ways to save money?

This is more like it to be honest.

Add in only giving taxi's to PS staff once public transport stops not at 10pm.

On said patient documents, scan them and email. Instant and cheaper.

Stop giving TD's countless prepaid envelopes.

Remove free parking for ex TD's/Senators.

Sell the government jet, lets be honest the rest of the world knows we cant afford it at this stage.

Let the state cars be random make of cheap saloon cars not Mercs. (maybe a merc for the president/taoiseach but not for ministers)

Remove tax relief on union subs.

The list goes on and on, surely the supposedly brightest in the country can come up with better ideas than "working harder for less", not that this isnt needed too but I dont accept that we all have to live in poverty for the next ten years...

Permabear

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ardmacha

So overall I would say the future is extremely bleak and I for one cant see the light at the end of the tunnel. It is with some degree of sadness that I, at only twenty years old, say that.

This is going to the opposite extreme. No reason why Ireland should not become genuinely successful with a decade of actual work.

It dismays me greatly to think that my daughter could become a victim of Ireland's insatiable appetite for big government.

The present economic mess is the result of greedy business, not big government. The governments role was to stand idly by while the private sector speculators wrecked the country.

But teaching children to take responsibilty is very right.

ascanbe

I'd actually like to see you outline your vision of an ideal, libertarian society; i use 'society', though ,i imagine, you probably consider it a dirty word.
Are you a true libertarian or do you just like the sound of the word; and, by my understanding, true libertarianism brooks no compromise.

Addressing this to donegalfella.

Permabear

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doc_17

donegalfella wrote: »

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So how come you are in favour of Margaret Thatcher then?

Because we all know that she was behind the idea of "citizens' fundamental rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness". As a fellow donegal man I'm not sure what parts of our county you could express these views?

ardmacha

If the government had "stood idly by" over the past 13 years, I'd have been happy. But the government did much more than stand idly by. They incentivized the boom at every turn. They used the proceeds to bloat the public sector and welfare spending—and now they are rackrenting the taxpayer to pay debts incurred private banks.

Spot on. Someone should set up a sticky for this forum and put this in.

Permabear

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dan_d

Well said donegal fella.
I've thought about this a lot this week. The most enraging thing from all of this is that we had it all...and we threw it away. In the 80's we had nothing. I suppose you could argue that made us want success more. For the last 10 years, we've had everything and more. (I've been preaching about this all along too, people are sick of listening to me!). And we f&*ked it up completely, while sneering at those who tried to tell us to be more careful along the way.
So what next? Personally, I'm 27yrs old. I've been told going to the UK indefinitely is my option for work in the next few months. I've a house and boyfriend here. I would have to pay to live there, to continue paying my mortgage here. I'd have to fund my own flights home when I get a chance.
Right now (and although it seriously goes against the grain), I'm taking a redundancy in about a month. And I'll somehow get through the summer. My OH is employed til Oct at least, and we'll look at it then. But as with you Donegalfella, we're looking at everywhere else. Everywhere. Anywhere has to be better than this, to offer us more opportunities than this. We've got good qualifications, we're willing to work hard. Things that are no longer appreciated by the people who run this country.
I don't know where all this is going, but I'm pretty sure it's going to go there without me or much of my generation and those after me.

silverharp

I still think there might be hope for the younger or up and coming generation. Even in the last 20 or 30 years younger people have dumped the religion and nationalism of the parents generation. Now we have a situation where a sizable number of 30 somethings will not vote for higher taxes as it will personally ruin them. For the people coming behind them they "should" have no interest in bailing out others and like the US generation that lived through the US depression in the 30's I would expect them to be more fiscally conservative and will have to live with the assumption that the welfare state will not be there for them. Its still early days imo , we are strill in the the "phoney war" stage. We will have to see what transpires over the next 5 years when the worst stages of the financial unravelling will occur.

Of tangental relevance to the thread, some of ye might find the article below of interest, its an interview with the author of a book called the Forth Turning. I havnt read it in a while but makes the case for how generational attitudes shift. How much weight to put in it, no idea but interesting none the less

http://www.commoditynewscenter.com/articles/Insight/Historical_Generation_Rifts_In_American_Politics

murphaph

Those who state we are in for a decade of austerity are absolutley correct. This is perfectly logical...we have just finished with a decade of spending other people's borrowed money on sh!tty houses (but with lovely solid wood floors!), flash cars and plasma TVs.

There's no such thing as a free lunch and Ireland thought it was something special (English speaking, Eurozone blah blah blah) when it actually wasn't. All wages need to fall into line with the Eurozone average and the United Kingdom...quite why we ever believed we were entitled to a far higher standard of living than our UK neighbours is puzzling. If wages don't fall into line we will continue to lose jobs as we have not got a "knowledge economy". We would like to have one, with everyone working in well paid R&D jobs and letting the plebs in Poland do all the grunt work...but we are the plebs. We must continue to do the grunt work as we failed to elect a government that would push high value R&D jobs.

Eliot Rosewater

donegalfella wrote: »

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I think its very admirable that you would go so such lengths to ensure your daughter has a good upbringing. Its funny then when you consider that many people on the Left would hold such action to be irresponsible, because in moving abroad you will no longer be paying tax and you'll be avoiding the perceived "societal responsibility".

donegalfella wrote: »

Of course, we might just stay here and launch the Irish Libertarian Party—or, my preference, the Second Republic Project.

The latter, while preferred (of course :pac:), probably wouldn't suit the Irish Governmental system very well. In the extremely unlikely event a county did secede I would imagine the remaining 25 counties would spare no time in imposing trade barriers, etc.

As regards the Irish Libertarian Party, I notice that the domain www.libertarians.ie was registered recently. Whois.

RichardAnd

murphaph wrote: »

If wages don't fall into line we will continue to lose jobs as we have not got a "knowledge economy". We would like to have one, with everyone working in well paid R&D jobs and letting the plebs in Poland do all the grunt work...but we are the plebs. We must continue to do the grunt work as we failed to elect a government that would push high value R&D jobs.

Ahh yes, the so called "smart economy". Interestingly, that idea seems to have fallen silent. It will never happen, this is a country where children spend hours a day learning a language 90% of them will never know more than a cupla focal of whilst minimal attention is given to maths and science (even English in some schools).

And people shouldn't for a moment think that people out of college are any better. The sad fact is that only a fraction of people have the state of mind needed to be engineers and scientists. I'm not saying people are stupid but it takes alot more than 4 yeats in DIT for the title of "engineer" to mean more than some polish for a graduate's ego.

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

donegalfella wrote: »

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domain squatters it seems

http://webworld.ie/ ) on second post (then thread topic) and compare to whois > http://forums.webworld.ie/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=157

Eliot Rosewater

donegalfella wrote: »

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Thats in interesting idea. :pac: Such an island could easily specialize in Internet based services, although transferring money from the island to the mainland for payments would probably be subject to the tariffs.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

domain squatters it seems

Thats a shame. If you did want the domain though you could try and raise hell with the IEDR (may as well use the regulation while we can ). Registering a .ie is a pretty strict process; usually one has to conjure up an "Unincorporated Association" and create a letter head for it to support your application. Perhaps if you could demonstrate they were squatters it would invalidate their position as an association and thus their domain.

Thats if you have some sort of Libertarian organization to claim it, of course

donegalfella

donegalfella wrote: »

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So the government should ensure all citizens should be able to afford, or be given somewhere to live, as well as access to healthcare, and enough economic means to feed themselves, all while being happy?..social housing, universal healthcare and kinder eggs for everyone..

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

So the government should ensure all citizens should be able to afford, or be given somewhere to live, as well as access to healthcare, and enough economic means to feed themselves, all while being happy?..social housing, universal healthcare and kinder eggs for everyone..

No, I'm not a libertarian but I believe Donegalfella simply means that government should ensure it is possible to buy a house etc. by ensuring a free market that allows entrepreneurialism etc. and not have it taken off you by somebody else down the road, not that they would give you a house or give you money to buy one! I stand open to correction fro DF if I'm wrong.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

No, I'm not a libertarian but I believe Donegalfella simply means that government should ensure it is possible to buy a house etc. by ensuring a free market that allows entrepreneurialism etc. and not have it taken off you by somebody else down the road, not that they would give you a house or give you money to buy one! I stand open to correction fro DF if I'm wrong.

Yeah, i realise that..i reckon its a flawed ideology though...is not a right to shelter pretty much a human right?..and if the government should protect the citizens right to life, that means their right to shelter?, or life in the gutter if for whatever reason they cant afford a roof...He surely also believes in privatisation of everything, including water, which is pretty much essential for life..While libertarianism per se isn't really something im against, but it would also require a major re-think of corporate law, and the corporations place in society..

ei.sdraob

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, i realise that..i reckon its a flawed ideology though...is not a right to shelter pretty much a human right?..and if the government should protect the citizens right to life, that means their right to shelter?, or life in the gutter if for whatever reason they cant afford a roof...He surely also believes in privatisation of everything, including water, which is pretty much essential for life..While libertarianism per se isn't really something im against, but it would also require a major re-think of corporate law, and the corporations place in society..

jesus way to jump to a absurd conclusion there

by your line of thinking because family is central to the constitution then that means the state should come along and quite literrary wipe each familys arses

see what i did there?

theres nothing preventing people coming together under a libertarian structure and all agreeing to provide themselves shelter or wipe each others behinds for that matter it would also mean some people can stay out of this and not vandalise this groups homes or not wipe their rears and vice versa

comprende ?

here this might make it clear

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXBNONftdXI

ei.sdraob

ei.sdraob wrote: »

jesus way to jump to a absurd conclusion there

by your line of thinking because family is central to the constitution then that means the state should come along and quite literrary wipe each familys arses

theres nothing preventing people coming together under a libertarian structure and all agreeing to provide themselves shelter or wipe each others behinds for that matter it would also mean some people can stay out of this and not vandalise this groups homes or not wipe their rears and vice versa

Well, he did say he thinks they should privatise everything..I would assume he would agree with privatising water distribution..

And people coming together to provide each other with services..sounds like local government to me..

murphaph

Deleted User wrote: »

Well, he did say he thinks they should privatise everything..I would assume he would agree with privatising water distribution..

And people coming together to provide each other with services..sounds like local government to me..

Water distribution IS privatised here in Berlin and across Germany. It's privatised in lots of countries actually.

murphaph

murphaph wrote: »

Water distribution IS privatised here in Berlin and across Germany. It's privatised in lots of countries actually.

Yes, i know...and while its all well and good when people can afford it..at times they cant..

Permabear

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_Kaiser_

With all due respect to some of the keyboard economists here, I just have to step in if I may...

While I have made my feelings on the current situation very clear over here, I can only assume that the people who are calling for drastic welfare and benefits cuts have never tried to survive on them.

I was made redundant (from a public sector body I might add) through no fault of my own just before Christmas. I worked there for just over 4 years and got a wage that is approximately 5-10k LESS than the equivalent private sector position - I guess I was out the day they were handing out the "jobs for life", "gold-plated pensions" and "dramatically inflated salaries". :rolleyes:

[Side Note: The one thing FF have managed to do through this is to constantly shift the attention and blame away from those who are truely responsible for this current mess - this month it's the evil bankers, last month it was the public sector v private sector - and the Irish with goldfish-like attention spans just go along with whatever the 6.1 news (state-funded broadcaster and all!) tells them]

I've gone from a salary of roughly €2700 net per month to just under €970.
From that I've to pay my rent (€685), Gas (€300/€150pm on the last one due to the cold snap), ESB (€150/€75pm), fuel costs, car tax/insurance, car loan - and before it's claimed that a car is a non-essential, firstly I needed it for work, and secondly - have you tried using public transport outside of the capital? (if it exists at all!)- oh and I have to eat of course!

Then I'm treated like a child or an ex-con for daring to claim entitlements I've paid towards for years, not to mention the amount of redundant/duplicated paperwork that's required because we Irish don't do "joined up thinking" between Departments (how much does THAT waste, in both time and monetary terms), and the system is setup in such a way that getting back into work is made as difficult as possible (assuming you can find a job that is - there's plenty of those WPP slave labour schemes alright, but it already costs me enough to survive as it is!)

I don't have a mortgage thank god (unlike most of my countrymen I was immune to the peer/social pressure that said you've somehow failed if you don't own a house in the middle of nowhere with no facilities or infrastructure by the time you're 30 :rolleyes:), I don't go out much, I haven't been on holiday in about a decade, and I don't drive a 50k 10-D motor!

Surprisingly(!!) I still have problems meeting my bills since I was laid off, and I've spent every DAY since then searching for a new job (but as above many employers are now taking the piss entirely with requirements and conditions, or not hiring at all, the search goes on!), so while I certainly agree that there is room for massive abuse of the welfare system as it is, and this was highlighted on a recent Primetime, to tar everyone who's found themselves needing state support in the current economic climate (after year's of contributing to it) with this same brush is frankly ridiculous and insulting!

To say that people can somehow magically "make do" when those same wise men (and women) think about where they'll feck off to for 2 weeks this summer, is the height of arrogance and ignorance about just how big the gulf between the "haves" and "have nots" in this country actually is!

There are a lot of things that need to change in little ole Ireland, but firstly, the Irish people need to get off their collective asses and say that enough is enough (again ref my post linked to above), and secondly that change needs to start where it will actually make a real difference (some good practical examples already in this thread - amen's for example).

We can all sit around and wax rhapsodically about ideal solutions to the problems we face, but the reality is that our "government" (which is after all made up of Irish people who EXCEL in trying to pass the buck) has made these decisions while we all sat back and let them!

As I said in that other thread, as a nation we Irish are too young, selfish and outright greedy to be let at the controls of a country, made all the worse by our dependence on foreign investment and the restrictions imposed by our European masters. Until THAT changes, until we "grow up" and start thinking of the good of the many, rather than our own little patch, things will NEVER change for the better in this backwater island.

Lesson 1: Maybe people should look at themselves and the decisions they've made in the last decade before they start looking for others to blame!

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

With all due respect to some of the keyboard economists here, I just have to step in if I may...

While I have made my feelings on the current situation very clear over here, I can only assume that the people who are calling for drastic welfare and benefits cuts have never tried to survive on them.

I was made redundant (from a public sector body I might add) through no fault of my own just before Christmas. I worked there for just over 4 years and got a wage that is approximately 5-10k LESS than the equivalent private sector position - I guess I was out the day they were handing out the "jobs for life", "gold-plated pensions" and "dramatically inflated salaries". :rolleyes:

[Side Note: The one thing FF have managed to do through this is to constantly shift the attention and blame away from those who are truely responsible for this current mess - this month it's the evil bankers, last month it was the public sector v private sector - and the Irish with goldfish-like attention spans just go along with whatever the 6.1 news (state-funded broadcaster and all!) tells them]

I've gone from a salary of roughly €2700 net per month to just under €970.
From that I've to pay my rent (€685), Gas (€300/€150pm on the last one due to the cold snap), ESB (€150/€75pm), fuel costs, car tax/insurance, car loan - and before it's claimed that a car is a non-essential, firstly I needed it for work, and secondly - have you tried using public transport outside of the capital? (if it exists at all!)- oh and I have to eat of course!

Then I'm treated like a child or an ex-con for daring to claim entitlements I've paid towards for years, not to mention the amount of redundant/duplicated paperwork that's required because we Irish don't do "joined up thinking" between Departments (how much does THAT waste, in both time and monetary terms), and the system is setup in such a way that getting back into work is made as difficult as possible (assuming you can find a job that is - there's plenty of those WPP slave labour schemes alright, but it already costs me enough to survive as it is!)

I don't have a mortgage thank god (unlike most of my countrymen I was immune to the peer/social pressure that said you've somehow failed if you don't own a house in the middle of nowhere with no facilities or infrastructure by the time you're 30 :rolleyes:), I don't go out much, I haven't been on holiday in about a decade, and I don't drive a 50k 10-D motor!

Surprisingly(!!) I still have problems meeting my bills since I was laid off, and I've spent every DAY since then searching for a new job (but as above many employers are now taking the piss entirely with requirements and conditions, or not hiring at all, the search goes on!), so while I certainly agree that there is room for massive abuse of the welfare system as it is, and this was highlighted on a recent Primetime, to tar everyone who's found themselves needing state support in the current economic climate (after year's of contributing to it) with this same brush is frankly ridiculous and insulting!

To say that people can somehow magically "make do" when those same wise men (and women) think about where they'll feck off to for 2 weeks this summer, is the height of arrogance and ignorance about just how big the gulf between the "haves" and "have nots" in this country actually is!

There are a lot of things that need to change in little ole Ireland, but firstly, the Irish people need to get off their collective asses and say that enough is enough (again ref my post linked to above), and secondly that change needs to start where it will actually make a real difference (some good practical examples already in this thread - amen's for example).

We can all sit around and wax rhapsodically about ideal solutions to the problems we face, but the reality is that our "government" (which is after all made up of Irish people who EXCEL in trying to pass the buck) has made these decisions while we all sat back and let them!

As I said in that other thread, as a nation we Irish are too young, selfish and outright greedy to be let at the controls of a country, made all the worse by our dependence on foreign investment and the restrictions imposed by our European masters. Until THAT changes, until we "grow up" and start thinking of the good of the many, rather than our own little patch, things will NEVER change for the better in this backwater island.

Lesson 1: Maybe people should look at themselves and the decisions they've made in the last decade before they start looking for others to blame!

So what should be cut or how would you suggest we start tackling the defecit? Seriously, we need to cut expenditure, so where would you could it?

I don't know your details but I presume you are a single man as your dole would indicate that? If so, and you are renting as you say, isn't 675 a lot to be paying for one person? A room in a shared house outside Dublin would cost a lot less, no? Have you really tried to reduce your expenditure?

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

So what should be cut or how would you suggest we start tackling the defecit? Seriously, we need to cut expenditure, so where would you could it?

Well just a few random ideas:

- Cut TD's salaries and benefits (they are after all there to serve the people, not themselves). Financial penalties to be imposed if they aren't in the Dail for x number of days - I thought they were getting there on this with the new clock in system.. until I read that they don't have to clock out?? :rolleyes:

- Unnecessary expensive Junket's everywhere by the same TD's/officials to be cut to a minimum

- Tenders to be reviewed by people who know what they're looking at (and in my last role I know this doesn't happen!) and to be awarded based on who can actually provide the required product/service at the best price, rather than nepotism or other such corruption. Said tenders also then to be filled on time and in budget, with penalties in place if not

- Massive EFFECTIVE reform in the public sector - get rid of the deadwood, and again there's a lot of it there. Link pay to performance. If someone isn't performing (regardless of the contract they hold), show them the door.

- Eliminate ALL unnecessary expenditure (foreign aid for one - charity begins at home folks!)

That's just a few, but the unfortunate reality is that all of this may be/is? already too late. The money wasted over the past 15 years, and now required to fund NAMA may be just enough to push this country over the edge.

Time will tell..

_Kaiser_

murphaph wrote: »

So what should be cut or how would you suggest we start tackling the defecit? Seriously, we need to cut expenditure, so where would you could it?

I don't know your details but I presume you are a single man as your dole would indicate that? If so, and you are renting as you say, isn't 675 a lot to be paying for one person? A room in a shared house outside Dublin would cost a lot less, no? Have you really tried to reduce your expenditure?

Just to take up some of your edits...

Without going into specifics, the rent situation is the least of my worries at the minute. The lease is up in 2 months and there's a good chance I'll have to move regardless as there may not be a house to stay in.

There's not much shared accomodation down here - this isn't Dublin where the rents are (still) ridiculously high in some places, or where space is a premium.
Also unlike Dublin, the difference in rent between a apartment and house is pretty minimal, and given that I am in my mid-30's, house-sharing like a student isn't a practical option.

As for my expenses, well I still have to eat I still need to be able to get around (and especially when I get another job as I doubt it'll be outside Dublin given that IT is centralised there), and I don't spend €50-100 on the piss every week so there's not much fat to trim there.

Part of this is that what's considered "essential" has changed over the last 30 years. Now you NEED a phone, you NEED a car (again, public transport outside Dublin - and often inside Dublin too! - doesn't cut it!) and you NEED internet access to have any chance of searching for a job.

murphaph

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well just a few random ideas:

- Cut TD's salaries and benefits (they are after all there to serve the people, not themselves). Financial penalties to be imposed if they aren't in the Dail for x number of days - I thought they were getting there on this with the new clock in system.. until I read that they don't have to clock out?? :rolleyes:

- Unnecessary expensive Junket's everywhere by the same TD's/officials to be cut to a minimum

- Tenders to be reviewed by people who know what they're looking at (and in my last role I know this doesn't happen!) and to be awarded based on who can actually provide the required product/service at the best price, rather than nepotism or other such corruption. Said tenders also then to be filled on time and in budget, with penalties in place if not

- Massive EFFECTIVE reform in the public sector - get rid of the deadwood, and again there's a lot of it there. Link pay to performance. If someone isn't performing (regardless of the contract they hold), show them the door.

- Eliminate ALL unnecessary expenditure (foreign aid for one - charity begins at home folks!)

That's just a few, but the unfortunate reality is that all of this may be/is? already too late. The money wasted over the past 15 years, and now required to fund NAMA may be just enough to push this country over the edge.

Time will tell..

Agree with all that except the foreign aid bit. Can't agree that a 1st world nation should give nothing to countries in poverty. If every country running a defecit did this, there would be no aid flowing at all to the third world and lots and lots of people would rapidly start starving to death (a lot worse than not being able to pay one's mortgage etc.)

ei.sdraob

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Well just a few random ideas:

- Cut TD's salaries and benefits (they are after all there to serve the people, not themselves). Financial penalties to be imposed if they aren't in the Dail for x number of days - I thought they were getting there on this with the new clock in system.. until I read that they don't have to clock out?? :rolleyes:

- Unnecessary expensive Junket's everywhere by the same TD's/officials to be cut to a minimum

- Tenders to be reviewed by people who know what they're looking at (and in my last role I know this doesn't happen!) and to be awarded based on who can actually provide the required product/service at the best price, rather than nepotism or other such corruption. Said tenders also then to be filled on time and in budget, with penalties in place if not

- Massive EFFECTIVE reform in the public sector - get rid of the deadwood, and again there's a lot of it there. Link pay to performance. If someone isn't performing (regardless of the contract they hold), show them the door.

- Eliminate ALL unnecessary expenditure (foreign aid for one - charity begins at home folks!)

That's just a few, but the unfortunate reality is that all of this may be/is? already too late. The money wasted over the past 15 years, and now required to fund NAMA may be just enough to push this country over the edge.

Time will tell..

how much will all of that save? any figures?? good points but your missing the big elephants in the room by pointing at the mice
do remember that this country will be spending between 5 and 10 billion a year, every year for next decade in just servicing debt (that's similar to a household spending a third of its income on rising mortgage repayments)

you went on a big long rant earlier in thread, if we had a welfare system like other states you wont be in such a jam now, in some countries your welfare/insurance pays out same amount as your salary for few months and then this amount is gradually reduced in steps over time, so there is no initial shock and incentive (as well as other help) over time to get a job again
did you ever consider availing of income protection insurance? put a side for a black day fund? no?? didnt think so, why plan for the future or bad day when the state can pick up the tab for you

oh and yes i had to live on bread and beans sharing small apts, it made me value education and hard work more
it also thought me that there's no such thing as free lunch, how to save and how to avoid debt

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